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Embraer Picks P&W For Re-engined E-Jet  
User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10331 times:

Not official but...

"United Technologies Corp. (UTX)’s Pratt & Whitney unit won an agreement to make engines for Embraer SA (EMBR3)’s revamped regional jets, beating incumbent supplier General Electric Co. (GE), three people with knowledge of the decision said.

Pratt & Whitney’s bid trumped proposals from GE and Rolls Royce Holdings Plc, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the details aren’t public yet. Embraer, the world’s fourth-largest planemaker, is due to announce its choice soon, one of the people said."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ngines-on-newest-embraer-jets.html



40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12528 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10321 times:

Great news for us PW "fans"!

I presume this is some form of the GTF?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10323 times:

That's great news for P&W. It looks like a lot of companies are banking on the GTF being a success, it will be interesting to see how/if GE and RR respond if the GTF meets or (looking likely) exceeds expectations.

User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1336 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10312 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):
it will be interesting to see how/if GE and RR respond

Hasn't RR bought a stake in the GTF program?


User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10275 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 3):
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):
it will be interesting to see how/if GE and RR respond

Hasn't RR bought a stake in the GTF program?

and GE just bought Avio who is a major GTF parts supplier

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...illion-to-secure-supply-chain.html


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13091 posts, RR: 100
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10097 times:
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The OP link is now a "404".  


I really hope this is true! Great news for Embraer and Pratt.

I wonder if it will be a new low spool for the E170. It could use a slightly de-rated MRJ engine... But a custom job might be fractionally lighter and would have better fuel burn (but only slightly).

The E-190/E-195 need slightly more thrust than the PW1200G is designed for. It would require a small amount of fan growth. The C-series engine is too much engine (high fuel burn) and thus an MRJ growth). By that I mean most likely a 2 stage LPC, but a larger fan to provide the needed thrust.

Details will be interesting. I propose this will be the PW1700G with the PW1800G saved for a future Boeing or Airbus program. Perhaps two engines (PW1600G and PW1700G).

Quoting queb (Thread starter):
"United Technologies Corp. (UTX)’s Pratt & Whitney unit won an agreement to make engines for Embraer SA (EMBR3)’s revamped regional jets

I hope that is true!   

Quoting Revelation (Reply 1):
Great news for us PW "fans"!

Yes!   

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 3):
Hasn't RR bought a stake in the GTF program?

And RR is fairly far along in developing the needed technology. I assume they will ramp up quickly.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):
it will be interesting to see how/if GE and RR respond if the GTF meets or (looking likely) exceeds expectations.

GE will have to respond for if the GTF exceeds then the C-series will sell better than current expectations. It would also benefit the A321 tremendously as there is high interest in expanding the range of the A321NEO. e.g., the new HA order (but which engine will they pick?). However, it is now 'too late' for GE for Embraer (if true). With the C-series and E-jets with Pratt, that 'turns the tables' on the CF-34. That engine becomes the next JT8D. (Great maintenance until the competition matures but a fuel burn penalty. I'm using the MD-80 vs. 733 analogy.)

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinefruitbat From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 550 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9875 times:

On the Embraer website:

http://www.embraer.com/en-US/Imprens...a-a-segunda-geracao-de-E-Jets.aspx

GE won't be happy with this, loss of incumbency must hurt!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
And RR is fairly far along in developing the needed technology. I assume they will ramp up quickly.

AFAIK RR won't be making any components for announced GTFs, and the partnership is for the A320 NEO GTF only...or am I missing the point?

Another endorsement of the GTF, and E-Jet vs C-Series will be an interesting battle!



Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9878 times:

Confirmation:

http://www.pw.utc.com/Press/Story/20130108-1605/2013/All%20Categories

http://www.embraer.com/en-US/Imprens...a-a-segunda-geracao-de-E-Jets.aspx

http://www.embraer.com/PublishingImages/press-releases/Second%20Generation%20E-Jet%20Conceptual%20Image.jpg


User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9860 times:

no more winglets, now raked wing tips

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6642 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9618 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 8):
no more winglets, now raked wing tips

Looks superb ! I hate huge vertical winglets.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4831 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9533 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
The E-190/E-195 need slightly more thrust than the PW1200G is designed for. It would require a small amount of fan growth. The C-series engine is too much engine (high fuel burn) and thus an MRJ growth). By that I mean most likely a 2 stage LPC, but a larger fan to provide the needed thrust.

Details will be interesting. I propose this will be the PW1700G with the PW1800G saved for a future Boeing or Airbus program. Perhaps two engines (PW1600G and PW1700G).

P&W is hewing closer to Embraer's aircraft model numbers.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...fans-new-wings-fly-by-wire-380821/

Quote:
"In a coup for engine maker Pratt & Whitney, the next version of the E-170 and E-190 family will be powered by the PW1700G and PW1900G geared turbofans, respectively, replacing General Electric CF34s on first-generation E-Jets, says Paolo Cesar Silva, president of Embraer commercial aviation.

[.....]

By integrating the 22,000lb-thrust PW1900G, the second-generation E-195 will have 10% more power than currently available on the CF34-10E. That allows Embraer to consider stretching the fuselage of the E-195 to contain more payload, or burning fuel at a lower thrust setting and prolong the life of the engine."



Slightly larger fan on the PW1900G.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9455 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 8):
no more winglets, now raked wing tips

Curious to see as how this will work out as boeing holds two patents for raked wing tips


User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9405 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 11):
Curious to see as how this will work out as boeing holds two patents for raked wing tips

Boeing & Embraer are now partners on different programs, maybe the partnership has been extended.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2629 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 8766 times:

Wow... this is a huge coup for the GTF!  Wow!

The E-jet "NEO" was a no-brainer and just a matter of time, but it was GE's to lose. I was really expecting the GE-EMB partnership to continue, and the Ejets to be the launch platform for the NG34, distinguishing themselves from GTF-powered offerings. But it seems EMB was not convinced, or perhaps the NG34 would be too late to market.

GE has gone from having the monopoly over the 70-120 RJ market to being kicked out of it completely. All new-generation RJ offerings are GTF powered, plus the Saturn-Snecma powered SSJ. GE's only remaining hope is on business jets and/or if BBD launches a CRJNEO. Oh yeah, and there's still the ARJ21...   

The E175 1700G will be derived from the MRJ 1200G...no surprises here. But the E19x 1900G will be derived from the larger CSeries 1500G... add to that the new wing and we can know almost for sure that a stretch is in the making, even if not yet officially announced.

I wonder what the E17x wing will look like, but my bet is on the E170 to disappear.


User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 619 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8632 times:

Hello,

What's striking is the fact that Embraer as chosen the very same powerplant as its 2 main competitors..

The E175 seems to have a hard time against the MRJ, the E175G2 will use a 1 ou 2 year younger PW1200G derivative
The E190/195 is have hard time agains the Cseries, The G2 will use a 3 year yougner PW1500 G derivative

So Embraer will be facing all new design with a half / new design with almost the same engines

I'm not sure it's a genious move
I'm not sure of the contrary
Sure It's a serious bet


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12528 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8338 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 13):
I was really expecting the GE-EMB partnership to continue, and the Ejets to be the launch platform for the NG34, distinguishing themselves from GTF-powered offerings. But it seems EMB was not convinced, or perhaps the NG34 would be too late to market.

To me it's evidence that the GTF is meeting or exceeding expectations.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinelostsound From Canada, joined May 2012, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8256 times:

Raked wing tips? Interesting. Those engines trump the fuselage of the Ejet haha.

Already one of the best selling regional jets, so these enhancements can only keep the series going strong.



"Our hands are full, our lives are not"
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13091 posts, RR: 100
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7812 times:
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Quoting fruitbat (Reply 6):
AFAIK RR won't be making any components for announced GTFs, and the partnership is for the A320 NEO GTF only...or am I missing the point?

You are correct, however RR has had low intensity GTF studies going on for a while per my 'rumor mill.'

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 6):
E-Jet vs C-Series will be an interesting battle!

Either way, Pratt wins a la CRJ-900 vs. E190 did for GE.   

Quoting queb (Reply 8):
no more winglets, now raked wing tips

Ok, I had the same thought as infiniti329:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 11):
as boeing holds two patents for raked wing tips

If Embraer goes forward, this implies optimizing for a slightly longer mission.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 10):
will be powered by the PW1700G and PW1900G geared turbofans,

But this doesn't say if it is a 2-stage LPC or 3-stage. Time will tell. At least I was right that Pratt would ave the PW1800G number for a later model... Otherwise I was off on the numbering. Cest la vie.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 13):
GE has gone from having the monopoly over the 70-120 RJ market to being kicked out of it completely.

That amazes me. Only the Superjet will compete with a non-Pratt (unless the CRJ-9 gains a 2nd life, which is unlikely).

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 14):
What's striking is the fact that Embraer as chosen the very same powerplant as its 2 main competitors..

No choice. Time to market for a LEAP derived engine would have Embraer pushed out of the market. It is also unlikely that a non-GTF could match the weight of a GTF on the smaller engines. GE's approach has been to increase the low spool turbine stages and that is tough without going to pressure ratios that do not make economic sense on such small engines.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
To me it's evidence that the GTF is meeting or exceeding expectations.

My rumor mill insists on that...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 619 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7734 times:

Quite Off topic,
But Lightsaber, if I understand, GTF will be lighter on MRJ/Cseries than Leap derived engine
And what about on the NEO ... from what I gather in public documents, the Leap, once lighter, is now +50 / +150 kg per engine vs initial assumptions .. and maybe vs the PW1100G
What do you think ?


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13091 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7560 times:
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Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 18):
But Lightsaber, if I understand, GTF will be lighter on MRJ/Cseries than Leap derived engine
Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 18):
And what about on the NEO ... from what I gather in public documents, the Leap, once lighter, is now +50 / +150 kg per engine vs initial assumptions .. and maybe vs the PW1100G
What do you think ?

I'm amazed with the LEAP weight on the NEO. With that many stages the only way CFM could have pulled it off is very advanced hollow blade technology.

However, GE is going with high pressure ratios. Stick with me for a bit of technical discussion... Leak area goes with compressor diameter (as blade tip gap heights are a technology limit) while flow area goes more with diameter squared. So larger engines have more flow path to leak area. Thus, they benefit more by pressure ratio as they have more efficient compressors and turbines. Larger engines also have lower blade surface area for flow area ratios which also improve compressor efficiency (less impact on the turbine). So for a smaller engine, it will be impossible to stick with the agressive pressure ratios.

This is one reason the smaller GTFs have a lower pressure ratio than the larger ones. The other is that larger engines burn more fuel and thus its worth more engineering dollars (hours) to optimize them. The GTF 'cost burden' has already been spent. In fact, the GTFs are incredibly simple engines. Elegant if I may say so.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1719 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6996 times:

Lightsaber,

Thanks for the explanations.

Please excuse a layman's question: would an intermeshing contrarotating turbine, like on the GE UDF of yesteryears, counter the problem of the leaks, or if that has nothing to do, there will still and always be leaks?

I hope it's not too far out of topic...


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4831 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6930 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 11):
two patents for raked wing tips

I wonder by how much those could increase the E-jet2G' ranges compared to the present?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17):
But this doesn't say if it is a 2-stage LPC or 3-stage.

Given that the E-Jets2G engine variants will be based on the MRJ's PW1200G and CSeries' PW1500G.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ead-in-70-120-seat-segment-380822/

Quote:
"P&W will adapt the PW1700G from the MRJ's PW1200G and the PW1900G from the Bombardier CSeries' PW1500G, Saia says.

The PW1700G will feature the same 142cm (56in)-diameter fan of the MRJ engine, and the PW1900G will share the 185cm-diameter fan with the CSeries engine."



.....doesn't it follow that their LPC stages could also be adopted for each version respectively (taking into consideration the flexibility for a HGW model)?



[Edited 2013-01-09 08:38:35]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6642 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6807 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 14):
So Embraer will be facing all new design with a half / new design with almost the same engines

I'm not sure it's a genious move
I'm not sure of the contrary
Sure It's a serious bet

At first I'm sure it will keep the line running, all the current operators of E-jets are likely to be interested. And the idea is probably to have the opportunity to be cheaper than the competitors if the need arise.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13091 posts, RR: 100
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6686 times:
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Quoting Aircellist (Reply 20):
would an intermeshing contrarotating turbine, like on the GE UDF of yesteryears, counter the problem of the leaks, or if that has nothing to do, there will still and always be leaks?

   That is a colder turbine intermesh. That design has *worse leaks*, but better efficiency due to the contra-rotation. (One impact overcomes the other.) Due to the sharp rise in turbine inlet temperatures, such designs are not durable enough for today's engines.

The blade tip clearences between the outer diameter of the blade and the inner diameter of the casing impact compressor and turbine efficiency. Those clearences in thousanths of an inch (just about 0.001") are a function of the vendor technology. It doesn't matter if it is a GE-90 or a PW1700G, that tip clearance is about the same. So there is backward internal leakage of air in a compressor that then must be recompressed (as it leaked backwards) and forward leakage in a turbine (which does no work turning the turbine). So a smaller engine will have worse component inefficiencies. That is just the reality. Thus the best economic pressure ratio drops.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 21):
.....doesn't it follow that their LPC stages will also be adopted for each version respectively?

It does, until one gets into the details. The PW1700G will need more thrust than the PW1200G. Thus, a higher pressure ratio. The opposite is true fo the PW1900G vs. the PW1500G. Thus the low pressure spools must be optimized for the new thrusts. Now, I expect the nacelles to gain the variable nozzles, or about 2% free thrust.

I do not know if the PW1700G can have the 2-stage LPC meet the increased airflow requirements. It might be possible to just put on a little largr diameter 2-stage compressor and compress that air enough to meet thrust requirements. With a variable fan nozzle, the low spool will be fractionally more efficient. The fan on this engine will require a non-subtle change to deal with greater tip Mach numbers too, but I know Pratt can do that as per the GP7200. It might also help that the gearbox ratio could be subtly changed to gain the increased thrust.

The PW1900G is easy with 3-stages. But perhaps the required thrust drop allows Pratt (and Embraer) to save the cost and weight of a 3-stage low pressure compressor. I suspect the PW1900G will stick with 3-stage (80%+ chance), but there is a small chance Pratt could economize.

With the PW1700G/PW1200G, I question the blade loading on the LPC and if there was enough margin left over from the PW1200G. It should be as you suggest. But the 'devil is in the details.'

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinePresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 661 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6611 times:

Quoting fruitbat (Reply 6):
AFAIK RR won't be making any components for announced GTFs, and the partnership is for the A320 NEO GTF only...or am I missing the point?

A few things happened.

1. P&W bought-out RR's stake in International Aero Engines. RR is still a supplier to IAE, but is not a partner in IAE.
2. P&W created a consortium for the A320neo engine. RR is not a member of this consortium.
3. P&W and RR entered into a new JV to jointly develop new engine options for future narrowbody applications. This is expected to be the go to market path for Boeing and Airbus 737 and A320 replacement aircraft, whenever those come out (late 2020s, I think is the expectation).


25 ytz : Wonder where this leaves the CSeries. Looks like the CS100 will have some serious competition now.
26 Dash9 : Not true, GE is supplying the 'soon-to-market ARJ21' (insert joke here). Beside, GE is also supplying the engine on the new BBD Global 7K/8K. Engine
27 Aircellist : Lightsaber: thanks for the explanations! One thousandth of an inch... That's close! Impressive.
28 Post contains images lightsaber : Yes, the ARJ21. Someone really needs to tell me what market it was designed for where it is superior to the competition. I've yet to determine one. G
29 Aviaponcho : Hello lightsaber The GTF fan should be fairly light also, spinning a lot (?) slower ... so much less energy in case of blade-off, so a lighter fan co
30 Revelation : The GTF gearing allows the fan to spin slow and the turbine to spin fast. I think the gear ratio is 3:1 or 4:1 but I couldn't find it in my quick web
31 ferpe : The big question is if this loss for GE is due to perceived inferior technology by Embraer or bad timing of their new offering. If it is the former GE
32 Post contains images fruitbat : [quote=ferpe,reply=31] How much of the gearbox secrets rests with AVIA and how much with PW? Me thinks the move by GE is not only to vertically integr
33 Post contains images ferpe : Absolutely, PW/RR should be contemplating what to do now. I can imagine the German part of RR or MTU could spring in, if there is anywhere they know
34 Post contains links queb : It's Avio not Avia "...to produce the P&W designed fan drive gear system for the Pure Power® PW1100G-JM engine. Under the agreement, Avio will a
35 EaglePower83 : So PW contracted to have Avio produce their fan drive gear system. GE bought Avio..... LOL..............that's messed up. Very shrewd, GE. But, I supp
36 Post contains links Aviaponcho : Ferpe Checking on Avia I find this old link http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_05_23_2012_p03-01-460944.xml So 2013 + 48 months + 12 months
37 Post contains images lightsaber : What amazes me is the LEAP matches (actually beats) the GTF weight. Pratt wasn't aggressive in other weight reduction as the GTF did the work. So GE
38 tjh8402 : Does GE have plans to expand below the Passport 20's category? The large cabin segment of the biz jet market GE is jumping into has been Rolls-Royce'
39 JoeCanuck : The passport engine could still end up on the CRJ's. It might be a fairly straight upgrade since they will be on the Global 7/8000's in the right pow
40 seabosdca : I know this is really an engine thread, but that rendering looks fantastic with the big fans. Looks like a baby A320neo. Will they have to extend the
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