EPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 3582 posts, RR: 36 Reply 3, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12554 times:
Quoting flood (Thread starter): Looks like LionAir is shopping for a few more planes
So with 239 B737's ordered (mostly 737-MAX) and most likely up to 220 A320-NEO's, they show a spectacular growth. The numbers by themselves are incredible. But good for all involved if this order is indeed finalized. .
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11704 posts, RR: 52 Reply 5, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12438 times:
Airbus has said nothing about any JT order in the 9 Jan. 2013 press release page. They only talk about the 5 X A-320NEOs and 5 X A-321NEOs for ME was signed today.
flood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1052 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12408 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2): I note you started the same thread back then....
Indeed I did. But all initial reports indicated they were looking to possibly purchase "only" additional 100 aircraft. I never anticipated such a potentially large order given the number of 737s they already have coming as well.
flood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1052 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12343 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5): Airbus has said nothing about any JT order in the 9 Jan. 2013 press release page. They only talk about the 5 X A-320NEOs and 5 X A-321NEOs for ME was signed today.
I indicated in the the title it was according to the report. It's not a firm order announced by Airbus and I don't believe they release their final 2012 until the 17th (?) of this month.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11704 posts, RR: 52 Reply 8, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12172 times:
Quoting wingman (Reply 4): I will go out on a limb and guarantee that Boeing did not win the 2012 orders race. Between this and the EK order they'll pip Boeing by just enough.
That limb is about to be cut off from under you. Neither this order, nor any EK order for A-380s are firm. EK is only "considering" ordering 30 more A-388s. They have not ordered them, yet.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26674 posts, RR: 83 Reply 9, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11949 times:
Quoting wingman (Reply 4): I will go out on a limb and guarantee that Boeing did not win the 2012 orders race. Between this and the EK order they'll pip Boeing by just enough.
Even if EK and Malindo Air placed those orders in 2012, it would still only be around half of what Airbus needed at the end of November to match, much less exceed, Boeing.
flood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1052 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11824 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 9): Even if EK and Malindo Air placed those orders in 2012, it would still only be around half of what Airbus needed at the end of November to match, much less exceed, Boeing.
Agree, it's completely unrealistic... Boeing has an insurmountable lead.
I do anticipate the Lion Air order to be firmed, however. But there too we don't know what the order would entail. With the 220 figure floating around, I could just as easily see 120 + 100 options in the works. For them to order another 200+ firm aircraft would be incredible, regardless of Malindo... in both a positive and negative sense.
rotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 372 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11395 times:
My arithmetic may slightly off but Airbus would need almost need to bag 600 planes to be tied with Boeing.
Back to topic though, with Boeing increasing their assembly rate and Airbuses keeping even, relatively, why would Lion Air jump ship? I doubt A needs to discount the NEO at all if it selling so well. Must be something else.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26674 posts, RR: 83 Reply 13, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11379 times:
Quoting rotating14 (Reply 12): Back to topic though, with Boeing increasing their assembly rate and Airbuses keeping even, relatively, why would Lion Air jump ship?
Airbus may have better availability for the neo than Boeing for the MAX (EIS is at least a year earlier, so that's some 400-500 extra deliveries) and/or Lion Air just wants to spread things between both OEMs.
rotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 372 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11357 times:
sxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1225 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11314 times:
I really wonder how Lion Air will finance all of these planes. No bank or lessor is willing to have such significant exposure to one customer. Even an airline as successful as Emirates has to work very hard to find enough financing.
migair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1272 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10875 times:
What I really wonder is if they will find place to "park" all this planes, Jakarta Airport and many other airport in the Area are very busy and i´m not sure if the infrastructure will develop as fast as Lion Air, Wings Air, Citilink, Air Asia and other are developing their networks and fleets....
Anyway, it´s very good news for Airbus and Lion Air.
airboe From San Marino, joined Jan 2011, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10808 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13): Airbus may have better availability for the neo than Boeing for the MAX (EIS is at least a year earlier, so that's some 400-500 extra deliveries) and/or Lion Air just wants to spread things between both OEMs
Further has it been reported, that the "sale and lease back rates" for the A321 is a lot more appealing than for the B739, - this could be another reason.
SKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1324 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10543 times:
Seems to be a common strategy.. Ordering from one manufacturer leads to over reliance.. Look at Ryanair now. They have pretty much burnt their bridges with Boeing by being such ****s and have no fall back. DY ordered a large number of NEOs as well as 738s.
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319), OSL-LHR (321), LHR-ARN (320), ARN-VXO (S34), VXO-BMA (ATP), ARN-LHR (763), LHR-CPH (320), C
Let us not forget that while Boeing HAS sold a huge amount of 737s this year, in terms of total orders, the MAX still trails the NEO by around 500 orders.
Also, did Airbus give Lionair a discount on this order? I know they have been chasing this order since last year?
Chiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 907 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (4 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 7683 times:
Quoting UA735WL (Reply 19): Let us not forget that while Boeing HAS sold a huge amount of 737s this year, in terms of total orders, the MAX still trails the NEO by around 500 orders.
Better make that 600 .. on the spot ..., not inculded this order.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26674 posts, RR: 83 Reply 22, posted (4 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 7006 times:
Quoting sxf24 (Reply 15): I really wonder how Lion Air will finance all of these planes.
Perhaps Airbus is offering support in that area and that helped them choose the neo instead of taking additional MAX.
Quoting airboe (Reply 17): Further has it been reported, that the "sale and lease back rates" for the A321 is a lot more appealing than for the B739, - this could be another reason.
The 737NG family has slightly higher average values and lease rates than the A320 family so one should expect sale and leaseback rates to be slightly higher for the 737-900ER.
Roseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8735 posts, RR: 52 Reply 23, posted (4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5868 times:
It amazes me that an airline with 93 planes can secure financing commitments for over 500 on order. That is a lot of capital. Unless Airbus is willing to take orders without any credit (which is possible), and small deposits, I just simply don't see where the money is coming from. It sounds like an incredibly risky investment to offer this much credit to a company that is only 13 years old and is committed to 500% expansion.
Maybe it is my American mind that makes me see that as unrealistic. We've seen investors jump into Southeast Asia before. I am just amazed creditors are willing to back both Air Asia and Lion Air's 500% expansion plans. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can reflect on if the market is actually growing at that rate or we will end up in a bubble with overcapacity.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
United885 From Germany, joined Apr 2011, 30 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5523 times:
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 23): It amazes me that an airline with 93 planes can secure financing commitments for over 500 on order.
That amazed me too. The question for me is, where should they be based in the futur? I don´t think that CGK can handle a fleet with the size of about 500 aircrafts...
I haven´t been everywhere, but it´s on my list.
25 Stitch: Air Asia is 16 years old and they have 100 planes in service and almost another 400 on order and yet I don't recall the same level of skepticism abou
26 tommy525: Perhaps the Airlines have a new strategy. Talk huge numbers and get the per unit for way less. The game then becomes whether they get delivered ! But
27 packsonflight: On top of that the leasing companies are out of the game.
28 mandala499: Rumors inside at the moment is that this Airbus order will not be for Malindo, Batik, nor Lion Air. More likely is that the orders will be for 3rd pa
29 Stitch: So Lion Air is getting into the leasing business?
30 Hamlet69: They're not the first airline to do so. And they won't be the last, either. . . Hamlet69
31 astuteman: If this is even remotely relevant in a contest between the NEO and the MAX I'd be amazed. Availability is almost certainly far more likely to be the
32 Stitch: Well I wrote that only to provide a contrasting opinion to the original statement by airboe. As to how relevant they are to the new models coming out
33 astuteman: In Airbus's defence, this is territory that is being well trodden by Boeing first........ Rgds
34 mandala499: One well known inside source in Lion Air gorup has said such... but it won't be Lion Air itself, but a company by Lion Air's CEO. Several other sourc
35 Lutfi: Yep, Lion Air group has an in house leasing firm based in Singapore, so far though have only been leasing to themselves
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