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Where? (UA Caravelle Over France?)  
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6902 posts, RR: 7
Posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8257 times:

Guess that must be a French town down there-- which one?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/n303wr/3377976438/sizes/o

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecontrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1834 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8051 times:

Drop the "o" at the end of the URL and it'll open.

As for where it is, ?



Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7705 times:

For me it worked with the o.

There are 36 000 communes in France, most are small like that, so it's not gonna be easy to identify !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5158 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7618 times:

This is a curious aircraft, as F-WJAP never actually flew for United. It was however given a "fake" United registration of N2001U for the Paris Airshow of 1961, then went on to fly for Cruzeiro.


Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1414 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7279 times:
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I don't Know if That particular airplane flew for United But UAL did buy 28 Sud Caravelle 1, airframes
I have pictures in the United Airlines coffee table Pictorial I have and there are 48X60" pictures of Caravelle's adorning the walls of United's cafeteria in Building 15 At SFO international.
Many of those pictures have MULTIPLE offers on them for sale but I doubt they'll ever entertain another sale like they did during Bankruptcy. The UAL caravelle's later saw service with the forerunner of Airborne Express (ABF inc.) I've actually put a wrench on one in 1982 that had a fuel leak passing through OMA on the freighter Ramp. They were maintained in San Jose Ca. .


User currently offlineamerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3996 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7247 times:
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Quoting timz (Thread starter):
Guess that must be a French town down there-- which one?

Caravelles used to be built in Toulouse, a major city in the South West of France, also a major aerospace center. This airplane must have been in flight testing before being delivered to United, I don't know where exactly in France it is but I would say in the South West, not far from the Atlantic Pyrenees.
At that time United was not flying to Europe at all. Right? So it must have been a test flight around Toulouse before delivery to the customer.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5158 posts, RR: 43
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7018 times:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 4):
I don't Know if That particular airplane flew for United

It didn't.

That's what I find so ironic, as F-WJAP is probably one of the most common "United Caravelles" photographed. It was the prototype VI-R. After its time in Brasil, that aircraft did find its way to the US flying for Airborne Express, so it may well have been the one you encountered!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6908 times:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 4):

I don't Know if That particular airplane flew for United But UAL did buy 28 Sud Caravelle 1, airframes
I have pictures in the United Airlines coffee table Pictorial I have and there are 48X60" pictures of Caravelle's adorning the walls of United's cafeteria in Building 15 At SFO international.
Many of those pictures have MULTIPLE offers on them for sale but I doubt they'll ever entertain another sale like they did during Bankruptcy. The UAL caravelle's later saw service with the forerunner of Airborne Express (ABF inc.) I've actually put a wrench on one in 1982 that had a fuel leak passing through OMA on the freighter Ramp. They were maintained in San Jose Ca. .

United bought 20, not 28 Caravelle VIR's. Their registration numbers were N1001U-N1020U. They did not have the raised antenna bump on the top of the fuselage, and had larger cockpit windows that the Caravelle III's built for Air France and others. United sold off seven of the Caravelles to other buyers but sold the last 13 in a bulk sale to Sterling. There were parked at the Tech Center ramp at Stapleton before sale. There was a big article in the Denver Post about the sale at the time, which I remember as I was a student at CU in Boulder. Some of those aircraft did indeed come back to the US and were with Airborne Express including one that was donated to a museum at BDL and was destroyed by a tornado. The Caravelles entered service in June or July of 1961 and were gone by the end of 1970. They operated on many routes East of Omaha, including many former Capital routes. Except at the very beginning of service when the flew into IDL, all NYC operations were at EWR, and they were the first jet aircraft to operate scheduled service a EWR. They also brought jet service to some smaller cities like MOB, DSM. There were configured in an all first class 2-2 cabin with 16 rows for a total of 64 seats. The cabin width was similar to the DC-9, and the cabin was about the same size as the DC-9-10.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6737 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 7):
The Caravelles entered service in June or July of 1961 and were gone by the end of 1970. They operated on many routes East of Omaha, including many former Capital routes. Except at the very beginning of service when the flew into IDL, all NYC operations were at EWR, and they were the first jet aircraft to operate scheduled service a EWR. They also brought jet service to some smaller cities like MOB, DSM. There were configured in an all first class 2-2 cabin with 16 rows for a total of 64 seats. The cabin width was similar to the DC-9, and the cabin was about the same size as the DC-9-10.

They were also used for a while on UA's "Executive" flights between Chicago and New York. Those flights were restricted to men only (except the "stewardesses"). UA Caravelle photo below from that product. Even pipes and cigars permitted on those flights. The Caravelle's triangular windows were unusual.
http://blog.zieglerc.net/post/217033...aboard-are-a-couple-of-unobtrusive




Did UA Caravelles have passenger oxygen masks? AF Caravelle IIIs did not if memory correct.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6677 times:

Quoting american 767 (Reply 5):
At that time United was not flying to Europe at all. Right? So it must have been a test flight around Toulouse before delivery to the customer.

If they had been flying 'to Europe' I'm fairly confident they wouldn't have been doing it in Caravelles.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5158 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6636 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
Did UA Caravelles have passenger oxygen masks? AF Caravelle IIIs did not if memory correct.

I had to dig into my safety card collection to confirm, but yes you are right, AF Caravelle IIIs did not have passenger oxygen masks, however the UA Caravelles did.

On the UA Caravelles, the masks were located in the seat backs, much like the Palomar DC-8s!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 412 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6618 times:

If memory serves me correct, a UA Caravelle remains in PAX configuration in a museum in AZ, correct? or is that one a cargo unit painted in faded antiquated Friendship livery?? I believe its also complete, intact, but needs much TLC.


Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 2058 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6582 times:

Quoting United727 (Reply 11):
If memory serves me correct, a UA Caravelle remains in PAX configuration in a museum in AZ, correct?

Are you referring to that one ?


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Photo © Mathias Henig




I wish I was a glow worm.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6561 times:

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 12):
Quoting United727 (Reply 11):
If memory serves me correct, a UA Caravelle remains in PAX configuration in a museum in AZ, correct?

Are you referring to that one ?

That was UA's first Caravelle, with UA from 1961 to 1971.


User currently offlineCairnterriAIR From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6529 times:

The Caravelle at the New England Air Museum at BDL is alive and well....was not destroyed in the tornado of 1979. I think they received the plane well after the storm took place.

User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 412 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6467 times:

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Reply 14):
The Caravelle at the New England Air Museum at BDL is alive and well.

I disagree...that ship was torn apart as SCRAP a couple years ago...Do you have any recent pictures? That plane and the ONLY potentially flyable Caravelle left in the US (also in AZ) were both destroyed/scrapped the same year...I believe 2010.

And, Yes, that is the plane at Pima...Thanks   Although I thought I reme,bered it painted in Friendship colours...humm. Still has a set of old engines hanging on it too...Oh, how i wish.....LOL  



Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlineCairnterriAIR From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6419 times:

Ugh....I had not been to the museum at BDL for a few years.....and indeed the plane is gone. Sad that nobody rescued the old bird.

User currently offlineamerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3996 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6286 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
If they had been flying 'to Europe' I'm fairly confident they wouldn't have been doing it in Caravelles.

Of course they would not fly TATL on Caravelles, but maybe they would be flying intra European flights with Caravelles if they had intra Europe flights then.



Ben Soriano
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6277 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
They were also used for a while on UA's "Executive" flights between Chicago and New York. Those flights were restricted to men only (except the "stewardesses"). UA Caravelle photo below from that product. Even pipes and cigars permitted on those flights. The Caravelle's triangular windows were unusual.

The Caravelle was used on the Executive Men Only Extra Fare flights beginning in July of 1961. At first, there was flight from ORD to IDL and one to EWR, all departing at 500p. But the IDL flight was gone by mid 1962, and only the EWR flight remained. The Caravelle continued to operate these flights until they were discontinued in 1970. No other jet aircraft was ever used and the CVL was the only UA jet ever operated with an all First Class cabin. In addition to the Executive flights, UA operated several other frequencies on the ORD-EWR route. My first Caravelle flight was in November 1963, the Sunday before the JFK assassination, from ORD to EWR. Before the Caravelle, the Executive flights were operated between MDW and LGA with DC-6B equipment, and there was also an Executive DC-6B flight between LAX and SFO, again all 500p departures in each direction.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5158 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6006 times:

Quoting american 767 (Reply 17):
Of course they would not fly TATL on Caravelles, but maybe they would be flying intra European flights with Caravelles if they had intra Europe flights then.

It's hard to imagine, but when United flew the Caravelles, they did not fly to Europe at all. In fact, other than Canada, United was a domestic only carrier. (But still one of the largest airlines on the earth!)



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently onlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 888 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5985 times:
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I got to fly on a United Caravelle between ORD and SBN. It was SBN's first scheduled jet service.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5950 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 19):
Quoting american 767 (Reply 17):
Of course they would not fly TATL on Caravelles, but maybe they would be flying intra European flights with Caravelles if they had intra Europe flights then.

It's hard to imagine, but when United flew the Caravelles, they did not fly to Europe at all. In fact, other than Canada, United was a domestic only carrier. (But still one of the largest airlines on the earth!)

For most of their years of Caravelle service their only "international" route was SEA-YVR (110 nm). They got rights ORD-YYZ sometime in the late 1960s, and those remained their only non-US routes for many more years. As you say, they were still the largest airline in the 'free world" (meaning except Aeroflot) in number of passengers..


User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1735 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5923 times:

Well... Two rivers merging, main river flowing to the northwest and railway station on the southwest bank (kinda guessing from the sun), quite a small village, very gentle hills... How far from Toulouse would they go for such photo ops?

... Does not look like places I know along the Tarn.


User currently offlinebrushpilot From France, joined Mar 2010, 85 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5696 times:

It's more likely the french " pays basque " near Orthez, the river's name is Gave de Pau.

User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1735 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5428 times:

... Does not look like Orthez, though, and looking through google maps I can't find two confluent rivers that would fit the bill... I suppose the village would have grown quite a bit...

I had thought of the Adour, not of the Gave de Pau. That looks like a quite small river, like maybe the Aveyron, but in much more open country than the Gorges...


25 milesrich : There was one trip a day, ORD-SBN-FWA-EWR, on the Caravelle, before the demise of the Rust Belt. Prior to the Caravelle operating this trip, (the FWA
26 n729pa : Whilst you don't know what time of day it was taken, there are some shadows from the trees in the fields on the river which will help give a rough ide
27 breiz : The bright light on the Caravelle and on the buildings, together with long shadows, make me guess that it is late afternoon. The river and the railway
28 Seat55A : Saint-Girons. The railway seems to have gone, which made it much harder to find.
29 Rhodylee : I think you've got it Seat55A - nice work !
30 type-rated : In Feb of 1974 there was still one Caravelle at Stapleton. It was sitting out on the ramp between the Stapleton terminal and the Frontier hangar. It
31 KL5147 : WOW .... great job Seat55A!
32 avion660 : Great job! and thanks to the others for talking through their working/ strategy as well .. I learned a few things there too
33 breiz : Congratulations! Nice detective work.
34 timz : I'll put a comment on the Flickr pic-- who gets the credit for the ID?
35 Seat55A : Credit a.net community. I was the one bored or compulsive enough to keep at it but others provided the essential clues.
36 zippyjet : As a kid I remember seeing UA Caravelles at BWI. UA, like National, and DL shared what was then the main concourse at BWI along with Allegheny and No
37 Post contains images zippyjet : Interesting! Because looking at Caravelle Cabin pictures the overhead PSU's took a page from the early Boeing Jets. Pods suspended from the ceiling w
38 milesrich : UA BAL/BWI CVL operations were probably to YIP/DTW, CLE, and PIT, and possible MKE. Never ORD, or JFK. I also believe they may operated on the BAL-CMH
39 milesrich : They were super quiet inside, but I never sat in the back of the cabin.. When the CVL's were in service, there was usually one if not always at Stapl
40 Post contains images longhauler : Yes, they look very much like the early Boeing PSUs. However they are a lot shorter, and if you look closer you will see no oxygen mask doors, like i
41 Viscount724 : Checked a few UA timetables during their period of Caravelle service. Flight routings as follows for Caravelles serving BAL (BWI's code then): August
42 zippyjet : Thank you for the info. How can a jet have no O2 masks? What would happen to those passengers if they were flying Air Toulouse or Sterling when O2 wa
43 longhauler : Also note that some versions of the Trident, and the BAC-111 also did not have passenger oxygen masks. I believe at the time, it was a measure of how
44 zippyjet : So, did those have the pull down shades like on today's aircraft or did they have no window covering?
45 Post contains links and images longhauler : I have only flown on a Caravelle III, (AF and SR), VI-R (UA) and a 12 of IT. I don't recall curtains on the 12, but there were on the III and the VI-
46 zippyjet : LH: thank you. That makes sense. When looking at the restored Connies and the restored Eastern DC7 even the PSU's and overhead shelves (before the bin
47 Post contains links and images longhauler : The Viscount and Vanguard also had pull down shades. The very early Viscount's had theirs mounted into the wall outside the window. You can see them
48 milesrich : While the aircraft was "designed" before the Comet crashes of 1954, the same can be said for the Boeing 367-80. The Caravelle prototype flew a year a
49 longhauler : Yes, I recall reading that the 367-80, and thus the B707 and B717 had designed into it, safety measures to stop what happened to the Comet before the
50 maxpower1954 : I couldn't agree with you more longhauler. There were concerns on both sides of the Atlantic about aspects of the Comet's design as early as 1950. Is
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