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Where? (UA Caravelle Over France?)  
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 6835 posts, RR: 6
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7533 times:

Guess that must be a French town down there-- which one?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/n303wr/3377976438/sizes/o

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecontrails From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7327 times:

Drop the "o" at the end of the URL and it'll open.

As for where it is, ?



Flying Colors Forever!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6654 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6981 times:

For me it worked with the o.

There are 36 000 communes in France, most are small like that, so it's not gonna be easy to identify !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4982 posts, RR: 42
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6893 times:

This is a curious aircraft, as F-WJAP never actually flew for United. It was however given a "fake" United registration of N2001U for the Paris Airshow of 1961, then went on to fly for Cruzeiro.


Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1212 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6554 times:
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I don't Know if That particular airplane flew for United But UAL did buy 28 Sud Caravelle 1, airframes
I have pictures in the United Airlines coffee table Pictorial I have and there are 48X60" pictures of Caravelle's adorning the walls of United's cafeteria in Building 15 At SFO international.
Many of those pictures have MULTIPLE offers on them for sale but I doubt they'll ever entertain another sale like they did during Bankruptcy. The UAL caravelle's later saw service with the forerunner of Airborne Express (ABF inc.) I've actually put a wrench on one in 1982 that had a fuel leak passing through OMA on the freighter Ramp. They were maintained in San Jose Ca. .


User currently offlineamerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3791 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6522 times:
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Quoting timz (Thread starter):
Guess that must be a French town down there-- which one?

Caravelles used to be built in Toulouse, a major city in the South West of France, also a major aerospace center. This airplane must have been in flight testing before being delivered to United, I don't know where exactly in France it is but I would say in the South West, not far from the Atlantic Pyrenees.
At that time United was not flying to Europe at all. Right? So it must have been a test flight around Toulouse before delivery to the customer.

Ben Soriano



Ben Soriano
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4982 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6293 times:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 4):
I don't Know if That particular airplane flew for United

It didn't.

That's what I find so ironic, as F-WJAP is probably one of the most common "United Caravelles" photographed. It was the prototype VI-R. After its time in Brasil, that aircraft did find its way to the US flying for Airborne Express, so it may well have been the one you encountered!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2000 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6184 times:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 4):

I don't Know if That particular airplane flew for United But UAL did buy 28 Sud Caravelle 1, airframes
I have pictures in the United Airlines coffee table Pictorial I have and there are 48X60" pictures of Caravelle's adorning the walls of United's cafeteria in Building 15 At SFO international.
Many of those pictures have MULTIPLE offers on them for sale but I doubt they'll ever entertain another sale like they did during Bankruptcy. The UAL caravelle's later saw service with the forerunner of Airborne Express (ABF inc.) I've actually put a wrench on one in 1982 that had a fuel leak passing through OMA on the freighter Ramp. They were maintained in San Jose Ca. .

United bought 20, not 28 Caravelle VIR's. Their registration numbers were N1001U-N1020U. They did not have the raised antenna bump on the top of the fuselage, and had larger cockpit windows that the Caravelle III's built for Air France and others. United sold off seven of the Caravelles to other buyers but sold the last 13 in a bulk sale to Sterling. There were parked at the Tech Center ramp at Stapleton before sale. There was a big article in the Denver Post about the sale at the time, which I remember as I was a student at CU in Boulder. Some of those aircraft did indeed come back to the US and were with Airborne Express including one that was donated to a museum at BDL and was destroyed by a tornado. The Caravelles entered service in June or July of 1961 and were gone by the end of 1970. They operated on many routes East of Omaha, including many former Capital routes. Except at the very beginning of service when the flew into IDL, all NYC operations were at EWR, and they were the first jet aircraft to operate scheduled service a EWR. They also brought jet service to some smaller cities like MOB, DSM. There were configured in an all first class 2-2 cabin with 16 rows for a total of 64 seats. The cabin width was similar to the DC-9, and the cabin was about the same size as the DC-9-10.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6009 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 7):
The Caravelles entered service in June or July of 1961 and were gone by the end of 1970. They operated on many routes East of Omaha, including many former Capital routes. Except at the very beginning of service when the flew into IDL, all NYC operations were at EWR, and they were the first jet aircraft to operate scheduled service a EWR. They also brought jet service to some smaller cities like MOB, DSM. There were configured in an all first class 2-2 cabin with 16 rows for a total of 64 seats. The cabin width was similar to the DC-9, and the cabin was about the same size as the DC-9-10.

They were also used for a while on UA's "Executive" flights between Chicago and New York. Those flights were restricted to men only (except the "stewardesses"). UA Caravelle photo below from that product. Even pipes and cigars permitted on those flights. The Caravelle's triangular windows were unusual.
http://blog.zieglerc.net/post/217033...aboard-are-a-couple-of-unobtrusive




Did UA Caravelles have passenger oxygen masks? AF Caravelle IIIs did not if memory correct.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5953 times:
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Quoting american 767 (Reply 5):
At that time United was not flying to Europe at all. Right? So it must have been a test flight around Toulouse before delivery to the customer.

If they had been flying 'to Europe' I'm fairly confident they wouldn't have been doing it in Caravelles.



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User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4982 posts, RR: 42
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5911 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
Did UA Caravelles have passenger oxygen masks? AF Caravelle IIIs did not if memory correct.

I had to dig into my safety card collection to confirm, but yes you are right, AF Caravelle IIIs did not have passenger oxygen masks, however the UA Caravelles did.

On the UA Caravelles, the masks were located in the seat backs, much like the Palomar DC-8s!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 401 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5894 times:

If memory serves me correct, a UA Caravelle remains in PAX configuration in a museum in AZ, correct? or is that one a cargo unit painted in faded antiquated Friendship livery?? I believe its also complete, intact, but needs much TLC.


Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1785 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5857 times:

Quoting United727 (Reply 11):
If memory serves me correct, a UA Caravelle remains in PAX configuration in a museum in AZ, correct?

Are you referring to that one ?


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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5836 times:

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 12):
Quoting United727 (Reply 11):
If memory serves me correct, a UA Caravelle remains in PAX configuration in a museum in AZ, correct?

Are you referring to that one ?

That was UA's first Caravelle, with UA from 1961 to 1971.


User currently offlineCairnterriAIR From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 404 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5805 times:

The Caravelle at the New England Air Museum at BDL is alive and well....was not destroyed in the tornado of 1979. I think they received the plane well after the storm took place.

User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 401 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5742 times:

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Reply 14):
The Caravelle at the New England Air Museum at BDL is alive and well.

I disagree...that ship was torn apart as SCRAP a couple years ago...Do you have any recent pictures? That plane and the ONLY potentially flyable Caravelle left in the US (also in AZ) were both destroyed/scrapped the same year...I believe 2010.

And, Yes, that is the plane at Pima...Thanks   Although I thought I reme,bered it painted in Friendship colours...humm. Still has a set of old engines hanging on it too...Oh, how i wish.....LOL  



Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlineCairnterriAIR From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 404 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5695 times:

Ugh....I had not been to the museum at BDL for a few years.....and indeed the plane is gone. Sad that nobody rescued the old bird.

User currently offlineamerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3791 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5561 times:
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Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
If they had been flying 'to Europe' I'm fairly confident they wouldn't have been doing it in Caravelles.

Of course they would not fly TATL on Caravelles, but maybe they would be flying intra European flights with Caravelles if they had intra Europe flights then.



Ben Soriano
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2000 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5553 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
They were also used for a while on UA's "Executive" flights between Chicago and New York. Those flights were restricted to men only (except the "stewardesses"). UA Caravelle photo below from that product. Even pipes and cigars permitted on those flights. The Caravelle's triangular windows were unusual.

The Caravelle was used on the Executive Men Only Extra Fare flights beginning in July of 1961. At first, there was flight from ORD to IDL and one to EWR, all departing at 500p. But the IDL flight was gone by mid 1962, and only the EWR flight remained. The Caravelle continued to operate these flights until they were discontinued in 1970. No other jet aircraft was ever used and the CVL was the only UA jet ever operated with an all First Class cabin. In addition to the Executive flights, UA operated several other frequencies on the ORD-EWR route. My first Caravelle flight was in November 1963, the Sunday before the JFK assassination, from ORD to EWR. Before the Caravelle, the Executive flights were operated between MDW and LGA with DC-6B equipment, and there was also an Executive DC-6B flight between LAX and SFO, again all 500p departures in each direction.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4982 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

Quoting american 767 (Reply 17):
Of course they would not fly TATL on Caravelles, but maybe they would be flying intra European flights with Caravelles if they had intra Europe flights then.

It's hard to imagine, but when United flew the Caravelles, they did not fly to Europe at all. In fact, other than Canada, United was a domestic only carrier. (But still one of the largest airlines on the earth!)



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 868 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5260 times:
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I got to fly on a United Caravelle between ORD and SBN. It was SBN's first scheduled jet service.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5225 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 19):
Quoting american 767 (Reply 17):
Of course they would not fly TATL on Caravelles, but maybe they would be flying intra European flights with Caravelles if they had intra Europe flights then.

It's hard to imagine, but when United flew the Caravelles, they did not fly to Europe at all. In fact, other than Canada, United was a domestic only carrier. (But still one of the largest airlines on the earth!)

For most of their years of Caravelle service their only "international" route was SEA-YVR (110 nm). They got rights ORD-YYZ sometime in the late 1960s, and those remained their only non-US routes for many more years. As you say, they were still the largest airline in the 'free world" (meaning except Aeroflot) in number of passengers..


User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1719 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5199 times:

Well... Two rivers merging, main river flowing to the northwest and railway station on the southwest bank (kinda guessing from the sun), quite a small village, very gentle hills... How far from Toulouse would they go for such photo ops?

... Does not look like places I know along the Tarn.


User currently offlinebrushpilot From France, joined Mar 2010, 85 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4972 times:

It's more likely the french " pays basque " near Orthez, the river's name is Gave de Pau.

User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1719 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

... Does not look like Orthez, though, and looking through google maps I can't find two confluent rivers that would fit the bill... I suppose the village would have grown quite a bit...

I had thought of the Adour, not of the Gave de Pau. That looks like a quite small river, like maybe the Aveyron, but in much more open country than the Gorges...


User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2000 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4697 times:

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 20):
I got to fly on a United Caravelle between ORD and SBN. It was SBN's first scheduled jet service.

There was one trip a day, ORD-SBN-FWA-EWR, on the Caravelle, before the demise of the Rust Belt. Prior to the Caravelle operating this trip, (the FWA-EWR nonstop), it was flown with the DC-6B. I believe this Caravelle route hung on until the entire fleet was retired. It was FWA's first jet service too, and these two cities were some of the last,if not the last, east of Chicago that were not former Capital cities to see the B-737-222 during the Apr-Oct 1968 period when the DC-6's were pulled from service except west of SLC, where they were pulled the week before Thanksgiving except the one trip between SFO and SLC via EKO and ELY that lasted until 2-28-70.


User currently offlinen729pa From UK - England, joined Jan 2011, 414 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4436 times:

Whilst you don't know what time of day it was taken, there are some shadows from the trees in the fields on the river which will help give a rough idea of orientation. There's what looks like a football (soccer) ground, it doesn't look like a rugby ground on account of the lack of posts (unless it's summer and they're taken down) but rugby is after all very popular especially in the South of France. There's the running track, it's possible they may still be there, all be it a modern replacement. Looks like several hours looking at google satelite maps, then you can't be sure you'll find it. Best of luck.

One silly question perhaps, have you tried asking the Flickr account holder? Just in case they know.


User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4321 times:

The bright light on the Caravelle and on the buildings, together with long shadows, make me guess that it is late afternoon.
The river and the railway track should therefore be orientated North-South roughly.
The style of the houses and of the church does not look very South-Western. And the fields, rather flat, look more like what may be found in the center of France, between Paris and the Massif Central.
The Caravelle was maybe pictured out of Le Bourget, but over the countryside more South.
I have also looked at satellite pictures, not Google Earth but the French counterpart (Géoportail), without success.


User currently offlineSeat55A From New Zealand, joined Jan 2013, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

Saint-Girons.

The railway seems to have gone, which made it much harder to find.


User currently offlineRhodylee From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 85 posts, RR: 3
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4049 times:

I think you've got it Seat55A - nice work !

User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 5033 posts, RR: 19
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3994 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 7):
United sold off seven of the Caravelles to other buyers but sold the last 13 in a bulk sale to Sterling. There were parked at the Tech Center ramp at Stapleton before sale.

In Feb of 1974 there was still one Caravelle at Stapleton. It was sitting out on the ramp between the Stapleton terminal and the Frontier hangar. It was in full UA colors. Since I was there at DEN-TK for some training we got to go inside the Caravelle. I remember the overhead door on the L1 and all the vacuum tube radio stacks behind the flight deck. I wondered whatever happened to that aircraft.

How noisy was a Caravelle cabin during flight? I remember they were really loud on the outside as I remember them coming in for a landing at ORD when they were in use.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineKL5147 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2005, 327 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3981 times:

Quoting Seat55A (Reply 28):
Saint-Girons.

WOW .... great job Seat55A!



"The world is just a click away!"
User currently offlineavion660 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3926 times:

Great job! and thanks to the others for talking through their working/ strategy as well .. I learned a few things there too

User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3841 times:

Quoting Seat55A (Reply 28):
Saint-Girons.

Congratulations!
Nice detective work.


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 6835 posts, RR: 6
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3732 times:

Quoting Seat55A (Reply 28):
Saint-Girons

I'll put a comment on the Flickr pic-- who gets the credit for the ID?


User currently offlineSeat55A From New Zealand, joined Jan 2013, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3697 times:

Credit a.net community. I was the one bored or compulsive enough to keep at it but others provided the essential clues.

User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3616 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):

As a kid I remember seeing UA Caravelles at BWI. UA, like National, and DL shared what was then the main concourse at BWI along with Allegheny and Northeast and of course Eastern. I swear, all three times we flew home to what was then BAL now BWI home from MIA on Eastern we always got the gate next to a UA Caravelle. Back in those days Jetways were just coming into their own at BWI gradually phasing out Hard Stands (boarding steps). This was August 1966, 1968 and 1970. So that Caravelle was probably one of the last of the bunch at least into BWI. I'm almost 100% certain the Caravelles were at hard stand gates at least 1966 and 1968. Our 1966 flight was a 720 so coach that was us got the aft airstairs hard stand first class as in MIA got the jetway at the front of the A/C. But interestingly I specifically remember seeing the Caravelles from the starboard side of our plane. We always seemed to get the starboard side seats. My dad got C (aisle) on port side, my mom got D which was aisle, I stuck my little sister in the middle seat and I got my coveted F window seat. And again Eastern's gates in what was then the main concourse then labeled B was still the 1951 original terminal. So the Caravelle was parked at a gate (hard stand) farther out away from ticketing and baggage. That section was tacked on the concourse prbably 1959 or 1960 because that was the "jet" gates. Again the UA Caravelle was a hardstand gate though there were jetways; these jetways along with the few added to the 1951 pier were 1965 or 1966 vintage. Go figure. UA DC-8, 720 and their other jets except the Caravelle got the jetways when available at BWI.
Does anyone know what routes were flown in and out of BWI on UA Caravelles? I'm guessing ORD or maybe JFK.



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User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3588 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
On the UA Caravelles, the masks were located in the seat backs, much like the Palomar DC-8s!

Interesting! Because looking at Caravelle Cabin pictures the overhead PSU's took a page from the early Boeing Jets. Pods suspended from the ceiling with the gaspers and lights and they looked thick enough to house the O2 masks.


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User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2000 posts, RR: 6
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3454 times:

UA BAL/BWI CVL operations were probably to YIP/DTW, CLE, and PIT, and possible MKE. Never ORD, or JFK. I also believe they may operated on the BAL-CMH-DAY-ORD route. The longer nonstops from ORD were to JFK for a short period of time, and gone after 1962, EWR, BDL, and PHL.

User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2000 posts, RR: 6
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3450 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 30):
In Feb of 1974 there was still one Caravelle at Stapleton. It was sitting out on the ramp between the Stapleton terminal and the Frontier hangar. It was in full UA colors. Since I was there at DEN-TK for some training we got to go inside the Caravelle. I remember the overhead door on the L1 and all the vacuum tube radio stacks behind the flight deck. I wondered whatever happened to that aircraft.

How noisy was a Caravelle cabin during flight? I remember they were really loud on the outside as I remember them coming in for a landing at ORD when they were in use.

They were super quiet inside, but I never sat in the back of the cabin.. When the CVL's were in service, there was usually one if not always at Stapleton for crew training.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4982 posts, RR: 42
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3422 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 37):
Interesting! Because looking at Caravelle Cabin pictures the overhead PSU's took a page from the early Boeing Jets. Pods suspended from the ceiling with the gaspers and lights and they looked thick enough to house the O2 masks.

Yes, they look very much like the early Boeing PSUs. However they are a lot shorter, and if you look closer you will see no oxygen mask doors, like in the Boeing PSUs. There is a reason for that, both the Air Toulouse and Sterling Caravelles we not equipped with passenger oxygen masks.

In fact looking through my safety card collection (I have over 3000, yes it IS an obsession), I can only find the United Caravelles with passenger oxygen masks. I have attached the rear side of the United safety card to show you how the masks were installed.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25311 posts, RR: 22
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days ago) and read 3319 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 36):
Does anyone know what routes were flown in and out of BWI on UA Caravelles? I'm guessing ORD or maybe JFK.

Checked a few UA timetables during their period of Caravelle service. Flight routings as follows for Caravelles serving BAL (BWI's code then):

August 5,1963 - no Caravelles at BAL.

April 24, 1966 -
BAL-YIP (Detroit Willow Run)
EWR-BAL-CMH-DAY-ORD-DSM-OMA
BAL-CLE-MKE-ORD
MKE-CLE-BAL
DSM-ORD-DAY-CMH-BAL-EWR
MSP-ORD-YIP-BAL
BAL-EWR
EWR-BAL

April 27, 1969 -
BAL-CMH-DAY-ORD (not sure where the aircraft comes from as can't find a Caravelle terminating BAL)
DCA-BAL-ROC-BUF
BUF-ROC-BAL-DCA


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3178 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 40):
There is a reason for that, both the Air Toulouse and Sterling Caravelles we not equipped with passenger oxygen masks.

Thank you for the info. How can a jet have no O2 masks? What would happen to those passengers if they were flying Air Toulouse or Sterling when O2 was needed?

A side note at least on this safety card the triangular window uniqe to the Caravelle diagram looks like looking into a toilet bowl.

Did all Caravelles have curtains instead of shades? Some of the cabin pics I couldn't see curtains.

Longhauler: Do you have any early 1960's Eastern Air Lines emergency exit cards. I remember they were actually plastic, much nicer than your run of the mill paper. Also, at least as of 1966 DL's emergency safety cards were all inclusive with safety information for all their fleet. So, even if you were sitting in one of those Palomar seats with your seat mounted reading light you could learn how to escape: In this order...
  • DC 9
  • DC8
  • CONVAIR 880
  • DC7
  • DC6
  • CONVAIR 440
  • CONVAIR 340



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User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4982 posts, RR: 42
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3172 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 42):
Thank you for the info. How can a jet have no O2 masks? What would happen to those passengers if they were flying Air Toulouse or Sterling when O2 was needed?

Also note that some versions of the Trident, and the BAC-111 also did not have passenger oxygen masks.

I believe at the time, it was a measure of how fast the aircraft could reach 10,000' from its normal cruising altitude, and only when allowed by the country's governing regulator. For example, the BAC-111 had oxygen masks when flying for American carriers, but not British.

I don't know about the Caravelle though, it has a huge wing, and small spoilers, I can't see it descending too quickly.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 42):
Longhauler: Do you have any early 1960's Eastern Air Lines emergency exit cards. I remember they were actually plastic, much nicer than your run of the mill paper.

Yes, all of Eastern's safety cards in the 1960's were thick plastic. Starting in the 1970s they changed to paper/cardboard as more information was added. Probably a change in safety card regulations.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 42):
Did all Caravelles have curtains instead of shades? Some of the cabin pics I couldn't see curtains.

Some of the later ones, with more modern cabins didn't. Like the Caravelle 10s and 12s.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 42):
Also, at least as of 1966 DL's emergency safety cards were all inclusive with safety information for all their fleet.

This was quite common for a lot of airlines. BOAC for example had "safety leaflets" with all of its fleet included, like the Argonaut, Hermes, Comet, Constellation, etc.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3169 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 43):
Some of the later ones, with more modern cabins didn't. Like the Caravelle 10s and 12s.

So, did those have the pull down shades like on today's aircraft or did they have no window covering?



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User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4982 posts, RR: 42
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 44):
So, did those have the pull down shades like on today's aircraft or did they have no window covering?

I have only flown on a Caravelle III, (AF and SR), VI-R (UA) and a 12 of IT. I don't recall curtains on the 12, but there were on the III and the VI-R. The problem with looking at pictures on here is that if they are in a museum, or destined to a museum, the curtains may have been removed.

If you look at the Air Toulouse Caravelle10 above, the curtain rails are there, but no curtains. It makes me think in operation there were curtains, they just aren't currently installed.

I don't ever remember seeing pull down shades on any Caravelle. What they did do though, is put a coloured film or window pane. If you look at the AF Caravelle below, some of the windows are "yellow" some are clear. The ones around the window exits are yellow, as the curtain did not pull over the window there. I suppose that was the concession to reduce the glare.


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Photo © Alberto Storti



I also remember, the last time I flew on an AF Caravelle, (ORY-ZRH), lining up outside the aircraft to enter. I noticed that some windows were yellow some were not, and it was random .... so who knows!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

LH: thank you. That makes sense. When looking at the restored Connies and the restored Eastern DC7 even the PSU's and overhead shelves (before the bin age) were removed making the cabins look like cavernous tubes and less like a commercial airliner interior. So if these major components can be removed then a Caravelle can have it's curtains de-railed. I also notice this when looking at interior cabin pics of Vickers Viscounts. When they were in service the massive egg shaped windows on the Viscount had curtains. I guess having a form fitting pull down shade for the Caravelle's unique triangle windows would be a technological feet back in the day.

Regarding the yellow films on the windows, this may have been to dim the sunlight. Just like the original Boeing 707's (at least in their advertising copy) and the L1011.

If I'm not mistaken the Boeing and Convair jets were the first to have pull down shades instead of curtains. However from looking at pictures the only piston/turbo prop of that era to have them as OEM were the Bristol Britania Turbo Props.
The yellow tinted/windows you noticed were probably done by passengers.Most wanted to go au natural and look out those triangle windows and there were those few that wanted their view dimmed.
BTW, were the triangular windows large like the DC8, Electra and Viscount windows or were they more in line with the smaller size of the Boeings?



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4982 posts, RR: 42
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 2759 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 46):
If I'm not mistaken the Boeing and Convair jets were the first to have pull down shades instead of curtains. However from looking at pictures the only piston/turbo prop of that era to have them as OEM were the Bristol Britannia Turbo Props.

The Viscount and Vanguard also had pull down shades. The very early Viscount's had theirs mounted into the wall outside the window. You can see them in this very early build Viscount.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mario Serrano


Also in this picture, you can notice that almost every window is an exit! This was unique to the early build Viscounts, and actually the reason for the large windows, it was set at minimum exit size. Later Viscounts were equipped with curtains, then toward the end of service, with new interiors, shades re-appeared.

The Vanguard, (same window size), also had shades, but each window had two! One pulled up, the other down. One was opaque the other translucent. You can see the Vanguard shades here:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dan Clark

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 46):
BTW, were the triangular windows large like the DC8, Electra and Viscount windows or were they more in line with the smaller size of the Boeings?

In area, they were not all that big. But the reason for the shape was explained that as most people "looked down" from the window, the bottom was wide for viewing, and the top narrow. The window size and shape were determined before the Comet fatigue crashes, but it appears that even before that, window area and shape were a consideration with regard to strength.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2000 posts, RR: 6
Reply 48, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2626 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 47):
The window size and shape were determined before the Comet fatigue crashes, but it appears that even before that, window area and shape were a consideration with regard to strength.

While the aircraft was "designed" before the Comet crashes of 1954, the same can be said for the Boeing 367-80. The Caravelle prototype flew a year after the Comet crashes. The windows are much more rounded. Only the very forward fuselage was a DeHavilland design from the Comet.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4982 posts, RR: 42
Reply 49, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2562 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 48):
While the aircraft was "designed" before the Comet crashes of 1954, the same can be said for the Boeing 367-80. The Caravelle prototype flew a year after the Comet crashes.

Yes, I recall reading that the 367-80, and thus the B707 and B717 had designed into it, safety measures to stop what happened to the Comet before the Comets went down. I assume the same thing with the Caravelle, as the rounded triangular windows were pictured from the start before the Comet accidents.

That is why I always shrug when people say the Comet paid the price for being first, when technically that is not quite right.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1097 posts, RR: 7
Reply 50, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2545 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 49):
Yes, I recall reading that the 367-80, and thus the B707 and B717 had designed into it, safety measures to stop what happened to the Comet before the Comets went down. I assume the same thing with the Caravelle, as the rounded triangular windows were pictured from the start before the Comet accidents.

That is why I always shrug when people say the Comet paid the price for being first, when technically that is not quite right.

I couldn't agree with you more longhauler. There were concerns on both sides of the Atlantic about aspects of the Comet's design as early as 1950. Issues of Flight International online from this period address misgivings held by U.S. CAA about the windows and overall structural design of the Comet. It was felt DeHavilland was working too much in isolation on their first aircraft with a pressure cabin and first large all-metal aircraft. Here's a quote from a May 1953 Flight International.

"Much has been made in the United States of the dire consequences of windows blowing out at 40,000ft. The de Havilland company have approached the undisputed problem by treating windows as though they were part of the basic airframe, and stressing them accordingly. In fact, not only have Comet windows been tested to 100 lb/sq in, but another has been pressurized to 8.0 lb/sq in daily for several years and cleaned regularly with scratch-remover, as are windows in service. The Air Registration Board is quoted as saying that explosive decompression at 40,000ft "shouldn't happen any oftener than a wing falling off."

This was less than one year before the two high altitude Comet accidents. While it was the window frame structure that failed and not the window itself, it's rather chilling to read...

[Edited 2013-01-20 20:55:27]

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