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BA To Lease Two 77W From ALC  
User currently offlinebthebest From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 506 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15598 times:

Flight global reports that BA are leasing 2 77W from ALC, for delivery in May/June 2014:

British Airways to lease 777s from ALC

It is unclear however if these are additional frames, or confirmation of lease contracts for the remaining aircraft on order.

Previous information says that the 4 frames currently on order are due Q3 2013 and 2014, plus these additional aircraft bring the fleet numbers in line with that announced in IAG 2015 Fleet Plan. It appears they are new orders then. Anyone confirm?

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2486 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 15014 times:

Good news then. BA needs to accelerate the retirment of those old 744 as the hard product is getting outdated in comparaison with the competition.


Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineDFWHeavy From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14855 times:

VikingA346 would know.


Are these new orders or part of an older order? What are the total number of 77Ws to be in the BA fleet by 2015?



Christopher W Slovacek
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30553 posts, RR: 84
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14795 times:
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ALC placed the original order in 2011...

User currently offlineUnited885 From Germany, joined Apr 2011, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14750 times:

BA actually operates six 77W and has four on order. With the two additional frames, the total number will grow to 12.


I haven´t been everywhere, but it´s on my list.
User currently offlinevhtje From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14615 times:
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Is there a particular reason why is BA leasing these aircraft and not purchasing them?

I understood IAG's cash position to be quite healthy.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14544 times:

Quoting vhtje (Reply 5):
Is there a particular reason why is BA leasing these aircraft and not purchasing them?

I understood IAG's cash position to be quite healthy.

Most likely for flexibility before deciding on the long term replacement for the 747 fleet.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5161 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14269 times:

Quoting vhtje (Reply 5):
Is there a particular reason why is BA leasing these aircraft and not purchasing them?

Probably because they don't plan on keeping them after the 10 year lease.


User currently offlinebthebest From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 506 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14210 times:

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 2):
What are the total number of 77Ws to be in the BA fleet by 2015?

Fleet plan said 58 777 family. Current breakdown is:

3 772
43 77E
6 77W (4 on order)

= 52 + 4 = 56

These extra 2 would then make it 58.


User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 273 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14078 times:

Is the 77W schedule for S13 known? I know about SYD. What about JFK, IAH, ORD, HKG?

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8278 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13794 times:
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Why doesn't BA order or lease a whole new fleet of 77W's, this drip of 2, 3 or 4 per year is too slow. BA has over 50 744's and only 12 A380's coming. Where are the other 38 planes ? It would seem 77W are going to be a good part of those.

User currently offlineUnited885 From Germany, joined Apr 2011, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13650 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Why doesn't BA order or lease a whole new fleet of 77W's, this drip of 2, 3 or 4 per year is too slow. BA has over 50 744's and only 12 A380's coming. Where are the other 38 planes ? It would seem 77W are going to be a good part of those.

They have also 24 Dreamliners on order.
For the futur I can inmagine, that BA uses either their A380´s or 77W´s for high frequentented destinations and OneWorld hubs and their 772´s together with the new introduced 787´s for other destinations. Perhaps they will reduce the number of flights to important destinations if they are served by A380´s and former by 747´s and perhaps they will raise the number of flights to a destination which are now by 747´s and in the futur by 787´s.
I think also, that BA will order more 77W´s when they are approved in the fleet.



I haven´t been everywhere, but it´s on my list.
User currently offlineDFWHeavy From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13549 times:

Hindsight is 20/20.. they should have ordered about 40 copies of the 77W 4-5 years ago.

They would be a helluva airline today.



Christopher W Slovacek
User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2542 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13467 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Why doesn't BA order or lease a whole new fleet of 77W's, this drip of 2, 3 or 4 per year is too slow. BA has over 50 744's and only 12 A380's coming. Where are the other 38 planes ? It would seem 77W are going to be a good part of those.

I am sure there will be a big order for BA and IB soon. I would expect A350s, and a top up of A380s and 787s -perhaps 787-10s more 787-9s.
It would not be wise to order a huge number of 77W that will burden them in the future when more efficient aircraft are the ones to have at that time.
Good to see more 77W that should allow BA to have some modest expansion and retire 744s whilst the next generation a/c are incorporated.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12382 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13282 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Why doesn't BA order or lease a whole new fleet of 77W's, this drip of 2, 3 or 4 per year is too slow.

Because the 77W fleet was only seen as 'interim lift' until their new planes were available in sufficient numbers. The fact they have shortish leases is a clue.

My expectation is that BA will order more A380s and either A350-1000s or 77Xs.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 13):
It would not be wise to order a huge number of 77W that will burden them in the future when more efficient aircraft are the ones to have at that time.

  



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13158 times:

I am not sure BA have the money. Remember that Bob Ayling rolled over the entire long haul fleet in ten years which is why it's all gotten old, there's just so much of it to replace all at the same time.

User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2486 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12961 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 15):

Air France has managed to modernize its fleet quite well.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineKaiTak747 From Switzerland, joined Aug 2012, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12716 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):

Why doesn't BA order or lease a whole new fleet of 77W's, this drip of 2, 3 or 4 per year is too slow. BA has over 50 744's and only 12 A380's coming. Where are the other 38 planes ? It would seem 77W are going to be a good part of those.

777-8X. This would leave them with A380, 777-8X, 787-8/9 as their future long haul fleet (a long way down the road).

BA use aircraft from new all the way to max hours and cycles, so some of the 747s (I think the youngest is about 14 years old) will be around until after 2020. The next big fleet change will be the 787 replacing 767s almost one for one.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12409 times:

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 12):
Hindsight is 20/20.. they should have ordered about 40 copies of the 77W 4-5 years ago.

They weren't in the best place remember? Tough times even before the 2008 crash.
Air France is wildly loss making and a semi-arm of the French state..... Comparing BA to Air France is and always has been comparing apples and pears.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8278 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12289 times:
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Quoting scbriml (Reply 14):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Why doesn't BA order or lease a whole new fleet of 77W's, this drip of 2, 3 or 4 per year is too slow.

Because the 77W fleet was only seen as 'interim lift' until their new planes were available in sufficient numbers. The fact they have shortish leases is a clue.

Cathay and Air Canada have leased new 777 for 12 years, BA's 10 years is NOT "interim". That is how long its going to take to get 777-9 in large enough numbers.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12382 posts, RR: 47
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12009 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19):
That is how long its going to take to get 777-9 in large enough numbers.

So, they lease 77Ws to tide them over until an alternative is available? That would seem to be the very definition of an interim solution.  Wink

It runs completely contrary to BA's normal fleet strategy.

[Edited 2013-01-10 14:08:34]


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11810 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19):
Cathay and Air Canada have leased new 777 for 12 years

True but Air Canada's are all 333ERs and Cathay's are all -367ERs.
BA has a mix of 336ERs and 36NERs.

Of course that may not mean anything whatsoever (!)


User currently offlineAPYu From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11718 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 20):

I guess BAs normal fleet strategy is defined by the COO at the time? Hence the different approaches we have seen over the last 20+ years.



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User currently offlinebthebest From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 506 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11656 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 20):
It runs completely contrary to BA's normal fleet strategy.

Normal fleet strategies aren't the way to go though. The economy and industry changes and you have to adapt your strategies accordingly. If they were working off the same strategies from the 80s/90s, I'd be worried.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4859 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11476 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 21):
True but Air Canada's are all 333ERs and Cathay's are all -367ERs

Can you explain what the difference is,please.?


25 NorthStarDC4M : Those are just Boeing customer codes... by themselves they means nothing other than who originally ordered the aircraft.
26 jumpjets : I guess that as the BA lease arrangements are in place before the planes are actually built the coding differences don't matter too much as BA could
27 skipness1E : They're physically identical it's just a technicality sometimes. Emirates -36NERs are mixed in with the rest of the fleet.
28 sunrisevalley : The only variant that I am aware of is one with a higher MTOW of which EK own a few. I beleive this is achieved with a software change .
29 N1120A : Um - BA could just put a newer hard product in the 744.
30 Stitch : They did in FIRST. Looks pretty darn nice, too, based on the pictures.
31 VV701 : BA's youngest 744 was delivered in April 1999. And it has 12 other 744s that are no more than a year older than this youngest ship. Recognising that
32 FI642 : Correct. Maximum engine thrust can be adjusted through software. Lower maximum thrust means longer engine life, well at least in theory.
33 AIR MALTA : BA has not plans of retro fitting their 744. I was in the the refurbished B767 G-BNWB and for a non aviation enthusiast, the aircraft seemed new. Man
34 GSTBA : S13 77W ops based on the schedule for 03-09 JUN13: BA005/BA006 - LHR-NRT-LHR (Daily) BA015/BA016 - LHR-SIN-SYD-SIN-LHR (Daily) BA169/BA168 - LHR-PVG-
35 Viscount724 : High fuel prices may well affect that historic BA policy. It's more critical on longhaul routes like those operated by the 744s since fuel is a highe
36 VV701 : The important word here is "if" in "if your operating costs are significantly higher". The question is whether or not the operating costs of flying a
37 Viscount724 : Yes, but with inflation, $150 million 20 years ago is equivalent to well over $300 million today. BA may be an exception but most major 744 operators
38 BA174 : G-BNLE and most of the other older 744s I would say are long since paid for meaning that they have a slight edge over newer aircraft in that they cos
39 skipness1E : So to be clear, they have six more B77Ws to come? G-STBG/H/I/J/K/L one assumes?
40 bthebest : The thread seems to have diverged a bit, with no confirmed answer to the original question, but that is what I would currently assume, with the follo
41 jfk777 : I appreciate that a few BA Jumbos will be around until 2020 but the facts are still the facts, only 12 A380 have been ordered. The 787 are 767 replac
42 JerseyFlyer : I am expecting a top up A380 order to coincide with the first A380 delivery. And something to bridge the 789 - 388 gap, either A359 / 10 or 7810.
43 skipness1E : Currently there are 14 long haul B767-300ERs but 24 B787s coming. Is that right? The seven short haul B763s aren't being replaced by B787s.
44 bthebest : By 2015 there will be 7 longhaul 767 left plus an unknown amount of shorthaul ones - the overall shorthaul fleet is due to be cut from 40 (19 737, 14
45 skipness1E : Can someone confirm the current B787 orders and options position without using Wiki.... Jethro has 24 orders and 18 options. Is this accurate? WIki ha
46 Post contains links 817Dreamliiner : From Boeing's website: British Airways (United Kingdom) Model Series Eng First Order Orders Deliveries Unfilled First Delivery 787-8 RR 24-Dec-2007 8
47 Post contains links bthebest : IAG Capital Markets presentation: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...YxMzc4fENoaWxkSUQ9LTF8VHlwZT0z&t=1 It puts 12 deliveries by 2015 (no spli
48 tonyflyboi : After reading about BA 744 and 777A may i just point out that G-ZZZC has just been totally refurbished with new First AVOD IFE and new world traveller
49 VV701 : Exactly. So a 19 year old aircraft bought for $150 million and being depreciated at 5 per cent per annum will incur a depreciatiuon cost of $7.5 mill
50 liftsifter : I don't see why BA don't upgrade 744's to the new World Traveler and WTP cabins. It wouldn't be an insane cost, and could potentially keep these birds
51 VV701 : Except for some brand new 744s that were delivered from PAE to CBG where Marshalls of Cambridge fitted BA's first generation lie-flat seats around tw
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