EnviableOne From UK - England, joined Jan 2013, 6 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3194 times:
I am trying to put together a Proposal for a Regional Business class Carrier based out of NCL. I Think LCY has to be a destination so that limits the choice of aircraft.
From the info I can find I have narrowed it down to the EMB 170 and the RJ/146.
I have found some limited information on apabilitites, but am looking for some opinions and some sources to find more.
What i really need is a source for ball-park leasing costs for both, and some ballparks for fuel consumption and maintanance so i can compare leasing models going forward.
It would be usefull to get some mechanics and pilots input as to ease of use and personal preference, I know a few pilots, but the more opinions the better.
Another thing i need to look at are ground based staff requirements how many and where, any help here would be great, I ahve a good idea what is needed in the air, but as far as ground ops I would be pining tails on donkeys.
Pe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 18830 posts, RR: 54 Reply 1, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3171 times:
Quoting EnviableOne (Thread starter): I Think LCY has to be a destination so that limits the choice of aircraft.
Not when central Newcastle to central London takes less than 3 hours by train (and sometimes less than 2h 50m) and with frequent trains (often every 30 minutes). Nowadays people are, where suitable modal substitution exists, increasingly willing to avoid flying on short-haul trips given increased hassles, stress, and dwell time.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
factsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 312 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3077 times:
Please note, that the Fokker 50 & Fokker 70 are also LCY capable, but offer less capacity and more favourable lease rates and overall operating economics to EMJ or RJ/Bae146 family.
For a business airline our of NCL you will not need large (jet) aircraft
BAe 146 - 856 gallons per block hour
ERJ 170 - 434 gallons per hour (as per this thread)
Jet fuel price monitor has the current cost of fuel as being 304 cents per gallon. Therefore your costs are:
BAe 146 - $2,600 per hour
ERJ 170 - $1,320 per hour
EDIT: Those fuel figures seem way too high to me. this thread has the ERJ 170 fuel burn as 1800 lbs, which is 268 US gallons, and a cost of $814 per hour, which seems more reasonable. It's hard to find reliable numbers for fuel burn!
yenne09 From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 183 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2860 times:
I read recently that «Viable group» wants to reopen Plymouth airport. Their ultimate goal is to expand the runway to about
4600 feet so that it will be possible to use aircraft up to 100 seats jet. What kind of aircraft will be able to use that lenght of runway? After doing some research it seems that the Mitsubishi MRJ is the best aircraft. What other aircraft can be suitable?
skipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2374 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2853 times:
Quoting EnviableOne (Thread starter): I am trying to put together a Proposal for a Regional Business class Carrier based out of NCL. I Think LCY has to be a destination so that limits the choice of aircraft.
Why not just set fire to your money now?
Have you investigated why the last NCL-LCY was not a success?
Here's an easier one. Excluding Loganair and given flybe is a loco hybrid, name some regional based succesful UK business carriers.
1) Eastern
2)
You can't be serious. This is a site for (I include myself) fanboys, planespotters and enthusiasts, the last people you must ever take business advice from.
asctty From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 72 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2801 times:
Quoting EnviableOne (Thread starter): I am trying to put together a Proposal for a Regional Business class Carrier based out of NCL. I Think LCY has to be a destination so that limits the choice of aircraft
If you are looking to the internet for advice on how to put together a business case for a new airline service I think you should consider a different venture.
Newcastle is well served by the railway and the time taken to get to the distant NCL airport will never compete with the train IMHO.
RussianJet From Kazakhstan, joined Jul 2007, 6279 posts, RR: 23 Reply 8, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2771 times:
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5): You can't be serious. This is a site for (I include myself) fanboys, planespotters and enthusiasts, the last people you must ever take business advice from.
It depends. You do this community a disservice with such a sweeping judgement - the fact is that in addition to the great many spotters and enthusiasts, there are also a huge number of people here who work in the industry, in a very diverse range of capacities. That said, the proposal seems like a foolhardy one, doomed to failure before it starts.
✈ Don't like it? That's just your tough chuff. ✈
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6621 posts, RR: 17 Reply 10, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2632 times:
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8): It depends. You do this community a disservice with such a sweeping judgement - the fact is that in addition to the great many spotters and enthusiasts, there are also a huge number of people here who work in the industry, in a very diverse range of capacities.
Granted. But how do you separate the high quality wheat from the poor quality grain and the medium quality grain from the chaff? And what skilled, knowledgeable contributor to the site is likely to share his or her professional skills in an open, public forum?
Having said that the criticism of the more successful major airlines one can read on a-net clearly demonstrates the presence of a significant number of budding airline CEOs.
LX138 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 349 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2632 times:
I was going to say 'start busking outside McDonalds in Newcastle instead' but that would be a harsh alternative.
But on a more positive note, there are loads of aircraft that are LCY certified - why limit options to just those types?
If I was forced at gunpoint to start a business focused airline out of NCL I would probably focus on very high yield/maybe energy/finance related cities and where there is no or little competition.
jumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 471 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2581 times:
When I read the opening post I just assumed that it was someone's university project [perhaps Newcastle Uni] requiring some sort of analysis of a business case for a new venture and that this student had decided to do flying.
If its not I am sure that any regional carrier in any UK town or city would contemplate a Business class based service - though I do accept that a service aimed at the Business community is a different matter altogether.
RussianJet From Kazakhstan, joined Jul 2007, 6279 posts, RR: 23 Reply 13, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2565 times:
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 9): Heart before head is never good in business IMHO
Quoting VV701 (Reply 10): Granted. But how do you separate the high quality wheat from the poor quality grain and the medium quality grain from the chaff? And what skilled, knowledgeable contributor to the site is likely to share his or her professional skills in an open, public forum?
There's nothing wrong with seeking as many opinions as possible, and using as many different people as sounding boards as upi can. Now, if someone was seriously going to base their entire business proposal on a couple of posts in a forum then clearly that's not likely to work and would be pretty silly, but it's all about context.
✈ Don't like it? That's just your tough chuff. ✈
EnviableOne From UK - England, joined Jan 2013, 6 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2051 times:
Thanks to the following for useful assistance, flightsonly, nighthawk, LX138.
As to the most of the rest of you, I have other sources of information that i consider reliable, I was asking for suggestions from one of the most comprehensive communities online about other sources i could use.
NCL was an initial Idea, coming from the fact, they have hangar space and I'm based in the area
I have looked into Gill Air and other carriers that fly/flew out of NCL, as always learning from the mistakes and experience of others stops you repeating history.
The reason I am looking at jets is I want to stick with one model for the airline, I wasn't saying that NCL - LCY was necessarily a route, just that LCY is a Business class airport in the UK and bearing in mind the cost of introducing a more disparate aircraft mix to the Airline, working from the LCY approved list was the best way to choose an aircraft.
In the original post I said I Had narrowed down the list to the EMB170 and the BAe146/RJ that was based on the info I had at the time.
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5): fanboys, planespotters and enthusiasts
are exactly the sort of people that you want to ask for opinions and sources.
But also from hunting the forum for information there are a lot more than just those around. Pilots and mechanics get involved in discussions and they are the people who's opinions i would like to collect, as i said I have a few, but the more the better.
WRT the Rail alternative, flight time NCL to LCY is 45 minutes, Domestic check in is shorter and transport to and from is Metro in NCL 20 mins every 7 to 8, and at LCY you have DLR on the doorstep too.
As to other failures, its not about them, if eastern can do it, it shows there's a market for this type of service.
with smaller airports competing and expanding, there are plenty of route opportunities.
Anyway, enough with defending myself, If there are some mechanics/Pilots who want to way in on the EMB170 vs BAe146 debate, and anyone who has a source i could use for ground ops info, it would be great to get some input.
But Eastern normally do it on city-pairs where the duration of substitutes is greater than 3 hours. They also concentrate on city-pairs where, through properly research and analysis, they deem sufficient demand from relatively price-inelastic people, hence their (often) high average one-way fares. They clearly identify and serve niche (so thin) markets.
Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 14): WRT the Rail alternative, flight time NCL to LCY is 45 minutes, Domestic check in is shorter and transport to and from is Metro in NCL 20 mins every 7 to 8, and at LCY you have DLR on the doorstep too.
Let's say:
Drive from central Newcastle (say) to NCL: 20 minutes
Park and walk to check-in: 10 minutes
Dwell time: 30 minutes (probably more)
Flying: 45 minutes (say)
Getting landside from LCY: 7 minutes (say)
Getting a taxi from LCY to Canary Wharf (say): 12 minutes
= 2h 5m
So you may, depending on delays, save an hour or so. But this doesn't overly matter: airlines are increasingly moving away from short-routes that are below 3 hours by surface modes and this substutability will only continue.
Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 14): I wasn't saying that NCL - LCY was necessarily a route
Personally, I'd find some niche routes where the distance isn't too long and where there isn't much risk of modal substitution and, through the size of the (actual or projected) market, where there isn't likely to be competition. Why limit your base to NCL? Seems odd if it's merely because you live or come from there.
Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 14): If there are some mechanics/Pilots who want to way in on the EMB170 vs BAe146 debate
While such people will be great on the technical side and need to be consulted, nowadays fleet planning is much more driven by financial and commercial people - so if I were doing it I'd obviously get the engineers' perspectives but concentrate more on the financial and commercial sides.
[Edited 2013-01-18 06:23:29]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
Wisdom From Netherlands, joined Apr 2011, 221 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1908 times:
You have a pm.
I think that neither of both aircraft is suitable for the operation you are considering.
NCL could support a small airline, but if you're seriously considering the BAe146, you're bust from before starting.
The E170 isn't suitable for your operation, it's just wishful thinking.
mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6180 posts, RR: 74 Reply 19, posted (4 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1830 times:
A regional business class carrier or a regional business carrier?
I'll assume it's a regional carrier with business orientation.
Quoting EnviableOne (Thread starter): I Think LCY has to be a destination so that limits the choice of aircraft.
Forget LCY if you're a startup! Do that at the later stages.
Quoting EnviableOne (Thread starter): From the info I can find I have narrowed it down to the EMB 170 and the RJ/146.
Forget the 146 family... it's not viable for a startup without top-notch experienced management with the current fuel prices.
Quoting EnviableOne (Thread starter): What i really need is a source for ball-park leasing costs for both, and some ballparks for fuel consumption and maintanance so i can compare leasing models going forward.
Quoting VV701 (Reply 10): And what skilled, knowledgeable contributor to the site is likely to share his or her professional skills in an open, public forum?
One who doesn't give away everything for free!
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
BD500 From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 28 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1770 times:
Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 14): The reason I am looking at jets is I want to stick with one model for the airline, I wasn't saying that NCL - LCY was necessarily a route, just that LCY is a Business class airport in the UK and bearing in mind the cost of introducing a more disparate aircraft mix to the Airline, working from the LCY approved list was the best way to choose an aircraft.
Why not considering the Q400? You have nearly jet speed, allowing to reach probably all of the desired regional destinations with a better operating cost.
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 4787 posts, RR: 9 Reply 21, posted (4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1725 times:
Quoting nighthawk (Reply 3): EDIT: Those fuel figures seem way too high to me. this thread has the ERJ 170 fuel burn as 1800 lbs, which is 268 US gallons, and a cost of $814 per hour, which seems more reasonable. It's hard to find reliable numbers for fuel burn!
Numbers in pounds are usually per engine, so you must add a 2 factor.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
Wisdom From Netherlands, joined Apr 2011, 221 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (4 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1614 times:
NCL is a tier 2 city.
It's not a large city, nor is it a small city.
The demand is fairly good, the competition fairly limited.
At a start-up stage I see 2 options:
-Emb120ER. Low risk 30 seat option.
-Fokker 50.
Once you build your routes, you can move up to ATR72/Q400.
If your idea is to stay within 1000 kilometers from NCL, any jet will be too big for you.
The main markets you will serve are O&D (origin and destination).
O&D pax who have no other option would be very happy to have a direct flight, so the turboprop/jet factor isn't a major issue.
You need to look for partners that you can feed pax to, such as Lufthansa in FRA, MUC and Swiss in ZRH.
At best, your NCL airline could operate up to 10 small aircraft.
If you do it right, you can expand with new bases and get bigger, but keep in mind that you will need to be very good to kick your competitors out of their markets.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11122 posts, RR: 63 Reply 23, posted (4 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1599 times:
I think your best bet is looking at 50 seat props - venture higher and you will encounter FlyBe, who will make your life hell. But be aware that NCL already has a presense by Eastern and that it is unlikely to have overlooked any potential services.
Quoting yenne09 (Reply 4): I read recently that «Viable group» wants to reopen Plymouth airport. Their ultimate goal is to expand the runway to about
4600 feet so that it will be possible to use aircraft up to 100 seats jet. What kind of aircraft will be able to use that lenght of runway? After doing some research it seems that the Mitsubishi MRJ is the best aircraft. What other aircraft can be suitable?
A good variety. The E-Jets, ATRs, Q400, CS100 etc...
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 19): Forget the 146 family... it's not viable for a startup without top-notch experienced management with the current fuel prices.
146 lease rates are pretty attractive right now, but they are no longer the only player in that niche.
gkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24621 posts, RR: 58 Reply 24, posted (4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1405 times:
I read that bmi regional may be setting up a NCL base?
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
25 LX138: Why??! Although other options should be considered - what an earth is wrong with the 170? There were loads of them built!
26 bennett123: iirc, there were 394(?) built. However, significant numbers have been scrapped/converted to other uses/permanently parked. My understanding is that th
27 Wisdom: The BAe146 and the Avro RJ are no longer suited for airline passenger or cargo operations. There are many reasons, but horrible fuel burn and high ma
28 mandala499: Yes, the lease rates ARE attractive... the trip fuel burn/seat figures are NOT attractive. The AVRO RJ/146s burn as much fuel as a 737 Classic for a
29 PlymSpotter: Largely correct, but there is some dependence on the specific business model. For NCL though it's a complete non starter. It's ironic that the 190 is
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