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UK Regional Carrier(NCL): BAe RJ/146 Or EMB 170  
User currently offlineEnviableOne From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 113 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4784 times:

I am trying to put together a Proposal for a Regional Business class Carrier based out of NCL. I Think LCY has to be a destination so that limits the choice of aircraft.

From the info I can find I have narrowed it down to the EMB 170 and the RJ/146.

I have found some limited information on apabilitites, but am looking for some opinions and some sources to find more.

What i really need is a source for ball-park leasing costs for both, and some ballparks for fuel consumption and maintanance so i can compare leasing models going forward.

It would be usefull to get some mechanics and pilots input as to ease of use and personal preference, I know a few pilots, but the more opinions the better.

Another thing i need to look at are ground based staff requirements how many and where, any help here would be great, I ahve a good idea what is needed in the air, but as far as ground ops I would be pining tails on donkeys.

Thanks in advance for Helping


A wise man speaks because has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something - Plato
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19246 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4762 times:

Quoting EnviableOne (Thread starter):
I Think LCY has to be a destination so that limits the choice of aircraft.

Not when central Newcastle to central London takes less than 3 hours by train (and sometimes less than 2h 50m) and with frequent trains (often every 30 minutes). Nowadays people are, where suitable modal substitution exists, increasingly willing to avoid flying on short-haul trips given increased hassles, stress, and dwell time.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 998 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4669 times:

Please note, that the Fokker 50 & Fokker 70 are also LCY capable, but offer less capacity and more favourable lease rates and overall operating economics to EMJ or RJ/Bae146 family.

For a business airline our of NCL you will not need large (jet) aircraft


User currently offlinenighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 5178 posts, RR: 33
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

Cost of various aircraft, to buy second hand and to lease:

A319 – $11.0-30.4M, $125-265,000
A320 – $4.0 - 38.7M, $60-310,000
A321 – $19.5 - 43.4M, $195-370,000
A330-200 – $42.0 - 83.8M, $450-765,000
A340-300 – $18.0 -50.3M, $225-475,000
B737-300 – $2.5 – 5.8M, $55-120,000
B737-700 - $15.3 - 32.1M, $165-295,000
B737-800 - $19.7 - 40.8M, $235-355,000
B737-900ER - $32.9 - 44.5M, $310-390,000
B747-400 – $17.5 – 54.2M, $345-680,000
B757-200 – $5.5 – 20.6M, $115-230,000
B767-300ER – $9.0 – 57.4M, $200-515,000
B777-200ER – $41.2 – 117.7M, $540-990,000
B777-300ER – $85.0 – 148.5M, $845-1,275,000
MD-11 - $8.7 – 10.5M , $135-160,000
MD-82 - $1.0 - 2.7M, $25-60,000
CRJ200 – $2.3 – 6.6M, $35-75,000
CRJ700 – $10.0 – 21.0M, $110-215,000
CRJ900 - $13.9 – 23.5M, $150-245,000
Q400 – $8.3 – 18.4M, $130-200,000
ERJ145 – $4.8 – 8.7M, $60-85,000
EMB170 – $14.0 – 23.1M, $150-230,000
EMB190 – $19.8 – 29.3M, $210-265,000
ATR-72 – $5.6 – 18.4M, $70-185,000

Fuel costs:
Refer to the following for a list of average fuel burn per aircraft type:
http://legacy.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf

BAe 146 - 856 gallons per block hour
ERJ 170 - 434 gallons per hour (as per this thread)

Jet fuel price monitor has the current cost of fuel as being 304 cents per gallon. Therefore your costs are:

BAe 146 - $2,600 per hour
ERJ 170 - $1,320 per hour

EDIT: Those fuel figures seem way too high to me. this thread has the ERJ 170 fuel burn as 1800 lbs, which is 268 US gallons, and a cost of $814 per hour, which seems more reasonable. It's hard to find reliable numbers for fuel burn!

[Edited 2013-01-11 05:20:39]


That'll teach you
User currently offlineyenne09 From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4451 times:

I read recently that Β«Viable groupΒ» wants to reopen Plymouth airport. Their ultimate goal is to expand the runway to about
4600 feet so that it will be possible to use aircraft up to 100 seats jet. What kind of aircraft will be able to use that lenght of runway? After doing some research it seems that the Mitsubishi MRJ is the best aircraft. What other aircraft can be suitable?


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3298 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4443 times:

Quoting EnviableOne (Thread starter):
I am trying to put together a Proposal for a Regional Business class Carrier based out of NCL. I Think LCY has to be a destination so that limits the choice of aircraft.

Why not just set fire to your money now?
Have you investigated why the last NCL-LCY was not a success?

Here's an easier one. Excluding Loganair and given flybe is a loco hybrid, name some regional based succesful UK business carriers.
1) Eastern
2)

You can't be serious. This is a site for (I include myself) fanboys, planespotters and enthusiasts, the last people you must ever take business advice from.

[Edited 2013-01-11 06:36:42]

User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4411 times:

What is it they say about airline investments turning billionaires into millionaires?

User currently offlineasctty From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4391 times:

Quoting EnviableOne (Thread starter):
I am trying to put together a Proposal for a Regional Business class Carrier based out of NCL. I Think LCY has to be a destination so that limits the choice of aircraft

If you are looking to the internet for advice on how to put together a business case for a new airline service I think you should consider a different venture.
Newcastle is well served by the railway and the time taken to get to the distant NCL airport will never compete with the train IMHO.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4361 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):
You can't be serious. This is a site for (I include myself) fanboys, planespotters and enthusiasts, the last people you must ever take business advice from.

It depends. You do this community a disservice with such a sweeping judgement - the fact is that in addition to the great many spotters and enthusiasts, there are also a huge number of people here who work in the industry, in a very diverse range of capacities. That said, the proposal seems like a foolhardy one, doomed to failure before it starts.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3298 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4313 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8):
ou do this community a disservice with such a sweeping judgement

Heart before head is never good in business IMHO


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7696 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4222 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8):
It depends. You do this community a disservice with such a sweeping judgement - the fact is that in addition to the great many spotters and enthusiasts, there are also a huge number of people here who work in the industry, in a very diverse range of capacities.

Granted. But how do you separate the high quality wheat from the poor quality grain and the medium quality grain from the chaff? And what skilled, knowledgeable contributor to the site is likely to share his or her professional skills in an open, public forum?

Having said that the criticism of the more successful major airlines one can read on a-net clearly demonstrates the presence of a significant number of budding airline CEOs.      


User currently offlineLX138 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4222 times:

I was going to say 'start busking outside McDonalds in Newcastle instead' but that would be a harsh alternative.

But on a more positive note, there are loads of aircraft that are LCY certified - why limit options to just those types?

If I was forced at gunpoint to start a business focused airline out of NCL I would probably focus on very high yield/maybe energy/finance related cities and where there is no or little competition.

Say: BGO, SVG, CPH, ZUR, LIN etc.



StarWorld Team - The ultimate airline alliance
User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 876 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4171 times:

When I read the opening post I just assumed that it was someone's university project [perhaps Newcastle Uni] requiring some sort of analysis of a business case for a new venture and that this student had decided to do flying.

If its not I am sure that any regional carrier in any UK town or city would contemplate a Business class based service - though I do accept that a service aimed at the Business community is a different matter altogether.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4155 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 9):
Heart before head is never good in business IMHO
Quoting VV701 (Reply 10):
Granted. But how do you separate the high quality wheat from the poor quality grain and the medium quality grain from the chaff? And what skilled, knowledgeable contributor to the site is likely to share his or her professional skills in an open, public forum?

There's nothing wrong with seeking as many opinions as possible, and using as many different people as sounding boards as upi can. Now, if someone was seriously going to base their entire business proposal on a couple of posts in a forum then clearly that's not likely to work and would be pretty silly, but it's all about context.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineEnviableOne From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

Thanks to the following for useful assistance, flightsonly, nighthawk, LX138.

As to the most of the rest of you, I have other sources of information that i consider reliable, I was asking for suggestions from one of the most comprehensive communities online about other sources i could use.

NCL was an initial Idea, coming from the fact, they have hangar space and I'm based in the area

I have looked into Gill Air and other carriers that fly/flew out of NCL, as always learning from the mistakes and experience of others stops you repeating history.

The reason I am looking at jets is I want to stick with one model for the airline, I wasn't saying that NCL - LCY was necessarily a route, just that LCY is a Business class airport in the UK and bearing in mind the cost of introducing a more disparate aircraft mix to the Airline, working from the LCY approved list was the best way to choose an aircraft.

In the original post I said I Had narrowed down the list to the EMB170 and the BAe146/RJ that was based on the info I had at the time.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):
fanboys, planespotters and enthusiasts

are exactly the sort of people that you want to ask for opinions and sources.

But also from hunting the forum for information there are a lot more than just those around. Pilots and mechanics get involved in discussions and they are the people who's opinions i would like to collect, as i said I have a few, but the more the better.

WRT the Rail alternative, flight time NCL to LCY is 45 minutes, Domestic check in is shorter and transport to and from is Metro in NCL 20 mins every 7 to 8, and at LCY you have DLR on the doorstep too.

As to other failures, its not about them, if eastern can do it, it shows there's a market for this type of service.

with smaller airports competing and expanding, there are plenty of route opportunities.

Anyway, enough with defending myself, If there are some mechanics/Pilots who want to way in on the EMB170 vs BAe146 debate, and anyone who has a source i could use for ground ops info, it would be great to get some input.



A wise man speaks because has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something - Plato
User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19246 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 14):
if eastern can do it

But Eastern normally do it on city-pairs where the duration of substitutes is greater than 3 hours. They also concentrate on city-pairs where, through properly research and analysis, they deem sufficient demand from relatively price-inelastic people, hence their (often) high average one-way fares. They clearly identify and serve niche (so thin) markets.

Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 14):
WRT the Rail alternative, flight time NCL to LCY is 45 minutes, Domestic check in is shorter and transport to and from is Metro in NCL 20 mins every 7 to 8, and at LCY you have DLR on the doorstep too.

Let's say:

Drive from central Newcastle (say) to NCL: 20 minutes
Park and walk to check-in: 10 minutes
Dwell time: 30 minutes (probably more)
Flying: 45 minutes (say)
Getting landside from LCY: 7 minutes (say)
Getting a taxi from LCY to Canary Wharf (say): 12 minutes

= 2h 5m

So you may, depending on delays, save an hour or so. But this doesn't overly matter: airlines are increasingly moving away from short-routes that are below 3 hours by surface modes and this substutability will only continue.

Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 14):
I wasn't saying that NCL - LCY was necessarily a route

Personally, I'd find some niche routes where the distance isn't too long and where there isn't much risk of modal substitution and, through the size of the (actual or projected) market, where there isn't likely to be competition. Why limit your base to NCL? Seems odd if it's merely because you live or come from there.

Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 14):
If there are some mechanics/Pilots who want to way in on the EMB170 vs BAe146 debate

While such people will be great on the technical side and need to be consulted, nowadays fleet planning is much more driven by financial and commercial people - so if I were doing it I'd obviously get the engineers' perspectives but concentrate more on the financial and commercial sides.

[Edited 2013-01-18 06:23:29]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineshankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1547 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3553 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 5):
name some regional based successful UK business carriers.
1) Eastern
2)

Easyjet? First routes (for nearly two years) Luton to Glasgow and Edinburgh



L1011 - P F M
User currently offlineWisdom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3498 times:

You have a pm.

I think that neither of both aircraft is suitable for the operation you are considering.
NCL could support a small airline, but if you're seriously considering the BAe146, you're bust from before starting.

The E170 isn't suitable for your operation, it's just wishful thinking.

You need to look at other options.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7760 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3474 times:

Well if you are interested in BAE146/ARJ, then most seem to end up at Kemble.

However, there were not a massive number of them built, and a lot have been scrapped.

Unless you want to mix and match, then what capacity did you have in mind.

David


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6957 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3420 times:

A regional business class carrier or a regional business carrier?
I'll assume it's a regional carrier with business orientation.

Quoting EnviableOne (Thread starter):
I Think LCY has to be a destination so that limits the choice of aircraft.

Forget LCY if you're a startup! Do that at the later stages.

Quoting EnviableOne (Thread starter):
From the info I can find I have narrowed it down to the EMB 170 and the RJ/146.

Forget the 146 family... it's not viable for a startup without top-notch experienced management with the current fuel prices.

Quoting EnviableOne (Thread starter):
What i really need is a source for ball-park leasing costs for both, and some ballparks for fuel consumption and maintanance so i can compare leasing models going forward.
Quoting VV701 (Reply 10):
And what skilled, knowledgeable contributor to the site is likely to share his or her professional skills in an open, public forum?

One who doesn't give away everything for free!   



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineBD500 From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3360 times:

Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 14):
The reason I am looking at jets is I want to stick with one model for the airline, I wasn't saying that NCL - LCY was necessarily a route, just that LCY is a Business class airport in the UK and bearing in mind the cost of introducing a more disparate aircraft mix to the Airline, working from the LCY approved list was the best way to choose an aircraft.

Why not considering the Q400? You have nearly jet speed, allowing to reach probably all of the desired regional destinations with a better operating cost.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6845 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3315 times:

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 3):
EDIT: Those fuel figures seem way too high to me. this thread has the ERJ 170 fuel burn as 1800 lbs, which is 268 US gallons, and a cost of $814 per hour, which seems more reasonable. It's hard to find reliable numbers for fuel burn!

Numbers in pounds are usually per engine, so you must add a 2 factor.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineWisdom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3204 times:

NCL is a tier 2 city.
It's not a large city, nor is it a small city.

The demand is fairly good, the competition fairly limited.

At a start-up stage I see 2 options:
-Emb120ER. Low risk 30 seat option.
-Fokker 50.

Once you build your routes, you can move up to ATR72/Q400.
If your idea is to stay within 1000 kilometers from NCL, any jet will be too big for you.

The main markets you will serve are O&D (origin and destination).
O&D pax who have no other option would be very happy to have a direct flight, so the turboprop/jet factor isn't a major issue.

You need to look for partners that you can feed pax to, such as Lufthansa in FRA, MUC and Swiss in ZRH.

At best, your NCL airline could operate up to 10 small aircraft.
If you do it right, you can expand with new bases and get bigger, but keep in mind that you will need to be very good to kick your competitors out of their markets.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11690 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

I think your best bet is looking at 50 seat props - venture higher and you will encounter FlyBe, who will make your life hell. But be aware that NCL already has a presense by Eastern and that it is unlikely to have overlooked any potential services.

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 4):
I read recently that Β«Viable groupΒ» wants to reopen Plymouth airport. Their ultimate goal is to expand the runway to about
4600 feet so that it will be possible to use aircraft up to 100 seats jet. What kind of aircraft will be able to use that lenght of runway? After doing some research it seems that the Mitsubishi MRJ is the best aircraft. What other aircraft can be suitable?

A good variety. The E-Jets, ATRs, Q400, CS100 etc...

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 19):
Forget the 146 family... it's not viable for a startup without top-notch experienced management with the current fuel prices.

146 lease rates are pretty attractive right now, but they are no longer the only player in that niche.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinegkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24961 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2995 times:

I read that bmi regional may be setting up a NCL base?


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineLX138 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3031 times:

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 17):
if you're seriously considering the BAe146, you're bust from before starting

Why??!

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 17):
The E170 isn't suitable for your operation, it's just wishful thinking.

Although other options should be considered - what an earth is wrong with the 170?

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 18):
However, there were not a massive number of them built

There were loads of them built!



StarWorld Team - The ultimate airline alliance
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7760 posts, RR: 3
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2959 times:

iirc, there were 394(?) built.

However, significant numbers have been scrapped/converted to other uses/permanently parked.

My understanding is that the number flying is about 220, (some of which are 20-25 years old).

However, that 220 consists of two series, (BAE 146 and ARJ) which are similar but still not the same as each other.

Each series consists of 3 varients, (based on size).

I therefore conclude that unless you mix and match, that your options are more limited than it seems at first glance.


User currently offlineWisdom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2880 times:

Quoting LX138 (Reply 25):

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 17):
if you're seriously considering the BAe146, you're bust from before starting

Why??!

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 17):
The E170 isn't suitable for your operation, it's just wishful thinking.

Although other options should be considered - what an earth is wrong with the 170?

The BAe146 and the Avro RJ are no longer suited for airline passenger or cargo operations.
There are many reasons, but horrible fuel burn and high maintenance costs are some of the reasons no longer make the type viable.
There is a reason behind those awfully cheap lease rates.

I think that the only viable market for the BAe146 and Avro RJ is for conversion to something where they will be parked 95% of the time and used 5% of the time, like a maritime patrol platform.
Even though some are starting to use them as a firefighting platform, it's not an efficient firefighting platform. 15 tons of water poured once every hour won't do much to a large fire, and you can't dispatch it for every small fire because of the cost of fuel.

As for the E170; the E170 is not viable as a stand-alone aircraft in a small fleet of a regional airline.
The reason is that it has high lease costs, quite a significant fuel burn and this for just 70 seats. The same way the 50 seat RJ market disappeared in no time, the 70 seat market is quickly dissipating.

The E170 now only makes sense for a huge airline that operates the E190/E195 as their main regional feeders and needs a smaller feeder that has commonality with these types to serve thinner routes where every cent of saving over the E190/E195 is a welcome benefit.

It's definitely not an option for a start-up carrier out of NCL, it's too big, too expensive to lease and still has a significant operating cost and high CASM due to the low seat count. Many airlines are getting rid of them for this reason.


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6957 posts, RR: 76
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2729 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 23):
146 lease rates are pretty attractive right now, but they are no longer the only player in that niche.

Yes, the lease rates ARE attractive... the trip fuel burn/seat figures are NOT attractive.

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 27):
The BAe146 and the Avro RJ are no longer suited for airline passenger or cargo operations.
There are many reasons, but horrible fuel burn and high maintenance costs are some of the reasons no longer make the type viable.
There is a reason behind those awfully cheap lease rates.

The AVRO RJ/146s burn as much fuel as a 737 Classic for a given trip... carrying less... enough reason to scratch this one off the list. As much as I like the airplane and think it's cute (I do), business is business... Airlines here where I am can make more money out of a 737-200 than an AvRJ/146.
---
What aircraft the OP should get, really does depend on the market it's looking at, the size of achievable market, and also the utilization rate... all three are tied together and does determine the type required.

Personally, I would go E170/190, but do note the following:

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 27):
As for the E170; the E170 is not viable as a stand-alone aircraft in a small fleet of a regional airline.
The reason is that it has high lease costs, quite a significant fuel burn and this for just 70 seats.

For past startup projects the E170/190 was hot and high on the list, but never made it to the final selection. Fuelburn was not the reason, and neither was the lease cost... the major issue was the maintenance cost. For such a new plane, the maintenance costs projections was a nightmare once you get out of "familiar areas of operations" for Embraer. Embraer really do need to do better at this... the airplanes actually don't need more than 2/3 of the projected maintenance numbers for what I was given.

Given your area is NCL, even maintenance costs shouldn't be a nightmare for this airplane.
So, what is wrong in Wisdom discouraging you from the E170? Well, nothing, because:

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 27):
The same way the 50 seat RJ market disappeared in no time, the 70 seat market is quickly dissipating.

Is damn true! Fuel costs will continue to rise, and that will squeeze the 70-seater market out as it did to the 50-seater market. Less than 70 seats are moving to the niche faster than anticipated. So unless you plan to upscale, the E170 needs careful consideration... even though it is better than the 146.

---
My advise is:
50-70 seater props, 90-120 seater jets, or bug out.



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11690 posts, RR: 60
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2471 times:

Quoting Wisdom (Reply 27):
The BAe146 and the Avro RJ are no longer suited for airline passenger or cargo operations.
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 28):
Yes, the lease rates ARE attractive... the trip fuel burn/seat figures are NOT attractive.

Largely correct, but there is some dependence on the specific business model. For NCL though it's a complete non starter.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 28):
Is damn true! Fuel costs will continue to rise, and that will squeeze the 70-seater market out as it did to the 50-seater market. Less than 70 seats are moving to the niche faster than anticipated.

It's ironic that the 190 is a sizable part of the problem for the 170. I am eagerly awaiting specifics of the next-gen E Jets.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
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