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Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s  
User currently offlinehotplane From UK - England, joined Jul 2006, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 14103 times:
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Ex Air India aircraft. Will they be 200LRs?

www.flightglobal.com/airspace/blogs/john_dyer/default.aspx


?
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineredzeppelin From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 587 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 14033 times:

Wow. Five 772s for PS! Rumors in the Ukraine aviation thread suggested 77L.


Flown: DL,OS,NZ,UN,VV,NW,AA,UA,HP,TZ,AS,AF,KL,SK,WS,AZ,OK; op by OO,MQ,XJ,9E,G7,EV,QX,RP
User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13962 times:

77L should look nice in PS colours. Other than New York, wonder what other routes they have in mind for them.

User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13593 times:

Quoting TC957 (Reply 2):
Other than New York, wonder what other routes they have in mind for them.

VV flew to YYZ, so I would imagine they would pick up that route as well.


User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2489 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 13522 times:

They must have gotten these 77L's for a good price. Or else why bother with the -LR. It's not like PS needs the range for JFK or YYZ, or any other intl destination they plan on serving that wasn't already accessible by the 763.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12466 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12824 times:

No surprise that it's AI aircraft, since AI has been trying to get rid of these aircraft for quite a while and now, with VV out of the picture, PS can expand to some new routes. Presumably JFK, YYZ and PEK will be among the first routes and no doubt the 77L will find its way to DXB as well.

TK had been linked to these aircraft (rumour only), so I guess this deepens the rumour as to where TK will find the 777s it intends to lease in the short term.


User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 12376 times:

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 1):
Five 772s for PS! Rumors in the Ukraine aviation thread suggested 77L.

They are (still) rumored to be LRs...

And the destinations that they are looking at are : JFK, BKK, Beijing, and a few other cities in Asia (IIRC, something in Vietnam)



“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 12311 times:

Ukraine Aviation Thread #1 (by irshava Dec 28 2012 in Civil Aviation)

The thread and link to the articles.



“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 11904 times:
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They can only be 77L models if they are coming from Air India

Air India disposed of the early the 77A/77E models some time ago

VT- AIR the only 77A and ex United N766UA is in bits on shelves and in bins at Lourdes

VT-AIL a 77E and ex United N789UA is back in the USA operating with Omni as N918AX

VT-AIJ also a 77E and ex United N790UA is also back in the US and with Omni as N927AX

VT-AIK the final 77E and ex United N205UA is stored in Shannon in Transaero colours as EI-UNV.

[Edited 2013-01-12 07:35:23]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30978 posts, RR: 86
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 11448 times:
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Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 4):
They must have gotten these 77L's for a good price. Or else why bother with the -LR. It's not like PS needs the range for JFK or YYZ, or any other intl destination they plan on serving that wasn't already accessible by the 763.

The majority of 777-200LR operators likely chose the model for it's payload-over-range and fuel-burn advantages over the 777-200ER and not because of it's longer range.


User currently offlineflylku From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 808 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 10536 times:

What is the crossover mission at which the LR is more efficient than the ER and how many of their potential missions exceed this stage length?


...are we there yet?
User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2489 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 9324 times:

.

Quoting flylku (Reply 10):

What is the crossover mission at which the LR is more efficient than the ER and how many of their potential missions exceed this stage length?

For equal payload, the point where the 77L surpasses the 77E is somewhere around 5800 NM.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 9227 times:
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Good luck to them. I have found them to be a good, affordable carrier on the couple of experiences I have had with them. Nice to see them spreading their wings.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2489 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 9183 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
fuel-burn advantages over the 777-200ER and not because of it's longer range.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
The majority of 777-200LR operators likely chose the model for it's payload-over-range and fuel-burn advantages over the 777-200ER and not because of it's longer range.

Sure, but you and me both know that is not why PS chose the AI 77Ls !

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1537 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 9099 times:
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Quoting irshava (Reply 6):

VT-AIK the final 77E and ex United N205UA is stored in Shannon in Transaero colours as EI-UNV.

It is techically not in storage but being prepared for service with Transaero


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30978 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 9058 times:
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Quoting flylku (Reply 10):
What is the crossover mission at which the LR is more efficient than the ER...
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 11):
For equal payload, the point where the 77L surpasses the 77E is somewhere around 5800 NM.

I've heard it is closer to 2000nm.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5462 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7677 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 13):

I really want to know how much they paid...I bet they got fire sale prices.



What the...?
User currently onlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2489 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7602 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
I've heard it is closer to 2000nm.

If that was the case, there would be more than 58 LR's sold.

The 77E is still the most efficient machine under 5800 nm. (Again, same payload).

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30978 posts, RR: 86
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7578 times:
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Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 17):
If that was the case, there would be more than 58 LR's sold.

By the time the 777-200LR entered revenue service, most people who needed a long-range 777-sized twin already had the 777-200ER in their fleet. Almost every 777-200LR customer was a customer new to the 777, so if the 777-200ER was more efficient out to it's MZFW (5800nm), one would think the 777-200LR's sales would be even less as those new customers would have chosen the 777-200ER.

widebodyphotog ran the numbers and he noted that:

Quote:
The improvement in TSFC, propulsive efficiency, and airframe L/D more than negate the drag penalty of the relatively small increase in structural weight of 777-200LR vs 777-200ER. Those improvements allow the airplane about a 3% better fuel burn/unit payload than 777-200ER at ranges beyond 2,000nm. At the design payload and range of the 777-200ER the 777-200LR need only takeoff at 665,000lbs, only 9,000lbs above the structural MTOW of 777-200ER. The difference in TOW's is significantly less than the difference in OEW of the two aircraft. This difference in TOW weights and the increase in OEW of 777-200LR is all fuel, which is a lower at that payload range point for 777-200LR. This lower fuel requirement is due entirely to the better airframe/engine performance of 777-200LR.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 16):
I really want to know how much they paid...I bet they got fire sale prices.

Average value for 777-200KRs of AI's age would be between $105 and $113 million. AI appeared to be willing to hold out for a premium, so it seems somewhat unlikely that they would suddenly decide to "fire-sale" them.


User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 7304 times:

AI wasn't holding out for a premium. No one wanted them because of the cost of getting them back in flying condition. The record keeping (or lack there of) especially for such new airplanes was in such a bad condition that you essentially had to go over every part. UIA has their work cut out for them. Hope we see them in YYZ for the summer at least.


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1823 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 7027 times:

Isn't the GE-90-110 a more efficient engine than the -94? The 77L is just too much capability for most airlines, but if anyone would order a new 772 I guess the L is a better choice then the er, other than cost. There has been no new 200 orders for ever right?

User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12466 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 6980 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 20):
There has been no new 200 orders for ever right?

ANA ordered a few, as compensation for the lateness of the 787s; I think they have about three left to be delivered.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30978 posts, RR: 86
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6603 times:
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Quoting Slawko (Reply 19):
AI wasn't holding out for a premium. No one wanted them because of the cost of getting them back in flying condition. The record keeping (or lack there of) especially for such new airplanes was in such a bad condition that you essentially had to go over every part.

That charge was brought up in the original AI sale thread, but I seem to recall a number of members with contacts with AI Engineering stating that the paperwork was in fact up-to-spec.

As an aside, if the planes' maintenance records were in fact not maintained, could that have affected operations to the US and EU?

Many, myself included, believed it was the cost to convert the cabin from AI's standard to the new customer's was the main issue. Per an unreferenced link in Wikipedia, it is said the planes will be reconfigured from three classes to two, but perhaps PS will instead operate them in the AI configuration and save the costs.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1823 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6471 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
but perhaps PS will instead operate them in the AI configuration and save the costs.

But how do they get rid of that curry smell?  


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5462 posts, RR: 30
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6352 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
Many, myself included, believed it was the cost to convert the cabin from AI's standard to the new customer's was the main issue. Per an unreferenced link in Wikipedia, it is said the planes will be reconfigured from three classes to two, but perhaps PS will instead operate them in the AI configuration and save the costs.

I don't think UIA is as picky about the cabin features or decor as some. I flew on some of their 737's a few years ago and the interiors were stock from whomever they purchased the planes...down to the Spanish labels on everything.

I suspect they'll put the planes into service with the AI interiors, but paint the exterior, which I think is a smart move. The branding is on the outside of the plane...once you see the interior, you've already bought a ticket. Fly the plane as is and do the interior when you have the available cash.

[Edited 2013-01-13 10:49:08]


What the...?
25 na : After trying to get rid of these planes for years now in some way or the other I wouldnt wonder if they are fed up and sold them whoever who wants th
26 Tdan : Oi, in 5 years, we'll be talking about the bankruptcy of Ukraine International if they go through with this! Why can't sound analysis rule the day ove
27 Post contains images Slawko : If they got the 777's for next to nothing then they could in fact be cheaper to operate than the 767's. Further, they are literally in the middle of t
28 irshava : is incredibly full*. Well JFK at least, not too sure about YYZ but loadfactors are in the 80+%.
29 FreshSide3 : Chicago would be a natural choice. Lots of Ukrainians there, and lots of interest by Ukrainians in visiting the Windy City. In fact, they recently op
30 Post contains links Tupolev160 : Latest news on this topic include: - VV transferring most of flights to PS and still operating just a handful of key routes - PS reestablishing Europe
31 Tupolev160 : For me it is just unbelievable that AI finally managed to get rid of those 77L, seemed like they'll never be able to sell them. Any clue at what price
32 FreshSide3 : I meant to say YWG, not YEG on this....
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