zippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12 Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4372 times:
With the exception of AA and their monopoly, no other domestic carriers have expanded service to MIA. DL and US haven't changed their number of flights to the best of my knowledge. (last 10 years) Otherwise it's just the major International carriers and AA. Seems that everyone wants to make FLL their go to airport for the South Florida area.
Will MIA ever lower their landing fees to win back domestic flights from the majors?
When will FLL hit their tipping point and be too small for all this growth?
Will FLL ever jack up their landing fees?
Nothing lasts forever and things reverse; when do you think the major domestic carriers return or expand in MIA?
Will the International carriers especially the Latin American airlines follow suit and abandon MIA for FLL?
Who will take the plunge and be the first to shift their operations back to MIA or just expand while keeping their FLL operations?
What will be MIA's future if this current trend continues? Major airlines pulling out or reducing their MIA flights in favor of FLL?
Is it conceivable that in the future the airlines could find FLL overpriced and congested like MIA and shift to PBI, TPA or even MCO?
At least for the foreseeable future it looks like we will not enter MIA and compete with AA. I feel we WN could be formidable competition for AA. There was speculation and the rumor mill was buzzing as recently as a year or two ago that Metro Dade (operator of MIA) would give us an incentive to set up shop at MIA with as many as six gates!
The Miami metropolitan area is so spread out that the pie is big enough for us to thrive along with our large FLL operations and give AA a run for the money. I could see us reaching into Central and the northern part of Latin America and even deep into Latin America once we take delivery of our new 737-800's and especially when we get our hands on the new 737-NE!
BDL757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4206 times:
I was thinking about something similar to this as well. At SA)">DL they have been saying that they would like to be the "#1 carrier to South America/Latin America/Caribbean". It's a great thing to strive for but far from easy. I know we've been making some gains in the region but I always wonder how would we become bigger in SA/Latin America without a hub like MIA (or even IAH) that has strong demand to the region. ATL does have a lot of flights to SA but it is definitely no MIA.
I'm sure Delta would love to set up shop there but as you pointed out it is an expensive airport to operate from. We've been posting great profits but are also focused on fiscal responsibility so I don't know whether they would want to take on a task like that. Not to mention AA is a powerhouse and will most definitely put up a fight. Plus they will emerge from bankruptcy and have even lower costs.
I am surprised though that no one has even tried to expand from MIA. I feel like this year could be very interesting!
How about MSY for DL expanding to Latin America? DL already has a decent presence at MSY.
I agree with you regarding MIA but something tells me over the next couple years FLL will get closer to MIA and eventually even surpass MIA. Since the 20 Aughts FLL seems to be the darling airport for the domestic carriers especially with us WN Jet Blue and Spirit. However, FLL's facilities at least inside are now getting dowdy and showing their age, congestion is increasing and ATC issues are on the rise. I can't imagine a facility as large as MIA banking on one monopolistic airline and the foreign carriers to take them into the future. MIA recently has been the airport on the move expanding and upgrading.
New North terminal (AA shrine) and the slightly older South terminal with the opening of J concourse.
I feel DL could make a run at AA. And if AA US merge this will open more real estate/gates at MIA. Chances are the new post merged company AA would keep their spanking new North Terminal shrine.
This would be the opportune time for Us (WN) to finally take the plunge and enter MIA. And it's also convenient with DL already ensconsed in H concourse to add gate space. From what I hear Metro Dade could entice us WN to break our MIA virginity and for DL expanding.
The way FLL is looking and feeling at least where we are WN is going to have to step up to the plate and expand and renew facilities. MIA now has the lead in that contest. The only old weak link is venerable Concourse G and to a lesser extent F pier.
Now MIA has more desireable physical facilities for the taking.
FLL's landing fees are set to more than triple by 2020 to fund expansion.
Quoting zippyjet (Thread starter): DL and US haven't changed their number of flights to the best of my knowledge.
DL has added flights, most significantly ten daily flights from Miami to New York.
In the long run, though, the status quo is fine. FLL is the primary domestic airport, MIA is the primary hub and international airport. MIA is the fastest growing major U.S. airport right now, so it's doing something right.
FlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3500 times:
Quoting BDL757 (Reply 1): I know we've been making some gains in the region but I always wonder how would we become bigger in SA/Latin America without a hub like MIA (or even IAH) that has strong demand to the region. ATL does have a lot of flights to SA but it is definitely no MIA.
A year ago I'd have thought you were spot on: You have MIA, then IAH, and even DFW and then finally ATL is trying to get a bigger piece of that LatAm market(even Charlotte to a small degree). But if you believe the industry trends in all the aviation rag sheets and the stories on this site DL is doing something right at the momemnt and UA is pissing people off left and right.
If anyone could figure out a way to screw up the LatAm ops at IAH it is United, which could give DL some oppurtunity to pick up connections at ATL or even AA at DFW (they are moving into some of UA's, formerly COs, Mexican towns now).
I think UA needs to watch themselves or DL will catch up.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
My prediction? FLL is going to be like the big three automakers were back in the 70's, take their buyers/users for granted. Produce crap that falls apart.
FLL is aging and not gracefully. It peaked during the Clinton era and something tells me they are going to rest on their laurels and not do much till well into the next decade when they will have to wholesale re-build, add and update to catch up. A lot of the domestic lcc will emigrate to PBI which will get their 30 minuts of aviation greatness in the late 20's and into the 30's.
Jet Blue and Spirit will hang on to FLL like an obsessed fan of a hottie chick actress. DL, and finally us WN will see the light and make a blitzkrieg into MIA and be ready to compete and possibly even surpass AA.
Interesting being that MIA and FLL are different counties but what would they be like if they became part of one authority like EWR, LGA and JFK as Port Aurhority of NY and NJ facilities? But it ain't happening in South Florida. MIA learned the hard way and I think they are going to bring their A game and not fall asleep and take things for granted.
Also down the line, vacationers will start tiring of MCO not the airport but the Orlando Grizwald theme park phenomina. As my generation croaks (baby boom) and Gen X, Y and Nutella get older and have less kids Orlando will finally jump the shark and South Florida will again be the dominant factors in the sunshine state. MIA will be primed, FLL will be generic, decrepit and high landing fees and ATC congestion nightmare. It's going to be interesting. This does not factor China taking us over and either destroying and taking the parts of the US or just enslaving us as their economy rocks out of control into a dominator Evil empire while we say Pleas sir can I have another. Then all bets are off. The Chinese will take Florida, push us into the Atlantic and get drones to work for .25 cents an hour.
civetfive From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3407 times:
well that got weird....
I think that despite some gains by other airlines to South America and the Caribbean from other gateways, MIA is still going to be the dominant gateway for O&D and connections.
In a few years, as more frequencies to Brazil become available and the markets in South America continue to grow, then DL would have a legit shot at making a focus city work (though I don't necessarily know if it will). But right now, anyone that want's to compete head to head against AA in MIA needs to pull a lot of resources out of a main hub, and no one seems to think that's a good use.
lucky777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3126 times:
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 6): Also down the line, vacationers will start tiring of MCO not the airport but the Orlando Grizwald theme park phenomina. As my generation croaks (baby boom) and Gen X, Y and Nutella get older and have less kids Orlando will finally jump the shark and South Florida will again be the dominant factors in the sunshine state
Was that tongue-in-cheek or were you being serious? Orlando is, and has been, the undisputed tourist capital of the world for the past 30+ years and i fail to see that changing anytime soon. The dynamics have changed in recent years, with more of an emphasis on the international traveller (think Brazil, Canada, U.K. etc...) but Orlando is also home to the 2nd largest convention center in the U.S. that hosts 1 million delegates per year. And i haven't even begun to mention the large and ever-growing Pureto Rican and Dominican putting down roots throughout Central Florida. Am i trying to compare MCO to MIA? No, but i wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Orlando's economic downfall either.
mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32794 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3101 times:
Quoting lucky777 (Reply 9): Orlando is, and has been, the undisputed tourist capital of the world for the past 30+ years and i fail to see that changing anytime soon.
Paris, Madrid and Las Vegas are among many cities that would quickly dispute yet that "fact."
It was clearly toungue in cheek, by the way.
Quoting lucky777 (Reply 9): with more of an emphasis on the international traveller (think Brazil, Canada, U.K. etc...)
"Etc." is basiclly just Ireland and Mexico. Orlando remains a very weak draw for most of the international tourist market; but it's not Orlando's fault, it's just that the majority of the world isn't as theme park obsessed as North Americans, Brits and Brazilians.
It really is. Even the newer terminal 1 is not nice. It is small and has very little to offer. The rest of the terminals have little to offer. Concourse F and E at MIA are just as nice if not better.
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 6): A lot of the domestic lcc will emigrate to PBI which will get their 30 minutes of aviation greatness in the late 20's and into the 30's.
The only LCC I can see going to PBI is Allegiant. PBI would not attract any of the core of the Miami-Dade population but FLL does. Some people still see FLL as the easy airport but that is becoming less and less true every day.
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 6): DL, and finally us WN will see the light and make a blitzkrieg into MIA and be ready to compete and possibly even surpass AA.
I would not be surprised to see WN try out MIA. There is plenty of gate space in the older concourses. As for DL we though they were building something up but ultimately it has not been much. They are clearly the 2nd largest airline in MIA and have a decent FF base here but they would need to be ready to really put up a fight against AA down here. AA would do anything to keep another airline out of MIA.
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 6): Also down the line, vacationers will start tiring of MCO not the airport but the Orlando Grizwald theme park phenomina. As my generation croaks (baby boom) and Gen X, Y and Nutella get older and have less kids Orlando will finally jump the shark and South Florida will again be the dominant factors in the sunshine state.
I don't see that happening but you do make a point of the Gen X thing. It is not as big of a deal as it used to be. And looking at economic numbers Miami has a large GDP and is easily a dominant factor in Florida. Not as many tourist of course. Disney is probably one of the biggest reasons we don't have to pay a state income tax.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
martinrpo1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2834 times:
AA has a gold mine in MIA. It is their most profitable hub for international flights and has a lot of potential to grow. MIA has strong O&D and strong connecting traffic. The new AA facilities are pretty good.
And if this goldmine brings in money then down the line it would be easier for Metro Dade to re-invest in it's airport and do the extreme airport makeover to the "central terminal" Piers E, F and especially G.
Is there any room left on the northside terminal to add another concourse? I'm thinking this because the new North terminal is all Concourse D. And, while we are at it is there any room left on the south side to expand J concourse or even build Concourse K? I'm talking way down the line.
Seems like there is no room after concourse J on the south side. There are the spots where LAN parks all their planes by J but the fuel farm is directly next to it. If there is a complete concourse E makeover there is room to expand it further West. Concourse E can certainly be made larger.
As for concourse D there is plenty of room to expand east from the old concourse A gates but that is only if AA wanted to get rid of their maintenance facilities there and that is a big IF. There is a lot of space there bu AA and other airlines need the space. I see a Councourse E development as the next major project. When? Who knows. Really gate space is already not great for AA. They will only continue to expand at MIA so maybe it is 10 years down the road.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2359 times:
Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 15): Since MIA and FLL are combined in the Consumer Airfare Reports (specifically Table 6), is there a way just to see MIA's traffic and fares?
Try table 1A, this has the breakdown of airports within a region - e.g. New York City will break down into EWR, LGA, JFK, ISP, HPN, and SWF, or Cleveland will have it broken down by CLE and CAK, and Miami will show FLL and MIA.
Table 6 here shows all city pairs with 10+ daily pax, but as you'll see, it will list e.g Pittsburgh to the New York City area. And 1A has this by Pittsburgh to the individual New York City airports. I think that this is what you are looking for......