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Another Fuel Leak On JAL 787  
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3086 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 17647 times:

What is going on?

Was a cause determined for the last leak?



TOKYO (AP) -- Japan Airlines has reported a fuel leak in a Boeing 787 Dreamliner for the second time in a week amid a U.S. safety review of the aircraft.

Narita International Airport outside of Tokyo says JAL reported a 100-liter fuel leak in a 787 during an inspection Sunday. The aircraft reportedly was the same one that had a fuel leak in Boston last week.


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-01-13-09-59-44


The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1581 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 17402 times:

Last weeks leak was attributed to a faulty valve.


BV
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5071 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 17090 times:

Guys! This is totally normal. Its a new airplane. We should start a thread that has 787 mechanical issues thread!  


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 16863 times:

Quoting 71Zulu (Thread starter):
The aircraft reportedly was the same one that had a fuel leak in Boston last week.

Perhaps we've just found the dog in JAL's 787 fleet. Every fleet has one: NW's A320 N302NW ('Christine' the Airbus from Hell) and TW L1011 N11005 (chronic landing gear issues). I'll be convinced of true 787 problems when a pattern of similar malfunctions shows up across multiple aircraft.


User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 16656 times:
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Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 3):
Every fleet has one: NW's A320 N302NW ('Christine' the Airbus from Hell

No such registration


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 16585 times:

Any issue will be blown up on the web and here where so many seem to dislike Boeing and its products. Its getting old and tired IMO.

User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 16585 times:

Quoting n471wn (Reply 4):
No such registration

N302US


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7752 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 16481 times:

In other news, I changed my underwear this morning  
Guys, read that snippet from the AVherald about all this. Fuel leaks happen all the time for a plethora of reasons. This is only sensationalist media.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15943 times:

Quoting 71Zulu (Thread starter):
Narita International Airport outside of Tokyo says JAL reported a 100-liter fuel leak in a 787 during an inspection Sunday. The aircraft reportedly was the same one that had a fuel leak in Boston last week.

Since it's the same airplane, it's far more likely that this is the same cause as the last leak and they just didn't fix it the first time. Having the same symptom on the same airplane with two independent causes is not unheard of, but it's really rare. They're probably working their way through the Fault Isolation Manual.

Tom.


User currently offlinenational757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 720 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15830 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
Guys, read that snippet from the AVherald about all this.

Can you post the link? I've looked and can't find anything on the AVherald about a 787 Fuel Leak



Formula 1 Grand Prix Trips: YUL '08, MEL '09, BCN '10, SIN '11, and LGW '12
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12069 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15719 times:

"An open valve on the aircraft caused fuel to leak from a nozzle on the left wing used to remove fuel, a company spokeswoman said."

"In Boston, a different valve on the plane opened, causing fuel to flow from the centre tank to the left main tank."

"The causes of both incidents are unknown, the JAL spokeswoman added. There is no timetable for the plane to return to service."

The whole story can be found at http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...amliner-test-idUSL4N0AI08120130113



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinefca767 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15631 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
In other news, I changed my underwear

fly by wire?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31096 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15536 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 10):
"An open valve on the aircraft caused fuel to leak from a nozzle on the left wing used to remove fuel, a company spokeswoman said."

"In Boston, a different valve on the plane opened, causing fuel to flow from the centre tank to the left main tank."

Is fueling and de-fueling performed with different attachment points to the fuel system?

If not, I wonder if both incidents involve the same valve and the nuance is being "lost in translation".

[Edited 2013-01-13 11:57:24]

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12069 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 15428 times:

The article is not very clear, I agree.

To me it sound like JAL was testing the frame and they could reproduce the Boston fuel leak.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7752 posts, RR: 18
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 15397 times:

Quoting fca767 (Reply 11):

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
In other news, I changed my underwear

fly by wire?


  



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineb78710 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14155 times:

Does the 787 have jettison capabilities?

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14156 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
In other news, I changed my underwear this morning

Someone start a thread.....

It is interesting that the 100 liters of fuel spilled at NRT is about the same amount of fuel spilled in BOS, 40 US Gallons.


User currently offlineFlexJetOKC From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13695 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16):
Does the 787 have jettison capabilities?

I'm assuming you're talking about fuel dumping? Yes, it can. Check this video out. It features testing on the Fuel Jettison System. It's pretty neat! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoDQrkSGIZc



Above the planet on a wing and a prayer, my grubby halo, a vapour trail in the empty air...
User currently onlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5253 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 12942 times:

With respect to these incidents, the fuel jettison isn't implicated. Rather, it might possibly be related to the system by which overflow is vented overboard so as to not impinge the integrity of the wing.

If you pump too much fuel into the wing tank, it goes overboard. It doesn't ask, it just goes.

This can happen because you flip the pump on to move fuel from the CWT into a wing tank that is already-full.

It can also happen on some aircraft when you are drawing fuel from the CWT to use in the engines. Because the fuel system always moves *more* fuel to the engine than it can consume (same thing with diesel engines), the excess gets returned to the fuel tank, except that it goes back to the wing tank not the center tank. Running off the center tank, you can overfill the wing tanks if you aren't careful, resulting in a stream of fuel venting overboard.

Accordingly, it seems to me that in the 40-gal Boston spill and the 25-gal recent venting, this could well be pilot error, although the airline seems to think otherwise.

It is interesting, however, that these events are happening to JAL, who put the aircraft into long-haul service very quickly, and not to ANA, which really took its time. Suggests the possibility, at least, of training hiccups.

[Edited 2013-01-13 15:03:33]

User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10756 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
In other news, I changed my underwear this morning

Where did you hear that...Fox News?


User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10236 times:

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 18):
Accordingly, it seems to me that in the 40-gal Boston spill and the 25-gal recent venting, this could well be pilot error, although the airline seems to think otherwise.

The spill at BOS was attributed to a faulty valve, according to a JAL spokesman. I also find pilot error rather unlikely as they will have been working with Boeing on the issue and yet the plane has been out of service for some 5 days now.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 18):
It is interesting, however, that these events are happening to JAL, who put the aircraft into long-haul service very quickly, and not to ANA, which really took its time. Suggests the possibility, at least, of training hiccups.

Possible, sure... anything is possible. Including the Airbus ninja striking again  


User currently offlineKC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10045 times:

Fuel leaks... no big deal! I run a hydraulic mule on KC-135s for defuels on nearly a daily basis. Reason? Fuel leaks. We've got a revovling door of 135s going through fuel cell for maintenance due to fuel leaks. Granted, 50 year old jet vs. brand new production, but when you have 30k+ gallons of fuel sloshing around it's inevitable these things will happen. Valves do go bad too. I've seen fuel venting overboard on the 135 quite a bit due to bad fuel level control valves being stuck open and overfilling a body tank, which will vent overboard when maxed out.

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10023 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Is fueling and de-fueling performed with different attachment points to the fuel system?

No. There is an independant valve that must be opened to enable defuelling but it's the same connector to the truck.

Quoting b78710 (Reply 15):
Does the 787 have jettison capabilities?

Yes.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 18):
Because the fuel system always moves *more* fuel to the engine than it can consume (same thing with diesel engines), the excess gets returned to the fuel tank, except that it goes back to the wing tank not the center tank.

No. The 787 doesn't use a return-to-tank system. The fuel pumps just deadhead against the engine. Excess fuel does not come back to the tank.

Tom.


User currently offlineKC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9990 times:

Does anyone know what they're using on the 787 for couplings? For example, do they use Marman or Wiggins fittings for joining fuel lines together? I can easily see how some new hire at the production line could incorrectly assemble something like a Marman clamp if that's what they're still using. They hold for a little while and then decide to pop catastrophically when they can't take it anymore.

User currently offlineBIZJETTECH From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9791 times:

That is why airlines employ maintenance personnel!!! Every aircraft has issues, even new ones. If the news covered every aircraft maintenance issue, nobody would ever fly again.

25 Post contains images wjcandee : Ah. Danged newfangled technology eliminating one potential reason that fuel going overboard ain't the plane's fault!! [Edited 2013-01-13 20:42:51]
26 Post contains links seahawks7757 : Let us not forget that fuel leaks was something that plagued the 787 test program too, as seen here. It happens- http://www.flickr.com/photos/seahawk.
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