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BA Better Off Without IB  
User currently offlinemartinrpo1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 63 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 15643 times:

Was the BA/IB merger a bad move for BA? Would a BA/LX or BA/KL merger made more sense and prove better economic results today?

140 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineely747 From Slovakia, joined Jan 2013, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15549 times:

Quoting martinrpo1 (Thread starter):

To my understanding the key thing for BA was to gain access into a very lucrative South American market (not sure how satisfied BA is on this front so far) I was really hoping that BA-IB tie up would bring a more enhanced network especially for the UK travellers. Having flown on IB metal 2 times (long haul and short haul) I must say that their product delivery is something one would describe as very unattractive and rather poor. BA and IB long haul product simply do not match up each other. IB's economic performance is putting a heavy burden on BA too. It's becoming very costy for IB to operate their long haul fleet. Trimming some latino routes won't put a big smile on W. Walsh's face either ... However I don't think that BA had many options at that time since AF/KL had already sealed the deal. It was a good move for MAD's strategic location. Let's hope BA will utilize this opportunity better in the end.

[Edited 2013-01-14 20:33:47]

User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15054 times:

I really think, better off without. But at the end of the day it's up to IAG to make the decision not BA although I am positive BA must have some " get out Clause"

Iberia is not a match, it was Willies attempt to get into the lucrative South America, that's all, and why has IAG not brought more airlines into the group? TAP, EI ect?.

As said above they should have paired up with KLM a few years back, a much better product and stable airline, KLM are probably thinking the same too now....


User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 889 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 14860 times:

Yes, bad move for sure. I had this very discussion last week with a friend at BA. The cultures are vastly different, the attitude to customer service is also varies wildly. My friend complained frequently of attending meetings in MAD when colleagues from IB rolled up an hour or more late for meetings, if they showed up at all.


To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 846 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14783 times:

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 2):
But at the end of the day it's up to IAG to make the decision not BA although I am positive BA must have some " get out Clause"

IAG is a listed company and IB and BA are two separate trading subsidiaries of IAG. There would be no get out clauses for BA as they technically have no say in anything to do with IB.

If at some point IAG decide that IB was a mistake and decide they don't want it in the group they would have to find a buyer or in extremis close it down.

While IBs/Spains problems might be greater than WW contemplated when the merger was first mooted many years ago I would be pretty sure he was expecting a rough ride in the early years as IAG reshapes the IB operations. In the short term the IAG group results would be a lot better off without IB but you don't buy major subsidiaries 'with problems' for short term gains but for long term benefits - such as the access it gives IAG to landing slots in Madrid [when their ability to grow Heathrow operations is severely constrained].

Maybe if BA had known of the opportunity to buy BD and so have a once in a life time chance to gain a chunk of extra LHR slots they would have been less keen to merge with IB as the BD acquisition does provide them with an [at the time] unexpected opportunity to expand into new markets.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2764 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14757 times:

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 2):
As said above they should have paired up with KLM a few years back, a much better product and stable airline, KLM are probably thinking the same too now....

Heavens...... if it were BA/KL, that would have left AF/IB, and would that be left now?

 Wow!


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14699 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 5):

Funny I was thinking that too ha ha, they would be a match made in heaven...


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 817 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14621 times:

It's easy to forget that at the time BA had very little scope for growth at LHR and had to look elsewhere for growth and BA was not in good financial shape three years ago.

BA has turned around. I don't see why Iberia can't be turned around (although it won't be easy). And the flipside there is a lot of expertise and experience of the restructuring of BA over the past ten years that can be applied to Iberia and not just cost cutting but also improving direct distribution, revenue management etc.

[Edited 2013-01-15 03:42:59]

User currently onlinecv990coronado From South Africa, joined Nov 2007, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14612 times:
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Oh if only a BA/KL deal had been done. It would have made a GREAT partnership and gone a long way to solving the 3rd runway at LHR problem. What a pity. A big loss for BA and I think KLM would have had a better future too.


SSC-707B727 737-741234SP757/762/3/772/WA300/10/319/2/1-342/3/6-880-DAM-VC10 TRD 111 Ju52-DC8/9/10/11-YS11-748-VCV DH4B L
User currently offlineely747 From Slovakia, joined Jan 2013, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14415 times:

Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 8):

Yes, definitely. KL has extensive network across the UK whereas IB is not a big player .... . the lack of runway capacity is more damaging for the UK economy. .. BA is not a victim as such. They got balls to play around ...

[Edited 2013-01-15 04:44:26]

[Edited 2013-01-15 04:45:41]

User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8482 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14321 times:

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 4):
IAG is a listed company and IB and BA are two separate trading subsidiaries of IAG. There would be no get out clauses for BA as they technically have no say in anything to do with IB.

Exactly. It may not be good for BA but it's good for IAG who are now the dominant company in the TATL market. If anyone is going to dump IB it will be IAG not BA. People need to remind themselves that IAG is not BA.


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2515 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14290 times:

Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 8):
Oh if only a BA/KL deal had been done. It would have made a GREAT partnership and gone a long way to solving the 3rd runway at LHR problem. What a pity. A big loss for BA and I think KLM would have had a better future too

Or even a BA/LX deal would have been great.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4341 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14264 times:

Spain is now in a financial recession. I think BA should just be patient and in a few years they can develop a powerhouse which will connect Europe to Latin America. The America's are and will be doing fine economically and Spain will also be back on its feet in a couple of years and then they can return to the stations they left with new A-330s which will have IFE.
Yes, Iberia has a minimal onboard product and their service mentality leaves a lot to be desired but BA was like that as well in the 1980s and they might be able to explain IB how they turned around.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14166 times:
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Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 8):
Oh if only a BA/KL deal had been done. It would have made a GREAT partnership and gone a long way to solving the 3rd runway at LHR problem. What a pity. A big loss for BA and I think KLM would have had a better future too.

KLM would have been the "pretty blond prom queen" to merge with, IB was the over weight unattractive girl. KLM-BA would have been the best merger in Europe.


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1749 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14125 times:

Quoting ely747 (Reply 9):
Yes, definitely. KL has extensive network across the UK whereas IB is not a big player .... . the lack of runway capacity is more damaging for the UK economy. .. BA is not a victim as such. They got balls to play around ...

London Schiphol airport..


Personally I think IB's weakness is their dire product... They offer a dreadful service on their long haul and short haul flights! No PTVs, and buy onboard service in economy. They need to align with their bigger brother.



Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319-BA), OSL-LHR (319-BA), LHR-CPH (320-BA), VXO-BMA (S20-TF), ARN-CPH (738-SK), CPH-LHR (320-BA)
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2723 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14043 times:

Having flown IB Business Plus on long haul routes like EZE and GRU, I can say that their hard product is really not bad. It's their people and their culture that are to their shame. So long as I can sleep and don't have to deal with their disinterested, soviet style cabin crew, It's a good flight. The only place I've ever seen this level of disinterest in passengers in a premium cabin is in the US.


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 13852 times:

But for KL it is more interesting to be with AF.

I don't think KL is unhappy with AF, and before the merger with AF, KL never had such a huge development and expansion.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 13800 times:

I would say another relevant question is: IB better off without BA? It should be noted that (contrary to BA), IB had benefits for 10 years running prior to the merger into IAG. SInce then, alas, only losses...


AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 817 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 13669 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 17):
I would say another relevant question is: IB better off without BA? It should be noted that (contrary to BA), IB had benefits for 10 years running prior to the merger into IAG. SInce then, alas, only losses...

Not this again.

So, tell us. What has BA/IAG done to make Iberia worse off?

As Iberia's highest revenue earning route is reported to be one it doesn't even operate (LHR-JFK) you could ask how much worse off it would be without BA/IAG.

[Edited 2013-01-15 06:06:19]

[Edited 2013-01-15 06:06:38]

User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 12434 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 18):
What has BA/IAG done to make Iberia worse off?

I don't know. What I reported are facts, not theories. Maybe one could ask: what has IAG done to improve IB? Invest in the fleet? No. Expand the market presence of IB? No, quite the opposite. Try to build bridges with the employees? No. Instead, all the profit in the IAG group has gone to cover the huge hole in BA's pension fund.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently onlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7619 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 12333 times:

As others have pointed out the ownership of BA as well as a poor performing IB by IAG does not really impact BA in a bad way. However it does have some direct and measurable benefits to BA operations.

For example five former BD aircraft were repainted into BA livery by IB at MAD when they could have been repainted at either LHR or EMA. So I assume BA saw some advantage in using the IB paint shop.

Another example is the BA LHR-MAD service. By transferring the late evening LHR-MAD flight to IB at the same time as the late evening IB MAD-LHR flight was transferred to BA both airlines have lowered costs by avoiding an overnight stop and the additional expenses that involves.

But this is all small beer.

If you access the "Capital Markets Presentation" made by IAG here:

http://www.iagshares.com/phoenix.zht...?c=240949&p=irol-presentations

and go to Slide 13 you will see that IAG were forecasting an increase in revenue of 180 million Euros and a Cost Saving of 90 million Euros for 2012 as recently as last November as a result of the tie up.

It is clear that at a substantial proportion of this increase in revenue and saving in costs, be it 25 per cent or 75 per cent or some other figure, must have accrued to BA. But how much we shall probably never know.


User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 12246 times:

Would I buy a ticket to South America knowing I had to transfer in Madrid and continue with Iberia? The answer is no.

Iberia is a terrible airline in terms of service and attitude and it is the last airline I'd want to spend 10 hours with.

The BA / IB tie up was a mistake. What were they thinking?

With the 787 due to BA soon, surely BA can muster the capacity on their own to operate those 'lucrative' South American routes out of LHR.


User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2784 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 12022 times:

The only solution for IB to get their act together is to completely restructure itself, putting knowleadgeable people in charge of the company, not a friend of a friend of the CEO chosen by fingerpointing.

Then create a fair working environment for the employees, ground staff, etc.

Renew their product, cabins, IFE, etc

All under guidance and supervision from BA.

and Voila! a new Iberia...

However this is Spain and that´s never going to happen.

MIAspotter.

[Edited 2013-01-15 08:51:40]


I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 817 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 11992 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 19):
I don't know. What I reported are facts, not theories. Maybe one could ask: what has IAG done to improve IB? Invest in the fleet? No. Expand the market presence of IB? No, quite the opposite. Try to build bridges with the employees? No. Instead, all the profit in the IAG group has gone to cover the huge hole in BA's pension fund.

If you understood the terms of the merger you would know that you last assertion is factually incorrect.

IAG has announced investment in the fleet. New A330s are on their way with new vastly improved economy and business class products.


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 11940 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 23):
If you understood the terms of the merger you would know that you last assertion is factually incorrect.

I do understand the terms of the merger, and what I wrote is factually correct.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 23):
IAG has announced investment in the fleet. New A330s are on their way with new vastly improved economy and business class products.

Yep. 8 A330s. Wow.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
25 LHRFlyer : So provide evidence for your assertion that all of IAG's profits have been used to fund the deficit in BA's pension fund.
26 musapapaya : Is BA that good themselves? Or LH better? They have done an awesome job turning LX round!
27 avek00 : Remember that BA's biggest reason for wanting to join forces with Iberia was to take advantage of the (theoretically) lower labor and sourcing costs o
28 MIAspotter : Maybe, with the right people and with the right means, why not. Exactly, I think LH was slightly interested in buying JK... but I guess they quickly
29 UALWN : At the time of the merger BA's pension fund had a deficit of almost €5b. IB's had no pension liability whatsoever. IB almost waked away from the me
30 LHRFlyer : Not from Iberia. The two airlines operate independently financially and do not cross subsidise each other and each airline has to raise its own funds
31 UALWN : Yet the deficit in the pension fund is now an IAG liability. Not BA's. The FTSE 100 is now at the same level it was when IB and BA merged, two years
32 factsonly : Not so sure if I would agree with this point of view. Though general cost savings and efficiency benefits apply to both BA/KL and AF/KL combinations
33 LHRFlyer : No pension funds still sit with BA, not IAG. Again, there is no evidence that BA's pension deficit has been plugged at the expense of Iberia. The mer
34 AirGabon : Not that much in Asia: 14/7 HKG, 14/7 PVG, 14/7 PEK, 21/7 NRT, 7/7 ICN, 7/7 KIX, 7/7 SIN, 5/7 SGN, 3/7 BKK + new routes in China and soon KUL. And I
35 ely747 : Not sure if someone raised this but MAD leads the table on lost luggage and so.... Although I must say I really enjoyed walking around the terminal b
36 ely747 : To what extent is this feasible? We are talking about the two countries with different cultures, whereas the Dutch and the British can get with each
37 UALWN : It has been plugged at the expense of IAG. Hence, indirectly, of IB.
38 jfk777 : KLM flies to almost as many places in Latin America as Iberia and some it does( dutch caribean). KLM flies to Caracas, Panama, Lima, Guayaquil, EZE,
39 SCL767 : KL does not operate into CCS. AF=BOG, CCS, CUN, EZE, GIG, GRU, HAV, LIM, MEX, PUJ, SCL, SDQ KL=EZE, GIG, GRU, GYE, HAV, LIM, MEX, PTY, UIO
40 factsonly : Today yes, but not at the time of the BA/KL discussions. KLM was not doing that well at that time (late 1990s) and closed many low frequency station
41 avek00 : It's highly feasible -- in fact, strategic cross-border siting of cost and income bases is key to the success of many multinational corporations. For
42 LHRFlyer : No it hasn't. You need to learn how the IAG structure works. Each airline stands on its own two feet, has its own credit identity and raises its own
43 edina : I was just about to say the same thing....you beat me to it! It's an open structure....no smoke & mirrors....
44 Post contains links UALWN : This is what Expansión, the leading Spanish business newspaper, had to say about the pension situation: http://www.expansion.com/2012/12/12/...a1886
45 ATL : Completely agree. I have no idea what BA was doing. I mean, I suppose they don't have any more space at LHR so maybe they need MAD... Aren't AA and B
46 OzGlobal : Really, you're a teenager and you've "flown on a boatload of airlines in range of classes"? Non-rev family travel?
47 yellowtail : you forgot SAL and GUA in that list
48 summa767 : Unfortunately for your arguments, the article says that it is BA that might have to increase its contributions to the pension fund. It does not say t
49 UALWN : Exactly! I'm certainly not accusing BA of transferring money to IB! Quite the opposite! The article goes on to quote an HSBC analyst: "One of the lar
50 bueb0g : From BA? Incorrect Laughable. Provide some proof.
51 UALWN : Read the article I linked above. Laughable indeed.
52 summa767 : The main reason that IAG shares have lost 40% of their value since the merger is to the bad performance of IB. Simple. The market's main concern is w
53 Post contains images autothrust : This whole thread islike a bash contest on IB, MAD, Spain. If BA looses money (or IAG shares go down) it's hardly believable it was only attributed by
54 ATL : Yes. I was privileged enough to travel around the world, and as a result fly all the time. I hope you're not actually trying to maneuver around my po
55 summa767 : Not only, but if you observe the major share price movements, are as a result of the company's performance news (where BA has made money, but IB has
56 baw716 : BA might be able to reshape IBs product, route network and operations, but... The cultural difference in service delivery is something BA can't change
57 LHRFlyer : IAG breaks down its operating results by airline. The relative performance of BA and IB is on the IAG investor relations website for all to see. IAG a
58 UALWN : That's not what that HSBC seemed to think. Of course the state of the economy has something to do with the current situation. But the economy was alr
59 AR385 : I´ve flown IB in: 1988 service was horrible, with a granny FA actually yelling at me 1996 service was horrible 2000 service was horrible 2002 service
60 edina : It's quite clear you haven't read the second part of Summa767s post in reply #53 regarding competition. As to the financial facts......they are out t
61 UALWN : Actually I did read it. I even replied to it: I guess you didn't read my reply. And I have read them. Have you?
62 Post contains links edina : Iberia's CEO doesn't blame the BA pension deficit...... Mr Sanchez-Lozano said "the Spanish and European economic crisis has impacted on Iberia, but i
63 UALWN : Mr Sánchez Lozano is not exactly IB's CEO. He's the "Consejero Delegado," which is close to a CEO but not quite. IB's real boss is Mr Antonio Vázqu
64 1400mph : Hi all. This is very interesting to read. However, when you read press like..... LONDON - International Airlines Group posted a slight rise in Decembe
65 jumpjets : I think there is a 'cultural' thing here - the Spanish contributors don't want to admit that IBs problems are combination of their own making and the
66 1400mph : I'm not sure that being 'smug' has got anything to do with it ? BA is recovering due to hard graft and the difficult implementation of new ways of do
67 UALWN : First, I'm not Spanish, although I do live in Spain. Well, in Barcelona... Second, no mater how many times you write it, it will still be false that
68 Post contains links summa767 : Look, it's simple! competition has increased from carriers that are more competitive than IB. On the reductions I can only think of Air Madrid and Ai
69 UALWN : IB posted a profit every year from 1998 until 2010 (when it merged with BA), except for 2009. You can check the filed statements. Now I'm too lazy to
70 summa767 : Just click on the links I gave you! They are in Spanish. I have looked at the filed accounts in detail before. IB has not made an operational profit
71 1400mph : The entire country of Spain posted a profit until everyone realised it was all built on debt. Not having a go at Spain.....god knows they weren't alo
72 Post contains links UALWN : Why should I waste my time on those when one can easily find the yearly financial statements? http://www.es.iairgroup.com/phoenix....html?c=240950&am
73 1400mph : IB's losses are irrelevant to BA. IB could go bust tonight they would not drag BA down with them. Believe me, the financial markets would be far less
74 UALWN : I don't see what this has to do with anything but anyway. Do you happen to know the debt of Spain as a fraction of GDP in October 2012 (latest number
75 Post contains links summa767 : OK, €5 m profit for one year andit includes third party mx and handling. Well done Iberia! Way to go! I must correct my statement above to "Iberia h
76 UALWN : Then why on earth are we having a thread titled "BA better off without IB"??
77 PRAirbus : Why does it seem any "merger or consolidation" attempts by BA get messy? BA/US, BA/KL (proposed?). Perhaps it's a coincidence and sure many facts are
78 UALWN : So that would leave 2009 and 2010, since in 2011 it was already merged with BA. How exactly have you disproved that? 12 out 13 years being profitable
79 1400mph : Unfortunately for Spain it's not about debt it's about far more going out of the government coffers than is 'now' coming in. To say it is unsustainab
80 UALWN : Tha'ts called deficit. And it's what creates the debt. So if the UK has more debt it must mean thatn it the past it must have run higher deficits. In
81 summa767 : and so totally disproving your point that IB was profitable until it merged with BA. There is nothing to disprove. The accounts are there. Each compa
82 VV701 : The deficit or surplus in any pension fun is determined by the market value of the fund's underlying assets. As of 1 June 2010 the FTSE 100 Index sto
83 Post contains links UALWN : Really? Check here: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cac...4102012-AP/EN/2-24102012-AP-EN.PDF But the merger took place in January 2011, when the FTS
84 1400mph : UALWN...the bottom line is that IB has the potential to be a great airline with healthy books. I'm sure you would agree. Willie Walsh and his team kno
85 UALWN : Actually, I'm not so sure about that. This may come as a shock to some but I do all I can to avoid flying IB: I can't stand the attitude of their FAs
86 Post contains links summa767 : Yes, really. I clicked and all I found was the data for Q2 last year. I already provided more up to date figures. here are more: Spain Q3 2012 : 79.5
87 UALWN : Uh? The link above only repeats the 76% for Q2 2012 I already mentioned. No. The UK treasury uses a different method to measure the debt. The EU link
88 VV701 : And? What possible relevance is the date of the implementation of the merger? No actuarial evaluation of the BA Pension Funds was carried out in Janu
89 summa767 : But it gives a government forecast for the end of the year. If the UK uses a different measure, I am not about to argue that. But what is true is tha
90 UALWN : The point is to see how the pension deficit has evolved since the merger, not since 7 months before the merger.
91 UALWN : Where? I don't see it. Uh? I didn't bring the debt up. I was just replying to post #71. And I started my reply (#74) saying that I thought debt was i
92 summa767 : Here you go: That, against all evidence. That such an idea is in your head must be otherwise explained. You tell me why you believe that IB's losses
93 UALWN : Maybe you misunderstood, or I didn't make myself clear. You, in reply #48, mentioned that the BA pension fund administrators forbid BA from sending m
94 summa767 : IB was not healthy at all. Historical losses in 2009 and no operational profit in 2010. and in 2008 only scraped through. That is NOT a healthy opera
95 UALWN : By the standards of aviation as a whole, it certainly is. Any profit (in 2008 and 2010) is. Now, by comparison with BA's performance in the same peri
96 summa767 : Stellar it certainly is not. You fail to grasp that in 2009 the loss was huge! and that 2010 there was *no* profit from operations, but a loss. Not h
97 UALWN : You seem fixated with operating profits/losses, which, while relevant, fail to take into account many financial issues,like BA's provisions for its p
98 summa767 : BA, as it has already been mentioned has increased its contributions to the fund, which counts as an expenditure and so it is accounted before the bo
99 UALWN : Good. I was pointing out that the operating profits you quoted do not take these provisions into account, and, therefore, do not tell the whole pictu
100 bueb0g : I'm sure they're very informed. The BA pension deficit fund is relevant to BA and only BA. IB's losses are basically irrelevant to BA. There is no ne
101 UALWN : By me, and as a rhetorical question.
102 summa767 : No operational profit in 2010, a huge operational (and net) loss in 2009 and just 5m operational profit does not make for a healthy airline as you cl
103 UALWN : You are mixing things up... again. IB made a tiny (€3m, from memory) operational loss in 2010, but an overall profit. Was the loss it from flying?
104 Post contains links summa767 : Not right. The overall operational loss was €26m., made up of €3m recurent, $23m non-recurrent http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...L/24/240949
105 r2rho : Right now is probably a better time to consolidate & optimize existing routes than expand... but not to retreat either (and give away market to c
106 UALWN : The non-recurrent part is due to one-off exceptional items. The relevant number is (€3m). It is easy to assume this, but not to conclude it. In any
107 VV701 : This is simply impossible. This is because there was no actuarial evaluation of the pension funds at the date of the merger. So neither you nor I nor
108 1400mph : ?? Even if BA never adds another slot to its LHR portfolio with over 50% LHR will 'always' be the jewel in IAG's crown ! (and Oneworld for that matte
109 Post contains links summa767 : Of course it is, and it's on black and white in IB's report for 2010 anyway: http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...L/24/240949/Informe_Anual_2010.pd
110 UALWN : I have nothing to add to my previous reply. Now spin away. I'm out.
111 summa767 : I am not surprised. I have proven that the claims about IB being profitable before the merger are false, but further, that IB has not made profit fro
112 UALWN : Sorry, sir, I don't know what's your problem, but no, you haven't proven that:
113 summa767 : Just have a look at the figures. 2009 huge loss. And no profit from transport of pax/cargo since 2007. I am sorry to other readers for having to be r
114 UALWN : And yet they did come about after the merger with BA. For whatever reason.
115 summa767 : Yeah right. Fortunately the facts are now on the table, so rigorous minds know your suggestions to be anything other than objective. Historic losses
116 Post contains links 1400mph : 17th January... Markets: IAG helps push market to fresh high. British Airways owner IAG flew to the top of the FTSE 100 risers’ board yesterday on r
117 Post contains images UALWN : Wrong again: IB's loss in 2009 was €273m. You can keep calling it historical, you can call it whatever you want, but a) it was a one-year loss in t
118 summa767 : €273 net, but operational was €475. Not healthy by any measurement and that was *before* the merger with BA. So stop spreading inuendo about Iber
119 EagleBoy : I think the current financial crisis and massive unemployment in Spain may be more of a factor than joining IAG. Its not as if IAG are stealing the p
120 Post contains images 1400mph :
121 Post contains images UALWN : Oh, but you didn't say you meant operational. Anyway, you're still fixated with the operational loss. Who knows why. Maybe because it shows IB in a p
122 1400mph : IB didn't 'join' IAG. BA and IB created IAG together and mutually much as Air France and KLM created Air France-KLM etc Which routes ?
123 summa767 : Because operational reflects the performance of its core activities. In any case a €273m LOSS (before the merger, I just remind you one more time)
124 r2rho : That is correct for most cases. But not for example, for LatAm-EU or NorthAmerica-Africa traffic, for which Middle Eastern carriers are not suitable,
125 1400mph : Good point but I think you underestimate the growth that is still available at LHR considering BA's enhanced presence and the introduction of the A38
126 par13del : Most people when they talk about the future growth potential of LHR are not talking about BA, they are talking about LHR, procedural adjustments in o
127 bueb0g : And others. Figures. Well, you hadn't seemed to have worked it out. Why do you keep coming back to this? This thread was denounced very early on as h
128 rutankrd : Disagree the two are inextricably linked. Other growth (None oneworld alliance) could and will take place elsewhere. O&D traffic for none aligned
129 1400mph : That's quite a remarkable thing to say. BA now has massive growth potential at LHR, more so than any other carrier. Who are they talking about ? As t
130 UALWN : Cute. Cuter. You've earned a lollipop. Contragulations.
131 par13del : To a point, BA just increased their slots by purchase of a defunct carrier, how many new slots has the airport been able to add, that will ultimately
132 LJ : And UX which currently is in many of the important MAD - Latin America market... It's lookinmg as if IB is losing its grip on the Latin America somew
133 1400mph : One LAX instead of two. One SFO instead of two. One MIA instead of two. Shall I go on........ Frequency is important when multiple flights leave thro
134 LJ : However this also applies to SFO, LAX, BOS and MIA, all of which have departurees scattered over the day. I doubt that BA wants to loose its competit
135 1400mph : No they don't. You cannot scatter 2 flights throughout the day. (I didn't mention Boston ?) ?? From an economy class or premium economy and business
136 SCL767 : Yes, IB has serious issues and IB's unions seem to be in denial about these issues. Should BA and/or LA launch LHR-SCL, many pax traveling between SC
137 LJ : LAX: dep at 09:40, 12:05 and 16:15 (and an AA flight at 14:00). The competition offers only two daily (in the mormikng and afternoon) SFO: dep at 11:
138 1400mph : You're missing the point. In future the BA A380's at LHR will enable the carrier to capture more of the market with less flights. The amount of peopl
139 VV701 : BA are configuring their 380s for 469 passengers with 303 Y Class seats (F14 / J97 / W55 / Y303). Currently BA operate twice daily to both MIA and SF
140 Post contains links 1400mph : http://www.standard.co.uk/business/m...it-calms-spain-unions-8467173.html Market round-up: British Airways’ owner takes off as it calms Spain unions
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