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UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets  
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3094 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 28630 times:

Press release here: http://m.prnewswire.com/news-release...tar-winglet-program-186934521.html

Kinda looks like the winglets on the MAX.

63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUnited885 From Germany, joined Apr 2011, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 28509 times:

It looks like the sharklet programm of Airbus.
They offer the new winglet type for "old" aircrafts. Why not?
Sole differnece seems for me, that Boeing adds the "scimitar" winglets as a modification on allready delivered aircrafts while airbus offers the sharklets mainly for new builded units. Both are anticipated characteristics of the comming MAX and NEO´s.



I haven´t been everywhere, but it´s on my list.
User currently offlinetjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2507 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 28481 times:

It's going to make it difficult to quickly differentiate between a 739NG with the Scimitar winglets and the new MAX 9.....  confused 

They sure look cool on the -700:

http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnfull/20130115/SF42472

[Edited 2013-01-15 06:54:55]


Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2744 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 28240 times:

Looks good indeed. I was sure Boeing would offer these new winglets to the 737NGs.


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1828 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 28153 times:

I wonder what the price tag is on these. If it truly saves 45k gallons, that's about $150k per airplane per year.

User currently onlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1912 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 28110 times:

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 3):
It's going to make it difficult to quickly differentiate between a 739NG with the Scimitar winglets and the new MAX 9...

Not really. In the MAX winglet, both upward- and downward - pointing part originate right at the leading edge of the wing. The scimitar winglet's downward pointing part is moved back a little towards trailing edge. If you look carefully, you'll catch the difference very easily.

Besides, I believe the shape is different, when looking from the front.



Now get your f***ing Jumbo Jet off my airport!!! - AC/DC "Ain't No Fun To Be a Millionaire"
User currently offlinecosyr From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 28070 times:

Could these have the same benefit for Airbus as they do for Boeing? If so, it seems like Airbus is a big step behind with their sharklet. Funny though, that these seem inspired by Airbus' current, but smaller winglets.

User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 731 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 28012 times:

Differences between both split winglets :

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-opinions-on-737-wing-tips-375348/


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 27993 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 6):
Not really. In the MAX winglet, both upward- and downward - pointing part originate right at the leading edge of the wing. The scimitar winglet's downward pointing part is moved back a little towards trailing edge. If you look carefully, you'll catch the difference very easily.

The MAX will also have larger engines with chevrons on the nacelle, a larger metal intake similar to the 787, and a different tail cone. Won't be easy from far away but shouldn't be too difficult either.

I'm curious too what the pricetag on these is. I imagine UA got a good deal by launching the program, but the oldest 738s were delivered in 1998 IIRC...seems they will be around for a while yet.


User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1368 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 27951 times:

Quoting cosyr (Reply 7):
Funny though, that these seem inspired by Airbus' current, but smaller winglets.

They kind of remind me of the MD-11 winglet, which has a small downward-pointing structure also. Of course, these are different, in that they are quite a bit bigger.


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 27936 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 5):
I wonder what the price tag is on these. If it truly saves 45k gallons, that's about $150k per airplane per year.

Didn't Airbus say they studied this kind of split tip and found no benefit vs the blended winglet? It certainly begs the question what incremental value UA sees in these winglets vs the blended winglets they replace   


User currently offlineneutronstar73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 27769 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 11):
Didn't Airbus say they studied this kind of split tip and found no benefit vs the blended winglet? It certainly begs the question what incremental value UA sees in these winglets vs the blended winglets they replace

Perhaps Boeing and AP have done a little more work on their CFD and figured out a more appropriate solution to getting the benefits they wanted?


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 27705 times:

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 3):
It's going to make it difficult to quickly differentiate between a 739NG with the Scimitar winglets and the new MAX 9.....

Look for the chevrons and the longer tail cone.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 7):
Funny though, that these seem inspired by Airbus' current, but smaller winglets.
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 10):
They kind of remind me of the MD-11 winglet

Correct.

Also the scimiter winglets are to add some 2500 lbs to the payload of the B-738NG, or about 75 nm in range.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/aviati...eing-launches-split-140000475.html


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 731 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 27575 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 9):
I'm curious too what the pricetag on these is

approximately $545K

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/products_list_prices.php


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 27538 times:

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 12):
Perhaps Boeing and AP have done a little more work on their CFD and figured out a more appropriate solution to getting the benefits they wanted?

The fact that Boeing and APB came to this same conclusion independently (the MAX winglets are not APB design) lends confidence that there is some substance to their claims.

APB has apparently also validated the design in flight testing: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_11_01_2012_p0-512660.xml

Honestly I think they look kind of ugly, but if it saves money that doesn't really matter.


User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 353 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 27395 times:

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 3):
It's going to make it difficult to quickly differentiate between a 739NG with the Scimitar winglets and the new MAX 9..... confused

Not to worry, the Max will be easily recognized by its redesigned APU tail cone.  


User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 901 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 27167 times:

I guess we'll see them on Airbus planes in the next 10 or so years too like the blended winglets finally making it into the A320 product line...

User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 27143 times:

Quoting United885 (Reply 2):
It looks like the sharklet programm of Airbus.
They offer the new winglet type for "old" aircrafts. Why not?
Sole differnece seems for me, that Boeing adds the "scimitar" winglets as a modification on allready delivered aircrafts while airbus offers the sharklets mainly for new builded units. Both are anticipated characteristics of the comming MAX and NEO´s.


From what I can recall, Boeing's "dual feather" for the MAX is not retrofit-table on earlier 737s.
The similar looking "scimitar" is independently offered by APB for the current NGs.



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5855 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 27083 times:

The news release is very vague about which ships will get the retrofit. APB lists the configurations they hope to certify eventually, but doesn't indicate which ones UA will actually take, other than the -800 with structural provisions and the -900ER.

Any further info?


User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1664 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 26769 times:

Aviation partners BOEING develop and show a new (patented) scimitar split wingtip then later Boeing show a split wingtip (but not scimitar - which I imagine is the patent bit). And both (Boeings) arrived at the same conclusion by accident? Hardly.

Of course the concept of the split wingtip is not patentiable as MD did it years ago. But as above if it lowers drag and saves fuel - who cares.

But it does make Airbus look oh so yesterday! They really should look at the A380 (80Mtr box accepted). Would probably also help their aircraft seperation issues too.


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 731 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 26622 times:

Boeing split winglet for the MAX looks like a new design for a new frame but APB split scimitar winglet looks more like a modified blended winglets (best for retrofit)

APB split scimitar winglet on a BBJ for flight test
http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/images/img_splitscimitar1.jpg


User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3094 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 26321 times:

Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

"the structurally provisioned and non-provisioned 737-700, 737-800, 737-BBJ, the structurally provisioned 737-900 and the 737-900ER. The initial FAA certification program will be for retrofit conversion of Blended Winglets on 737-800 aircraft that were delivered with wings structurally provisioned for Blended Winglets at time of delivery from the Boeing Next-Generation 737 production line ..."


User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 981 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 26301 times:

I'm glad AP has already found a customer, but I wonder just how low the lower/downward winglet hangs. That is, does it hang low enough to be at risk of a collision with bag carts?


My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 26280 times:

Winglets on drugs! Not only do the winglets go up AND down, but the winglets have little wingletees...  

User currently offlineflyabr From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 26709 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 15):
Honestly I think they look kind of ugly, but if it saves money that doesn't really matter.

I don't know. To my eye the APB winglets have more design "flare". they just look more artistic.  


25 DocLightning : Also: Why does the APB winglet have a different shape than the Boeing model? What would be the advantages and disadvantages? And is the new winglet s
26 United_fan : I'm sure ground crews will have to be more careful driving near the lower winglet part.
27 flightsimer : I think the opposite. I think the Boeing winglets look better than the APB ones.
28 ryanov : I believe modifications are needed to the wing to allow for winglets. Those that already had the modifications (strengthening?), I'm guessing.
29 seabosdca : Early in the 737NG's run, Boeing modified the wing structure to allow for easy installation of the original APB blended winglets. "Structurally provi
30 yeelep : A wing that was originally delivered without the structural modifications incorporated to allow winglets is different than one that was. Even after t
31 Post contains images CM : I think this change occurred around Line #400 in 737 NG production.
32 Tdan : Those look freaking cool!!!! I'm curious how much of a range boost they'll give them since UA (and CO before it) literally maxes out the range and pay
33 DocLightning : The site says only a 75nm boost in range, but 2,500 lb in payload.
34 1337Delta764 : I hope DL decides to go with these on their new 739ERs.
35 Tdan : Payload is huge for UA. UIO and TGU restrictions might be gone as a result.
36 Post contains images lightsaber : From the OP link: the program will consist of retrofitting existing Boeing Next Generation 737 Blended Winglets by replacing the aluminum winglet tip
37 Crj 900 : Personally i think they're ugly. I wish they would put the raked wingtips, like the 777.[Edited 2013-01-15 13:09:23]
38 UA735WL : ?????? I'm pretty sure that the 739ER does not have raked wingtips, just regular winglets. The only 737 variant w/raked wingtips is the 738 derived P
39 JoeCanuck : I really appreciate a clever design. The folks at APB took their already efficient and popular blended winglet and made it better. Not only that, they
40 817Dreamliiner : What are you talking about???? The 739ER has winglets, not raked wingtips. Your probably thinking of the P-8, even so, the 739ER isnt a small subflee
41 1337Delta764 : The 737-900ER does NOT have raked wingtips. Blended winglets are a standard feature on the 739ER, and according to the posted article there are plans
42 FriendlySkies : And UA will have about 150-200 of them before the first MAX arrives...these things will be on the 739ER, I'd put money on it.
43 Post contains images clickhappy : Here is another angle:
44 m1m2 : I was thinking the same thing. How far would the lower part be from the ground?
45 JoeCanuck : Since I doubt the MAX wingtip design has been frozen yet, I wonder if the Boeing design ends up with a more scimitarish tip. Even though Boeing and AP
46 Roseflyer : Winglets get confusing. The 900ER was certified with winglets. They are standard on that model. The 737-800 wing was made capable of supporting wingl
47 TZTriStar500 : From someone who has had his share of dealing with 'ramp-rash', those will get hit before they are gotten used to. Like the MD-11, 747-400 and the bl
48 CM : Yes. The strengthening was for the baseline wing, to accommodate winglets, but you still got the stronger wing even if you did not take winglets.
49 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : The original blended winglet was more than 8' above the ground at the wingtip, at MTOW. So, it looks like the new lower winglet portion is about 6' ab
50 Max Q : Looks like it would be easy to scrape the lower part of this new winglet with a wing down in a crosswind !
51 CODC10 : Interesting thought... I've seen some close calls with conventional wingtips. I'm sure this will be designed to shear while minimizing damage.
52 KLASM83 : Since APB is able to make modifications to the existing winglet structure, my educated guess (or biased hope) is that perhaps they can make this new S
53 seabosdca : Unlikely, in my opinion. The 757 just doesn't have enough frames that will be in service for enough more years to make the investment worthwhile. (Ye
54 infiniti329 : It will be a matter on time before Boeing markets this to their largest 737 operator WN... and WN may just bite esp. for our 738's
55 Dash8Driver16 : Well the Washington Corp BBJ looks good with the split scimitars. I know Gratzer has done the design calculations for the Airbus but it was never take
56 DocLightning : Can someone explain to me the aerodynamics in somewhat detailed, (but quantitative as possible!) terms? What is the advantage to the downward airfoil?
57 rampbro : They will have to ensure the wing tip cone is well placed, and avoid driving under the wing. The policy and training material should surely be update
58 Post contains images lightsaber : Oops. That what I get for working in the defense industry. Thank you. So that moves the 739ER up on the list. Thank you. I suspected as much, but I w
59 Planemaker : Just in case people are not aware, "grandpa" Washington (retired and mainly in Montana) was one of the founders of Aviation Partners. He has a son at
60 Darksnowynight : In your defense, it's an easy mistake to make. IIRC, the P8 does have the same wing as the 739ER. So if that's how you knew it by, it is a somewhat l
61 Post contains images neutrino : It's just a little slip of his saber.
62 777way : So ugly ,just as one gets used to a type another deformity pops up, thank goodneess I'm not as passionate about aircraft anymore,
63 Derik737 : Add 378 more for the 738. -700 is a different story.
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