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ANA B787 Emergency Landing/Fleet Grounding Part 2  
User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2810 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26837 times:
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This is a continuation of Part 1 which got quite long. Part 1 can be found here ANA B787 Emergency Landing and Fleet Grounding (by eksath Jan 15 2013 in Civil Aviation)
Thanks
Blue


All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
248 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7785 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26857 times:

Ok since my reply was last in the other one and because I added information to it ill repost it here:


-
I just finished translating an article from the Asahi Shimbun, another major news source in Japan.
http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0116/TKY201301160371.html?ref=rss

Please bear with me as its a lot of information.
On the morning of the 16th, NH 692, JA804A, took off from Yamaguchi Airport in Ube, at 8:28 local.
30 minutes into flight, the pilot flying contacted ATC in Fukuoka (FUK) and stated there was smoke in the cockpit, with a slight English anomaly: "cockpit in smoke."
Passengers reported that smoke began appearing in the cabin at the same time.
A gradual descent was initiated.
Sensors on board detected serious smoke in the cargo hold under the main cabin.
The actual lithium ion battery by the APU indeed failed as it overheated as established from other sources.
No power output therefore could occur. Auxilillary batteries would have had to been activated.
Because of that, and the smoke not subsiding, the pilots requested emergency landing at TAK, as it would have been right by TAK at that time.
Descent and landing took about 10 minutes, which passengers described as extremely tense and nervous. By this time the whole cabin was filled with an acrid smell.

The plane, as we have established, made its successful emergency landing on the runway and pulled off to a runway exit and evacuated using emergency slides. 1 person was taken to the hospital with hip injuries and other abrasion related injuries were treated on site. Smoke subsided in the cabin after landing but poured from an outflow valve while on the ground.

TAK was closed but I think they towed ship 804 to a remote for investigation. I'll check later when the airports normally open if TAK is open for business today.

Please refer to this for updated news and factual information. But as for the Japanese public, they're quite shaken by this. The Asahi Shimbun is calling this a strange anomaly, which are words which could create nervousness among the society.


Please excuse any erroneous translation, as my Japanese isn't the best. This took about 30 minutes to do.

Non translation references:
Ube Airport in Yamaguchi has the IATA code of UBJ with runway 7/35 as 2500 m, 8,202 f.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31132 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26843 times:
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To (partially) recap, an NH 787 (JA804A) delivered exactly one year prior gave the flight crew indications of a possible issue with the Ship's (main) Battery located in the Forward Equipment Bay under the flight deck. There was a report of a "strange smell" in the flight deck and cabin. The flight crew chose to divert to TAK and once they cleared the active runway, they stopped the plane and ordered an emergency evacuation via slide. One person was injured (I believe during the evacuation). The Ship's Battery showed signs of discoloration and the electrolysis solution had leaked.

NH and JL have subsequently grounded their 787 fleets. At this time, all other 787 operators are continuing to fly the plane. A QR 787 flight was cancelled prior to departure from LHR, but it appears other QR 787 flights are operating.

[Edited 2013-01-16 09:57:26]

User currently offlineCO953 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26789 times:

If the translated article is correct, and yesterday's incident indeed was the APU battery - the second one in a week- what arguments are there to be made, not to ground all 787s until this issue is resolved?

Deciding to keep flying the 787 until investigations are complete and just pop the slides and evacuate pax if a problem arises would be inconvenient for passengers and crew, plus the expense of repacking slides, no?

Just asking for discussion's sake - not advocating either way.

[Edited 2013-01-16 09:53:52]

[Edited 2013-01-16 09:54:36]

[Edited 2013-01-16 09:54:53]

[Edited 2013-01-16 09:58:11]

EDIT: See an automatic translation I just did, below. I do not see APU battery listed?


[Edited 2013-01-16 10:11:14]

User currently offlinelhrnue From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26747 times:

I am looking forward to read how Randy tries to give a positive spin to this incident.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7785 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26703 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
The flight crew chose to divert to TAK and once they cleared the active runway, they stopped the plane and ordered an emergency evacuation via slide. One person was injured (I believe during the evacuation).

Yes during evacuation. Other abrasions were treated on site.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
a possible issue with the Ship's (main) Battery located in the Forward Equipment Bay under the flight deck. There was a report of a "strange smell" in the flight deck and cabin, but reports of smoke inside the flight deck and/or cabin have not been confirmed (and may have been erroneously reported).

Was it main? The articles I've seen said it was APU. Smoke was confirmed by Asahi and Yomiuri reports by the fire department and pax interviews.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently onlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3689 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26659 times:

Given the large discrepencies between posts #2 and #3, I'd say we don't really know much yet.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31132 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26676 times:
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Quoting CO953 (Reply 3):
If the translated article is correct, and yesterday's incident indeed was the APU battery - the second one in a week- what arguments are there to be made, not to ground all 787s until this issue is resolved?

Reports say the problem was with the Ship's (main) Battery, which is located under the flight deck. Reports also say that the battery showed signs of discoloration and electrolysis solution leakage.

As to why not ground the fleet? Based on the evidence presented to date, neither issue appears to have been one that would have resulted in a hull loss and the risk of injury or fatality. In the case of the APU battery fire, the containment box looks to have done it's job based on pictures of it and of the installation area on the 787. In the case of this incident, there were reports of "leakage and discoloration", but no reports of fire or combustion/thermal damage. In no way am I implying that either incident was not serious or that there are grounds for concern that they happened. They need to be investigated both as separate incidents and to see if there is any correlation between them and that is what is happening.


Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
Was it main? The articles I've seen said it was APU. Smoke was confirmed by Asahi and Yomiuri reports by the fire department and pax interviews.

That's what AviationWeek was reporting earlier. They also originally reported that there were no signs of smoke in the cabin, but that is no longer present so they may have edited to reflect the information provided by the Japanese papers.


Quoting mham001 (Reply 6):
Given the large discrepencies between posts #2 and #3, I'd say we don't really know much yet.

I'm recapping all of the discussion in the original thread, which includes multiple news reports posted at different times, so I expect there to be confusion and contradiction as more and correct(ed) information is posted.

[Edited 2013-01-16 10:13:45]

User currently offlineCO953 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26540 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Reports say the problem was with the Ship's (main) Battery, which is located under the flight deck. Reports also say that the battery showed signs of discoloration and electrolysis solution leakage.


Asahi Shinbun is a very respected news source, but maybe the reporter confused it with the earlier incident and got it wrong.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7785 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26545 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 6):
Given the large discrepencies between posts #2 and #3, I'd say we don't really know much yet.


I'll have to say though its all preliminary and i will keep cross checking my sources. This happened 16 hours ago of course we don't know much.

My sources did indeed say there was smoke on board and leakage occurred. I'll have to double check to see if it said anything about battery location.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):

Reports say the problem was with the Ship's (main) Battery, which is located under the flight deck. Reports also say that the battery showed signs of discoloration and electrolysis solution leakage.

Is the main also operated by lithium? If so I will go back and re translate.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26503 times:

Quoting CO953 (Reply 3):

The translated article contradicts itself and can't be trusted. Reads like a reporter jumping to conclusions without understanding the role of the batteries, their locations, etc. reporter WANTS it to be APU battery, as it makes a better story, but its a different problem than the APU. If the same company makes both batteries, it points to a manufacturing defect. Or it could be maintenance issues. The test birds did not have these problems but were maintained by Boeing, not airlines, and likely had pre-production batteries.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31132 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26451 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Is the main also operated by lithium? If so I will go back and re translate.

Yes it is of the same composition and manufacturer as the APU battery. I believe it is of a higher capacity, however.


User currently offlineCO953 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26327 times:

Here is the automatic Babylon translation of that Asahi Shinbun article:


give off a stench Boeing 787 aircraft, emergency landing fall gradually

give off a stench on the flight altitude, lowering the vehicle. The trouble with the state-of-the-art machines that could lead to an accident, a very serious abnormalities. Takamatsu Airport on Wednesday morning, made an emergency landing in Boeing 787 aircraft. Passengers who want to escape the tension tens of minutes. Yamaguchi Ube Airport is approximately 30 minutes after the 8:28 am ANA, 1,692 flights from Fukuoka air traffic control of wireless. smoke in the cockpit." Many of the cockpit of the instrument and the abnormalities were notified. At the bottom of the vehicle ahead in the electric room, the smoke detector battery failure. ... Takamatsu airport to the pilot of the emergency landing.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7785 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26330 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 12):
The translated article contradicts itself and can't be trusted. Reads like a reporter jumping to conclusions without understanding the role of the batteries, their locations, etc. reporter WANTS it to be APU battery, as it makes a better story, but its a different problem than the APU. If the same company makes both batteries, it points to a manufacturing defect. Or it could be maintenance issues. The test birds did not have these problems but were maintained by Boeing, not airlines, and likely had pre-production batteries.

Please realize what I translated was copied down sentence by sentence into a notebook and cross checked with a number of other references. I then organizes the article sentences into a readable report. I am not saying it was the APU which caught but I will concede that one or two words may have took me off a bit, especially in regards to where the battery was located.

Upon further reference check I will say I didn't read that right and it indeed was the main battery which had issues, and the APU itself was activated to facilitate the descent, controls, landing, and evacuation. Thats what I got mixed up. See this sentence:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
The actual lithium ion battery by the APU indeed failed as it overheated as established from other sources.
No power output therefore could occur. Auxilillary batteries would have had to been activated.

So for records sake please make that correction.

Quoting CO953 (Reply 13):
Here is the automatic Babylon translation of that Asahi Shinbun article:

.........what the heck was that?

I speak Japanese to a high degree and also can read it well, but for aiding purposes I used a site called rikai which helps me translate words I don't know, in the context of the rest of the article. I don't use google translate or anything like that.

[Edited 2013-01-16 10:14:51]


我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 603 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26269 times:

I have posted this in the other forum several times, but apparently people either disregard or don't see it ...

ANA has stated that there was no smoke in the cockpit or cabin of the 787.

According to ANA, a battery alert was indicated in the cockpit, and a strange smell was detected in both the cockpit and the cabin. At that point, the pilots decided to make an emergency landing.

Quote:
Earlier reports that smoke was seen in the cockpit were inaccurate, ANA said. The pilots also received a warning that there was a fault in the battery system. ANA said the battery in the forward cargo hold was the same type as the one involved in a fire on another Dreamliner at a US airport last week.

"There was a battery alert in the cockpit and there was an odd smell detected in the cockpit and cabin, and [the pilot] decided to make an emergency landing," said Osamu Shinobe, an ANA vice president, at a news conference.



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2878 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26265 times:

Quoting CO953 (Reply 13):

Thanks a lot. But., man, there sure is some work left to do on those automatic translators...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26231 times:

Quoting AA94 (Reply 15):
ANA has stated that there was no smoke in the cockpit or cabin of the 787.

I didn't see them state this anywhere, only that they wouldn't confirm it.

Various passengers have now been quoted in several publications as saying there was smoke in the cabin, and we in fact saw smoke in the video of the evacuation. There was smoke.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineCO953 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26174 times:

Yeah, translating Japanese to English doesn't look like a job for automatic translators, does it? I thought I would just plug it in to see what came out. Note that it did say "forward" part of the aircaft.

User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3643 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26184 times:
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tdscanuck.. I know you're monitoring the thread.. or Stitch or CM
Question
is there an optional battery available?(either by manufacturer or different composition). or was this battery sole sourced?

Also, have we received any indication that the bad batteries may have come from a single manufacturing lot like the circuit boards?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31132 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26138 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
The actual lithium ion battery by the APU indeed failed as it overheated as established from other sources. No power output therefore could occur. Auxilillary batteries would have had to been activated.

For clarification's sake for this statement by the reported, the APU battery only starts the APU and then only if there are no other power sources. Since the engines were turning, they would have been used to start the APU even if the APU battery was working fine. And since the engines were turning, the APU was not necessary (though NH procedure may have called for it to be started, anyway, as a backup).

Quoting kanban (Reply 19):
is there an optional battery available?(either by manufacturer or different composition). or was this battery sole sourced?

If the Ship's Battery did indeed stop providing power, the APU battery would not have taken up the load as it is not designed to do so. In this specific case, the engine generators would have provided power, perhaps along with the APU if it had been started.



Quoting kanban (Reply 19):
Also, have we received any indication that the bad batteries may have come from a single manufacturing lot like the circuit boards?

I have not seen any information as of yet, but it is, IMO, critical to know in terms of the investigation. I'd also like to know how long this battery has been in the plane - has it been there all 52 weeks, or was it recently replaced?

[Edited 2013-01-16 10:20:18]

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7785 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26136 times:

Quoting AA94 (Reply 15):
According to ANA, a battery alert was indicated in the cockpit, and a strange smell was detected in both the cockpit and the cabin. At that point, the pilots decided to make an emergency landing.

When it comes to Japanese investigations, I trust the reports released by the ministry of transportation and other public departments, such as fire, NPA, and the like, over what's released by the company itself. The company may be saying this only to save its reputation or prevent fear from spreading, which tends to happen quite a bit in japan.

Since the Asahi got its sources from public reports, including what was reported to ATC FUK, I'm sticking by my articles and translation until I hear otherwise.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):

I see, thanks for that. I'm not an expert on the mechanics of the 787. I'm guessing the energy from the engines would have been fine enough to power it to landing.

[Edited 2013-01-16 10:20:46]


我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1150 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26134 times:

Quoting CO953 (Reply 3):
If the translated article is correct, and yesterday's incident indeed was the APU battery - the second one in a week- what arguments are there to be made, not to ground all 787s until this issue is resolved?

I'd say it doesn't matter which battery it was, even two in a week (with none preceding) is a ordinary if unfortunate statistical cluster. Batteries can melt themselves into ash and as long as it's contained properly it's not really a safety-of-flight issue, and hence not (as far as I can tell) a reason for a fleet grounding. (I DO NOT mean to say that it's not serious, it is; just that if containment is holding there's no imminent danger to passengers.)

What I would be more concerned about are the reports of smoke in the cabin in flight. If that is confirmed, it's possible that there is something wrong with smoke containment and that is a big deal. I don't think it warrants a fleet grounding *before* having some idea of what actually happened, but I'm sure that the smoke / smell issue is receiving top attention at the moment. If it turns out to be a design or build flaw that needs to be corrected, then I could see the possibility of a fleet grounding until it's fixed (or inspected for).

This is all armchair opinion of course, I'm not a flight test or safety engineer.

[Edited 2013-01-16 10:22:21]


Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlineCO953 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26130 times:

Not trying to split hairs, but I'm not that concerned with trying to differentiate between smoke and smells. Smells are composed of molecules, as is smoke. Molecules from something were getting into the cabin - that much is agreed upon.

User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3087 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26076 times:

Ungrounded or FA error?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...3/history/20130116/1610Z/RJTT/EDDF



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 26041 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
As to why not ground the fleet? Based on the evidence presented to date, neither issue appears to have been one that would have resulted in a hull loss and the risk of injury or fatality.

So in other words unless we have fatalities or a hull loss, there is no reason to worry? Because "neither issue **appears** to have been one that would have resulted in a hull loss and the risk of injury or fatality"???


25 Post contains links jreuschl : http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/nh203 May be a 772.
26 Stitch : Smoke cannot get into the flight deck or the cabin from the Electrical Bays while the plane is in cruise - the air-flow system is designed to prevent
27 capri : flightradar24 shows 777 flightaware don't update fleet quickly someone beat me to it[Edited 2013-01-16 10:33:36]
28 SonomaFlyer : Before everyone becomes an armchair investigator/engineer and elects to toss the battery manufacturer under the bus, please keep this in mind: 1. Batt
29 CM : The battery is sole source. The supplier is Thales and the manufacturer is GS Yuasa. No idea, but I know the investigation will look for all common c
30 Post contains links solnabo : From RT on YT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ifPCarjAmI //Mike
31 Revelation : Thanks, PHX787 for the translation! Probably not required in the technical sense, but IMHO probably is required in the public relations sense. You can
32 sankaps : CM, I respect your posts but I think we are splitting hairs over semantics here. If the "evaluation of the likelihood and consequence of an event" res
33 Post contains links and images PHX787 : Today's flight is supposed to be operated by a 772. I'll keep you guys updated. Japan wakes up in a few hours so when that happens expect another upd
34 Post contains links jreuschl : http://www.flightradar24.com/LOT3 LO 787 is still on way to ORD for the inaugural flight.
35 Revelation : Right, but it's my recollection in the QF32 incident QF and SQ grounded their A380s before the authorities did, and I suspect they did so to avoid th
36 PITingres : Indeed, but there were (possibly incorrect) reports of smoke and/or smell in the cabin *in flight* anyway. If those reports were false then I see ver
37 SonomaFlyer : Which is why ANA and JL grounded the a/c. Part is to conduct an inspection and part was a p/r tactic. Both airlines are likely burning up the phone/i
38 CM : My point is this: having sat through many Safety Review Board meetings (they are held regularly for all models), the conversation is never about peop
39 tdscanuck : I've lost two big replies due to a.net/bad-internet connection so I'm not going to try to reply to quotes this time in the hopes I can actually get a
40 PHX787 : I'm having issues editing my last post. I found an article from the Wall Street Journal. (Which I am having issues posting the link of) Smell originat
41 Revelation : I heard two different extended reports before I left the house (NPR, BBC) and both were quite focused on the a/c type, the idea that it was all-new,
42 BIZJETTECH : If I had to take a wild guess here, the Lithium Ion batteries will soon be removed from this aircraft and replaced with standard NiCad. That is if the
43 anfromme : That may be the case, and the containment box may even have withstood the fire if nobody had come to extinguish it. But I can fully understand that J
44 Stitch : People can be confused as to what they experienced. Or they may have truly experienced it, but not when some people are making the assumption that th
45 SonomaFlyer : I got up to see the BBC World News report at noon GMT and it was long on sensationalism and short on facts. This is the downside to the information a
46 jreuschl : Does anyone know if Boeing has multiple suppliers for the batteries? I would hope they are working on that, if not.
47 SonomaFlyer : They are sourced from a single supplier who receives them from a single manufacturer. Its way to early to consider switching battery suppliers until
48 Stitch : They do not. This is a specialized battery in design and composition. I fully expect there is not another option available "off the shelf" that could
49 PHX787 : Now remember the pilot reported to ATC that the cockpit was "in smoke." I gotta check on Yomiuri but the article I had yesterday said that the fire d
50 Post contains links Revelation : One of the two reports I heard had AvWeek's Guy Norris on it, and he's pretty good. I thought it was the BBC? In any case, here's Guy's report, just
51 Post contains links ferpe : This is the latest article on the subject (1 hour old) which does not mention smoke, it seems to be a direct quote from ANA: http://seattletimes.com/h
52 Stitch : As I understand it, a smoke alarm was triggered in the forward equipment bay. It is possible that this is what happened and it is being incorrectly r
53 Post contains links and images PHX787 : Interesting enough Boeing is testing N787FT today. Who is this one destined for? It's clear these incidents aren't phasing Boeing much.
54 rcair1 : Some interesting items in this video that I noted: - No visible smoke inside, though that does not mean not smoke. It does mean it is not thick. - 2
55 AeroWesty : It's unclear how you can arrive at that conclusion from seeing a 787 in the air on a test flight.
56 blrsea : Agree totally. While recharging in air, could a higher than designed current flow cause the battery to overheat and catch fire?
57 Stitch : Yes. And this need not be applied across the entire battery. A single cell could start to overheat and catch fire, which could then spread to adjacen
58 Post contains links goosebayguy : The Daily Mail is reporting that Qatar have cancelled their LHR flight. Could it be that Qatar have grounded their 787's too? http://www.dailymail.co.
59 Post contains images Stitch : They also cancelled the flight to PER, but this may be to free up a plane to go to LHR. Akbar Al Baker is not one for subtly. As such, I would have e
60 SonomaFlyer : Overhead/overload yes. As to "fire" etc, I'd defer to someone who is an Electrical Engineer, Chemical Engineer or Tech who works in the field. Since
61 Norcal773 : How is that interesting? Looking at all your posts from the previous thread including the wrong translation, you're really trying to over-dramatize t
62 Post contains images lightsaber : Ummm... The law. The FAA mandates a 10^-6 chance of a crash per flight hour. Only if something is so bad as to increase the chance of a loss of life
63 PHX787 : From all respected views the QR fleet is grounded but some were still flying as of 10 min ago.
64 SonomaFlyer : UA 33 returned to the gate in NRT and was checked, then completed its flight to LAX. UA 32 is airborne to NRT at the moment. Nothing from UA about gro
65 Post contains links seahawks7757 : Since this was one of the last post. I'm reposting my last post, A report about all of the 787 issues in the last several weeks- http://www.airlinerep
66 Post contains links Hoya : Not sure if this was posted in Part 1, but before today's inaugural WAW-ORD 787 flight, the Polish press asked LOT about the Dreamliner's grounding in
67 UALWN : A known problem that yet wasn't fixed to add to the excitement of the Japanese?
68 Stitch : There was an AD issued for fuel leaks on the 787 for fuel-line connectors, but that was unrelated to the JL airframe that suffered a fuel leak in BOS
69 SonomaFlyer : I'm not buying that quote from LOT. The JL battery incident was on an a/c delivered in December 2012. The UA incident was on an a/c delivered in Nove
70 Post contains images AirlineCritic : Reposting from the previous thread, as I accidentally posted after closing the thread,. As a software engineer I disagree with that. Batteries you can
71 tarheelwings : Do you actually believe that Boeing kept this information from their launch customer? That they delivered airplanes with known problems to some of th
72 PHX787 : Flightaware is showing that TAK is back open this morning. Can anyone else confirm?
73 CO953 : I sure don't envy the Boeing electrical & computer folks. If the battery can't be definitively ruled out or in ruled out - and maybe it actually i
74 DocLightning : Any evacuation by slides is inherently dangerous. The passengers are of all ages, sizes, and physical condition. This isn't a plane full of Marines.
75 SonomaFlyer : He's shrewd enough to want the facts straight before he explodes.
76 Post contains links PHX787 : http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20130117a1.html (English news site) GS Yuasa KK is sending a team of inspectors to TAK to investigate what happened
77 CO953 : It's very interesting that the smoke problems have happened within a wide range of line numbers (something like LN9 and LN84), and didn't crop up with
78 Post contains images lastrow : sad incident but interesting thread - thanks to all writers so far. not trying to split hairs as well, but in chemistry you have the distinction that
79 Aesma : Oh boy am I glad that Airbus isn't using names for their planes !
80 jporterfi : The ANA flight status page shows ANA 534 still scheduled, but with a different a/c type (not sure which one, maybe a 767?) TAK-HND, 9:30-10:45.
81 Stitch : I have been consistent in stating that once the plane has landed that smoke might very well have been able to get into the cabin, so if this is indee
82 Post contains links flood : Not as bad as businessweek's headline "Boeing's 787: Will this plane kill you?" They've recently changed it, but the URL reflects old title. http://w
83 musapapaya : I like this, same procedure as we use here in the nuclear industry. Very well said.
84 peterinlisbon : This turned out not to be a serious accident and only 1 person was injured during the evacuation but it makes me wonder - this plane happened to be ne
85 Stitch : I have not seen any reports that the battery caught fire. Perhaps the NH crew killed the power to it (or a safety tripped, doing the same) and that s
86 DocLightning : Not historically... They were at 9000+meters when they began their descent, according to the Japanese news sources. Japanese news sources are not lik
87 par13del : Perhaps an explanation of the danger smoke in the cabin at 30K presents to the pax, as some may think it is semantics whether on the ground on in the
88 Stitch : Do the relevant FARs actually define how many Parts Per Million of soot may enter the cabin? And if they do, is that level below a concentration that
89 CM : Not to nit pick, but since someone posted a comment in Part 1 that this event had been classified as an "accident", it is worth being clear on the of
90 UALWN : Depending on what is the smoke made of it can range from not dangerous at all to lethal...
91 kalvado : Should we also expect a demo flight for 6 hours airborne with one engine inop and battery (or maybe both) actually on fire to support ETOPS 330 ratin
92 Post contains images CO953 : Some of the passengers on the involved jets might not think this out of line
93 abba : Giving airplanes funny names such as Dreamliner comes at a risk. It only makes it too easy for the press to make jokes about it. It is actually inter
94 rcair1 : No and no. Battery issues will not require re-certification of the engines. Containment testing would happen in a test facility on the ground - not i
95 PHX787 : TAK indeed opened today and this flight is a 767 today. Some rumors are circling that there will be a 77w sent to BOS later this week.
96 CO953 : All kidding aside, we can talk about containability all we want, but in my opinion if there is one single more occurrence of smoke anywhere on the air
97 AeroWesty : Well yes, of course. I don't really know what your reply has to do with what I posted, since I was addressing a statement from a poster known not to
98 Stitch : Quite true. And modern airworthiness directives work to minimize the sources of toxic smoke on an airplane.[Edited 2013-01-16 14:54:27]
99 SonomaFlyer : Smart move by Boeing. They should have a war room set up by now and have teams going over each incident (or going over them again) to narrow down the
100 BoeingVista : Rumour locally that Qatar has withdrawn the 787 from PER-DOA route, it was scheduled for inauguration on Feb 1st 2013 but aircraft type in SabreTN has
101 CM : I totally understand the PR considerations, which are very real... perception is reality. However, Boeing could only request operators stop flying th
102 kalvado : I am actually showing where this downplaying of events lead. It's not about immediate danger of smoke or re-cert of engines. It could be about risks
103 BoeingVista : And there you have it, the FAA grounds the 787 https://twitter.com/Reuters
104 Post contains links SonomaFlyer : No details yet but sounds like a discrete fix or specified inspection has been identified by Boeing and the FAA is ordering all 787s to be inspected/r
105 Humanitarian : For Immediate Release January 16, 2013 Contact: Laura Brown or Brie Sachse Phone: laura.j.brown@faa.gov or brie.sachse@faa.gov As a result of an in-fl
106 kanban : Thanks.. I was afraid of that.. The other question is whether this battery was designed especially for the 787 application and another with a few mor
107 rcair1 : So - if somebody lights a cigarette and starts a fire in the bathroom (a very common occurence) we should ground the fleet - right? Or if we have an
108 SonomaFlyer : Soooo: The emergency directive is an order to ground the aircraft without a fix specified which means the pressure is on Boeing to pull out the stops
109 Post contains links Scipio : CNN Breaking News FAA grounds B787: U.S. regulators ordered airlines to stop flying their Boeing Dreamliner jets until they can show they've fixed a f
110 Part147 : Has the 787 been grounded by the FAA - yes Is this a HUGE deal - yes No hysteria - just the plain fact that a brand new, state of the art Boeing airc
111 Post contains images rcair1 : Ahh! Some data! Now - if the FAA could only order temporary cessation of operation for certain peoples mouths. Unfortunately, I'm sure we will all ro
112 kanban : The ball is probably in Thales court.. with Boeing looking over their shoulder. Now who wrote the software .. Boeing or ?
113 SonomaFlyer : Boeing have or will put together a team consisting of their electrical engineers with the same from Thales and the battery manufacturer and all sub co
114 airmad : Lithium ion batteries have features in them/about them to stop thermal run away. Why? Because experience tells us that they need careful design, manuf
115 SonomaFlyer : I think other a/c types use a Ni-Cad battery type. IIRC lead-acid batteries are too heavy for the power that is required to be produced to be used in
116 packsonflight : It is funny that Airbus learned its lesson when they launched the 320. Then they touted technical superiority of the new model, so after Habsheim the
117 LAXMIA : FAA emergency AD to ground the fleet is a black eye for the 787 program, no doubt. But it may be a blessing in disguise. Boeing will be able to apply
118 Scipio : People want to live. I think that is a legitimate objective. When Boeing, airlines, and the FAA are unable to explain why essential batteries repeate
119 dc10rules : Just wondering will the LOT bird stay at ORD awaiting a repair or will it ferry back empty to WAW? Regards
120 LAXMIA : Scipio, sorry if my statement was not clear, but I was NOT implying that any crew involved in incidents to date has raised a false alarm. I was simpl
121 bellancacf : Are there thermistors tucked in next to the battery case so that the temperature of these batteries can be continuously monitored by something? (A ver
122 PHX787 : To the above who criticized my posting: It's not speculation it's simply what's coming to me through the news. Your comment was unnecessary. Is the UA
123 SonomaFlyer : I will be optimistic and say that this will be sorted quickly. UA picked NRT in part to the fact JL is based there and Boeing will have crews there as
124 Post contains images 817Dreamliiner : And I bet you're happy and jumping for joy now....
125 qf340500 : LAXMIA, i can't believe you are actually saying and moreover posting this comment. I love to be called overly sensitive when my own life is at stake,
126 Post contains links jreuschl : http://flightaware.com/live/flight/L...4/history/20130117/0355Z/KORD/EPWA The inaugural 787 flight for LOT from ORD has been cancelled.. in the home o
127 Post contains links flood : Seattle Times update: "Hot chemicals sprayed out of the battery on the 787 Dreamliner in this week’s emergency landing in Japan, leaving a gooey dar
128 Post contains images wjcandee : I will. I still haven't seen any rational justification for ANA doing an emergency evac on the tarmac. None. This really is looking more and more lik
129 sankaps : The justification is called "abundance of caution" when it comes to anything to do with malfunctiion of Li-Ion batteries and reprts of suspicious sme
130 SonomaFlyer : The ANA crew was versed with the incident at BOS. They received a number of messages on the flight deck. First a status message then two more warning
131 Connie58 : I have been a casual reader for quite a while and this will possibly be my first and only post. I have also been a mech and manager in aviation for a
132 RicknRoll : According to the FAA. "Both battery failures “resulted in release of flammable electrolytes, heat damage, and smoke,” says the FAA. " from the fli
133 solarflyer22 : I agree. There is also a danger of passengers panicking on the ground while you Taxi. Their was a Saudi flight where almost everyone died on the runw
134 Post contains images PHX787 : The article from the Seattle times that has circulated on the other 4 threads on this forum ( ) shows one thing: Boeing needs to get the supplier to a
135 RicknRoll : I would assume they can. I would also assume that this process will take a long time, when the new equipment has to be recertified.
136 SonomaFlyer : Boeing doesn't have time to find a new battery supplier and we don't have proof that the battery leaks/fires/issues isn't a symptom rather than the ca
137 sankaps : Unfortunately for Boeing, two of the current 787 operators will make life even harder for them... Qatar Airways, who's CEO is notorious for speaking h
138 PHX787 : Another question, as my Japan News app is currently overloaded: Will NH replace their service to the states on Friday or Saturday? Obviously My previo
139 prebennorholm : A qualified guess: The 787 will fly again in a not too distant future. With Ni-Cd batteries, with charge control software copied and pasted from the 7
140 wjcandee : I'm not going to say the diversion was an error, although I have my own thoughts about that. What I am saying, so please READ IT THIS TIME, is that t
141 par13del : Well, they also had years after the initial roll out to fix a number of issues, so its the same circle. The problem this time is in service errors wh
142 sankaps : The justification is what I stated: Don't tak chances, get them off the aircraft ASAP. British Airtours 737 in MAN wasted valuable time taxying off t
143 Wolbo : Are aircraft purchasing contracts so defined that the supplier has to reimburse it's customers for the financial damages caused by a grounding that is
144 wjcandee : Dude, there was no indication of fire. By your standard, they would do an on-runway evac every time there was even a hint of a funny smell. That's no
145 SonomaFlyer : 1. Multiple messages indicating first a battery fault then battery overheat; 2. The NH pilots are well aware of the fire on the JL aircraft parked at
146 ytz : Question: Why could they not have used airstairs on the taxiway to deplane?
147 SonomaFlyer : They'd have to wait for the airstairs with the fumes/smoke coming up into the cabin - that's not the procedure. The Captain decided to divert and mak
148 par13del : They could have, the questions would be if the emergency services planned for it, those mobile stairs would have had to be driven out to the designat
149 jreuschl : One of the articles stated that the battery that caused the ANA emergency landing was recently replaced. The JAL battery was on an aircraft less than
150 PHX787 : Yomiuri update: JL not flying it Friday at all, however there is no word on replacement service. The issue they are having is rebooking all of these p
151 Post contains links PHX787 : Now from Japan Today. English website. The Japanese are taking this very very seriously. Out of the 1 or 2 articles per news site I've seen in America
152 Norcal773 : Isn't this a classic definition of Armchair quarterbacking? I am sorry but I'd trust the ANA captain to do what he did with the evac than you who don
153 Post contains links gigneil : There is a potential alternative supplier. They can and will build one for the 787 but it will take 12 to 15 months to certify. http://www.eaglepiche
154 7BOEING7 : I don't think that will be an exceptable answer.
155 gigneil : The only answer to a problem is often likely to ba acceptable. NS
156 PHX787 : Here's the issue I see: if the FAA or MoT says that lithium ion batteries are unsafe to have power an aircraft, then they can say there needs to be a
157 gigneil : That's not likely to happen. There are other Lithium Ion batteries in aircraft. Many, including this one. are all certified to a much stricter standa
158 blrsea : Aren't Li-Ion batteries used in lots of other aircraft too? It could either be a manufacturing issue or the circuit/software controlling the current f
159 PlanesNTrains : Well, there was smoke reported in the cabin after landing from what I read above. On the flipside, did the A330 that landed with smoke in the cockpit
160 mham001 : There are several types of lithium batteries and they cannot all be classed together. Lithium phosphate (LiFePo4) is relatively safe. It is primarily
161 SonomaFlyer : Switching to a different supplier isn't a viable solution to the immediate issue and the FAA directive. Boeing will need to solve this issue with Thal
162 Post contains links and images PHX787 : The last 787 in the sky approaching NRT.
163 Post contains images PITingres : I'll take you up on that. My (entirely unqualified!) guess is that Boeing (and Airbus, on the A350) are all-in on Li batteries and we'll see refineme
164 slinky09 : The problem in Boston was on an early model 787, the ANA flight on a much more recently delivered model - potentially all 787s could have this proble
165 Post contains links flood : LAN still en route to SCL: www.flightaware.com/live/flight/LAN603 Looks like QR still flying... unless it's an FA glitch, departed for MUC half an ho
166 rcair1 : Do you have a reference - I'd be interested in seeing that. I did see a reference that the expected in service time for the batteries was 12-18 month
167 PHX787 : Oh I didn't see those. Still kinda sad to see.
168 FlyingAY : +1 on this. It is not like the captain had to make this decision in a split second. There was probably plenty of time to discuss this the co-pilot an
169 spacecadet : Sheesh, what part of the quote below do you not understand? I'll help explain it to you if you point it out. The battery failures resulted in release
170 AirlineCritic : Guys, I understand that the reason the batteries failed has to be found. And fixed. And unless we are surprised I'd expect that to be relatively easy.
171 uta999 : Question: Is the problem with the 787 batteries related to them constantly being charged to 100% when in operation? That should be easy to fix at leas
172 CALTECH : Cannot give sources. Earlier in 2010, concerns about batteries that were only giving 6 months of life, now with a change, they are supposedly able to
173 SonomaFlyer : CALTECH is an insider at sCO now UA. I haven't seen him go overboard and overstate/misstate positions regarding a/c in this forum. In other words, you
174 Stitch : JA804A (the NH plane) was delivered one year to the day prior to the diversion to TAK. However, I did see someone post that the battery had recently
175 Post contains images oldeuropean : Thank you, spacecadet.
176 7BOEING7 : You have that backwards: BOS was JAL Line #84 (the latest line number delivered) ANA issue in Japan was on an airplane delivered a year ago or so Lin
177 mham001 : If Yuasa is really getting $50k/pack today, somebody is getting bilked. I understand aircraft quality but last month I bought a lithium phosphate pac
178 CALTECH : Has that battery passed aircraft standards testing,FAA approval ? Is it rated for flight ? The testing done for aircraft use approval are some of the
179 7BOEING7 : The APU battery starts the APU if external/engine power is not available--also powers the navigation lights during towing ops--that's it for the most
180 PHX787 : IIRC he was also the 3rd delivered to NH because of 803 not being taken Immediately...wasn't 804 also heavily tested?
181 mham001 : Understood and why I mentioned aircraft-grade but 25x commercial-grade?. it is apparently an off-the-shelf aviation battery (or of similar constructi
182 Stitch : The Ship's (main) battery and the APU battery are identical. This is because you can send a 787 out with the APU battery MEL'd, but not the Ship's Ba
183 Post contains links PHX787 : Because of the flames on the other thread ill post updates from japan here. So far it's a quiet news day in Japanese aviation because of the hostages
184 mham001 : It would be interesting to know the draw on the main pack.
185 quiet1 : Witness testimony can be unreliable. On UA826, the 747-100 flying NRT-HNL which encountered severe turbulence and quickly lost altitude causing chaos
186 SonomaFlyer : There was a cell video of the evac from the NH 787. I did not appear there was smoke in the cabin. No way to tell if there were unusual odors of cours
187 Post contains links PHX787 : http://www.japantoday.com/category/b...-flights-after-dreamliner-grounded JL canceling the SAN route until the 25th. Editing: oooops! Thanks sonomafly
188 SonomaFlyer : JL runs that route. Its a drag but there is isn't another a/c in the JL fleet which can do the route profitably given the runway limitations/field ch
189 jreuschl : Why would they announce that the SAN route would operate again on the 25th if they have no other aircraft that can fly the route? Do they know somethi
190 PHX787 : It could be that this could be re-issued if nothing is discovered/fixed by this time. Or, JL could be shuffling around to find a replacement craft in
191 F9animal : Boeing will now get some time to blame its workers for further delays. Boeing rejected SPEEA's counter offer today. SPEEA will begin a vote to strike.
192 SonomaFlyer : I don't think this is a wise move by Boeing given the it is grappling with the 787 issues. There comes a time when folks in the executive suite need
193 Post contains links rcair1 : I'm repeating a previous post I made about because I heard no comments and I think maybe it got missed. Often by the time I compose and post a reply
194 BestWestern : Look at the AF evac in Toronto, and the US airways evac on the Hudson - people seen getting out of the aircraft with their laptop bags. Shows people
195 CALTECH : It sometimes could be that the cost of development, testing, certification, liability and continued tech support that it would not be economical for
196 JoeCanuck : There are less volatile and unstable Lithium battery types...Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, (A123 type), are much more stable and safe. They can ta
197 SonomaFlyer : This is an option of last resort. They must go through the entire certification process again in order to switch battery types/brands. That is a 12-1
198 Post contains images lightsaber : Now I know why you are on my RU list, it is finding out details such as this that brings me back to a.net! That is a fascinating little engineering d
199 RickNRoll : I don't know how much was removed, but in that photo of the burnt out battery in place, there was plenty of room around it. Wouldn't a completely new
200 SonomaFlyer : Yes which is why this option isn't realistic. This isn't a plane where you can pull an aviation battery off the shelf or from another a/c program and
201 rwessel : The space issue (might) be even worse that people are assuming. Li-Ion's may have three times the energy density of NiCd's on a mass basis, but it's
202 Post contains links vfw614 : On a lighter note: As a reaction to the FAA grounding, the 787 has also been withdrawn from use at the MiWuLa, a huge German miniture world based in H
203 JoeCanuck : It would only be a disaster if they had to go with a currently uncertified battery. If they could shoehorn a battery already certified for another ai
204 Post contains links Aviaponcho : Sorry if it has already been discussed, but from what I have seem on twitter (S Trimble as I recall) What I read : Dreamliner Battery is one supplier
205 francoflier : The 787 will use Lithium batteries or won't be. Like anything that pioneers a technology (at least for that use on that scale), if there's an issue wi
206 Post contains images AirlineCritic : Not sure if this has been posted yet, but newspapers have shown a picture of the ANA battery as well. Looks very familiar to the pictures from the ear
207 Aviaponcho : Thanks Nice shot Looks like some plastic cover on the right new battery
208 Revelation : At this point it's not about looking good. It is said Boeing just rejected the engineer's offer yesterday right as the current crisis was raging and
209 Stitch : Would it really be that simple? I mean if the 777 battery provided, say, 50% of the capacity, can Boeing just stack two of them together and wire the
210 SonomaFlyer : They would have to reconfigure the software and hardware to match the new battery. This is all custom designed stuff - not an off-the-shelf applicati
211 Post contains links PHX787 : Morning from Arizona Today's articles from japan regarding the incident: http://www.japantoday.com/category/n...-overheating-safety-inspector-says Yep
212 CO953 : I'll bite.... I always felt that 787 EIS issues would be electrical, just due to the complex design... but certainly not something this fundamental!
213 7BOEING7 : Let's not make this harder than it already is--the battery doesn't power the IFE, galleys, etc. The APU battery starts the APU (if no other electrica
214 Post contains links Aviaponcho : Hello Ostrower in WSJ states that :
215 Aviaponcho : So I go CM should be answering this message. It's not from me It's taken from Seattle Times, via Leeham (Flying frog) CM it's up to you ! Thanks
216 7BOEING7 : I mixed up some items, refueling and towing ops are on the Main battery, but it only serves as a primary source for key systems after normal power is
217 Stitch : Primary electrical power for the 787 is provided by two sets of two generators each (so a total of four), each set powered by one of the engines. If
218 PHX787 : Looks like the 787 may have one other issue to get in order for japan to lift the grounding order: According to NHK World, faulty fuel valves were det
219 Stitch : Depends on the amount of fuel that can leak past them. Both events were under 100 liters, as I recall, which is less than 1000th of the fuel capacity
220 Norcal773 : LOL.. Some of your posts crack me up...it's like adding fuel to the fire. The AD is for the battery issue, period! The FAA said nothing about faulty
221 JoeCanuck : It could be. Batteries are certified for capacity, drawdown, charge/discharge characteristics, and a host of other parameters. Rigging batteries in s
222 AdmiralRitt : A battery is simple element, with known failure modes and thermal limits. IMO the battery must not be the primary cauising agent. It would show up in
223 CM : Answered in order: ANSWER 1) The 787 fuel tanks have many layers of independent/redundant protections against ignition sources, which include lightni
224 Post contains links Stitch : Looks like the Ship's Battery on the NH flight was subjected to voltage higher than design limit: Kosugi-san went on to mention that NH's Ship's Batte
225 PHX787 : I read a different report that said the same thing earlier from Yomiuri so I'm guessing CBS is quoting from news released in japan. The Japan today a
226 nomadd22 : I've been troubleshooting and repairing burned battery packs for a while now, and that statement sound premature to say the least. Although getting h
227 Aviaponcho : Thank you CM Designing the 787 seems to have been truly challenging, pushing the limits. Hope this breaktrough can be leveraged in other Boeing Desig
228 BEG2IAH : CM, this was a great post. Thanks for all your patience, I wish I had 1% of it.
229 packsonflight : I doubt they can simply change to a different battery type because the the charge/discharge control is a part of the already certified electrical sys
230 frmrcapcadet : As always I much appreciate the answer our reliable experts give when the rest of us ask questions.
231 Speedbird128 : With all due respect - I sure as hell don't want to be on a plane where equipment is catching fire. Nothing is ever 100% contained. Given the rather
232 CM : To my knowledge, Tom (tdscanuck) and I are the only "Boeing people" who have posted in this thread. That being the case, you'll have to be specific a
233 AirlineCritic : I'm not necessarily doubting the investigator's statements or the reporting thereof. But I have to ask, how would they know? A burned battery is not
234 7BOEING7 : Actually anytime 3 or more generators go offline the APU starts automatically. As long as power isn't lost to the Captain's instruments nothing else
235 JoeCanuck : Some batteries are simple elements...Li-ion's really aren't. Under light draw, and low amperage charging, they really shine, lasting for a very long
236 DocLightning : So then that does suggest that the issue is in the interface between the electrical system and the batteries, after all, no? How long do you think th
237 rwessel : I was wondering if you could expand on that for those of us who are curious about the systems. Some specific questions: As I understand it, the hydra
238 CM : The Left and Right hydraulic systems each have an engine driven pump (EDP) and and an electric motor pump (EMP). The Center hydraulic system has two
239 par13del : Good question, as a non-mechanical person thinking of it I'm thinking months, identify an alternative that can meet the existing power requirements -
240 dynamicsguy : No. Not sure how you figure that eliminates the batteries or cells themselves, or the battery control and monitoring in each pack. I have no idea how
241 Post contains images YVRLTN : This is interesting to me, so does eliminating an extra 468+ lbs (x2 batteries) of weight really equate to saving more than $62,000 (777 battery) or
242 CM : I'm off working on the next new Boeing airplane now, so no more 787 for me. The problem is my heart is still with the 787 and it's hard to think abou
243 JoeCanuck : Well, I won't even guess, especially considering my theory is in itself a guess. It is based on the fact that the batteries have undoubtedly gone thr
244 RickNRoll : Exactly what I was thinking. When you help create something, you put a little piece of yourself into it. The statement from an Airbus manager, "I hon
245 rwessel : Where is standby power from? Is it different from what we'd usually consider the emergency bus? And what loads are on it other than the actuators? An
246 CM : "Standby Power" as a formal term means all 6 generators are lost. On standby power, all electrical power on the airplane is provided by the RAT and v
247 Post contains links PHX787 : Not sure if this was mentioned (these threads update so fast and I'm quite busy myself so I can't really read everything) but some of the investigator
248 Post contains links NZ1 : Due to the length of this thread it is time to lock it. Rather than start a new part, any new information or further discussion can probably be carrie
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