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FAA Grounds 787  
User currently offlinebrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3035 posts, RR: 4
Posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 46417 times:

Per Reuters on Twitter, no details yet.

Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
263 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlinebrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3035 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 46485 times:

Link to Reuters' Twitter profile: https://twitter.com/Reuters

Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 429 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 46414 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I hope like crazy they are able to fix these problems and fast!


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 15724 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 46302 times:

As my Scandinavian friend says, "Now the cow has gotten onto the ice!"  

Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinebrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3035 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 46163 times:

They still don't have an article posted, but this tweet followed the original one:

Reuters Top News ‏@Reuters

FAA: Will work with Boeing, airlines to develop corrective action plan to resume 787 operations as "quickly and safely as possible"

Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlinersmith6621a From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 194 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 46155 times:

Quoting brons2 (Reply 1):

I dont find it.

Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
User currently offlinekalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 600 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 46078 times:

I really wonder if they did it on PR grounds, or FAA got some data from past events and have specific concerns...

User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 429 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 46030 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting rsmith6621a (Reply 5):
Quoting brons2 (Reply 1):

I dont find it.

Just do a twitter search for @Reuters and you will...simple.


User currently offlinebrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3035 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 46023 times:

Press F5 to refresh? it was posted 14 minutes ago. Still no link to an article.

Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2880 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 46047 times:

There a a number of news articles running this story now. US registered 787s grounded until operators can prove the Li ion batteries to be safe....

When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1970 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 46023 times:

So the FAA sides with me and Daysleeper against A.net. and for exactly the reasons I came to; a second Li-Ion battery incident. The FAA decides to err on the side of caution rather than emotion and denial from vested interests, this is their job.

I don't claim to be a genius, this isn't rocket science but 99% of the message board was on the wrong side of this. At last I have become one of the 1%

I'm happy to let all of the insults of the past week slide by.

User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4324 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 45952 times:

The Seattle Times seems to confirm Reuters report of the 787 grounding on their homepage. Will follow with interest.


"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineseahawks7757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 45947 times:

Not good at all, still waiting for an official statement from the FAA.

User currently offlinejodoloy From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 45852 times:

Boeing's stock price is probably going to plummet tomorrow. Any predictions as to how much?

User currently offlinencfc99 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 45863 times:

UA033 has returned to NRT according to airlineroute on twitter. Reasons unknown at this time.

User currently offlinejodoloy From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 45858 times:

Boeing's stock price is probably going to plummet tomorrow. Any predictions as to how much?

User currently offlinebrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3035 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 45869 times:

I couldn't access a.net for a few minutes there.

It figures...787 Grounded, Airliners.net Crashes!  

Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineseahawks7757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 45796 times:

Article updated with full FAA Release at the bottom-

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 15724 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 45712 times:

Reuters stuff from Twitter:


FAA: International aviation authorities alerted about any groundings of Boeing 787s so they can take parallel action
31m Reuters Top News Reuters Top News ‏@Reuters

FAA: Battery failures on Boeing 787s could damage critical systems and structures, spark fire, if not corrected
35m Reuters Top News Reuters Top News ‏@Reuters

FAA: Will also examine Boeing 787 batteries as part of comprehensive review announced last week
35m Reuters Top News Reuters Top News ‏@Reuters

FAA: Decision to ground Boeing 787s prompted by second incident involving lithium ion battery failure

Times relative to the time of this post.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 11):
So the FAA sides with me and Daysleeper against A.net. and for exactly the reasons I came to; a second Li-Ion battery incident.

At least it wasn't you claiming that breaks in your tennis racket, golf club or bicycle had anything to do with anything.

I was coming to the conclusion that a grounding was going to be necessary from a PR point of view after this 2nd Li-Ion incident. Most people won't be comfortable with the 2nd event being labelled as 'random' or 'an unfortunate statistical grouping'.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 11):
The FAA decides to err on the side of caution rather than emotion and denial from vested interests, this is their job.

I thought the theory was that the bad old FAA was emasculated by their "dual role", was faking the tests, was incompetent, etc.

Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinecosyr From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 747 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 45630 times:

Does this effect foreign 787 flying to/from the US?

User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 8789 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 45636 times:

Holy ravioli !

PS : this news item has killed the forum !

New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 45670 times:

Quoting cosyr (Reply 23):
Does this effect foreign 787 flying to/from the US?

Yes. When the AD is issued, it will apply to US flagged aircraft, as well as those flying into US airspace.

User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1406 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 45604 times:

FAA's official statement:

January 16, 2013

As a result of an in-flight, Boeing 787 battery incident earlier today in Japan, the FAA will issue an emergency airworthiness directive (AD) to address a potential battery fire risk in the 787 and require operators to temporarily cease operations. Before further flight, operators of U.S.-registered, Boeing 787 aircraft must demonstrate to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) that the batteries are safe.

The FAA will work with the manufacturer and carriers to develop a corrective action plan to allow the U.S. 787 fleet to resume operations as quickly and safely as possible.

The in-flight Japanese battery incident followed an earlier 787 battery incident that occurred on the ground in Boston on January 7, 2013. The AD is prompted by this second incident involving a lithium ion battery. The battery failures resulted in release of flammable electrolytes, heat damage, and smoke on two Model 787 airplanes. The root cause of these failures is currently under investigation. These conditions, if not corrected, could result in damage to critical systems and structures, and the potential for fire in the electrical compartment.

Last Friday, the FAA announced a comprehensive review of the 787’s critical systems with the possibility of further action pending new data and information. In addition to the continuing review of the aircraft’s design, manufacture and assembly, the agency also will validate that 787 batteries and the battery system on the aircraft are in compliance with the special condition the agency issued as part of the aircraft’s certification.

United Airlines is currently the only U.S. airline operating the 787, with six airplanes in service. When the FAA issues an airworthiness directive, it also alerts the international aviation community to the action so other civil aviation authorities can take parallel action to cover the fleets operating in their own countries.


User currently offlinedcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 45467 times:

Link to story

FAA Grounds United's Dreamliners

The Federal Aviation Administration ordered an immediate halt to Boeing Dreamliner flights by U.S. airlines. United Airlines is the only U.S. airline currently operating the Dreamliner....

[Edited 2013-01-16 16:54:14]

User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1477 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 45825 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 21):
At least it wasn't you claiming that breaks in your tennis racket, golf club or bicycle had anything to do with anything.

Yeah, that was pure comic really.

So what happens to UA 32 which is 6 hours out of NRT over the Pacific? Divert to Alaska or continue on?

Quoting CM (Reply 25):
When the AD is issued, it will apply to US flagged aircraft, as well as those flying into US airspace.

So LOT is screwed on their inaugural flight to LAX? Had it departed when this was announced?

If you're going through hell, keep going
25 OA260 : Shame to see this but for the best before the unthinkable happened !
26 RussianJet : Cue loads of comments about 'how is this even news' etc etc, and 'this happens all the time with new types'...... Oh wait - it finally IS news about t
27 Post contains links clickhappy : Not all 787s are grounded, this one flew today (on an engineering flight): http://www.flickr.com/photos/royalscottking/8387239371/in/photostream
28 Asiaflyer : Unlikely that FAA will let the 787 fly again until something has changed. Will the battery type change, or will the battery system be redesigned? Obv
29 CO953 : Yeah, I got talked down to kind of snarkily at the end of the last thread for suggesting that the PR angle was going to give Boeing a tough choice. I
30 PHX787 : Well the proverbial s--- has hit the fan. Boeings stock took a nose dive today.[Edited 2013-01-16 17:01:46]
31 SCQ83 : So who and which routes are still flying the 787? - JAL: grounded - ANA: grounded - UA: grounded - QR: grounded That leaves Ethiopian, LAN, LOT and Ai
32 CM : Not necessarily. To my knowledge the AD has not yet been issued, so the grounding is not yet in legal effect. It is common when this type of action i
33 holzmann : As an American, I am simply disappointed on so many levels. Boeing, like it or not as the country's biggest exporter by value, is one of the last good
34 Stitch : As of the time of this posting, QR has not grounded the fleet to my knowledge. The LHR-DOH flight went tech on a hydraulic issue and is overnighting
35 AeroWesty : It's down a few bucks. On a stock which trades in the 70s, that's not a nose dive. That's a market correction based on news. Boeing isn't falling apa
36 sankaps : The FAA announcement recommends that other countries follow suit and ground the aircraft as well.
37 seahawks7757 : They are not grounded as of yet.
38 PlanesNTrains : I just hope we can stick to facts in these threads and eliminate the "I told you so" crap that some seem to live off of. I also hope that they have a
39 PHX787 : Keep an eye on it the next few days. I wanna know has Boeing even issued any press releases? I may have missed something. I've had a really busy day.
40 huxrules : What was the last type to be grounded by the FAA? The only one I can remember was the DC-10. Not good company to be in.
41 SCL767 : The Chilean DGAC follows the directives issued by the FAA. LAN's 787s are deployed on two routes: SCL-LAX and SCL-EZE. LA603 (CC-BBC) is currently op
42 holzmann : Tinfoil Hat again: Thales makes the APU. Thales is French. Wouldn't Thales gain if Airbus gains? Meaning, Boeing loses?
43 AeroWesty : I'm sure everyone will. That still doesn't mean that today's loss was a "nose dive." Please keep the dramatics to a minimum.
44 Post contains links seahawks7757 : Yes- http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2563
45 Stitch : Thales makes parts for Airbus planes, as well.
46 rfields5421 : Other countries / airlines will almost always follow the FAA lead on a US manufactured aircraft. I would expect EU authorities to also order the grou
47 Viscount724 : The DC-10 grounding in 1979 (which I believe lasted 37 days) was determined to have been unnecessary. The cause of the AA crash at ORD that prompted
48 Bureaucromancer : And is seriously preferable to the chaos that came out of the DC-10 grounding being immediate. IRC there was at least one really close near miss as a
49 todareisinger : Sadly, it is very well said. It is truly frightening to see how a GREAT company can be so miserably managed. I hope the 787 project will not become a
50 JAAlbert : It'll be short term. Hold onto yer stock certificates folks, it'll be back up at some point. Entirely sensible position to take. Lots of folks are sa
51 jreuschl : Sounds like the batteries are terrible. I'm shocked this didn't come up during testing though. You'd think during flight test, the batteries would be
52 atnight : I'm sad to hear the news, but I was very skeptical about the 787 with so many issues in such a short time... hopefully things can be learned quickly a
53 ikramerica : How do you prove that? Li-ion batteries are not "safe", as they spontaneously combust and this is a known failure state. I believe what needs to happ
54 Post contains links jreuschl : Seattle Times update: "Hot chemicals sprayed out of the battery on the 787 Dreamliner in this week’s emergency landing in Japan, leaving a gooey dar
55 Sulley : FlyerTalk forums already criticizing UA for not grounding the plane sooner... bollocks.
56 Norcal773 : Woow, talk of an over-reaction? The FAA didn't say this airliner will never fly again. I for one don;t know what the issue is and I don;t think anyon
57 26point2 : Quoting huxrules (Reply 44): What was the last type to be grounded by the FAA? The only one I can remember was the DC-10. Not good company to be in. T
58 zeke : In the previous thread you were trying to play this down, and said the aircraft was a way off grounding. I did not agree. "Or an accident, or an emer
59 CO953 : I am curious if there is any sort of active suppression system near the batteries, aside from the containment box and the outflow valve? Wonder if it
60 aeroblogger : DGCA (India) is expected to issue a grounding order this afternoon.
61 Wisdom : So that was the reason for the cancellation... these aircraft are literally falling apart. AOG after AOG. I'm glad that the FAA is taking this seriou
62 Stitch : The only way to suppress a Li-Ion battery fire is to physically bury it in a substance like dirt.
63 B747forever : This is just bad. Feel for everyone who has worked so hard with the 787. Must be a tough time for them.
64 ikramerica : That's all interesting, but, so? Was the "gooey, dark residue" any threat to anything? Or did it just smell bad? One benefit of Li-Ion batteries is t
65 CO953 : WELL then, as I wrote on the other thread, if it were Cajun Airlines, Cajuns being haphazard yet ingenious, then I know what Troy Landry and his Swam
66 RicknRoll : This appears to be the issue. From Flightglobal..... "" Both battery failures “resulted in release of flammable electrolytes, heat damage, and smok
67 ual747-600 : Heads should roll at Boeing, especially the PR/Marketing folks. Where is a timely/proactive PR/media campaign explaining the companies side of things?
68 yellowtail : Perfect time to buy....have you seen the backlogs of 777s and 737s
69 AeroWesty : With the detail described in that article, I can see why the FAA grounded the 787.
70 United1 : Continuing onto NRT at this time...it will probably ferry back to the US.
71 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Careful about the self-stroking - it can lead to penis elbow. BTW, the FAA focus is just the batteries, not the 57 other things you allege is wrong w
72 Aesma : Thales also made the pitot probes on the A330 that crashed in the Atlantic. They must have an airliner family in the books, ready to replace both Air
73 Kaiarahi : And this from someone who on 5 other threads has alleged that the FAA were in Boeing's pocket and essentially corrupt. You need to get your allegatio
74 ual747-600 : Boeing release on grounding: CHICAGO, Jan. 16, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing Chairman, President and CEO Jim McNerney issued the following statement tod
75 atnight : At least Boeing can say they are the biggest aircraft maker and that sold and delivered more airplanes in 2012!!! That will make this story disappear
76 sankaps : The prize for the most pointless and ludicrous post now goes to the one above. Unless you believe cutting off your nose to spite your face is a good
77 ltbewr : I would presume that what was found in the preliminary examination of the 2 - 787's with recent battery problems very much influenced the aggressive a
78 RicknRoll : Given the last event, it's not erring on the side of caution at all. As for the issue of it being the suppliers fault, Boeing has said they know that
79 CO953 : Does anyone know how often these Li-ion batteries are supposed to be replaced during normal service? I'm still pondering why one of the planes was new
80 rcair1 : Every battery has failure modes - none are "safe" in the way you are discussion. No they don't. They do have failure modes which cause release of the
81 CO953 : Thanks for the info. I like to think reeeally primitive sometimes, So: What about wrapping the battery in a cooling jacket of some sort and then cove
82 Kaiarahi : They don't self-ignite - see Do you have source for Boeing designing the containment method (rather than Thales or Yuasa)?
83 Revelation : Thanks, but we already have the full FAA statement in #22. Indeed the statement says: And I do think that this does mean that "the battery failures b
84 RicknRoll : You are nit picking. They go into a failure mode which could bring down a plane if not contained. The containment method does not work adequately. Th
85 CM : Zeke, please don't do this. You can and should be able to offer this thread so much more than this. Despite the fact I work for Boeing and have been
86 flightsimer : Wasn't the 777A groundings from united and American enforced by the faa and not just the airlines back in the 2009/2010 time frame? If I remember cor
87 sankaps : Mandatory, time-bound ADs are not the same as groundings. The last major commercial American aircraft grounded by the FAA was the DC10 back in 1979.
88 DocLightning : Except: That doesn't sound like containment to me. Here's what worries me: all these issues have popped up in rapid secession. What else is wrong wit
89 United1 : No it wasn't enforced by the FAA and UA didn't exactly ground their 777 fleet they simply required an inspection to be carried out before the aircraf
90 warreng24 : IIRC, the Li batteries are manufactured by Yuasa.
91 ikramerica : Yes, they do. Sorry, but what part of what I said claims that it doesn't require a defect to combust? It's still spontaneous. If the battery has the
92 DTW2HYD : It appear Qatar and AI still flying 787.
93 sankaps : There is a school of thought (visible in some of the comments from engineers above) that believes ultimately this is a management failure; that when B
94 DeltaMD90 : I am no engineer, and don't take this the wrong way, but at least it is just the batteries! It might take time and money to replace, but the whole air
95 kurtjeter : Yes. True. But wasn't some design modification made to the cargo door following this--or perhaps following the Paris DC-10 crash?
96 Kaiarahi : Spontaneous combustion occurs by self heating (increase in temperature due to exothermic internal reactions). Typical examples are haystacks, compost
97 flood : Nobody at QR has had the courage to tell Al Baker yet.
98 SCQ83 : I was actually quite surprised today when I was taking a look at the biography of the CEO of Boeing (I had no idea who he was). Despite his credentia
99 StuckInCA : Your statement pretty much makes that impossible right? Letting it slide by would require sitting quietly not gloating. Hopefully the grounding is re
100 RicknRoll : That is not what they are saying. They explicitly say that liquids have escaped from the containment vessel that have the potential to damage wiring
101 rotating14 : This is almost negligible. Electronic related fire left behind by a tech? You'd think that after delaying a program for over 36 months kinks would be
102 kanban : While some of that may be true, Boeing lost more when they extended a Golden Handshake and 25% or so more managers took it without preparing successo
103 planesofthepast : It really is an important matter, aviation or otherwise. Sadly, we seem to be able to manufacture so few things in America today. Making airplanes is
104 idlewildchild : The big question will be is there a simple fix or is this a fundamental issue calling for return to drawing board. ...and the Boeing lovers draw in a
105 Post contains links stasisLAX : The 787s battery pack was designed and produced in Japan by GS Yuasa, according to an article in todays NY Times. "Japan’s GS Yuasa, has declined t
106 flyingbird : I have just arrived Chicago on first LOT Dreamliner flight (LO3). It was a great flight. Polish media claims that the Dreamliner now is grounded in OR
107 jfklganyc : This isn't 1950 and a plane that rolls off a line in Seattle or NC is not the pride and joy of the country. Frankly, outside of a.net and the cable n
108 frmrcapcadet : IIRC some of Boeing glory years were while the CEO was not an engineer. But it was an engineering oriented company.
109 gigneil : I don't want to let this go by unanswered, because its utterly false. The grounding was NOT due to the engine falling off. The grounding was due to t
110 dtw9 : Totally wrong. It was proven in the simulator that had the Captain added ten knots to his speed the aircraft would not have stalled. However, the Cap
111 gigneil : He also was unaware that his slats did not agree with his instrumentation, as well as the stall warning failing. The control systems were overly vulne
112 n471wn : Not totally true as new requirements where made on how the engine is mounted to the pylon and the pylon to the wing ---this accident happened because
113 dtw9 : Not so serious to the FAA, because it became an AD, and the DC-10 was allowed to fly again before compliance..
114 Revelation : The FAA pretty clearly defines the issue, it's the failure of the batteries, the release of flammable electrolytes, and the heat and smoke damage. Se
115 dtw9 : Totally true. AA was using a unapproved method of removing the engine and pylon assembly. After the crash they had to adhere to the recommended proce
116 Post contains links rojam : My reply to the now-closed thread "LAN Grounds 787 Fleet" Wow user "g500's desired descent into an AvB discussion peeved off the moderators - well don
117 Post contains links Thomas_Jaeger : I have done some research work this morning trying to figure out the current locations of all B787-8s, I believe this should be the current status: ht
118 Post contains images PHX787 : all of this. Japan is as ashamed in this failure as the Americans are about this. It's not about same though- is about fixing the situation at hand a
119 Norcal773 : I was just thinking the same. That must have sucked for all those folks who booked that flight to be the first on it. Yikes!
120 Stitch : Indian Civil Aviation authorities have ordered AI to suspend 787 operations. LOT and LAN have also suspended 787 operations, though not sure if that
121 Post contains links queb : You're right but Yuasa was not the choice of Boeing. Yusa was selected by Thales Group, who is responsible of the 787 Electrical Power Conversion Sys
122 rojam : I doubt if I'm the first to ask but remember when Boeing asked the public to name the aircraft, either to be popular (in the true sense of the word) o
123 Thomas_Jaeger : Has LOT made any official statements yet? SP-LRA is obviously still at ORD and the return flight has been cancelled. SP-LRB is in WAW and from what I
124 CX Flyboy : I may have missed this as I do not have time to read this entire thread but is the problem only related to the APU battery? If so, why can't they remo
125 Post contains images sturmovik : Add AI to the list, reports coming in that the DGCA have asked AI to ground it's 787s. This quote made my day.. By the way, I can't help but wonder w
126 gigneil : I will assure you that Boeing vetted the selection of every single molecule in that aircraft. NS
127 sccutler : My source at UAL tells me the 787s were "grounded," inspected and released for continued operations. Any of you mavens able to confirm, deny or confus
128 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Without going through it point by point, let me just say that I disagree with your point of view. Again. I'm not totally clear on that finding. Did t
129 brons2 : How much more would a lead-acid battery with equivalent capacity weigh?
130 Thomas_Jaeger : VT-ANH still operated DEL-MAA this morning, VT-ANJ DEL-BLR. The other four are in DEL or just arriving there from FRA and CDG. Is there an official s
131 Norcal773 : That was yesterday after the ANA incident. Word had it that UA inspected all their 787 birds.
132 Wolbo : It might be more an issue of how much larger it would need to be and if it would fit in the current bay.
133 gigneil : As much as 100 or 200 pounds... if the dimensions can be made to work, its a question of the mounting structure. Bolstering the mounting hardware woul
134 Post contains links Skydrol : There's now lots of folks on a.net discussing the topic of Li-Ion battery hazards, but for those who have never experienced a battery in thermal runaw
135 sccutler : Upon further review, I see UAL32 (LAX - Narita) and LAN 603 (LAX-SCL) both in the air now, both having departed this afternoon.
136 YVRLTN : This is the thing, I am not convinced the issue is the battery itself, but electrical systems or components around it. The question then is, are thos
137 PITingres : Using Wiki figures, very roughly 5x more. If the Li batteries were to be replaced with something else, I imagine that NiMH would be the preferred tec
138 Post contains links mke717spotter : When you were onboard were you ever made aware of the FAA's decision to ground all 787s? Apparently most passengers were rebooked on other airlines:
139 Aesma : No this time it was the main battery of the plane, situated in another bay.
140 Post contains links RicknRoll : From Aviation Week "The incident followed an earlier 787 battery incident that occurred on a Japan Airlines 787 on the ground in Boston on Jan. 7, al
141 CM : If it were just the APU battery, this certainly would be an option. Under MEL with the APU inop, the 787 remains ETOPS 180 capable, with no other ope
142 art : Sensible move to ground the 787 until it can be proved the electrical system is safe IMO. The timing is fortunate - the overheating problem has not oc
143 SonomaFlyer : Replacing Li Ion batteries with Lead Acid won't happen - too big and too heavy to work. As was posted above, we can't be certain that the battery isn'
144 Post contains links caliatenza : http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...-decision/articleshow/18056706.cms AI has also grounded the Dreamliner.
145 707lvr : Enough people will be watching it fall in order to buy (as we/they have for years, decades,) and it will ease right back up.
146 RicknRoll : Even after the battery/managenent system problem is fixed, the containment failure also has to be addressed.
147 PlanesNTrains : Captain X was a pariah on this forum. They stirred the pot, made baseless allegations, and created a lot of drama that was not needed. That things we
148 SonomaFlyer : I'm happy to be corrected but I thought the containment system was focused on "thermal containment" i.e. if the battery burned, the fire couldn't spr
149 Post contains images astuteman : time to buy then...... I'd be even more miserable if the issues to date pointed to a fundamental flaw in the technology paradigm shift that underpins
150 BoeingVista : Self stroking? Sometimes people need to be told that they were wrong so that they can evaluate their past actions, I personally still don't think tha
151 Post contains links rcair1 : This could be "teething problems." Nobody said teething problems could not be serious - just that teething problems can be related to new products. A
152 UA772IAD : The FAA is not in the business of promoting a PR point of view. This was an emergency AD issued by a government agency. This was not Boeing issuing a
153 BoeingVista : The containment system has nothing to do with this really, the certification special requirement was for the battery to remain intact not about the c
154 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Ya, you know, like this: Those, for example. Can't imagine why? Wow. In the process, do you ever reflect on your comments? Just curious. Ha ha ha ha
155 CO953 : Yeah, sorry, I didn't write that clearly. All day I've been writing a bit fuzzy without being crystal clear, and have been misunderstood by several p
156 bluesky73 : I can see one UA 788 in the air still but coming into Tokyo. I can't see any others globally. Real shame to the Dreamliner, but hopefully fixes will b
157 COEWR787 : DGCA of India has ordered grounding of the AI 787s on the 16th. Including the infamous Pitot Tubes that are no longer used. Cargo door mod was after
158 infinit : Although this would cost the industry a lot, grounding the fleet might actually be for the better. If the incidences do indeed point to specific probl
159 Post contains links rcair1 : Danger - science content ahead. We've been talking about the high energy density of a Li-Ion battery - me included - so I thought I'd do a little res
160 N14AZ : I am shocked by this statement. Seems that you are very very dissapointed to develop such a "theory". Psychology at it's best... Does anybody have an
161 Superfly : I hear what you're saying but how much of the 787 is actually made in the United States? Hasn't production been outsourced to over a dozen different
162 UA772IAD : Got it! Arguably, this kept Boeing from not making a choice- at least until the next potential 787 incident.
163 Post contains links bobdino : Interestingly, in 2006 a test of the 787 battery system caused a fire that burned down the admin building of the company that made the charger. Subseq
164 spacecadet : And the 737 had a rudder design flaw, and the DC-10 had a cargo door flaw, etc. etc. I'm not sure what the point is of arguments that compare the 787
165 BoeingVista : Yup I do. You clearly are not that self aware.. Now do you have any comment on the substance of my post, ie I was right? Or are you still in denial..
166 spacecadet : I will be surprised if it's not weeks, or even longer. First, they need to figure out what the problem actually is. Then, they need to figure out how
167 FlyingAY : To be honest, we don't know that, which is probably one of the reasons why the plane has been grounded. The battery might be perfectly good, but the
168 ikramerica : Kind of puts the kibosh on the idea of a hybrid electric aircraft. Imagine these batteries in larger sizes and quantities.
169 PlanesNTrains : A comment on your self-engrandizing? I thought that was already covered. As far as me being in denial, what have I stated that you would dub "in deni
170 Aaron747 : Trying to avoid the emotional baggage and just looking at things logically here. CM, the inquiring mind wonders who the supplier of the main battery
171 blueflyer : I was wondering whether the AD will also prevent Boeing from conducting test, delivery and ferry flights? If so, how long can the AD remain in effect
172 PlanesNTrains : I'm pretty sure someone stated that both the main battery and the APU battery had the same part number. -Dave
173 rcair1 : I'm not CM, but somebody (either CM or Tdscanuk) said the part number was the same and the batteries could be swapped. The APU battery could be put i
174 spacecadet : Why? The Japanese don't care who the supplier of the battery is. It's a plane designed, built and tested by Boeing, and the one that evac'd yesterday
175 Post contains links CM : The original charter of the FAA (see the 1926 Air Commerce Act) did include "promotion" of the industry. Although the legal definition of that part o
176 AltairF28 : Just out of curiosity I went to united.com and tried to book LAX-NRT for tomorrow (1/18) and DEN-NRT for 4/1 (I figured the inaugural flight on 3/31 w
177 blueflyer : I haven't seen any official announcement, but I think we can nevertheless add Ethiopian's to the list of grounded 787 fleet. Today's 787 flights to JN
178 CM : These were lithium-ion batteries made by Secureplane. They are small (about the size of a deck of cards) and are used in the emergency cabin lighting
179 Post contains images bj87 : I hope they get this thing back in the air in a hurry. This thing is giving Boeing one hell of a migraine. I am more of a Douglas/Airbus fan but the 7
180 Post contains links airboe : Hi In the Danish media, it is now reported that the European Authorities has grounded it as well. Link: http://epn.dk/brancher/transport/luft/article4
181 RussianJet : Assuming that the flight can be fulfilled by other equipment if necessary then why on earth not? Strange question.
182 AirbusA6 : This all goes to show why the likes of British Airways are refusing to be launch customers for a new type any more, especially with such a radically n
183 Post contains links gemuser : I can't see any other reference in this thread to the actual AD, I could have missed it, so here it is: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...f4a/$FI
184 parapente : I am sure that the FAA did their very best to certify this aircraft- to the best of their abilities.However the knowledge they have is built up over m
185 Dano1977 : After ANA and JAL grounded their fleets, I don't think the FAA had much choice. Imagine the repocussions if a 787 had gone down over the pacific or At
186 Post contains links rheinwaldner : IMO the problem could have been, that these conditions have been met, but the written conditions itself have been incomplete or even faulty. Here is
187 blueflyer : Just like Ethiopian Airlines, Qatar Airways has made no official announcement that I could find, but their fleet is grounded as well. Flights that wer
188 morvious : Certainly not an overreaction. Lets just hope that the problems can be solved soon.
189 817Dreamliiner : From their facebook page:
190 capri : So FAA grounded 787, this is a very minus point for a.net to delete a thread yesterday about a petition to FAA to ground it and Boeing lawyers hasslin
191 a36001 : well took them longer than I thought they would take, but as I have said before Air India will dine out on this for ever. Get ready for the longest d
192 Post contains links ZKOJH : Now we can add Qatar to the list Qatar Airways grounds Boeing 787 Dreamliners, cancels Perth-Doha debut Qatar Airways has grounded its fleet of Boeing
193 Post contains links bobdino : This Flightglobal article ( http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...7-into-uncharted-territory-381148/ ) references a GS Yuasa battery being involved
194 Post contains links Badmax : ch-aviation has published the specific status of each B787! http://www.ch-aviation.ch/blog/2013/...rrent-status-of-b787-8-operations/
195 cc2314 : Lots of dull and glum for the 787/boeing..Seeing as the problem seems to be in the one area im sure they will have it sorted soon!
196 sankaps : Why are you so fixated on Air India? What have they done to you? This issue is much bigger than that!
197 upperdeck : I completely agree. The post was deleted because it was deemed to be of 'low quality' but it was well written, albeit controversial. The number of Bo
198 Post contains links AirbusA370 : Flightaware shows an ANA flight from Tokyo to Seattle in the air. Are they returning the aircraft? http://de.flightaware.com/live/flight/ANA1078
199 LU9092 : The 787, in my opinion, is the ultimate example of what happens when executives become more focused on the stock price than they are on the product. B
200 aeroblogger : How long did you think it would take? AI grounded the fleet at 8 AM on the next workday...
201 Post contains links capri : that is a scheduled flight but it's operated today by 777, flightradar24 is more updated than flightaware http://www.flightradar24.com/ana1078#!/2013
202 bueb0g : Eh? First amendment? To start with, you're not from the US... And more importantly, even if everyone here was American, you can't cite "first amendme
203 robffm2 : Don't think so. The plane certainly still at Takamatsu. I tend to believe this is the regular flight and Flightaware just didn't get the type right.
204 parapente : R 202 "the mods here can do whatever they want with whatever you've written, " They can and indeed they do,it is only from time to time when such a re
205 upperdeck : Err I made no reference to freedom of speech, only the contradiction of removing posts that in no way violate the terms of this forum when the countr
206 DTW2HYD : Not really. Even yesterday DGCA official was confident about their birds. AI engineers did their own thorough check of all systems and 3 Boeing engin
207 moo : Yes you did: The First Amendment begins "Congress shall make no law...", its a protection from the government, not from anyone else. Airliners.Net is
208 Kaiarahi : Obviously the FAA administrator read your posts on these threads and acted on them. What really puzzles me, though, is that Mr Huerta didn't also act
209 bwvilla : Who was the petition from? Would the FAA have been aware of that petition when they decided that the 787 must be grounded?
210 konrad : This last statement is not correct. The european dreamtour flights ended on January 14. The present schedules for the two dreamliners of LOT are LO3/
211 upperdeck : I merely pointed out the contradiction. I don't believe you should be allowed to post what you want on here, but I do believe that posts which are pe
212 Post contains links joge : Seems like JAL has decided to keep their Dreamliners grounded for at least a week. "All Nippon, with 17 Dreamliners in its fleet, said it will cancel
213 flyglobal : Oh Boys - his is not good. The case sounds a bit similar to what GM happened to the Chevy Volt a year or two ago! A Chevy Volt car caught fire about t
214 uta999 : Question: Is the problem with the 787 batteries related to them constantly being charged to 100% when in operation? That should be easy to fix at leas
215 capri : someone started a thread with some hot and controversial infos about FAA and Boeing "relationship" , things got heated up and thread was deleted, peo
216 wjcandee : I'm curious. Maybe I overlooked the answer to this in the thousands of posts of pure drivel in these threads, but... Does anybody know what the "speci
217 LU9092 : I doubt it's relevant. This is a case of "better safe than sorry" on the part of the FAA, and perhaps even some folks at Boeing, in response to two p
218 Post contains links B4REAL : Looks like JAL8 is operating as B777 today ;( http://flightaware.com/live/flight/J...8/history/20130117/0240Z/RJAA/KBOS Silver lining: BOS Spotters ca
219 babybus : Surely Boeing have enough money and enough political pull to get this story buried? In fact they should never have let the reports be published in the
220 parapente : Reply 216 Good post ! well spotted. Like you I don't have time to read everything. But from what you say the FAA did know there was an issue - that gi
221 nomadd22 : Exactly my thoughts. Every problem we've experienced like this happened from overheating during the final stage when the charger forces that last 10%
222 SInGAPORE_AIR : What's Ethiopian Airlines doing ?
223 Post contains images lightsaber : This is not good. But also not that surprising. I hope a solution is found soon. The news makes me sad, but that is the enthusiast in me. A $0.93 drop
224 rcair1 : Yes. See
225 art : Could that be quick and simple to do with a minor adjustment to control software? eg value x represents battery capacity (1), value y represents char
226 CALTECH : Cannot give sources. Earlier in 2010, concerns about batteries that were only giving 6 months of life, now with a change, they are supposedly able to
227 Unflug : You didn't only try hard, I think you did a great Job at it - thanks for your contributions!
228 bueb0g : Grounded their 787s too. Total 787 world fleet is grounded.
229 Thomas_Jaeger : All B787-8 aircraft are in ADD now, flights have been rescheduled and equipment types changed around.
230 Aaron747 : I was speaking to a Japanese friend who does automobile battery R&D and he was saying tonight that in that industry it does sometimes take time f
231 max999 : Per the Wall Street Journal, swapping battery type used is not a simple thing considering how integrated the electrical systems are.
232 rcair1 : That is not the Japanese culture. They will and do most certainly care about this.
233 Post contains links Revelation : Good point. I guess the trick then is that you need to find a way to contain the liquid electrolytes while allowing the gasses to vent, which seems t
234 Daysleeper : Very noble sentiments, and certainly there are some Boeing employees which post here who try very hard to maintain such standards. You however are no
235 warreng24 : Didn't see this posted yet, but UA has loaded substitute flights (at least for 18 January only). LAX-NRT as UA1760 operated by (ironically) N787UA (PM
236 Capt.Fantastic : Are there any 787s resting at LAX? I know United cancelled its flight to NRT today, not sure if equipment was already there: or if LAN had a bird park
237 Post contains links KarelXWB : Ethiopian Airlines has confirmed it has temporarily suspended use of its Boeing 787s following FAA’s emergency airworthiness directive issued on the
238 CM : If you would be so kind, it would be helpful to me if you would post (or PM me) the quotes from me which you are referencing. I believe you have just
239 SCL767 : LAN's three B-787s are parked at SCL. All LAN operated flights to LAX will be operated with the B763s.
240 Revelation : Absurd statement. Open your eyes and "surely" you will see this is not the case. Right on!
241 Post contains links Daysleeper : Your conduct towards the end of this thread is what I'm referring too. And the only post of mine deleted from that thread was an empty one posted in
242 Tristarsteve : But what is this massive electrical demand. All airliners use a battery for the dead busbar once in a lifetime case. A B744 gets away with a battery
243 Stitch : The 787 uses electric systems in a number of areas where other commercial airliners use pneumatic systems. As such, the electrical demands of the 787
244 capri : I can imagine now MEL/CDL list related to electrical/battery issues in the future if there will be no redesigning the whole thing from the start
245 amciver : Is it time to re-open the 767 production line?
246 Revelation : I think you are overreacting. The context was your threat to publish material that was Boeing property that Boeing was asserting ownership on. Assert
247 Stitch : The 767 line is still in operation.
248 Post contains links mke717spotter : Flightaware is showing another 787 enroute from WAW to ORD. I'm guessing its a mistake by the website? http://flightaware.com/live/flight/LOT3
249 Post contains images COEWR787 : When did it close?
250 CALTECH : Braking is one. What happens if there is no ground power or engine power available ? It does happen in remote parking areas. The aircraft should be a
251 CM : Thanks for that. So you are taking issue with the fact I called you out for an action which had already been deemed by lawyers at a.net, and many new
252 SCL767 : LAN Airlines still has B-767-316ERs on order and will receive CC-BDM this month.
253 Post contains links Aither : It comes from an old debate althouth the batteries in question only provide the initial power : http://www.designnews.com/document.a...d_182,aid_2223
254 jcwr56 : It's SP-LPE (763) operating today's flight. The 787 parked on M12 is still be worked on and they are hoping to ferry it back to WAW as a Tech flight
255 7BOEING7 : The APU battery provides power to start the APU (when you don't have external power or the engines aren't running) and powers the navigation lights du
256 konrad : I don't buy it. Wouldn't a compressor issue in-flight over Greenland make them to divert straight to Goose Bay or someplace close?
257 Post contains images CM : With electric brakes on the 787, the batteries essentially take up the role of the hydraulic accumulators on a more traditional airplane architecture
258 Post contains links frmrcapcadet : http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...149254_787batteryexplainerxml.html A Seattle Times article discussing background issues relating to lithium ion
259 7BOEING7 : Could have been a CAC (cabin air compressor) issue--so as long as they could maintain pressurization they coud continue to the destination.
260 kanban : Yuasa makes these batteries for many land surface operations, trains, trucks, etc. and seem to have no problems. Possibly could the problem be related
261 Post contains links iowaman : As this thread has reached over 260 replies please continue the discussion on thread #2: FAA Grounds 787 Part #2 (by iowaman Jan 17 2013 in Civil Avia
262 IBOAviator : [edit] I moved my post to Part 2 as this thread is now archived. Regards, IBO[Edited 2013-01-17 10:31:22]
263 PassedV1 : I am not an engineer, I am a mere pilot, and before the last week I had (and still have) very little understanding of the nuiances between the variou
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