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Delta Applies For FLL-MEX Service  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26168 posts, RR: 50
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6664 times:

Delta Air Lines today applied with the DOT for authority to operate between Ft. Lauderdale and Mexico City.

Delta states if plans to offer daily service on the route commencing July 2013 utilizing 160-seat Boeing 737 aircraft.
However DL also request the flexibility depending on market demand to operate the service on a seasonal basis.


OST-2013-TBA


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6621 times:

How long before JetBlue and Spirit apply to make it a competition?


a.
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6614 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6502 times:
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Didn´t AM served this route for a while? If I´m right, why did they stop?

User currently onlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1066 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6368 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
However DL also request the flexibility depending on market demand to operate the service on a seasonal basis.

What would the high season be for South Florida-MEX?


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6225 times:

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 3):
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
However DL also request the flexibility depending on market demand to operate the service on a seasonal basis.

What would the high season be for South Florida-MEX?

It's a consistently busy market, around 600 PDEW.

I guess high would be July/August and December-April, if anything.



a.
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1033 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6186 times:

It always surprises how little int'l service FLL gets (and yes I'm aware MIA is near by)

User currently offlineshadez From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5703 times:

What's Delta's rationale behind launching this route? Why will they fair better than AM did? Will this go the way of their FLL-SDQ route?

User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2908 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5666 times:

FLL: DL has been busy slashing service as the LCCs have been adding flights during recent years. This would certainly be the first new route added from FLL in a long time. Why would they do this now, when they have a weaker presence than ever before? Seems like mission better suited for AM...

MEX: DL has, as with most other Mexican markets both VFR and leisure, tried just about everything they can think of in the past 5 years or so. The only stuff that works? The established routes to strong hubs at ATL, JFK, and DTW. I don't see how FLL would fare any differently from the likes of SLC, MEM, MSP, MCO...

FLL-MEX is probably a viable route, but I would expect a Mexican carrier like AM, Y4, or 4O to do it, or perhaps an American LCC - NK has opted to serve Mexico City via TLC, but there is B6 and even FL/WN...



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7279 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5588 times:

A little surprised they picked FLL over MIA. When is the last time they expanded at FLL? At the same time it will be a bit less competition at FLL obviously.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineMexicana757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3047 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5440 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 1):
How long before JetBlue and Spirit apply to make it a competition?

I dont believe we will see Spirit applying, they're already flying FLL-TLC. Jetblue, WN/ FL may react or maybe Volaris will finally decide to launch the route.


User currently offlinenjdevilsin03 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5435 times:

Volaris sounds like a great addition for FLL, surprised it hasn't happened yet.


717, 727, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 753, 762, 763, 777, DC9, MD80, DC10, L1011, ERJ, CRJ, ATR, DH8, A300,
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5554 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5436 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 7):

And, we'd jump right in and try it. (Once WN gets the International Certificate) then let the competiton in earnest begin.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 857 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5419 times:

Could DL have done better with FLL-LHR vs MIA-LHR?

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7279 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5366 times:

Quoting questions (Reply 12):

The slot was for MIA so I don't think they had a choice. As for doing better or not ehh probably not. For a flight like that the customer base is pretty much the same. Maybe they could get some traffic that would rather go PBI-ATL-LHR or something instead of driving to MIA. Since no national carrier from the states or Europe has tried FLL-Europe there has to be something up with the market. Maybe it would just be difficult to compete with the airlines at MIA.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5288 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 5):
It always surprises how little int'l service FLL gets (and yes I'm aware MIA is near by)
Quoting flymia (Reply 13):
Since no national carrier from the states or Europe has tried FLL-Europe there has to be something up with the market.


I am not surprised at all. Almost nobody in Europe knows what or where Fort Lauderdale is and obviously everyone knows about Miami. Not much different in Latin America. Maybe for Port Everglades... but it is not a big deal to drive from there to MIA anyway... FLL is a huge US/Canada destination, but it is not internationally known.

I reckon the only way to market it for Europe would be calling it Miami-North "a la Ryanair". Even Spirit calls it "Miami, FL Area - Fort Lauderdale, FL (FLL)".


User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3719 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 14):

Disagree. Many Europeans own property in Boca Raton & Palm Beach, which if landing in Miami, you have pass Ft Lauderdale on 95 to get to Boca. The amount of wealth up that way is astounding. On a recent boat trip I took up the Intercoastal, I counted at least 5-6 waterfront homes with Norwegian and Swedish flags out front.

Indeed, Lynn University attracts PLENTY of international students to boot. I've seen it firsthand.

Polo, tennis, golf...I could go on for a while

The European airlines go to Miami because they have more to gain by going there with regards to feed.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7279 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5116 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 14):

So if FLL was called Miami/Ft. Lauderdale airport it would have a better chance for European service? FLL is 20 miles north of MIA. Many airports across the world which are the cities main international gateways are farther than that from the city center like IAD. I think MIA just has more to offer. FLL does rank in the top 20 in International passengers in the U.S. just weak on Europe. Condor could not make it work either.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineshadez From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4879 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 16):
Condor could not make it work either.

Condor will increase to 4x weekly this summer.


User currently offlinepvd757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3420 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4879 times:

Didn't NK have rights on this route a few years back? There was a flurry of Florida-Mexico applications when they changed the limits to 2 Mexico + 2 US flag carriers in the larger US-Mexico markets a few years ago.

User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6936 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4826 times:

Quoting questions (Reply 12):
ve done better with FLL-LHR vs MIA-LHR?

Doubt it. The market is just not there for them. They are better off flying them through ATL.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineJosh32121 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4713 times:

Some airlines (including DL, I think) used to list FLL flights under "Miami" with an airport identifier "F" for FLL and "M" for MIA similiar to listing LGA, JFK, and EWR flights together under "New York."

One issue with offering more international service from FLL besides the market economics is the fact that only T4 has FIS, and I believe it's pretty packed. DL's terminal at FLL does not have FIS, so I assume this MEX flight or any other would have to arrive at T4 and then be towed back to T2 for later departure.


User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4701 times:

Is there any thread out there listing DL's off hub/focus city flying that is within North America?

User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4685 times:

Quoting shadez (Reply 6):
What's Delta's rationale behind launching this route?

No Kidding????? What is the point of this?? It adds nothing to Delta's overall franchise as a company.

Quoting flymia (Reply 8):
A little surprised they picked FLL over MIA. When is the last time they expanded at FLL?

Neither make sense and MIA makes even less sense

Quoting questions (Reply 12):
Could DL have done better with FLL-LHR vs MIA-LHR?

The award was for a market served by both AA and BA where no other carrier had service. Their choice was MIA or DFW.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17827 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4639 times:

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 15):

The European airlines go to Miami because they have more to gain by going there with regards to feed.

They go to MIA because that's where the facilities and runways are big enough to consistently handle the traffic; there's not much feed to be had beyond MIA, even for oneworld carriers.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6357 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4562 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
there's not much feed to be had beyond MIA, even for oneworld carriers.

You are kidding right?

AA feeds hoards of pax of its Caribbean and Central American flight on to its (and other OW carriers) LHR, MAD etc.

A few months ago I did LHR-MIA and standing at the luggage carosel and I saw bags tagged for onward travel to GCM, POS, MCO, LAX (yes can you believe that), LIM, MGA, TGU, SJO, MBJ, VVI, EYW, NAS and PAP....thats when I got my bag as I was going on to BZE.

In two weeks I am doing BZE-MIA-CTG....on a single ticket AA/AV (Y ticket: US$1400).....Yes, MIA has lots of O&D, but it also serves a very lucrative connecting market.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17827 posts, RR: 46
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4721 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 24):
You are kidding right?

Nope, of course AA feeds traffic but international-international connections present a few more obstacles than domestic-international or domestic-domestic, so while MIA certainly connects passengers, it doesn't do so on the same level as DFW. And non oneworld airlines are certainly not flying to MIA for connections. I'd bet that BA's DFW flight has a much higher proportion of beyond DFW passengers than MIA.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6357 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4620 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 25):
I'd bet that BA's DFW flight has a much higher proportion of beyond DFW passengers than MIA.

Yes, but to say the MIA feed is

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
not much

is just not accurate.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4385 times:

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 15):
Disagree. Many Europeans own property in Boca Raton & Palm Beach, which if landing in Miami, you have pass Ft Lauderdale on 95 to get to Boca. The amount of wealth up that way is astounding. On a recent boat trip I took up the Intercoastal, I counted at least 5-6 waterfront homes with Norwegian and Swedish flags out front.


I am not saying there are no Europeans in those areas (and certainly the likes of Palm Beach or Boca Raton are more appealing and known than Ft Lauderdale in Europe), as well in other areas of Florida. But the two massive areas for tourism from Europe and Latin America in Florida are Miami and Orlando. Fort Lauderdale and Palm Beach County are massive areas for tourists from the US and Canada but not from Europe.

The issue here is that FLL itself is a "massive" domestic beach destination. Massive beach destinations in a country/continent are often massive mainly because how convenient/easy/cheap are to get to are... if you discount that factor (i.e. a long haul flight, passport, international insureance), it does not make any sense. You are not flying from Europe to be in an sterile beach in Florida (I mean, I have been to FLL and it is not anything you could not find in many places in one or other way in Europe), the same way that Americans are not flying to Europe to go to the beach in Benidorm or Antalya. Of course Palm Beach is another story, but that is like suggesting that some high-end tourists from the US vacationing in Ibiza, Sardinia or the Croatian coast would be enough to sustain a direct flight to the US from those places.

If tourism from Europe would be so significant in FLL, they could easily duplicate services to MIA and FLL like they do in JFK/EWR. But they don't, only Condor flies FRA-FLL.

Driving from Palm Beach to MIA VS FLL is just half an hour more and MIA has plenty of options to connect to get anywhere. And when you have a 7-8 hour flight ahead (instead of a 2-3 hour domestic flight), those 30 minutes are not a big deal.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 15):
Indeed, Lynn University attracts PLENTY of international students to boot. I've seen it firsthand.


You gotta be kidding. A university that probably no one knows outside of Palm Beach County (for other thing that being a party place). According to Lynn University website:

http://www.lynn.edu/about-lynn/news-...sity2019s-enrollment-numbers-swell

():
The previous high for international students was 126 in 2005.
Top nations represented in order by citizenship are Colombia, Saudi Arabia, China, Mexico, Italy, Canada, Turkey, United Kingdom, Ecuador and Spain.


So even if the numbers have exploded since the very last previous high for international students, I would be interested to know how those (probably a few dozens of Europeans) students would help to any kind of commercial service.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 15):
The European airlines go to Miami because they have more to gain by going there with regards to feed.


European airlines go to Miami because most Europeans want to go to Miami, not to Fort Lauderdale. Of course feed does not hurt either.


User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3447 posts, RR: 6
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3310 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 1):
How long before JetBlue and Spirit apply to make it a competition?

It would be interesting to see JetBlue on the route, since they seem to have managed to get Spirit to reduce FLL-KIN and FLL-NAS to seasonal routes.

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 20):
One issue with offering more international service from FLL besides the market economics is the fact that only T4 has FIS, and I believe it's pretty packed. DL's terminal at FLL does not have FIS, so I assume this MEX flight or any other would have to arrive at T4 and then be towed back to T2 for later departure.

Terminal 4 is madhouse around 10:30 AM when Spirit's Latin American and Caribbean flights are departing. The terminal is either at or overcapacity and relief is long overdue. Condor currently arrives at Terminal 4 and then tows their 767 to Terminal 2 for departure.


User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3719 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3295 times:

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 27):

I can't single out certain parts of your rebuttal since I on an iPad and it doesn't seem able to cope with selective copying on this site. But I'll say I agree with most of what you say. Disagree on a little but we are in the same ballpark. Good enough.

That being said, ont forget one the presidential debates was held at Lynn. The 3rd maybe? Someone knows where it is  



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6357 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

What are the odds that DL is testing a SoFLa market in the hopes of setting up a focus city at MIA or FLL. We know that they long at AA with their great O&D yields and drool.


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3093 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 1):
How long before JetBlue and Spirit apply to make it a competition?


With AA already at MIA and DL at FLL doesn't that make it two US carriers in the market to MEX? Are FLL/MIA considered the same market as EWR/JFK? Only two US carriers can serve MEX from a single market.

At LAX it's AS and UA, from NY it's UA at EWR and DL at JFK. From MIA it used to be EA and PA, then AA and UA. Right now it's just AA, by DL launching FLL-MEX they might have blocked any other carriers from entering the market.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 2987 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 30):
What are the odds that DL is testing a SoFLa market in the hopes of setting up a focus city at MIA or FLL. We know that they long at AA with their great O&D yields and drool.

Well they failed bitterly with their LHR and intra-Florida flights from MIA. They can drool all they want, Invalids drool also.


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 31):
With AA already at MIA and DL at FLL doesn't that make it two US carriers in the market to MEX? Are FLL/MIA considered the same market as EWR/JFK? Only two US carriers can serve MEX from a single market.

DOT does not consider MIA/FLL as one. Back when CUN was still 2 carriers only, there was US, NK and AA.



a.
User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2650 times:

Where does DL-owned metal fly within North America that is not to/from BOS/LGA/JFK/DCA/ATL/SLC/MSP/DTW/LAX/MCO/CUN/MEM/CVG? Can they be counted on a hand or two?

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta Air Lines today applied with the DOT for authority to operate between Ft. Lauderdale and Mexico City.

Why isn't US-Mexico Open Skies? Seems long overdue for two such close neighbors. Obviously it's not the US that's opposed to it considering their 100 or more other Open Skies agreements worldwide, many involving markets far smaller than US-Mexico.

Seems ironic considering the 1994 North American Free Trade Agreement. I realize that agreement excluded air transportation, but Canada and the US reached an open skies agreement in 1995 which has been very beneficial to both US and Canadian carriers. Why not Mexico with 3 times Canada's population?


User currently offlinesanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2585 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
Why isn't US-Mexico Open Skies? Seems long overdue for two such close neighbors. Obviously it's not the US that's opposed to it considering their 100 or more other Open Skies agreements worldwide, many involving markets far smaller than US-Mexico.

Because of bureaucracy, Mexico is a very corrupt country, sad really....


User currently onlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2370 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2549 times:

Quoting santi319 (Reply 36):
Because of bureaucracy, Mexico is a very corrupt country, sad really....

I doubt it is because of corruption, more likely for protectionist reasons. The American airlines probably would have crushed the Mexican ones, who had traditionally been financially weak.


User currently offlinesanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2487 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 37):
The American airlines probably would have crushed the Mexican ones, who had traditionally been financially weak.

Exactly, because they are run by bureaucrats....


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6357 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 32):
Well they failed bitterly with their LHR and intra-Florida flights from MIA.

THat is far different that MIA-LatAm/Caribbean



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently onlineadamh8297 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1066 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

Quoting Sligo (Reply 34):

Where does DL-owned metal fly within North America that is not to/from BOS/LGA/JFK/DCA/ATL/SLC/MSP/DTW/LAX/MCO/CUN/MEM/CVG? Can they be counted on a hand or two?

Are you looking at mainline aircraft only. If so you have: HNL-SFO/SEA

Plus RDU-TPA/BDL/BWI (done by Pinnacle/Express Jet)


User currently offlineHVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2163 times:

Quoting Sligo (Reply 34):

Where does DL-owned metal fly within North America that is not to/from BOS/LGA/JFK/DCA/ATL/SLC/MSP/DTW/LAX/MCO/CUN/MEM/CVG? Can they be counted on a hand or two?

For mainline, probably not much other than the HNL flights mentioned above.

But DL owns a lot of their Connection metal, and there's still quite a few P2P routes over at Connection - RDU routes, FLL-TLH, and MCI routes come to mind. While much more hub-spoke focused than in the past, DL through its Connection carriers still probably has the most extensive P2P network of any US legacy.


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