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Northeast Airlines Convair 880 Fleet  
User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 529 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4528 times:

How many Convair 880s did Northeast have in their fleet.I also know they had one Convair 990 also. When NE retiered their 880 fleet did some go to TWA?

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4409 times:

Looks like they had 10, total.........6 were leased from General Dynamics and 4 were leased from Hughes Tool Co. The first 6 were leased from '60 - '63 and the last 4 were leased from '61 - '68. Don't know if any went to TWA.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineYukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4383 times:
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Mr. Mayor,

The initial batch of six 880s later joined the TWA fleet.
From the second batch of four ships, only N8495H (MSN 39) served with TW (albeit briefly), on a sub-lease from NE in May '67. Coincidentally, this 880 was originally intended for TWA as N829TW and served as ship # 8829 while a part of the Starstream 880 fleet.



Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
User currently offlinedeltacto From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4074 times:

10 Total CV-880's

http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/fleets/ne.html


User currently offlineLGA777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1147 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3923 times:

I am curious as to some of the city pairs these 880 served, I presume primarily BOS and JFK to Florida?

Thanks

LGA777


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2991 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3893 times:

Learn something new everyday. I never knew that Northeast also flew a 990, ex-AA apparently. I confirmed that on another web site.

I thought there was only one airline that flew both the 880 and 990. There were two. Anybody know the other?

[Edited 2013-01-18 19:04:43]

User currently offlinemuzyck From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3856 times:
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Swissair flew both. Correct?

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Quoting muzyck (Reply 6):
Swissair flew both. Correct?

That is correct. Swissair flew the 880s while waiting for their 990s.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3824 times:

Excepting the Concorde, don't the 880's still hold the record for the fastest commercial jet? I was fortunate enough to fly them when they were with Delta.

Jim


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2991 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3822 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
Quoting muzyck (Reply 6):
Swissair flew both. Correct?

That is correct. Swissair flew the 880s while waiting for their 990s.

Oh, I thought the other answer was AS.

Where did NE's fly? I'm also assuming JFK and BOS to Florida. Is that right?


User currently offlineYukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3818 times:
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Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 5):
I thought there was only one airline that flew both the 880 and 990. There were two. Anybody know the other?

Educationally speaking...
this is turning out to be a banner day for you Mr. Boeing.

You'll want to add Alaska Airlines to the list:

"Four Jets Daily between Seattle and Anchorage!"

 

Edit...

a timely save on your part, well done!

[Edited 2013-01-18 19:52:44]


Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2991 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3752 times:

Quoting airtechy (Reply 8):
Excepting the Concorde, don't the 880's still hold the record for the fastest commercial jet? I was fortunate enough to fly them when they were with Delta.

Close. It was the 990 that was the fastest sub-sonic jet. The 880 was a bit faster than average also though. However, from what I understand the 990s weren't flown at their max cruise speed since it was expensive to do so.

Quoting Yukon880 (Reply 10):
Educationally speaking...
this is turning out to be a banner day for you Mr. Boeing.

You'll want to add Alaska Airlines to the list:

"Four Jets Daily between Seattle and Anchorage!"

I was thinking AS. I didn't know about Swissair having 880s. Yeah, how many daily flights from SEA-ANC? And SEA was their only lower-48 destination. I'm sure AS in LIH, PVR, SNA and FLL was pretty unthinkable back then. The thought of AS flying 707s (and having a 747 on order at one point) might be unthinkable to us now though.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 11):
Close. It was the 990 that was the fastest sub-sonic jet. The 880 was a bit faster than average also though. However, from what I understand the 990s weren't flown at their max cruise speed since it was expensive to do so.

It is interesting to note, that to get even close to its "promised" speed, the 990 had to cruise at 21,500' ... and at that speed and altitude, the aircraft was burning more per mile (not per seat mile, but per mile) than a Boeing 707 with JT3Ds, with about 50 less passengers!

When cruised at higher altitudes, its range promises were met, but not speed promises. It was somewhat efficient (for the day) when cruising slower at higher altitudes. However, the seat mile costs were still quite a bit higher than a B707 or B720 with P&W JT3Ds.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3700 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 11):
Close. It was the 990 that was the fastest sub-sonic jet. The 880 was a bit faster than average also though. However, from what I understand the 990s weren't flown at their max cruise speed since it was expensive to do so.

The 990 may have been faster, but it's the 880 that held the speed records......SAN-MIA on DL...3 hrs 31 minutes.....SAN-BOS on TW.....4 hrs 17 minutes to name a couple.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1047 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3562 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 9):
Where did NE's fly? I'm also assuming JFK and BOS to Florida. Is that right?

They made it to Baltimore (BAL), PHL and Montreal (YUL) as well.


User currently offlinesparky35805 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 282 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3403 times:
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Alaska was the only airline to own both types.The other airlines leased aircraft.
Sparky


User currently offlinemetjetCEO From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 411 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3350 times:

If I remember correctly from an article I read... The 990s never were painted in northeast colors

User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1047 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3344 times:

Quoting metjetCEO (Reply 16):
If I remember correctly from an article I read... The 990s never were painted in northeast colors

There was only one NE Convair 990, N5612, ex-American. It was painted in full Yellowbird paint.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3344 times:

Quoting metjetCEO (Reply 16):
If I remember correctly from an article I read... The 990s never were painted in northeast colors

I think you mean "The 990 never was painted..." There was only one as far as I know.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2991 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3320 times:

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 17):
Quoting metjetCEO (Reply 16):
If I remember correctly from an article I read... The 990s never were painted in northeast colors

There was only one NE Convair 990, N5612, ex-American. It was painted in full Yellowbird paint.

Yep, it was painted in NE yellow. Scroll down towards the bottom.

http://www.planeviz.com/blog/2012-03/northeast-airlines-yellowbirds/


User currently offlinemetjetCEO From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 411 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3308 times:

Viscount I meant never

User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6794 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 13):
SAN-BOS on TW.....4 hrs 17 minutes

Why and when was TW (or anyone) flying an 880 SAN-BOS?


User currently offlineYukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3196 times:
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Quoting timz (Reply 21):

Why and when was TW (or anyone) flying an 880 SAN-BOS?

This was the delivery flight of the first of the 880s leased to Northeast, handed over on 30Nov60.
Four 880s were on hand when Northeast inaugurated jet service from BOS to MIA via PHL on 15Dec60.



Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3183 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 11):
Close. It was the 990 that was the fastest sub-sonic jet. The 880 was a bit faster than average also though. However, from what I understand the 990s weren't flown at their max cruise speed since it was expensive to do so.

Let's not forget the DC-8-43 N6904Z, later delivered to Canadian Pacific as CF-CPG. On August 21, 1961 it achieved Mach 1.012 on a test flight, diving from 52,000 feet. Supersonic speed was achieved around FL410, with a TAS of 660 mph. This a/c was also the first transport to haul a payload up to 50,000 ft.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3169 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 21):
Quoting mayor (Reply 13):
SAN-BOS on TW.....4 hrs 17 minutes

Why and when was TW (or anyone) flying an 880 SAN-BOS?

Possibly some special demonstration flight. I don't think TWA had any route authority at SAN before deregulation and I can't recall anyone else operating nonstop SAN-BOS prior to JetBlue (one daily nonstop currently)

Quoting mayor (Reply 13):
but it's the 880 that held the speed records......SAN-MIA on DL...3 hrs 31 minutes....

As a sidenote, the captain on that DL delivery flight SAN-MIA in February 1960 was killed 3 months later on May 23, 1960 in an 880 crash at ATL on a training flight that killed the 4 crew, just a week after DL became the first carrier to put the 880 into service. The 880 that crashed (N8804E) had only been delivered a little over 2 weeks earlier.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...20crash%20atlanta&pg=6419%2C889567
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19600523-0


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3238 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
Let's not forget the DC-8-43 N6904Z, later delivered to Canadian Pacific as CF-CPG. On August 21, 1961 it achieved Mach 1.012 on a test flight, diving from 52,000 feet. Supersonic speed was achieved around FL410, with a TAS of 660 mph. This a/c was also the first transport to haul a payload up to 50,000 ft.

However, the 880 achieved what it did in LEVEL flight, more than likely. These were time/distance records, not just to break Mach.

I know the speed of sound is 690mph at sea level, so what is it at altitude? I seem to remember a DL Tristar hit 600+ (maybe more) on a transatlantic flight to LGW. There happened to be a tremendous jetstream at the time so they got an extra push.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineKC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3204 times:

Speed of sound changes a little based on air temperature, density, etc, so the exact number isn't set in stone. Maybe in ISA conditions though?

User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1074 posts, RR: 7
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

The speed of sound is for all intents and purposes a function of temperature. At sea level Mach 1.0 is 761 mph/646 knots. At FL 350 at an ISA of -56C, it's 660 mph/561 knots.

So...how fast was the Convair 880 in terms of Mach number?

465 knots is an average True Airspeed I've seen for many years, which works out to Mach .80 at FL 350. Convair advertised the 880 as cruising up to 615 MPH. In fact, the 880 name was derived from the velocity of 880 feet per second, which works out to 600 mph (the original name was Convair 600, BTW.) So...

615 mph/535 knots works out to Mach .92 at FL 350 at an OAT of -56C. The first 707 could cruise up to .84 and the DC-8 up to .82. I would guess that .88 to .90 was probably a typical 880 cruise Mach. Still amazing considering this was over 50 years ago!

All this is totally unrelated to jetstreams or any winds aloft. I've seen over 600 knot ground speeds many times over the Pacific; Mach number/speed of sound is only related to the airflow over the aircraft. Tailwinds don't make an aircraft go supersonic. One interesting fact is most of the airflow over the wing of a jetliner at Mach .80 IS supersonic. Under the right conditions a passenger sitting over the wing can actually see the shock wave (the transition of supersonic to subsonic airflow) - I've seen it twice myself.

Mayor, in 1972 I rode on a Delta DC-8 from DAL to MCO, then connected to a DL 880 to PBI. I knew what an 880 was because I had built a model of one; I fully expected it to blast through the sound barrier from Orlando to West Palm Beach!
They made the smoothest landing ever at PBI. I can still remember looking back at that beautiful white bird walking across the ramp. The Convair 880 - coolest commercial jet ever! Check out this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isP1LVVZ6nU

[Edited 2013-01-19 20:04:39]

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5354 posts, RR: 12
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3222 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Possibly some special demonstration flight. I don't think TWA had any route authority at SAN before deregulation and I can't recall anyone else operating nonstop SAN-BOS prior to JetBlue (one daily nonstop currently.)

As already posted, yes, the recored-setting SAN-BOS trip was either a TWA delivery ferry or a demo flight (and probably didn't have much if any payload aboard. )

SAN-BOS has been served nonstop a few times over the years by (at least) UA and AA (both back in the late 60s/70s) and again by AA around 2005-2008. Blue jumped into the market before AA dropped it and has served it continuously since 2007; AS will also start flying the route in 2 months.

bb


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 27):
They made the smoothest landing ever at PBI. I can still remember looking back at that beautiful white bird walking across the ramp. The Convair 880 - coolest commercial jet ever! Check out this video...

One of my biggest regrets of my time at DL was that I never made it a point to ride on an 880.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 13
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3162 times:

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 14):

I can vouch for the Northeast 880 at BAL now known as BWI. The year was 1962. I was five years old happy and sad at the same time. Sad because my grandpa was flying home to MIA. He loved seeing me, my two cousins and baby sister (complete with making snuffle pug dog noises when sleeping, eating, hurling, pooping and crying   . He detested Baltimore, when he discovered Miami in the 40's it was love at first sight and thanks to my grandparents introduced me to air travel and aviation at a very early age. This had to be April or May of 1962. (I have this on my dad's attempts at home movies) we were on the observation deck at then BAL. It was outside and you got in for a nickel. We watched Grandpop mount the air stairs at the hard stand gate. I believe this flight originated in BOS then came to us for an afternoon departure to MIA. The Northeast 880 was on the same pier as Eastern, National, DL and UA so if you hit it right you had a spotters dream. I appreciated this though I was only 5. I remember seeing an Eastern Electra spool up and take off, A DL 880, and saw an Eastern Connie parked farther out on the ramp. For TWA and Pan Am spotting at BAL you had to go back to the main terminal and hook a right and go to the end of airport to their gates. With an infant in hand my parents were not for that though I wanted to check out TWA and Pan AM action.
I never got to ask my parents why we never flew on Northeast. My grandma was also with us. Gramps did as little time in Maryland as he had to. Whereas my grandma hated Florida and would rather spend time with her wacky children and grandchildren so many times they flew seperate flights, seperate days/itineraries. I guess this is where I got my craziness.

Back to their Convairs. How many got the yellow bird scheme? From this thread I learned that Northeast stopped 880 service in 1968. I know they were also flying 727's. What did Northeast do to replace the 880's? Did they just add 727's?
I know DL absorbed Northeast late in 1971. Why did Northeast retire/get rid of their 880's? When did DL stop flying their 880's?

Did Convair prior to their demise have any proposed jets/prototypes?



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3135 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 30):
When did DL stop flying their 880's?

IIRC, DL quit 880 service in '73, probably the fuel crisis that year was a deciding factor.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 30):
Why did Northeast retire/get rid of their 880's?

I imagine it was because they had enough 727-95s and -295s on hand to adequately replace the 880s. By that time they were getting a little long in the tooth and the 727s were more economical.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 13
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3126 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 31):
I imagine it was because they had enough 727-95s and -295s on hand to adequately replace the 880s. By that time they were getting a little long in the tooth and the 727s were more economical.

Thank you Mayor. I always thought the 880's had the upper hand in the range department. I associate the 880'a in the longer range family along with the 707 and the DC8 whereas the 727 were short to medium range. However I'd put the 880's ahead of the 727's in range but a bit behind the long range of the Boeings and Douglas.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3123 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 32):
Thank you Mayor. I always thought the 880's had the upper hand in the range department. I associate the 880'a in the longer range family along with the 707 and the DC8 whereas the 727 were short to medium range. However I'd put the 880's ahead of the 727's in range but a bit behind the long range of the Boeings and Douglas.

From what I've read, apparently the -295s were used on the long range routes that were previously flown by the 880s, but barely adequately.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1047 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3006 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 30):
Back to their Convairs. How many got the yellow bird scheme? From this thread I learned that Northeast stopped 880 service in 1968. I know they were also flying 727's. What did Northeast do to replace the 880's? Did they just add 727's?
I know DL absorbed Northeast late in 1971. Why did Northeast retire/get rid of their 880's? When did DL stop flying their 880's?

Did Convair prior to their demise have any proposed jets/prototypes?

Bear in mind that NE had two distinct batches of 880s: one set from 1961-1963, which consisted of planes that went back to TWA (pre-Yellowbird), and another group that arrived about 1965 and stayed until early 1968. The Yellowbird scheme came along in 1966 and as far as I know all of the 880s in the fleet at that time got painted in the new scheme.

Northeast had a handful of 727-95s, from about 1965, and was the first customer for the -200 in fall 1967. These were early -200s and did not have stellar range capability. At the time, both the 727-95 and the 880 would have beaten out the -200 in the range department. NYC and BOS to MIA was probably ok, but that's it (later NE would get LAX-MIA and could handle that with payload restricted -95s, forget the -295s). The 880, which was gone by then, might have been able to do a transcon, barely, under the best conditions, and at a speed that was optimized for low fuel consumption (TW managed LAX-PIT for example, but I hear that in the case of headwinds, etc, it would have to stop for fuel).

The 880 was an expensive plane to operate and with the 727-295, NE could unload them after the 67/68 holiday season. DL kept the 880s until 12/73, the fuel crisis being the end of them.

Convair had proposed a small twin jet (sort of a mini-737) in the late 60s. Nothing came of it.


User currently offlineYukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2974 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Possibly some special demonstration flight. I don't think TWA had any route authority at SAN before deregulation
Quoting SANFan (Reply 28):
As already posted, yes, the recored-setting SAN-BOS trip was either a TWA delivery ferry or a demo flight (and probably didn't have much if any payload aboard. )

Again, the record setting San Diego to Boston flight was the delivery of Northeast's (not TWA) first Convair 880. Handed over on 30Nov60, and having first flown only 4 days prior, MSN #23/N8483H covered the distance in 4hours 17mins. The second NE 880 arrived in Boston (MSN #22/N8482H) on 5Dec60 taking an additional two minutes over the same route.



Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
User currently offlineYukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2960 times:
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Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 27):
So...how fast was the Convair 880 in terms of Mach number?

Convair published the following figures in the Certificate Limitations section of their FAA approved Airplane Flight Manual...

Maximum Operating Limit Speed/ Vmo/Mmo 373 to 393 KIAS from Sea Level to FL230 and Mach .89 above FL230

Never Exceed Emergency Speed/ Vne/Mne 398 KIAS and Mach .89


With engines built for fast-movers (... so they were thirsty!), it was easy enough to just let the thoroughbred run. Even so, the performance data I have seen would indicate that a more likely range of operation was between Mach .81 to .84, especially in the 880's later years.



Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1074 posts, RR: 7
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2863 times:

Yukon880 - Very good info, better than a marketing influenced guess on my part!

I've always been curious about 880 technical details. I do know that it used both main gear and spoilers for emergency descents, which must have been spectacular! Did the 880 use turbo-compressors for pressureazation like the 707 and DC-8? I see two big air scoops under wing on the fuselage.

Russ Farris


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2875 times:

Quoting Yukon880 (Reply 36):
Never Exceed Emergency Speed/ Vne/Mne 398 KIAS and Mach .89


With engines built for fast-movers (... so they were thirsty!), it was easy enough to just let the thoroughbred run. Even so, the performance data I have seen would indicate that a more likely range of operation was between Mach .81 to .84, especially in the 880's later years.

I once heard a story about this. It seems that the engines (same powerplant as on the B-58) could be overspeeded and crews were admonished to not do this. It was cause for disciplinary action on the company's part.

According to this tale, this particular flight was going MSY-ORD and it was running late. It left the gate 45 minutes late but got into ORD 45 minutes EARLY. The company surmised that the only way this could happen was if the engines were overspeeded and the crew was disciplined because of this.

[Edited 2013-01-20 08:53:37]


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2865 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 37):
Did the 880 use turbo-compressors for pressurization like the 707 and DC-8? I see two big air scoops under wing on the fuselage.

The 880, (and 990) had two Turbo Compressors in the fuselage near the wing root area, and yes, those scoops fed the T/Cs. The T/Cs are powered by 17th stage bleed air. (17th stage??? that's a LONG engine).

They also had an "alternate" air source if the T/Cs failed. The T/C could be bypassed and the 17th stage air could be fed directly into the air plenum after going through the head exchanger or freon as required.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1074 posts, RR: 7
Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2799 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 39):
The 880, (and 990) had two Turbo Compressors in the fuselage near the wing root area, and yes, those scoops fed the T/Cs. The T/Cs are powered by 17th stage bleed air. (17th stage??? that's a LONG engine).

They also had an "alternate" air source if the T/Cs failed. The T/C could be bypassed and the 17th stage air could be fed directly into the air plenum after going through the head exchanger or freon as required.

Thanks longhauler - I'm ready for my 880/990 type rating oral now  

Do you have a FOM for the 880 or is there a website with systems info?


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2759 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 40):
Do you have a FOM for the 880 or is there a website with systems info?

I have an FOM for the 880, (TWA), and an "Introduction to the Convair 990A" manual (AA). The 990A manual I picked up at a flea market around here for $3, talked him down from $10 ... I almost feel guilty!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineYukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2631 times:
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Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 37):
I've always been curious about 880 technical details. I do know that it used both main gear and spoilers for emergency descents, which must have been spectacular!

Indeed Sir.

The Convair FOM notes the following regarding Emergency Descent Procedures:

1. Power Levers to IDLE position.
2. Initiate moderate bank turn, 30 to 40 degrees.
3. Place the main landing gear speedbrake handle in the DOWN position at 0.884 Mmi or 373 IAS, maximum.
4. Place spoiler speedbrake handle in full aft position for maximum speedbrake action.
....(Use first if airspeed is above 375 knots IAS).

The section continues with "Additional Drag Items" and indicates the nose gear could also be thrown-out into the breeze below Mmi 0.825 or 318 knots IAS maximum. Further caution states "Start decreasing the rate of descent at least 2000 feet before reaching the desired flight altitude if a high rate of descent is used."


Good stuff!

~Yukon~



Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4913 posts, RR: 43
Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2616 times:

Quoting Yukon880 (Reply 42):

That is interesting that the main gear could be extended without the nose gear. The only other aircraft that I knew could do this was the DC-7, (or was it the DC-6?).



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2610 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 43):
Quoting Yukon880 (Reply 42):

That is interesting that the main gear could be extended without the nose gear. The only other aircraft that I knew could do this was the DC-7, (or was it the DC-6?).

DC-7. The main gear served as speedbrakes. Go to about 5:20 in this 3rd part of an AA promotional film covering a nonstop DC-7 flight IDL-LAX soon after AA became the first carrier to operate nonstop coast-to-coast service in both directions with their new DC-7s in November 1953.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_HKnokmpqc

Parts 1 and 2 here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4d-OFDs1hY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8dzLHjiUVI


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1074 posts, RR: 7
Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

The Grumman Gulfstream 1 also has a main gear only speedbrake.

[Edited 2013-01-20 16:18:51]

User currently offlineYukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 46, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2468 times:
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You know, when you think about zippin' along in a pressurized aluminum tube at virtually 90% Mach, and having the ability (if need be) to throw out the mains and slow down to get down...

Mechanically speaking, that's pretty far out!

I wonder if 880 crew were particularly fond of going out for some Emergency Descent practice?
You know, way back when...

Before simulators!



Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2991 posts, RR: 7
Reply 47, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2310 times:

Quoting Yukon880 (Reply 42):
Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 37):
I've always been curious about 880 technical details. I do know that it used both main gear and spoilers for emergency descents, which must have been spectacular!

Indeed Sir.

The Convair FOM notes the following regarding Emergency Descent Procedures:

1. Power Levers to IDLE position.
2. Initiate moderate bank turn, 30 to 40 degrees.
3. Place the main landing gear speedbrake handle in the DOWN position at 0.884 Mmi or 373 IAS, maximum.
4. Place spoiler speedbrake handle in full aft position for maximum speedbrake action.
....(Use first if airspeed is above 375 knots IAS).

I think the 707 procedure was to lower the landing gear too. You can even see it in the Airport '70 movie when Captain Harris reaches up to the gear lever. The moderate bank turn is no longer done AFAIK, but was previous done to keep people on the floor when pushing over. It would create some centrifugal force to keep people from possibly flying up and hitting the ceiling when pushing over rapidly. That is actually mentioned in the Airport book.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7511 posts, RR: 24
Reply 48, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2259 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 31):
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 30):
Why did Northeast retire/get rid of their 880's?

I imagine it was because they had enough 727-95s and -295s on hand to adequately replace the 880s. By that time they were getting a little long in the tooth and the 727s were more economical.

Years before to the 1972 merger w/DL, NE had placed an order for the L-1011. These planes were likely viewed as a more appropriate & long-term successor to the 880. The first three of NE new L-1011s were originally planned to enter service by 1972.

However, due to financial problems, plans to originally merge w/NW in 1971 (which NW turned down due to CAB's denying them NE's MIA-LAX route) and the eventual merger w/DL in 1972; NE's L-1011 order was cancelled well before the first aircraft was ever delivered.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlinesuperjeff From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2141 times:
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Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 11):
was thinking AS. I didn't know about Swissair having 880s. Yeah, how many daily flights from SEA-ANC? And SEA was their only lower-48 destination. I'm sure AS in LIH, PVR, SNA and FLL was pretty unthinkable back then. The thought of AS flying 707s (and having a 747 on order at one point) might be unthinkable to us now though.

Actually, there is an ex Swissair 880 on display at the Swiss Transport Museum in Luzern; it is fully restored (static - non flying) and worth the trip to Luzern if you find yourself in Zurich for whatever reason.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 50, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

There used to be a place near underground Atlanta that had as part of their display and gift shop, the cockpit of an 880......don't know if it's still there or not.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8791 posts, RR: 24
Reply 51, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2129 times:

Quoting superjeff (Reply 49):
Actually, there is an ex Swissair 880 on display at the Swiss Transport Museum in Luzern;

It's a 990, not a 880.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 52, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2031 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 51):
Quoting superjeff (Reply 49):
Actually, there is an ex Swissair 880 on display at the Swiss Transport Museum in Luzern;

It's a 990, not a 880.

Due to the 990's performance problems and delays in delivery while undergoing modifications ("speed pods" and changes to engine pylons etc.), Convair provided two 880s to Swissair in 1961. They were operated for less than a year and were returned to Convair in 1962 after 990 deliveries began. One of the 880s later went to CX and the other to JAL. The JAL aircraft crashed on takeoff from HND on a training flight in 1966.


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