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Frontier - TTN Smart Move  
User currently offlineryanrap1 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 200 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 19908 times:

I know many people are skeptical about Frontiers decision on TTN but I was looking at some of the routes and loads from there website and a lot of the lfights look almost completely full. I know a full plane does not equal profit however it appears people are interested! I really hope this works for Frontier!

257 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9518 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 19891 times:

Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.

http://www.njfishandwildlife.com/pdf/wildcolor.pdf



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 19818 times:

I think that if F9 and TTN do some basic economics, and give a good guestimate as to how many pax in the area will be willing to use F9 and TTN (rather than drive to PHI or EWR) and to what destinations these pax are willing to pay X amount of $ to get there, then this definitely has a good chance to succeed. I would imagine that there is a lot of solid data out there available for both F9 and TTN to mine, and if an equilibrium is achieved so that the pax, airport and airline are happy with the results, possibilities are certainly there.

Basic economics here....... this is where it all starts.

And all the best to TTN, F9, an the folks in the area.......


 


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 19459 times:

Quoting ryanrap1 (Thread starter):
I was looking at some of the routes and loads from there website and a lot of the lfights look almost completely full

A true test will be after the TTN introductory fares expire. It appears F9 may have found a niche at TTN/Princeton roughly halfway between Philly and NYC. I'm not yet convinced about the 6X weekly ATL service; but maybe. I think to much capacity to soon.

F9 also needs to put into place a means to to grab some of the fliers in a 40-60 mile radius around the TTN airport. Cheap fares in a ULCC model or undercutting other carriers at PHL and EWR is not the sole answer.

In the late 90's early 20XX F9 used motor coach service to move passengers from DEN to the ski slopes and if memory serves me to a park and ride or sporting venue. In the TTN corridor I think the high frequency mega bus might just fit neatly if they can negotiate a deviation or add a second stop at the airport. Because mega bus does not yet offer service from Philly to Princeton it allows them to test the market for potential future service.

F9 needs to find an economical marketing platform such as using the Interstate state-line visitor welcome stations with a state specific brochure showing all of the service offered in that state. Thousands of motorist use these resources daily. Illuminated signage marketing the F9 brand hanging on a wall at the welcome centers would also be economical advertising. It would stick in my memory.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.

Although not specifically native to New Jersey. I was thinking about the Chesapeake Bay blue crab. With all of the Florida flying a Manatee can't be to far away.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineNKOPS From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2704 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 19347 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.

Greenheads and mosquitoes??



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 19345 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 3):
I'm not yet convinced about the 6X weekly ATL service; but maybe. I think to much capacity to soon.

I think Frontier probably agrees with you - TTN-ATL is 4 x weekly.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 19315 times:

I've always stated for years that an airport like TTN needs a mainstream LFC to come in.

Previous carriers were either small Johnny Come Latelys that don't survive for too long or commuter/regional affiliates to legacy carriers w/sky-high fares.

That said, F9 coming to TTN makes perfect sense.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 19277 times:
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Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 6):
That said, F9 coming to TTN makes perfect sense.

One puzzle I have is with the Trenton Takes Off Sweepstakes:

http://planetprinceton.com/2013/01/1...ces-trenton-takes-off-sweepstakes/

"Frontier Airlines today announced a sweepstakes for people who live in the Princeton and Trenton area and travel through Trenton-Mercer Airport. The sweepstakes, which runs through May 31, will award weekly and monthly prizes, as well as a grand prize in May. Participants can enter the sweepstakes by registering at the Frontier Airlines website. No purchase is necessary to enter.

One grand prize winner will be selected on June 1 to receive a dozen round-trip flights out of Trenton-Mercer Airport for a year. Sweepstakes participants must be 18 years or older. Resident of Delaware, New Jersey and Pennsylvania are eligible to enter."


I had not thought of Delaware as being in the TTN catchment area - I thought it would be much closer to PHL - but may it's just my sense of geography?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 19252 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.

There's a joke about Snooki & JWoww's rear ends in there somewhere...   


User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1638 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 19218 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 8):
There's a joke about Snooki & JWoww's rear ends in there somewhere.

They'd need to pick up an A380 to get them both on the tail.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 19115 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
I had not thought of Delaware as being in the TTN catchment area - I thought it would be much closer to PHL - but may it's just my sense of geography?

While PHL is closer to Delaware (it's only 11-12 miles from the State Line via I-95); if the the fare at PHL's high enough to cancel out any extra gas spent to head further north in West Trenton (where TTN is actually located), then it is indeed an option for somebody living in northern Delaware.

Not all of F9's nonstop routes out of TTN have LFC competition out of PHL.

[Edited 2013-01-18 16:34:05]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 19040 times:
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Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
Not all of F9's nonstop routes out of TTN have LFC competition out of PHL.

Starting with CMH - I was surprised to see that. It made sense of some of Frontier's choices.

Thanks.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18944 times:

Borrowed from the Frontier's New TTN Cities thread.

TTN-MDW starts April 8, 2013 and is 6X weekly ex Saturday
TTN-ATL starts April 8, 2013 and is 4X Weekly (Mon,Wed, Fri, Sat)
TTN-DTW starts Apirl 9, 2013 and is 4X Weekly (Sun, Tue, Thur, Fri)
TTN-CMH Starts April 8, 2013 and is 3X Weekly (Sun, Mon, Thur)
TTN-RDU Starts April 8, 2013 and is 6X Weekly ex Saturday

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
TTN-ATL is 4 x weekly.

Thanks for keeping me in   

Have we figured out any commonality which ties or would justify 6x weekly TTN-RDU service. Obviously F9 sees something. That region of N.C. is referred to as the triangle region encompassing Raleigh, Durham and Chapel Hill; all college towns. I suppose TTN will soon have access to good North Carolina BBQ.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18875 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 12):
Have we figured out any commonality which ties or would justify 6x weekly TTN-RDU service.

See above.

When Southwest ends RDU-PHL in March (2 x daily), there will be no LCC service RDU-PHL/EWR. The nearest would be JetBlue's RDU-JFK.

I suppose some will say that Southwest ending the route isn't a good sign, but I think that's more about Southwest at PHL - it's cut a bunch of stuff there, including all of New England.

http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/massmar...and-to-philadelphia/#axzz2INoxI6DV

"Southwest Airlines drops all flights out of New England to Philadelphia"

New England. Hmmmmm.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18864 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 3):

Although not specifically native to New Jersey. I was thinking about the Chesapeake Bay blue crab. With all of the Florida flying a Manatee can't be to far away.

How about a horseshoe crab? Not terribly photogenic, but funny.


Or maybe a shad.


 
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 3):
In the late 90's early 20XX F9 used motor coach service to move passengers from DEN to the ski slopes and if memory serves me to a park and ride or sporting venue. In the TTN corridor I think the high frequency mega bus might just fit neatly if they can negotiate a deviation or add a second stop at the airport. Because mega bus does not yet offer service from Philly to Princeton it allows them to test the market for potential future service.

America West did this to a couple locations in the Phoenix area, such as Scottsdale. I think Frontier 1.0 did it to Boulder once upon a time.

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
I had not thought of Delaware as being in the TTN catchment area - I thought it would be much closer to PHL - but may it's just my sense of geography?

Fairly direct up I-295, no tolls, and faster than the parallel NJ Turnpike from my experience.

-Rampart


User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18826 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
Fairly direct up I-295, no tolls, and faster than the parallel NJ Turnpike from my experience.

-Rampart

There is the Delaware Mem. Bridge toll on the return using I-295. No toll on I-95 though between No. Delaware and TTN.


User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18795 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 15):
There is the Delaware Mem. Bridge toll on the return using I-295. No toll on I-95 though between No. Delaware and TTN.

I forgot the bridge, thanks! Everyone has to pay to leave NJ, but it's free to get into NJ. To bastardize The Eagles, you can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.   As for I-95, I think of going through Philly and NE Philly with more traffic.


User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 18698 times:

Along with free parking, most of TTN's suburban catchment can reach TTN without tolls:

NJ: Mercer, Middlesex, Somerset, Hunterdon, Burlington, Camden, Gloucester, Monmouth, Ocean
PA: Philadelphia, Delaware Co.
DE: New Castle

Montgomery and Bucks Co. PA might need to take PA Turnpike but the drive is tolerable and typically less traffic than a drive to PHL. Some might fly into TTN to reach NYC or AC which has tolls to deal with though.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 18686 times:

I think Florida will do ok. But not the others.

User currently offlinePHLwok From United States of America, joined May 2007, 527 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18628 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
While PHL is closer to Delaware (it's only 11-12 miles from the State Line via I-95); if the the fare at PHL's high enough to cancel out any extra gas spent to head further north in West Trenton (where TTN is actually located), then it is indeed an option for somebody living in northern Delaware.

As someone who lives a few miles on the Delaware side of the DE/PA border, this certainly isn't a drive I'd look forward to during or within a few hours of rush hour. I dread the commutes to my clients up in Princeton. There are several choke points along 95, and 295 has problems of its own between route 42 and the Mt Laurel area. FWIW I haven't seen any F9 advertising down this way either. I can usually get to PHL in about 20 min, 25 min if I use PA 291 as an alternate due to traffic, whereas it's about 1 hr 20 min to TTN with no traffic, which would be unusual. There would have to be a huge price difference to not only make the extra gas worth it, but the additional time.

Quoting rampart (Reply 16):
I forgot the bridge, thanks! Everyone has to pay to leave NJ, but it's free to get into NJ. To bastardize The Eagles, you can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.

There are plenty of jokes in the reason about this  


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5126 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18573 times:

I just hope F9 plants itself and maintains service for a decent amount of time before pulling plugs. The market seems good. I just fear that F9 will go 3 months, and start pulling routes.

As for the bus idea... Boltbus was trying to work with Bellingham Airport to get a stop at the airport. The CEO of Bolt told me the airport top dogs would not return phone calls, and didnt seem interested. I suggested he contact Allegiant, but never heard anything else. Bolt has several buses running out of Seattle to Vancouver now, and noticed Bellingham has started. Maybe Boltbus should have a look at TTN?



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineIllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18563 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
think Florida will do ok. But not the others.
Quoting F9animal (Reply 20):
I just fear that F9 will go 3 months, and start pulling routes.

Remember when the COS routes were announced and everyone started jumping for joy thinking it was going to be the next big thing for F9? Well, its only been a year and already they've folded up the tents over there. Let's see how many of these TTN routes remain come next April.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18544 times:
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Quoting F9animal (Reply 20):
I just hope F9 plants itself and maintains service for a decent amount of time before pulling plugs.

It's really up to the good folk of New Jersey, F9, all the airline can do is offer.

It's the oldest rule in the book - use it or lose it.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4330 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17437 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 3):
F9 also needs to put into place a means to to grab some of the fliers in a 40-60 mile radius around the TTN airport. Cheap fares in a ULCC model or undercutting other carriers at PHL and EWR is not the sole answer.
Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
It's really up to the good folk of New Jersey,

Three other factors --

(1) PHL is on the southern border of Philadelphia, making folks from the northern suburbs (TTN's location) need to leave the day before to catch a flight because of Philadelphia's gridlock.

(2) The Pennsylvania Turnpike, the New Jersey Turnpike, I-95, I-195, and I-295 all feed traffic into the Trenton area making it easier to reach.

(3) Previous airlines at TTN were leisure-oriented and really didn't connect to anything.


User currently offlinealphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17295 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
Previous airlines at TTN were leisure-oriented and really didn't connect to anything.

F9 is leisure orientated and really doesn't connect to anything from TTN.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 17383 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
Quoting F9animal (Reply 20):
I just hope F9 plants itself and maintains service for a decent amount of time before pulling plugs.

It's really up to the good folk of New Jersey, F9, all the airline can do is offer.

It's the oldest rule in the book - use it or lose it.

I wish they had the financial and fleet latitude to be able to develop a route to profitability, and not drop in less than a year. In the example of COS, I wonder what the revenue was like for the different new routes. Were they profitable, but not too much? Were they nearly profitable and possibly trending up? I was just in COS, F9 prominently advertising within the terminal and billboards around town, all advertising the new routes which were JUST cancelled, front page news in the paper. TTN does not deserve a similar fate. If I could wish F9 something, it would be for solid staying power, which entails some commitment and consistency from the company. I would think a full year would be a minimum to try to figure that out.

-Rampart


User currently offlinerduddji From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1548 posts, RR: 3
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 17315 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 12):

Have we figured out any commonality which ties or would justify 6x weekly TTN-RDU service. Obviously F9 sees something.

There's quite a bit of pharmaceutical traffic between PHL-RDU. It's been served by at least 4 different airlines in the past 12 years. I'm not very familiar with the PHL region, but perhaps F9 is getting their feet wet to see if they can capture any of that traffic from TTN. I don't think pharmacor is a very price sensitive group, so I think F9 will have an uphill battle.

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
I suppose some will say that Southwest ending the route isn't a good sign, but I think that's more about Southwest at PHL - it's cut a bunch of stuff there, including all of New England.

For years WN avoided airports with chronic delays. When they announced their large op at PHL, I figured it wouldn't last, however, I was just beginning to think they'd proved me wrong when they began their pull down over a year ago.



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 17492 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
New England. Hmmmmm.

With WN PHL-PVD pull back I wonder if TTN-PVD might just be on radar. PVD is my favoritie airport when I travel to the greater Boston area; although I-95 needs a lot of work around Warwick to the Mass state line. Some of the potholes could break an axle. Rental cars also cost roughly half in PVD when compared to BOS on or off the airport.

I think TTN-PWM might be another niche market at least seasonally. The water front/wharf and foodie circuit is less than five miles from the airport

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 19):
There would have to be a huge price difference to not only make the extra gas worth it,

Those who decide to drive (park and fly) should be able to use TTN free parking. The least expensive local long term parking I can take advantage of off terminal is $8.00 per day which involves a shuttle bus transport to the terminal; $24 or more per day on terminal.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
(1) PHL is on the southern border of Philadelphia, making folks from the northern suburbs (TTN's location) need to leave the day before to catch a flight because of Philadelphia's gridlock.

And this may be the reason the mega-bus or any other commercial transporter has not yet established Philly-Princeton service. I wonder if Amtrak would be an option at the wrong time of day? (or is that all day) www.amtrak.com shows two stops in Philly and fares without any sort of discounts in a range from $28 to $39 from the 30th street stop and $28 from the north-side stop to Trenton. F9 might consider negotiating a contract or a special arrangement which would mirror validating any cost between the Trenton/Princeton transit stop and the airport for a ticketed passengers.

As time allows I may take a look at all of the F9 flight departure times out of TTN to every city the fly from TTN. I find it hard to believe a flyer would have to travel to Trenton the day prior. When I'm home I live 55 miles from the BNA airport. The earliest I've ever walked out of the house for the hour drive to the airport is 4:00 AM to drive the 55 miles to catch a 6:05 AM flight. Of course there is little road traffic and little to no TSA backlog as BNA wakes up.

I go back to a visit in BCN several years ago where after flying all night I had to take a cab to a train station and change trains twice ride the rail twice for 70 km and thereafter switch over to another car for an additional 25 km drive. I looked at it as a since of adventure. Ironically I made friends with a group of firefighters from Hoboken N.J. who visited the region annually.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 17407 times:

Cos- the airport I really thought had potential and flights were full. I dont want ttn to end same

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 17256 times:
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Quoting rampart (Reply 25):
I wish they had the financial and fleet latitude to be able to develop a route to profitability, and not drop in less than a year. In the example of COS, I wonder what the revenue was like for the different new routes. Were they profitable, but not too much?

I had fairly high hopes for COS, too, but began to worry about it quite early in the process - the bookings didn't look that exciting.

There are reasons why Westpac left COS - planes were full at low fares but Westpac couldn't get a premium over DEN so it did the obvious and moved to DEN.

The evidence would suggest COS is not a distinct market form DEN and with the E190's are going away, Frontier does not believe that COS can support the A319 on DEN-COS.

TTN is a distinct market and there are some very low intro fares. But also on two of the first three Friday MSY flights, for example, some of the highest one way fares in Frontier's entire network, on flights are are almost full.

Given an intensely constrained fleet, I know where I'd put the aircraft.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-19 10:20:07]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 17054 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
I think that's more about Southwest at PHL - it's cut a bunch of stuff there, including all of New England.

http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/massmar...and-to-philadelphia/#axzz2INoxI6DV

"Southwest Airlines drops all flights out of New England to Philadelphia"

New England. Hmmmmm.

The wickedlocal writer failed to mention the FL subsidiary will continue to fly PHL-BOS. It also looks like FL will continue to fly the PHL-RDU http://airtran.innosked.com/%28S%28m...qzlk45b4zxs1v3%29%29/Default.aspx. The exception being FL currently charges luggage fees.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 17054 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 30):
It also looks like FL will continue to fly the PHL-RDU

I just tried to book RDU-PHL in March and April on the Airtran website, and couldn't find a non-stop - only through ATL.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-19 12:23:30]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16937 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
I just tried to book RDU-PHL
Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
and couldn't find a non-stop - only through ATL.

Price would ultimately be the deciding factor if I would fly PHL-ATL-RDU with a TTN-RDU option. Driving would take 8-10 hours. I didn't look at specific flight times or schedules just lines on the route map.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16929 times:

Quoting alphascan (Reply 24):
F9 is leisure orientated

As mariner can attest to : ) ....Im having trouble swallowing this.

It's just a plane and it flies a schedule....there's nothing inherent about F9 that would make it abhorrent to business travelers. Business travelers want to fly non-stop, they want sufficient frequency and of course price elaticity is still there to a lesser extent.

If F9 is flying 3x on biz days at fares equal to EWR/PHL and you're flying non-stop to the markets that matter, then biz travelers who could avoid an hour ride to EWR will be throwing away their UA status and its +/- 30% upgrade chances down the toilet.

This isnt like F9s other experiments in big markets where they had to cherry-pick and thus were stifled from building a relationship with the business community; F9 has stumbled upon a truly differentiated product and can be alone in the market serving a host of markets; MDW/ATL/BOS/RDU/etc. etc. F9 also doesnt have a reputaton of any sort to contend with. If the stats show that 3x a day to MDW (or any other business market) can keep higher yielding business flying from the airport they'd prefer to fly to...and F9 makes the commitment to that kind of frequency and it works, then viola; F9 will be a business airline as far as this 2-4 million person catchment is concerned.



[Edited 2013-01-19 14:22:02]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16923 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 32):
Price would ultimately be the deciding factor if I would fly PHL-ATL-RDU with a TTN-RDU option. Driving would take 8-10 hours. I didn't look at specific flight times or schedules just lines on the route map.

It seems they are misleading. Airtran has - or had - those lines on the map for RDU-BOS, but when I checked the flights, it was the same story as RDU-PHL - no non-stops, or none that I was offered. Only RDU-ATL-BOS.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-19 14:28:15]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePHLwok From United States of America, joined May 2007, 527 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 16887 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
PHL is on the southern border of Philadelphia, making folks from the northern suburbs (TTN's location) need to leave the day before to catch a flight because of Philadelphia's gridlock.

Sorry, but that's simply not true. Folks drive to PHL from the northern suburbs all the time, and unless you have perhaps a 5:30 am flight and want to sleep in as long as possible and live a good ways away, there is absolutely no need to stay overnight near the airport. Maybe if you were driving from Scranton, but then you'd probably just fly out of AVP anyway and connect.

Quoting rduddji (Reply 26):
There's quite a bit of pharmaceutical traffic between PHL-RDU. It's been served by at least 4 different airlines in the past 12 years. I'm not very familiar with the PHL region, but perhaps F9 is getting their feet wet to see if they can capture any of that traffic from TTN. I don't think pharmacor is a very price sensitive group, so I think F9 will have an uphill battle.

PHL/EWR-RDU can be day tripped, which can be very useful for business traveler and drives some of the frequencies you see into there. F9 will need this frequency to be a plausible contender.

There is plenty of pharma in the Philly area as well as the Princeton corridor, and there is plenty of other business traffic between the two cities as well.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 27):
Those who decide to drive (park and fly) should be able to use TTN free parking. The least expensive local long term parking I can take advantage of off terminal is $8.00 per day which involves a shuttle bus transport to the terminal; $24 or more per day on terminal.

$8/day is about right for PHL off airport parking. Max is $20/day in the garages (more in short term, but you're not allowed to park overnight there). The garages often fill by midweek, so that price point clearly isn't driving off demand, much of it tied to business travel where it's reimbursable.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 16893 times:
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Quoting Sligo (Reply 33):
It's just a plane and it flies a schedule....there's nothing inherent about F9 that would make it abhorrent to business travelers.

Frontier isn't abhorrent to business travellers - many do fly Frontier (just as a fair number fly Allegiant) especially on routes such as DEN-DCA.

The difference is that the schedules are not opitmized for business travel - and that involves frequency.

The often maligned Republic CEO Bedford got it spot-on right, as with so many things, when he said that Frontier is a leisure airline and Midwest is (was) a business airline, and it was tough to marry the two.

It is a CW that business travellers demand frequency - but every time Frontier has tried that it hasn't worked, and since that umbilical cord was cut Frontier's financial position has improved dramatically.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 33):
If the stats show that 3x a day to MDW (or any other business market) can keep higher yielding business flying from the airport they'd prefer to fly to...and F9 makes the commitment to that kind of frequency and it works, then viola; F9 will be a business airline as far as this 2-4 million person catchment is concerned.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the actual stats, as in bums on seats, show that TTN-MDW can support more frequency, then it may happen.

But we have yet to find out if TTN-MDW will support 6 x weekly, and if so, can it support that through winter?

Daniel Shurz on TTN:

http://articles.philly.com/2013-01-1...ort-frontier-airlines-daniel-shurz

"It's very much targeted to leisure customers"

Hindsight tells us that Frontier "should have known" that the leisure TTN-MCO could support 4 x weekly, but when it was first announced (as 2 x weekly) many said it would never last.

It's all theory at the moment, no one actually knows, and it's part of the fun of TTN for me.  

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-19 15:05:55]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 16828 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 29):
The evidence would suggest COS is not a distinct market form DEN and with the E190's are going away, Frontier does not believe that COS can support the A319 on DEN-COS.

TTN is a distinct market and there are some very low intro fares. But also on two of the first three Friday MSY flights, for example, some of the highest one way fares in Frontier's entire network, on flights are are almost full.

I've thought of COS and DEN as the same market for some time. Otherwise, Denver is one of the largest metro areas in the nation served by only 1 airport. The bleed from COS to DEN is considerable, proof enough. As with any large metro area with a choice of airports, there is supposed to be some semblance of reverse bleed, and that used to be the case for places like BUR, ONT, ISP, MHT, and HPN, and COS in the WP days. Though, the trend over the last decade for alternate airports is a net loss. I would disagree that TTN is its own market, however. By definition, without continuous service, the Trenton-Princeton market has to go elsewhere to fly (unlike COS, or BUR, or MHT, which do have continuous and relatively good service). I think TTN can serve as a reasonable alternate market to Philadelphia metro and part of northern NJ metro, as well as itself. But I thought that about COS, too.

-Rampart


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 16791 times:
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Quoting rampart (Reply 37):
I would disagree that TTN is its own market, however

By "distinct market" - I meant for Frontier.

TTN is a distinct market, separate from DEN or its environs, which would include COS, or even FNL and maybe PUB. Frontier pax can easily drive from COS to DEN for a Frontier flight to anywhere in the system.

Frontier has no other base/focus city/hub in the north east, and the markets from TTN are independent of what is available at DEN.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 16670 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
I think Frontier 1.0 did it to Boulder once upon a time.

That may be what I was thinking about. In my mind it was more than five years ago but less than ten years. I want to say it was in the Jeff Potter era.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 16629 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 17):
Montgomery and Bucks Co. PA might need to take PA Turnpike but the drive is tolerable and typically less traffic than a drive to PHL.

They can take Route 1 or 95 without paying tolls.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 16535 times:
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Quoting STT757 (Reply 40):

They can take Route 1 or 95 without paying tolls.

Via Rt 1 they would have to make a small diverson and take the toll-free lower trenton Bridge (aka the Trenton Makes the World Takes Bridge) westbound or pay a reasonable $1 toll to use the Trenton-Morrisville Rt 1 Bridge.

As Seen on the pilot for the FOX TV show House



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 16472 times:
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New Article about the convience of Trenton Mercer Airport from the Philadelphia Inquirer

Trenton-Mercer: A hassle free airport
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20130120_Air_Travel_For_All.html

Interesting quote: I guess we can add TTN to the list of airports with PFCs

"The county will make other capital improvements, including outfitting a restaurant, with revenue from passenger-facility charges, jet-fuel sales, and landing and other fees, "based on Frontier's needs and the number of people who come through the door," Hughes said. (Mercer County Executive Brian M. Hughes)



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 43, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 16427 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 39):

That may be what I was thinking about. In my mind it was more than five years ago but less than ten years. I want to say it was in the Jeff Potter era.

Try 20 years. I was thinking of the pre-1995 version of Frontier, the original "local service" airline. I found a 1983 route map on DepartedFlights.com that shows the bus service from DEN to Boulder (Hilton Hotel) and Fort Collins (Ramada Inn). Apparently this only happened in 1983.

http://www.departedflights.com/FL060183.html

Side note: I find it amazing the number of small cities that sustained 737 service. Good times.

-Rampart


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 44, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 16342 times:

Drove out to Lancaster yesterday to go outlet shopping, there were Frontier signs promoting TTN all along the way as far out as Norristown. I think it's got a legit chance to work out in the long run, something like WN at ISP or NK at ACY.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 16317 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 43):

This may be what I was thinking about http://media.flyfrontier.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=4813 slightly more than ten years ago..



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 16284 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 45):
This may be what I was thinking about http://media.flyfrontier.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=4813 slightly more than ten years ago.

Ah, OK. Wasn't aware of that one. At that time, F9 still had management from the earlier Frontier (FL), I think?

It's hard looking back, what F9 was at it's apex.

-Rampart


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16234 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 42):

Nice article; thanks for posting. Several events are mentioned in Florida. I checked a couple of other markets including TTN-MSY. Using two random days in early February the ITA software http://matrix.itasoftware.comview/fl...e1a868-0cc3-4206-8c89-45dd6fedfbd5

F9 round trip non-stop flight TTN-MSY still populates for $108.00 and is actually doable as a same day trip. For those with a sense of adventure and a little expendable income. It could be the perfect lunch or gambling flight. F9 flight arrives in MSY at 10:05 A.M. and departs back to TTN at 5:05 P.M arriving in TTN shortly after 8:00 P.M.

For a $108.00 r/t I'd fly down just to bring a cooler of fresh Gulf seafood back. The fish and seafood mongers in the TTN area are foolish if they don't do the same. I know NYC has good seafood and has one of the worlds largest wholesale operations. But how could one not take advantage of the MSY opportunity at least until the intro fares expire. F9 might want to consider marketing the MSY flight for that very reason.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16193 times:
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Quoting rampart (Reply 25):
In the example of COS, I wonder what the revenue was like for the different new routes. Were they profitable, but not too much? Were they nearly profitable and possibly trending up?

This article in the Gazette gives quite a lot of information about what happened at COS - although obviously not actual profit/loss figures:

http://www.gazette.com/articles/fron...ier-149910-elsewhere-airlines.html

"Frontier Airlines short-lived “focus city” experiment in Colorado Springs failed because the Denver-based carrier underestimated how willing local passengers are to drive to Denver for a wide selection of inexpensive flights, the experiment’s architect says.

Daniel Shurz talks about each of the routes and what happened. It isn't entirely a lost cause - PHX stays at 6 x weekly, and LAX retains service (3x) at least through the summer.

But it keeps coming back to the essential point - the public appetite for low fares and I assume that partly helps to explain the immediate reaction to TTN:

"“The challenge is that the market knows there is high-frequency, low-fare service to virtually any market of significant size from Denver,” Shurz said. “We know there is healthy demand — Colorado Springs is large enough to generate that demand, but when you compare multiple daily flights in Denver to several flights a week from Colorado Springs, it turned out to be more of a challenge than we thought. At times when demand was high, we could get the fares where they were economically viable, but the trick is not doing it in July, it is doing it in enough months to generate a profit.”

It's a good read.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-20 10:04:02]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 16076 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):


http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/massmar...and-to-philadelphia/#axzz2INoxI6DV

"Southwest Airlines drops all flights out of New England to Philadelphia"

It's worth noting (and you likely already know this, but for those that don't) that the above-posted blog entry is from last year.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 27):
I wonder if Amtrak would be an option at the wrong time of day? (or is that all day) www.amtrak.com shows two stops in Philly and fares without any sort of discounts in a range from $28 to $39 from the 30th street stop and $28 from the north-side stop to Trenton

Some clarification is needed here. TTN is actually located in West Trenton and not the City of Trenton itself. So unless there's a bus service from either NJ Transit or the agency running TTN itself; Amtrak may not help someone in doing a PHL-TTN link. However, (as mentioned in the previous F9-TTN thread) SEPTA does have the West Trenton line which links Center City to the West Trenton stop, which is about 1 mile from TTN; close enough for TTN officials to operate a shuttle bus service from the train station to the airport if it wanted to.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 30):
The wickedlocal writer failed to mention the FL subsidiary will continue to fly PHL-BOS.

   FL hasn't flown PHL-BOS since early Nov. 2007 and WN itself dropped all of its PHL-New England routes just over a year ago. Addiitonally, B6 isn't starting PHL-BOS until this May 23; so US, for now, has no competition on this route. While one could do a PHL-EWR-BOS itinerary via UA, there may not be a major difference in airfare and the overall travel time (including connection layover) would likely be not that much shorter than driving.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 41):
Via Rt 1 they would have to make a small diverson and take the toll-free lower trenton Bridge (aka the Trenton Makes the World Takes Bridge) westbound or pay a reasonable $1 toll to use the Trenton-Morrisville Rt 1 Bridge.

Not that much of a big deal. Since TTN is adjacent to I-95 vs. US 1 (the latter goes into the City of Trenton itself), somebody using US 1 from either Northeast Philly or Lower Bucks County can simply connect to I-95 near Langhorne (I-95's Exit 46).

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 35):
Sorry, but that's simply not true. Folks drive to PHL from the northern suburbs all the time, and unless you have perhaps a 5:30 am flight and want to sleep in as long as possible and live a good ways away, there is absolutely no need to stay overnight near the airport.

   While I-95 from Center City to Northeast Philly does indeed have its typical rush-hour jams (southbound AM/northbound PM); off-peak travel is usually not a prblem unless there's an accident or construction-related lane closure... both of which can cause a jam on any highway at anytime.

BTW, TTN is only a 43-mile drive from PHL via I-95; less than a one-hour drive (non-rush-hour).

[Edited 2013-01-20 13:30:53]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 15998 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 49):
FL hasn't flown PHL-BOS since early Nov. 2007

My apology for the misinformation I was looking at FL route map yesterday and saw the connection. I did not look at specific flights. Another travel website I favor also shows the flight as plausible but not economical on FL with a PHL-ATL-BOS routing. Not that anybody in their right mind would fly it at over 2K.

I also learned US apparently no longer appears to fly the route either. In the mid eighties I use to fly BOS-PHL-BNA without a change of aircraft offered by US and long before CLT came to fruition.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 51, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 15978 times:
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Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 49):
It's worth noting (and you likely already know this, but for those that don't) that the above-posted blog entry is from last year.

Yes.

But it's interesting because it says something about Southwest at PHL - which appeals to my sense of irony and of metaphor.

The present Frontier CEO, the man responsible for the massive and complex restructure, is Dave Siegel. When he was at US Airways and Southwest announced PHL, Siegel made the notorious comment - "they're coming to kill us."

Southwest hasn't killed US at PHL, but PHL has hardly been a scorched earth triumph for Southwest. And that statement, it itself, didn't kill Siegel's career at US - but it is the thing he is most remembered for and it surely didn't help. He was kicked out, not long after.

So here he is, a decade later, CEO of another airline and coming back to the PHL area. If it all works - and the auguries are presently quite good - I shall think of TTN as Siegel's Revenge.

 

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-20 15:08:12]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 15890 times:

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 35):
PHL/EWR-RDU can be day tripped, which can be very useful for business traveler and drives some of the frequencies you see into there. F9 will need this frequency to be a plausible contender.

I don't think F9 is interested in pleasing the day trip business traveler. At this moment, it's trying for leisure and VFR and some business travelers is gravy. Spending a hotel night isn't a big deal esp. since many visit for more than one day and can work with internet at a hotel. If F9 wanted to get into into a day trip scheduled route, TTN-PVD or TTN-BOS would make more sense, since Boston as a city can be enjoyed in a day and it's a bigger market.


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15761 times:
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So after the introductory fares are gone what does everyone think the lowest fare will be:

Here's some of my guesses

Intro Fare Normal starting fare
MCO, TPA 69 89-99
FLL 69 89-99
RSW 79 99-109
CMH 29 69
ATL 49 89 (No Low-fare competition)
MDW 49 89 (No true low fare competition WN has $130+ fares)
DTW 29 79 (No Low-fare Competition)
RDU 29 79 (No Low-fare Competition)

MSY 79 109
When they discontinue the intro fares is another question..

[Edited 2013-01-20 20:02:34]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1079 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15707 times:

I think this experiment is going to go the same way the COS experiment did.


My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15717 times:
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Quoting usflyguy (Reply 54):
I think this experiment is going to go the same way the COS experiment did.


Within a 50 mile radius of Colorado Springs there are a million people.
Within in a 50 mile radius of Trenton there are atleast 2 million to 2.5 million people.


I think COS was a little different

[Edited 2013-01-20 21:18:10]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 56, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15522 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 51):
it's interesting because it says something about Southwest at PHL - which appeals to my sense of irony and of metaphor.

The present Frontier CEO, the man responsible for the massive and complex restructure, is Dave Siegel. When he was at US Airways and Southwest announced PHL, Siegel made the notorious comment - "they're coming to kill us."

Southwest hasn't killed US at PHL, but PHL has hardly been a scorched earth triumph for Southwest. And that statement, it itself, didn't kill Siegel's career at US - but it is the thing he is most remembered for and it surely didn't help. He was kicked out, not long after.

So here he is, a decade later, CEO of another airline and coming back to the PHL area. If it all works - and the auguries are presently quite good - I shall think of TTN as Siegel's Revenge.

In retrospect, all WN's entry into PHL did accomplish was halt FL's expansion that was taking place at the time. One needs to remember that had it not been for Doug Parker & HP coming in, US would've likely filed Chapter 7 within a year. WN, at the time, was not going to let US' possible demise be a boon for FL and/or an opportunity for B6 to come in.

Yes, F9 came to PHL around the same time as WN (2004); but WN had no presence at DEN, so the only competition between F9 & WN out of PHL was strictly on connection itineraries. I know F9 for a short period flew PHL-LAX early on, but I don't know whether WN flew that route at the same time as F9 if at all.

Most of us in the PHL area realized that once WN started PHL-DEN; it was only a matter of when not if F9 would drop PHL-DEN if not leave PHL all together. Had U5 not gone belly up, and given F9 an opportunity to fly their Apple Vacations flights, F9 would indeed be completely gone from PHL.

F9's coming to TTN is kind of like what WN used to do in the old days; compete against other major airport carriers but out of a different airport that's within reasonable proximity to said-major airport.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 15501 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 55):
Within a 50 mile radius of Colorado Springs there are a million people.
Within in a 50 mile radius of Trenton there are atleast 2 million to 2.5 million people.


I think COS was a little different

+1. Moreover, I'd guess that a county-by-county analysis in NJ and PA in which EWR, PHL, ABE and ACY are included would result in around 4,000,000 people who would view TTN as their first choice airport if destinations, fares and frequencies were equal. TTN would be the decisive #3 first-choice catchment in terms of population. When you start to overlay household income to cme up with total buying power (population*income), I'd guess that it would also rank decisively higher than ABE or ACY (or COS for that matter).


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 15463 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 55):
Within in a 50 mile radius of Trenton there are at least 2 million to 2.5 million people.

And two of those are sitting Supreme Court Justices; either born or raised in Trenton.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 53):
Here's some of my guesses

Intro Fare Normal starting fare
MCO, TPA 69 89-99
FLL 69 89-99
RSW 79 99-109
CMH 29 69
ATL 49 89 (No Low-fare competition)
MDW 49 89 (No true low fare competition WN has $130+ fares)
DTW 29 79 (No Low-fare Competition)
RDU 29 79 (No Low-fare Competition)
MSY 79 109


DTW being the exception in today present economy; in a ULCC leisure model I believe each of the markets would tolerate $99 fares. Additionally I would break the 7-14-21 day advance purchase requirement mold. AS use to offer a 3 day advance purchase in select Alaska markets to SEA which was flight specific. This might work using a day vs flight in that most if not all of the TTN service is LTD (less than daily)



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15352 times:

Quoting Sligo (Reply 57):
included would result in around 4,000,000 people who would view TTN as their first choice airport if destinations,

It's going to be fun to watch the RITA numbers for TTN when they start publishing in the next 3-6 months.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 42):
Trenton-Mercer: A hassle free airport
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20130120_Air_Travel_For_All.html

Interesting quote: I guess we can add TTN to the list of airports with PFCs
TTN going to have to have or build more than 1,200 parking spots.

[Edited 2013-01-21 10:39:21]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15326 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 59):
TTN going to have to have or build more than 1,200 sparking spots

I wasn't complaining, I love to see the expansion. I will have to confirm when I fly to MCO next monday but I think TTN needs more enhancements. Hopefully once they pay for the parking lots they can start making enhancements inside the terminal. Sure they'll have to be small but I think they will be needed. They certainly need to offer some sort of food option now that the resturant is gone.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 61, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15336 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 60):
They certainly need to offer some sort of food option now that the resturant is gone.

I see Dunkin Donuts and Subway.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 62, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15290 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 60):
I wasn't complaining, I love to see the expansion

My attempt at humor I suppose. because PFC are both origin and destination based I suspect a lot of the region is already paying them (maybe not in TTN) but on the destination end or at another origin airport who collects them; and may not even know it. If they wanted to charge me $2.50 and I knew the $$ would stay at my community airport for improvements I'd pay it.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 60):
They certainly need to offer some sort of food option now that the restaurant is gone.

I believe the article you posted in 42 said the restaurant is in fact coming back and was a work in progress. In the interim I suppose they could bring in the local food truck circuit. A second thought might be to fly up some of the good North Carolina smoked pork or BBQ. TTN at least for now has a direct transportation link in F9.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 63, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15307 times:
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Quoting STT757 (Reply 61):
I see Dunkin Donuts and Subway.

That'd be my guess, or something like that. From the Philly.com article:

http://articles.philly.com/2013-01-2...rontier-airlines-nonstop-flights/2

"The county will make other capital improvements, including outfitting a restaurant, with revenue from passenger-facility charges, jet-fuel sales, and landing and other fees, "based on Frontier's needs and the number of people who come through the door," Hughes said."

Although whether this new "restaurant" will be open by the time Jerseyguy flies is an open question.  

A couple of functioning air-bridges would be good, too, but most of all what TTN seems to need is - space. So I assume the plans for the new terminal have been taken out of the bottom drawer and dusted off:

http://www.state.nj.us/counties/mercer/departments/airport/faqs.html

"TTN is proposing to replace our functionally obsolete two gate terminal with a new, modern two gate facility. Our existing terminal, designed in the 1970s, is too small to allow for the adequate care and control of passengers. The retrieval and handling of luggage is equally troublesome. In addition, improvements must be performed to allow for the size and weight of new security screening equipment, mandated by the FAA."

A modern "two-gate" facility. Hmmm.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15269 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 63):
A modern "two-gate" facility. Hmmm.

Isn't modern and 2 gates an oxy-moron LOL. Hopefully this modern 2 gate facility will include 2 modern jetbridges capable of handling the average narrowbody such as Frontiers A319s. Currently they do have 1 jetbridge but appartarently it is not capable of handling the A319 as F9 is boarding via the other "gate" which is a doorway to the tarmac.

A little birdy told me that unfortunately any big enhancements probably wouldn't be coming in the near future the decision is probably a year off.

As for the resturant, I don't think it will be open by next monday. What they also need is bathrooms past security. I was in Princeton a few days ago and decieded to stop by and pre-security they have bathrooms but notices that there are none past security. However I don't think security is all that difficult to go thru so maybe its not a big deal.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 65, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15264 times:
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Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 64):
A little birdy told me that unfortunately any big enhancements probably wouldn't be coming in the near future the decision is probably a year off.

I think that is entirely probable - and sensible. As one of the Freeholders said, Frontier is off to great start but we need to see some returns.

Frontier is over the first hurdle - will anyone use TTN at all? It seems to be clearing he second hurdle - will anyone use TTN for anywhere other than MCO?

The third hurdle is the April expansion - the "not-Florida" expansion - and although the auguries are good they won't actually know until they get there. I assume that all (or most) will be okay during the high summer travel time, but that's still an assumption.

But then - what happens in the down days of September and October? Hopefully, that will be mostly house-keeping.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 66, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 15225 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 64):
Isn't modern and 2 gates an oxy-moron LOL.

Should I be offened Juneau (JNU) has four gates with loading bridges. Personally I like the ambiance and nostalgia of walking on the tarmac. Although the pax may have to wait a few extra minutes until the engines wind completely down.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 64):
Currently they do have 1 jet bridge but apparently it is not capable of handling the A319 as F9 is boarding via the other "gate" which is a doorway to the tarmac.

When WestPac folded at COS. The COS airport sold off its excess loading bridges. Supposedly there is an airport excess/surplus property listing which is available to airport managers and their staffs listing everything aviation including Ground Support Equipment (GSE) and available on the cheap. Also many city or state governments also run a excess property programs. If all else fails they could probably coordinate with the federal state agent for surplus property who is local government liaison to the feds including the military. As the military conflict draws down in SWA (Southwest Asia) this type of equipment should become available



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 15168 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 66):
Personally I like the ambiance and nostalgia of walking on the tarmac.

I do too, last time I did that was in the mid 90s (around 95??) at SRQ coming off my American Eagle Flight from MIA.
However that ambience wears thin when its raining, snowing, or windy.

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
I think that is entirely probable - and sensible. As one of the Freeholders said, Frontier is off to great start but we need to see some returns.

Screw the people of Mercer County, not my money LOL Besides it will be a small return on the money all NJ residents throw into the Trenton (and all other Abbot) school districts.

[Edited 2013-01-21 13:19:57]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 68, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 15123 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 64):
A little birdy told me that unfortunately any big enhancements probably wouldn't be coming in the near future the decision is probably a year off.

You can help but think this snippet is on TTN minds. "14 carriers have tried, and failed, to establish commercial jet service there (TTN)."

Because airlines come and go in the wink of an eye with little to no explanation the airport leadership is simply exercising a wait and see approach before a lot of $$$ is committed to the airport. Capital projects/improvements are generally on a 3-5 year or longer wait list. Bits and pieces may be fast tracked. I accepted the one year timeline to be very aggressive.

I'm sure the TTN leadership is familiar with F9 at MKE and to a certain extent MCI and now COS. I'd take the same approach. I hope F9 survives in TTN. It's a good location geographically. If the data shows the fares trending down at PHL and EWR in the long haul we can assume it worked. At the end of the day TTN is just another city and just another analyst WAG.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 15100 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 68):
I'm sure the TTN leadership is familiar with F9 at MKE and to a certain extent MCI and now COS. I'd take the same approach. I hope F9 survives in TTN. It's a good location geographically. If the data shows the fares trending down at PHL and EWR in the long haul we can assume it worked. At the end of the day TTN is just another city and just another analyst WAG.

I just hope they can make some minor enhancements in the meantime. I'll know what those might be on Monday night after my flight.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 70, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 15072 times:

The TTN-MSY flight on Friday Feb 01 which I believe is also the inaugural flight is currently selling for a premium in the high $300; closer to $400.00 and the return on Monday Feb 4 is $69 I suppose this is the Super Bowl factor

At 123 miles between BWI and TTN and free parking I can't help but think if some of Baltimore got smart and decided to drive and fly out of TTN. On Saturday I saw a $108.00 fare on the Friday Feb 01 flight between TTN-MSY. Today its no where to be found.

A travel agent may have grabbed them up and sold them for a premium. I surprised F9 did not put an extra flight on the route for Saturday Feb 02 or even Sunday morning Feb 03 as a revenue generator. Next year if the game is in a F9 city maybe.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 15043 times:
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Next years Super Bowl is in an F9 city NYC (LGA). I will assume if TTN is still around they will see their share of bowl pax


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 14959 times:
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I just spotted a billboard for F9 at TTN

Rt 1 South between Meadow Rd and Quakerbridge Rd in West Windsor.

on an electronic changing billboard 2 different messages (its on with other ads as well I believe 3 others)

Q: Where do you get off expecting a better Airport
A: Trenton Airport Exit 2 I-95

Q: Where do you get off expecting shorter lines?
A: Trenton Airport Exit 2 I-95

I would have gotten a pic but there were trees in the way from the shopping plaza that you can see it from



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 14820 times:
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Oh for anyone who is interested 25.25% of all flights out of EWR were delayed an average of 62 minutes from November 2011 to November 2012. One more reason to fly TTN on nonstop flights.


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 14767 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
Quoting Sligo (Reply 33):
If the stats show that 3x a day to MDW (or any other business market) can keep higher yielding business flying from the airport they'd prefer to fly to...and F9 makes the commitment to that kind of frequency and it works, then viola; F9 will be a business airline as far as this 2-4 million person catchment is concerned.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the actual stats, as in bums on seats, show that TTN-MDW can support more frequency, then it may happen.

But we have yet to find out if TTN-MDW will support 6 x weekly, and if so, can it support that through winter?

I'd guess there is 5,000-6,000 O&D enplanements per day EWR/PHL to/from MDW/ORD; close to 100% of those in the TTN catchment are a part of that EWR/PHL number right now.

So IMHO it is quite reasonable to conclude that 3x out of TTN is sustainable.

The problem I have here is that 6x per week to MDW will attract only the least time sensitive, small business travelers and get around 0% of corporates. The concern, obviously, is that F9 is not putting in the minimum level of frequency to give the service a chance at succeeding.

So Im hoping they see whatever sort of threshhold of demand that theyre looking for quickly to push the business markets up to 3x at least on M/R/F/Su.

[Edited 2013-01-22 04:36:20]

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 75, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 14736 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 71):
Next years Super Bowl is in an F9 city NYC (LGA). I will assume if TTN is still around they will see their share of bowl pax

TTN to Metlife Stadium is 62 miles, 1 hour 14 minutes in current traffic. When the Turnpike expansion is done this will probably be an hour flat.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 76, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 14677 times:

Quoting Sligo (Reply 74):
The concern, obviously, is that F9 is not putting in the minimum level of frequency to give the service a chance at succeeding.

Potentially setting it up for failure.

I wonder if 2X daily (once in the morning and once in the evening) or alternate the flights; M-W-F in the morning and T-T-S in the evening. Anything is fair game in a ULCC model.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 14645 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 76):
I wonder if 2X daily (once in the morning and once in the evening) or alternate the flights; M-W-F in the morning and T-T-S in the evening. Anything is fair game in a ULCC model.

2X might interfere with the other service they have issues with lack of planes. M-W-F AM T-T-S PM might work. The big problem is that they are doing too much too fast with the number of planes they have. If they are truly going for vacation pax then I don't know why they are doing CMH and RDU. They could easily do 2X MDW if they just dropped RDU which is 6X. 6X to RDU tells me they are looking at buisness travel not leisure pax, which might not be a bad idea but the times for even the 1X is a bit of an issue. Flight leaves TTN at 630am and returns from RDU at 830am. Buisness pax aren't going to want to spend an extra night in RDU and the flights are going to have to remain real cheap if leisure travelers are going to wake up at 4am to catch a flight from TTN.

[Edited 2013-01-22 08:05:48]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineEWRandMDW From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 14604 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 71):
Next years Super Bowl is in an F9 city NYC (LGA).

The thing is, unless the Giants play the Jets, at least one team will fly into EWR (F9 airport or not) as it is the closest major airport (not counting TEB), and in the same state as the stadium! Of course, NYC will conveniently forget New Jersey is the actual home of "their" two football teams!


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 79, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 14569 times:
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Quoting Sligo (Reply 74):
The problem I have here is that 6x per week to MDW will attract only the least time sensitive, small business travelers and get around 0% of corporates. The concern, obviously, is that F9 is not putting in the minimum level of frequency to give the service a chance at succeeding.

It is the model, Sligo.

The restructure is partly based on rigid fleet discipline and lower fleet frequency. DEN-ATL is 1 x daily as is DEN-DTW. DEN-DTW goes to 2 x daily in summer, but it used to be 3 x.

And we know that - with this model - Frontier is going to report a profit for FY 2012, the first FY profit since 2003.

Wall Street loves it. On December 31, Republic raised the Q4 estimates for Frontier. Since then the RJET stock price has risen from (about) $5.50 to (about) $8.40 on massive volume, to a more than two year high. On January 2 alone, the stock price climbed more than 18%.

It is - to me - infinitely better to go in low and build as traffic demands, not to go in with all guns blazing and not be able to fill the aircraft.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-22 09:39:34]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 14557 times:
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Ewrandmdw,
We were talking about how F9s TTN-MSY flight was full of Super Bowl pax and next year the game will be in NJ and how that would effect F9. I expect all 3 metro airports to be utilized by fans and maybe TTN if the team is in a city that is served.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineMexicana757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3047 posts, RR: 28
Reply 81, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 14519 times:

As some of you on here I too would like to see F9 succeed on MDW-TTN. This is the first time F9 adds a new route out of MDW since they have been flying into the airport since the 90s. At 6x weekly it's a good start. Anything more than that I think would be too much on such a route. When the route proves to be a success then we can say the route should go 2x daily.

If MDW-TTN is a success I would like to see F9 test the waters at MDW and mirror some of the current Florida flying being done by FL. As the FL brand starts to slowly disappear they can probably open routes like MDW-MCO, MDW-RSW or MDW-TPA.   


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 82, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 14484 times:

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 81):
This is the first time F9 adds a new route out of MDW since they have been flying into the airport since the 90s.

Another route that I think would be good from MDW for F9 would be to PHF. I do believe that since F9 entered PHF, they have been daily and year round, then daily and seasonal, then pull out, then non-daily and year round, and then non-daily and seasonal. Did I get them all? In the meantime, there seems to be inconsistency at PHF with F9.

Currently, there is no nonstop airline service from the Chicago airports to PHF, although they have service to both RIC and ORF. Wouldn't some F9 service tofrom Chicago (MDW) and PHF help both F9 with PHF, and at least keep a stronger presence of F9 at PHF if they considered a nonstop to MDW as a supplement to its DEN-PHF service?

And I think that TTN-PHF is maybe a bit short for a flight?

Just my thoughts here?




 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 83, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 14488 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 82):
I do believe that since F9 entered PHF, they have been daily and year round, then daily and seasonal, then pull out, then non-daily and year round, and then non-daily and seasonal.

Frontier has never pulled out of PHF.

Quoting point2point (Reply 82):
And I think that TTN-PHF is maybe a bit short for a flight?

Just a guess - and I could easily be wrong - but I think that TTN-PHF is more likely, at some point, than MDW-PHF. Or - I hope so.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 14452 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 82):
And I think that TTN-PHF is maybe a bit short for a flight?

It's the about the same distance by drive as TTN-PIT, but TTN-PIT would be connecting bigger markets. I can't imagine F9 linking TTN-PHF. I think many families would be comfortable driving through VA (up to 6 hours) even though there is the DC traffic and tolls. TTN-RDU and TTN-ATL should cover the Southeast, where some might fly TTN-RDU and drive to Charlotte.

However, given that F9 attempted MSY for leisure likely more than VFR, maybe it'd consider TTN-CHS as a seasonal offering targeting pure leisure. CHS has low fare service to BWI (via WN), JFK and BOS (via B6), but the PHL to EWR area lacks low fare service to CHS.

[Edited 2013-01-22 10:48:54]

User currently offlinejetsetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 14428 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 84):
However, given that F9 attempted MSY for leisure likely more than VFR, maybe it'd consider TTN-CHS as a seasonal offering targeting pure leisure

Would love to see that! NK recently announced PHL-MYR, so I cannot see F9 opening a station to MYR. I'm really curious to see what else they add from TTN that is "leisure orientated"


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 86, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 14382 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 84):
. I can't imagine F9 linking TTN-PHF.

The point about PHF - for summer leisure - is Virginia Beach.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 84):
I'm really curious to see what else they add from TTN that is "leisure orientated"

I guess PBI may be in the mix for next winter.

I'm hoping for TTN-NAS, if only to increase the conceptual links with Princeton - "Old Nassau".  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejetsetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14317 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 86):
I'm hoping for TTN-NAS

Hmm..that would work as FPO and NAS are US preclearance airport


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 88, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14324 times:
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Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 87):
Hmm..that would work as FPO and NAS are US preclearance airport

And not to forget that TTN already has a (very small) FIS presence, through Ronson Aviation, for international GA pax arriving at the airport.

http://www.ronsonaviation.com/airportinformation_customs.asp

"Clear US Customs at Trenton with a friendly agent that comes to you and specializes in private aircraft clearing and be on your way in 20 minutes or less"

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-22 13:11:02]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 89, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14275 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 82):
Another route that I think would be good from MDW for F9 would be to PHF.

Given Chicago's geographical location I'm not sure Chicago would generate enough traffic to PHF. I do see a possible feed between the Navy at Great Lakes and the Atlantic fleet. I do like your TTN-PHF idea or a MDW-TTN-PHF route.

In the near term I think one or more daily DCA-PHF if RJET could be persuaded to surrender the necessary inter-perimeter slots to F9. F9 has three DEN-DCA which is a decent amount of capacity. Add to that no other carrier flies DCA-PHF direct or non-stop ($$ cha-ching) at least the last time I looked. Its a good 3-4 hour road trip on the best day. If PeoplExpress ever gets established at PHF its almost a guarantee they're gonna jump on it.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 90, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 14140 times:
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TTN airport officials are asking the Freeholders to approve of the hiring on an engineer to help them re-organize the airport.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...ercer_county_freeholders_disc.html

"County officials are poised to hire an engineering firm to help them decide what kind of improvements to make at the Trenton-Mercer Airport terminal to accommodate the rapid expansion of Frontier Airlines."

There's nothing much new in it, just a bit more detail - there won't be a restaurant or food vendor by the time you fly Jeyseyguy.

"Watson said that with Frontier’s 138-seat aircraft expected to make approximately 36 flights per week, passenger crowding inside the airport terminal is likely to become a problem.

When the airport’s restaurant closed at the beginning of the year, county officials saw an opportunity to reconfigure the airport terminal to avoid the crowding.

Watson said that while the airport will likely need to offer food service to passengers, it may be possible that a portion of the old restaurant space can be used as a smaller “grab and go” food counter with some seating so that the remainder of the area can be used for passenger space"


This is all short-term - it doesn't address the long-term situation:

"Watson said the study of the airport would only address short-term capacity issues.

In 2006 the county received approval from the Federal Aviation Administration to double the size of the airport terminal, but no expansion was carried out."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 14083 times:
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I'm glad they realize that it's a problem. Hopefully they will atleast have started the project to reconfigure the terminal by April when MDW and the other 4 new cities come online.

I will likely have a trip report posted by Tuesday tentatively titled "Mercer to McCoy: F9 TTN-MCO"



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 14035 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 90):
In 2006 the county received approval from the Federal Aviation Administration to double the size of the airport terminal, but no expansion was carried out."

IIm fairly sure that this is the approval that the TTN-based start-up pushed through the FAA. I wonder if it is still valid.


User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 14002 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 86):
The point about PHF - for summer leisure - is Virginia Beach.

I think Virginia Beach is closer to ORF and one would still have to drive through the tunnels. I don't know but I think it's too driveable within 6 hours and Virginia Beach might be more familiar with the DC/MD region than the NJ/PA regions.

Quoting mariner (Reply 86):
I guess PBI may be in the mix for next winter.

I would hope it would wait until TTN-FLL matures but maybe by next winter. One of the other large markets within 1000 miles that is not easily driveable is JAX. PHL-JAX fares are quite high on US, but I suppose the one stops connections on WN and FL are more reasonable.

I'm not sure if F9 is very much into thru flights like WN, but with TTN-RDU it could solidify the route with thrus and offer TTN-RDU-JAX and TTN-RDU-MSY linking RDU to both JAX and MSY, and TTN via a one stop rather than flying a longer/thinner route from TTN. TTN-CLE-DEN and TTN-PIT-DEN could open more thrus to DEN and the west coast along with TTN-MDW-DEN.

Part of TTN-RDU's success will depend upon US having high fares on PHL-RDU. I looked at US's site and for the summer, the fares are competitive. I think US will eventually raise the fares but there is a lag between the time WN pulls out of the route and when the fares actually go up.

I've said before but TTN-CMH should be replaced with TTN-CLE. In addition to the latter being a bigger market, WN prices PHL-MDW-CMH quite competitively ($100 one-way) but fares to CLE are high on all carriers.


User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 14005 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 93):
Part of TTN-RDU's success will depend upon US having high fares on PHL-RDU.

One of the advantages of TTN is that F9's success will not require pulling traffic from EWR or PHL's catchment. Keeping the people who would prefer TTN at home is what they need to do to be successful.

The high-fares of their indirect competitors at PHL/EWR are fleeting; they can be made low-fare tomorrow if US or CO wishes. Organic demand for air travel, however, is not so fleeting.

So instead of cherry-picking currently high fare routes or avoiding low fare routes, F9 would be best served to fly where the people that sourround TTN demand to fly and offer reasonable fares and frequency; that's what's needed to keep these 2-4 million people at home and not traveling to EWR or PHL.

Id assume a debate is going on right now somewhere in the F9 world about whether they should eventually budget for a *fare premium* out of TTN vs PHL or EWR...instead of discounting ; of course that could only occur after TTN becomes well known to its locals, but a solid case can be made for a premium when that time comes.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 95, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13961 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 90):
there won't be a restaurant or food vendor by the time you fly Jeyseyguy.

In the interim it sounds like this might be opportunity if local code or ordinance allows it to invite the portable food truck(s) to the airport for an outbound snack for departing pax or a first taste of Jersey for arriving pax.

Or another outside the box idea would be to bring some N.C. style pulled pork or BBQ from GSO now and the RDU triangle region later into April. http://www.travelchannel.com/tv-show...-food/travel-guides/north-carolina



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13955 times:

F9 is also starting to show up as the second carrier in a multi-carrier configuration reservations request in TTN. I suppose because they are the sole carrier offering service into TTN at the moment. I checked SEA-MDW-TTN Its shows and AS code share on he SEA-MDW segment and F9 on the MDW-TTN segment in April It also shows SEA-TTN via DEN and MDW all the way through on F9


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 13921 times:
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Appears that Fromtier @ TTN may be starting to have a college following.

From "The Signal" the paper of The College of New Jersey (TCNJ) also located in Ewing.
http://www.tcnjsignal.net/2013/01/22...cal-hub-for-aerial-transportation/



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 98, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 13812 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 93):
I think Virginia Beach is closer to ORF and one would still have to drive through the tunnels.

Virginia Beach is slightly closer to ORF but Frontier doesn't fly to ORF - it flies to PHF and a deal of Frontier's summer traffic is bound for Virginia Beach..

I'd rather see TTN-MYR, but I assume Frontier at TTN is one (not the only) reason Spirit has just announced PHL-MYR - a shot across Frontier's bows.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 97):
Appears that Fromtier @ TTN may be starting to have a college following.

I imagine Rutgers is in there somewhere as well.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 13797 times:

Rutgers and Princeton have students who fly to go there but no mass transit will probably make them use EWR since the train and shuttle companies already have service to those campuses. TCNJ clearly no one flys to go there total suitcase school for locals. Any colleges in the area might have people interested for spring break travel though and TCNJ is really close but spring break is a very short amount of time.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 100, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 13806 times:
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Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 99):
Rutgers and Princeton have students who fly to go there but no mass transit will probably make them use EWR since the train and shuttle companies already have service to those campuses.

There is a reason (several) Frontier is calling it "Princeton/Trenton" Airport. And since there are limo/shuttle bus/taxi companies based in Trenton (and New Brunswick), I can't imagine transport to the airport is much of a problem.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 13769 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 99):
Rutgers and Princeton have students who fly to go there but no mass transit will probably make them use EWR since the train and shuttle companies already have service to those campuses

Around the greater Nashville college scene which includes Vanderbilt, Belmont, Middle Tennessee State University (MTSU) TSU Mega-bus has a huge following amongst the college crowd for their low-low fares. MTSU for one has a significant aviation program.

I'm not sure about the Ivy league schools; in the mid-south college students don't have a lot of money unless mom and dad have deep pockets. Mega-bus has expanded their routes five fold in Nashville in the last year alone to cater to the college students. You can actually book a through fare from Nashville to NYC.

Because mega-bus serves Princeton/NYC no less than nine time daily in both directions. If F9 is in fact chasing the college crowd and TTN and RDU makes the theory plausible F9 might want to place some advertising signage on the mega-bus or negotiate a second stop Princeton/Trenton stop at TTN.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 102, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13680 times:
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Trenton Marriott wants a shuttle bus for pax arriving/departing TTN:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...renton_marriott_board_may_pur.html

"Trenton Marriott board may purchase shuttle bus to take passengers to and from Trenton-Mercer Airport"

Not set in stone yet.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejetsetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13660 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 91):
I will likely have a trip report posted by Tuesday tentatively titled "Mercer to McCoy: F9 TTN-MCO"

Looking forward to the report - I'll be flying TTN-MSY in March and TTN-MDW in June


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13525 times:
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As was mentioned earlier TTN is looking to hire an engineer to reconfigure the terminal. The interesting thing is that restaurants have contacted TTN to be in the terminal.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...ercer_county_freeholders_disc.html



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User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 105, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 13501 times:

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 103):
Looking forward to the report - I'll be flying TTN-MSY in March and TTN-MDW in June
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 91):
I will likely have a trip report posted by Tuesday tentatively titled "Mercer to McCoy: F9 TTN-MCO"

I'll probably have one posted, too. Taking the inaugural MSY-TTN on the 1st...followed by a cab to the train station, a three hour wait before catching Amtrak to Boston, and finally back home on AA. Should be an adventure.  


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 106, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13438 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 105):
Taking the inaugural MSY-TTN on the 1st.

Have fun - but don't expect a full flight.

First flight to MSY (2/1) is full - Superbowl fans - but no matter how well first flights to a vacation destination do, first flights from a vacation destination are usually booked low.

Second MSY-TTN, on Monday 2/4, is sold out and has been for a week or so - bringing all those Superbowl fans back from MSY.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 107, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days ago) and read 13342 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 104):
TTN is looking to hire an engineer to reconfigure the terminal

I'm sure there are a bunch of them out there. This company http://www.bizjournals.com/albany/ne...s-with-rw-armstrong-to-create.html was just hired on a five year contract for consulting and planning at CKV http://www.theleafchronicle.com/arti...dition-has-improved?nclick_check=1

" Members approved hiring the R.W. Armstrong engineering firm with a five-year contract for consulting and planning at the airport." It looks like R.W. Armstrong has ops in NY State



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 108, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 13168 times:

I don't believe this has been posted yet. http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...freeholders_hear.html#incart_river

"A representative from Frontier Airlines said the company was in support of minimal repairs at the facility. “It’s a very unique facility and it does not come without challenges,” said Jeff Campbell, who specializes in facilities for the airline. “We believe there is a need for modest modifications but that certainly doesn’t include any expansion” of the terminal.

The airline would prefer that the county not undergo expensive renovations to the terminal because the cost would be passed on to the airline and they wouldn’t be able to keep their prices competitive, Campbell said."

It sounds like F9 is pleased with TTN. If F9 entered into a long term lease I'm not sure how the airport authority could raise rates; five up to ten years is not uncommon in the retail sector. Although it may an infinity in the airline biz.

Reading between the lines I would favor repairs over renovation too. Any capital airport improvements which would include a expanded terminal and more gates potentially invites competition to TTN.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12991 times:
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Well as luck would have it, it appears that there will be some wintry weather for my flight on Monday. Currently its supposed to change to rain by 1pm (my flight at 4pm arrival from MCO at around 3:15). If not I guess we'll find out how well Trenton operates in the snow. Rain or snow, It would have been nicer to be boarding via a jetbridge but it is what it is.


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User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 17
Reply 110, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 12967 times:

I'm arriving on the inbound flight from MCO on Monday afternoon. Hopefully, we aren't sliding down the boarding ramp like a slip and slide.


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 111, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 12877 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 109):
Well as luck would have it, it appears that there will be some wintry weather for my flight on Monday.
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 109):
I guess we'll find out how well Trenton operates in the snow.

The snow melt or brine they use on the ramp and or walking bridge does tend to stain carpet and leave white blotches after it dries. Its not so bad if 1-2-3 walk on it; but 138 yikes. Lets hope F9 stocks extra aisle carpet in DEN. I suppose they could make the pax check their galoshes at the door.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 112, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12727 times:

Quoting ryanrap1 (Thread starter):
I know many people are skeptical about Frontiers decision on TTN but I was looking at some of the routes and loads from there website and a lot of the lfights look almost completely full.

I don't think the loads mean much with the $29 fares in place. It'll be a while before we know anything.


User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 113, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12697 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 111):
The snow melt or brine they use on the ramp and or walking bridge does tend to stain carpet and leave white blotches after it dries.

The degree to which NJ uses salt solutions for ice astounds me. Our roads look white and encrusted, makes me think of salt cod. Driving home the other night, I had more difficulty from the salt mist coating my windshield than I did with the light flurries. When rains, I would think all our lakes become temporarily saline. Is this a similar problem in Minnesota or New England?, because I know it's not as common in Colorado.

-Rampart


User currently offlinenkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2704 posts, RR: 6
Reply 114, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12652 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 113):

down here in south Jersey, they seem to use the brine alot more than rock salt... just makes white lines on the blacktop.



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 115, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12618 times:

My armchair marketing mind went to work again Sunday. With sixteen or so miles between Trenton and Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst. F9 may want to insure the military ITT (Information-Tickets-Travel) which is a MWR Military-Welfare-Recreation office on the base knows they are operating out the TTN airport.

All five branches of the Armed Services work at one or both of the bases and would be a potential customer base with some disposable cash as it relates to leisure tavel. It would also be good to get established with the USO and the Armed Services YMCA. Word of mouth spreads fairly quickly. I would think that is 10,000 if not more potential customers

As we near April 9 when all the flights come to fruition at TTN; F9 and or the TTN airport marketing team may want to contact the Air Mobility Command terminal at Joint Base Mcguire-Dix (J-B-M-D) to let them know the TTN is again an option. I realize TTN is a new option for the area and change does takes time. The J-B-M-D web URL is telling those arriving for duty or travel to use the PHL airport http://www.jointbasemdl.af.mil/passengerterminal.asp

In a ULCC model F9 should consider hiring a military liaison possibly a military retiree or spouse who has access to any military base to market all of these scenarios near the cities F9 flies. In my mind it would be money well spent with a return hand over fist.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 116, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12543 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 115):

Pasted from the Joint Base McGuire-Dix Air Mobility Command terminal URL I posted in #115 above.

"Travel to/from Phl Airport- Transportation to and from Philadelphia airport is available 7 days a week via Rapid Rover. Call for rates: 1 (800) 322-8062"

For any locals in the area familiar with the Rapid Rover service. In addition to the service offered between PHL and Joint Base McGuire-Dix; would the same service be available between TTN to Joint Base McGuire-Dix?

If Rapid Rover is a limo or airport shuttle most do offer door to door service. The Rapid Rover service sounds like mass transit on the NJ side of the state-line.

Thanks in Advance.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 117, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12512 times:
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Nope Rapid Rover is a limo/shuttle company. Doesn't offer service to TTN only PHL and ACY.

http://www.rapidrover.com/Default.aspx



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 118, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12368 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 117):

I suspect it shouldn't not take them long to get established at TTN. They are kind of pricy though. I priced a Mt. Holly to PHL fare, Mt. Holly being the closest town I remember as a 7-8 year old child to McGuire-Dix. The fare without discounts came back at $105.00 o/w If and when they get established at TTN I can't see a TTN-McGuire-Dix shuttle fare costing that much.

Their URL catchphrase caught my eye: Rapid Rover - "A Different Airport Shuttle" Service.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 119, posted (1 year 11 months 23 hours ago) and read 12305 times:
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Well they certainly have some improvements to make at TTN. No bathrooms after security, No food (even vending machines) after security. Which wouldn't make a big problem especially since they tell you about the bathroom at Check-in and prior to security, unless your flight is delayed and there is no way to get back to the terminal
even if you would be willing to go thru security again. There is a waiting area prior to security which I would recommend people use so they won't be stuck. Post Security area is just a group of seats and a TV.

Not good, the engineer needs to address this in his recommendations. Otherwise I'm going to venture that there will be few repeat customers. Plus is Trenton given low priority because it seems like my flight is delayed longer than most of the flights in Philly. The aircraft for the flight from Orlando arrived on-time from Denver.



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User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (1 year 11 months 23 hours ago) and read 12239 times:
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My flight just canceled and best they can do is Tommorrow at 1015pm


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User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 121, posted (1 year 11 months 22 hours ago) and read 12184 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 119):
Plus is Trenton given low priority because it seems like my flight is delayed longer than most of the flights in Philly. The aircraft for the flight from Orlando arrived on-time from Denver.

There is a risk in flying an airline with one flight per day (and limited backup), from an airport without any other alternatives, on a day with really crappy weather. I had this problem, to some extent, up at SWF. In your case, you have all the ingredients for a snafu, all working against you. Bad luck, but I don't think you can blame the airport alone, or the airline alone.

-Rampart


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 122, posted (1 year 11 months 20 hours ago) and read 12137 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 120):
My flight just canceled and best they can do is Tommorrow at 1015pm
Quoting rampart (Reply 121):
There is a risk in flying an airline with one flight per day (and limited backup), from an airport without any other alternatives, on a day with really crappy weather. I had this problem, to some extent, up at SWF. In your case, you have all the ingredients for a snafu, all working against you. Bad luck, but I don't think you can blame the airport alone, or the airline alone.

In a small way, this has already got to be a nightmare for F9, but hopefully they can have a better idea of how to prepare with this going forward. Yes, this is a weather delay, and they are going to happen, and pax probably will understand in this situation since F9 doesn't have control of this. But..... sometimes technical difficulties with F9 here will also happen, hopefully as few as possible, and along with the weather factor and maybe other factors, cancellations will start adding up. And if they add up to one too many at some point, the reputation on the reliance of flights to/from TTN becomes not good and potentially will drive pax away. Then low fares may be the only thing holding the pax at that point.

With all of the above said, would it be wise for F9/Republic to somehow maintain at least one aircraft at TTN, or make sure that some kind of plane is there a lot of the time for situations such as this? I know F9 is stretched, but maybe Republic has that lift? Hopefully F9 can quickly grasp what learning curve is involved with this situation and with luck can get through an easy and successful introduction, but once some higher number of flights are in play here, having back-up options may require $$$$ to maintain, but necessary in order to facilitate a favorable reliability with TTN and F9?

I'd also add that I believe that this is okay here in that I believe there isn't the same scheduled flight tomorrow, which would already hopefully be filled, so that most of today's pax couldn't just find a seat on tomorrow's plane. Where would the back-up plane be?

All the best to those in the wearied whether East right now........


 


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (1 year 11 months 20 hours ago) and read 12116 times:
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I'm not blaming the airline or airport, just a bit frustrated. My biggest concern is with the state of the terminal they do need to make modifications so that they have a bathroom and vending machine atleast past security. Security was nice though, they did let people back to the terminal through a door that led to baggage claim and back upstairs to the check-in area but something permanant needs to be done. On a positive note, I accidently put my brand new unopened tube of toothpaste that was too large in my carry on instead of my checked bag as I had planned. The guy had to confiscate it (he asked me if I wanted to bring it back to my car) and when my flight was canceled he found me in the waiting area and gave it back to me. They were from ACY.


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User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (1 year 11 months 20 hours ago) and read 12110 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 120):
My flight just canceled and best they can do is Tommorrow at 1015pm

That is going to be often. You are basically in the best case scenario in a cancellation for frontier at TTN. They have no other airlines to fall back and rebook and not alot of planes out there. Makes a little scared to book TTN now.

I have flown and booked allegiant quite often and always saw delays even if its hours late ot the next morning etc when they operate these spoke type roles a true cancellation is tough to rebook in this spoke type model. They also have multiple spares in LAS and usually have a few mad dogs on the ground anyway since they are so cheap the fleet is really not stretched even close to max


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 125, posted (1 year 11 months 20 hours ago) and read 12090 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 123):
I'm not blaming the airline or airport, just a bit frustrated.

If it's any consolation, the snow has started in the Denver area and is falling at a good clip. Maybe Colorado and some others in the area may be joining our Eastern friends who have bad weather affecting their flights......?

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 126, posted (1 year 11 months 20 hours ago) and read 12100 times:
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Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 123):
'm not blaming the airline or airport, just a bit frustrated.

  

It's very frustrating, I agree. I believe it is the first serious delay at TTN and it must have been quite wild weather for the Captain to decide not try it.

Hopefully, the aircraft situation improves with more flights - there will be two aircraft "based" (in schedule terms) at TTN and that may help some.

As to the terminal improvements, presumably that's underway. The contract has been approved.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 143 posts, RR: 12
Reply 127, posted (1 year 11 months 20 hours ago) and read 12168 times:

In the case of today's cancellation on TTN - MCO, the aircraft arrived MCO from DEN early, so the plane was cleaned, catered, fueled and ready to go. The crew was uneasy landing in TTN with the short runway and slick weather conditions. The flight was delayed for several hours before the decision was made to cancel the flight. F9 gave all MCO passengers travel vouchers and put everyone up in hotels. F9 scheduled an extra section from TTN to MCO for tomorrow night to accommodate all of the affected passengers. The aircraft sat at the gate in MCO with no place to go. I believe F9 did their best to make the flight happen. It had nothing to do with aircraft availability and the flight was scheduled for a fresh crew in MCO. Maybe the crew was a little overly cautious. Is TTN ready for prime time? Is F9 confident in the airport's ability to clean the runway?

User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (1 year 11 months 19 hours ago) and read 12123 times:
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I don't mean to complain but the TTN pax got squat. Are you sure the MCO pax got something? I assume they were also scheduled for an extra section?


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User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (1 year 11 months 19 hours ago) and read 12113 times:
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My experiences with Frontier, haven't been the best. I flown them 2 times. Once from SLC-DEN they lost my luggage, I did get it back and now this. LOL


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User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 130, posted (1 year 11 months 18 hours ago) and read 12080 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 120):
My flight just canceled and best they can do is Tommorrow at 1015pm

I feel your pain.

Quoting mariner (Reply 126):
It's very frustrating, I agree. I believe it is the first serious delay at TTN and it must have been quite wild weather for the Captain to decide not try it.

This reminds me so much of southeast Alaska where AS aircraft may or may not get in sometimes for 2-3 days. It is extremely difficult when your community is land locked and the only way in and out is by air or sea.

As it relates to visibility and minimums AS pilots flying into Juneau gave it three attempts from both directions of the runway. Thereafter they would fly over to Sitka (a 25 minute flight) and hope the weather would break. If the minimals lifted they flew back over to Juneau and gave it three more attempts before returning to SEA; sometimes up to ANC. The flight time between Juneau and SEA was roughly a two hour and fifteen minutes.

The AS gates in SEA were really good about keeping the passengers informed about potential delays at airports up the line and kept the pax informed. AS would usually takeoff hoping the weather would clear in the 2:15 it took to fly up the British Colubia and Alaska coastline. If the pax wanted to fly or wait until the next day. If they stayed in SEA the hotels were really good about offering deep discounts. or as we referred to it as the Alaska discount. This is where community comes together.

I'm sure this flight CX has more to do with overall safety of the crew and the flying public. I'm sure the Airbus 319 has the latest avionics bells and whistles. The RNP GPS AS prototyped in Juneau in the late 1990's early 20XX has been factory issue for several years on all Boeing aircraft. The delays Juneau experienced yesteryear are nothing more than a nuisance today. Still Juneau according to a AS pilot friend of mine is loaded into AS flight simulators. Practice makes perfect.

I remember flying from Juneau-SEA SEA-BOS. BOS had terrible weather. I remember hearing the pilot say as we deplaned "that was tough" and it was a bumpy landing. I mentioned to him as I exited almost like Juneau huh Captain. He smirked back. He had a little sweat on his brow.

[Edited 2013-01-28 18:03:12]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinenkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2704 posts, RR: 6
Reply 131, posted (1 year 11 months 8 hours ago) and read 11973 times:

So at what point does TTN get their own TSA personnel and not ACY?? When they go to daily flights, that is a miserable commute


I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (1 year 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 11944 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 111):
The snow melt or brine they use on the ramp and or walking bridge does tend to stain carpet and leave white blotches after it dries. Its not so bad if 1-2-3 walk on it; but 138 yikes. Lets hope F9 stocks extra aisle carpet in DEN. I suppose they could make the pax check their galoshes at the door.

For the record, TTN uses Calicum Chloride (or atleast thats what they used on the sidewalk outside the terminal), I would have gotten a picture but the Mercer County Sherriffs Department was right there and they probably would have considered it odd for someone to be taking a picture of snow melt.



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User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (1 year 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 11941 times:

Looks like they're throwing a little party at TTN
http://www.centraljersey.com/article...news/doc5106bfba9bd76047352332.txt


User currently offlinePHLJJS From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (1 year 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 11921 times:

Quoting nkops (Reply 131):
So at what point does TTN get their own TSA personnel and not ACY?? When they go to daily flights, that is a miserable commute

TTN had their own TSA personel until a few years ago when they last lost scheduled service. All of the TTN TSA personel were absorbed by PHL and ACY. It is likely that some, if not all of the TSA people working the TTN flights are somewhat local to TTN, so this is a break from the miserable commute to ACY.


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (1 year 11 months 1 hour ago) and read 11820 times:
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Well it only has 1 photo (more tonight when I try again) but I posted my trip report in the trip report forum if any one is interested.

Mercer To McCoy On F9 (TTN-MCO) Part 1 (by jerseyguy Jan 29 2013 in Trip Reports)



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User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11766 times:
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This is some kind of joke, isn't it? Where's the Camera??? My replacement flight is now DELAYED. Ok not by much but still its the point of the whole thing, I'm already 30 hours late.


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User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 137, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11702 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 136):

This is some kind of joke, isn't it? Where's the Camera??? My replacement flight is now DELAYED. Ok not by much but still its the point of the whole thing, I'm already 30 hours late.

If I didn't know better, I might guess that you don't fly much out of New Jersey in the Winter. Continental, er, United has it easy up at EWR to monkey around with alternate flights (which doesn't exist at TTN), but is also hamstrung by the delays prone to EWR... or the same story at LGA, and JFK, and PHL. I'm assuming TTN falls under the same crowded airspace issues that the rest have?

-Rampart


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 138, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11603 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 136):

It looks like jerseyguy is on his merry way to MCO http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT2002



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinerduco From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 38 posts, RR: 0
Reply 139, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11551 times:
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kind of scanned the topic // anyone think this could be a preempt to PeoplExpress(PEX)? // could they be the only one taking them seriously // or consider them a partner again?

[Edited 2013-01-29 21:40:57]


for the alliance
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11516 times:
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Rampart,
Yeah, I overreacted to the delay a little bit, just a bit frustrating when you lose 30 hours of your trip and end up arriving at 1am. Funny thing is we were about 30 minutes delayed on departure but luckily it was all made up in the air.

I am happy to report that like the pax on the MCO-TTN flight I received a $200 travel voucher. Which I suspect will help most people give Frontier another shot but some people are going to be turned off by this to the point that they are done with Frontier

[Edited 2013-01-29 23:33:02]


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User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 141, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11491 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 140):
I am happy to report that like the pax on the MCO-TTN flight I received a $200 travel voucher. Which I suspect will help most people give Frontier another shot but some people are going to be turned off by this to the point that they are done with Frontier

Glad they came through for you, both finally getting your flight, and a voucher. F9 and all the rest must realize how fickle customers can be. Comes up frequently enough for the likes of Ryanair and Spirit, for whatever reasons including weather delays beyond control, yet a large majority come back for more.

-Rampart


User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11467 times:

Frontier Airlines' shifting market strategy avoids competition:
http://www.denverpost.com/business/c...market-strategy-avoids-competition


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 143, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11434 times:

Quoting Sligo (Reply 142):

Good article thanks for posting. This caught my eye

"To be effective in Trenton, Shurz said Frontier must raise awareness about the airport"

It appears F9 advertising blitz for TTN is well underway. Courtesy DP.com

"The airport sits just off of Interstate 95, which is now speckled with lighted billboards for Frontier Airlines. Frontier's logo and introductory fares adorn the walls of New Jersey and Philadelphia's transit stations and inside trains"

The airline has handed out discount codes and gift cards, advertised on radio traffic reports and plans to advertise on the tops of pizza boxes near Princeton University and Rutgers University."

I still like my idea of printed brochures at the Interstate Welcome Centers augmented with lighted signage maybe 2' x' 3' on the wall. In lieu of the pizza boxes I might try Subway. College students are eating healthier today. Also those little 2" x 2" stickers I've seen attached to my Saturday & Sunday newspaper might be another economical marketing/advertising idea.

In lieu of the 4 x TTN-ATL service. As a secondary airports go I might have tried CHA for no other reason to catch the traffic around CHA and the north Georgia catchment area. (north of Atlanta) I say this because ATL sits in very south Atlanta. if your driving from the north the traffic like any larger metropolis becomes a parking lot much of the day The by-pass does help. CHA and Atlanta as a crow flies is about an hour. I've drove from a hotel on Peachtree St. in Atlanta to CHA in just under a hour and a half. Departing the hotel about 10:00 for a 1:00 PM flight. Additionally CHA is now home to the only Volkswagon manufacturing facility in the U.S.

I also think F9 may want to keep BNA in the back of their minds for additional frequency. Yes even though WN has a significant presence at BNA. Nashville is building the largest convention center in America; larger than SAN and MCO. I'm hearing conventions are already being booked into 2015. The new convention center is scheduled for a soft opening in March/April 2013. TTN-BNA maybe.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 144, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11278 times:
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I was going to do another trip report but after I got everything down a.net crapped out and lost everything so here is pics from TTN

Arrival Area (Pre-security)


Gate Area


Gate 1 (Yes there is a gate 2 I think its a broken jetbridge)


Gate 1 podium



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User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 145, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 11227 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 143):
I also think F9 may want to keep BNA in the back of their minds for additional frequency.

Nashville gets a plug courtesy of the NY Times http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/09/us...spotlight.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineNKOPS From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2704 posts, RR: 6
Reply 146, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 11095 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 144):

out of curiosity, what was the passenger loads like?



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 147, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11061 times:
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I didn't count the seats but I'd estimate 80-85%


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User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 148, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11053 times:

Assuming its the same airframe. The RSW-TTN turn according to their media release is only allowing for a 10 minute turn http://media.flyfrontier.com/article....cfm?article_id=5428&view_id=1290&

It arrives in RSW at 5:25 P.M. and departs back to TTN at 5:35 P.M. I realize the schedule is padded and the flight will probably arrive sooner or make up time in flight. It takes 10 minutes to get the cargo hold unloaded for the inbound segment.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 149, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11039 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 148):

Assuming its the same airframe. The RSW-TTN turn according to their media release is only allowing for a 10 minute turn http://media.flyfrontier.com/article....cfm?article_id=5428&view_id=1290&

I think it is an aircraft switch, Gent. The DEN-RSW flight arrives at about 4.40 and I think it goes on to TTN, while the TTN flight goes back to DEN from RSW.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 150, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10861 times:
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