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BA038 G-YMMM Crash - Five Years Ago Jan. 18, 2013  
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4905 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13172 times:

Today marks 5 years since BA0038 crash landed in LHR due to lose of power in both her engines...

British Airways Flight 38 (call sign Speedbird 38) was a scheduled flight from Beijing Capital International Airport which crash landed just short of the runway at its destination, London Heathrow Airport, on 17 January 2008 after an 8,100-kilometre (4,400 nmi; 5,000 mi) flight. There were no fatalities but 47 people sustained injuries; one serious. The 150-tonne aircraft was the first Boeing 777 to be written off in the model's twelve-year history.

Has the B777 been listed as one of the safest twin engine aircraft flying today...

Where are the crew which operated BA0038... Hopefully awarded for their great professionalism...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXdzNX4yttU


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Allan Huse



EK413


Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNYCAAer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 692 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 13114 times:

I can't believe it's been five years already. I believe it was the first officer who was at the controls, he's a hero for sure! I saw a documentary on BA 38, and he did an amazing job, with no loss of life nor major injuries to anyone on board. The captain, F/O and cabin service director were all given an award at a ceremony held by BA.

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4905 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 13093 times:

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 1):
I can't believe it's been five years already.

I can't believe it either until I was browsing the photo data base and stumbled across the photo...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5385 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 12984 times:

Quoting EK413 (Thread starter):
Has the B777 been listed as one of the safest twin engine aircraft flying today...

The 777 is the safest commercial airliner flying today, of any nature, based on the number of flights without a fatal accident.

[Edited 2013-01-18 22:13:17]

User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 12837 times:

Quoting EK413 (Thread starter):
Hopefully awarded for their great professionalism...

IIRC, the Captain wound up taking a few years off because he felt that BA wasn't treating his post-traumatic stress correctly. He and BA did eventually "bury the hatchet" and he resumed flying.

Quoting EK413 (Thread starter):
Has the B777 been listed as one of the safest twin engine aircraft flying today...

  

In fact, the problem was not with the aircraft itself, but was an issue specific to the RR Trent 800s, where ice would form in the fuel/oil heat exchanger and clog the filter.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineLofty From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 12625 times:

Remember the day very well it was my first and only time the Emergency Line rang and it was "Aircraft Accident Evacuation down chutes in progress".

User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 36
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 12539 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
In fact, the problem was not with the aircraft itself, but was an issue specific to the RR Trent 800s, where ice would form in the fuel/oil heat exchanger and clog the filter.

That makes it an aircraft problem, right? Boeing decided to hang these engines under their aircraft.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 3):
The 777 is the safest commercial airliner flying today, of any nature, based on the number of flights without a fatal accident.

The Emb-135/145 family had made more flights and also never anyone on board these aircraft died. A statistical problem might be an Emb-135 clipped of a GOL 737 wing making it crash. Also the A-319 had more flights then the 777 but if seen as part of the A-320 family there have been crashes obviously.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12439 times:

Quoting NYCAAer (Reply 1):
I believe it was the first officer who was at the controls, he's a hero for sure! I saw a documentary on BA 38, and he did an amazing job

Correct - although the AP disconnect alarm (I don't blame them for not remembering to cancel it!) But don't forget the Captain's actions too, such as deciding to leave the FO in control so he could find a fix, and raising the flaps to extend the glide (AAIB confirmed reducing the flap setting extended the glide enough to miss the ILS attena, and possibly more).

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
IIRC, the Captain wound up taking a few years off because he felt that BA wasn't treating his post-traumatic stress correctly. He and BA did eventually "bury the hatchet" and he resumed flying.

Yes, a happy end to a sad story. He didn't have a great time after the accident - as you said, he wasn't totally happy with BA's treatment (they probably underestimated the effects of the crash on the crew, seeing as there were no fatalities), and there were some fairly vicious rumours going around BA (apparently through the cabin crew mainly, and according to some, fuelled my management, but I don't see a motive for that) about how he "froze up" during the emergency and did nothing, and how he didn't make an evacuation order (both are untrue). After he left BA he looked for another job, but nobody would take him - he tried to get onto the 777 fleet with KAL and various middle eastern airlines, even going back to an FO if he had to, but a lot of these airlines have a "no accidents or incidents" rule on applying (which it totally ridiculous when it was absolutely known he did not cause he accident) and due to the high profile nature of BA038. (I guess if he'd widened his criteria he probably would have found a job, maybe not with a big prestigious carrier however). Happily in the end BA invited him back and he's flying 777s for them as we speak.

[Edited 2013-01-19 02:18:16]


Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlinetraindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12392 times:

The engines are chosen by the airline, NOT Boeing. The fuel iced up due to -80 F temps during flight and the heat exchanger design (unique to RR) was unable to keep this from happening. My wife and I flew DEL-EWR a week after the accident and our routing took us over Russia and Scandinavia and the outside air temps were also below -80 F. This is coldest outside air temp that I can remember flying through. And I have flown over 2,500,000 miles so far.

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4905 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12307 times:

If the fuel lines freeze which improvements are preventing it from happening again... Preventive action taken by RR...?

EK413

[Edited 2013-01-19 02:55:06]


Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinetraindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 12278 times:

To EK 413. RR did redesign the heat exchanger to better protect the fuel lines from the ultra cold temps at altitude. Neither GE or PW had the same design, nor the fuel icing problem. Sorry that I don't remember the source, but I followed the story extensively at the time as I had flown thru similar temps, but in a GE powered 777 a week later.

Traindoc


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3393 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 12161 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 6):
That makes it an aircraft problem, right? Boeing decided to hang these engines under their aircraft.

Like others have said the heat exchangers were the problem in conditions that were exceptional. Two things changed because of this.

Higher throttle settings during decent if the 777 sees this extended extreme cold soak. Part of the reason for the crash was decent at idle until just before the airport, So it wasn't a loss of power but rather an inability to increase power. Higher throttle settings keep the fuel flow up and help prevent the slushing.

Then of course RR developed a new heat exchanger.


User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 12116 times:

Having watched a few documentaries on this crash, and listened to the ATC recordings via a video on YouTube, I am always in awe of the professionalism and skill of the flight crew, cabin crew, the ATC controllers, Heathrow FRS and airport operations. To act that quickly and precisely in an extreme situation is amazing in my opinion. These are the people that should make the aviation industry proud to have  

A320ajm



If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12050 times:

I wonder why this fuel icing issue with the RR engines didn't come out during testing prior to full manufacturing of this model and engine combination. If I am correct, wasn't there other problems with the 777's with certain engines that delayed it's EIS? I am quite sure 777 prototypes as well as almost all other aircraft, were thoroughly tested for operations in similar temperature and other conditions.

User currently onlinegoosebayguy From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11900 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 13):
I wonder why this fuel icing issue with the RR engines didn't come out during testing

Testing normally works well but in this instance the extreme temperature was not tested for. RR simply made the heat exchanger larger and that has done the trick. There has been no repeat of this since. The Trent engine is a great engine far lighter than any of the competition, these things happen no matter how we try to prevent them.


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12428 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 11447 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 3):
The 777 is the safest commercial airliner flying today, of any nature, based on the number of flights without a fatal accident.

An incredible record; when you look at the number of 707s, DC8s, 727s and others lost in their early days, it makes the comparison even more stark. I don't think ANY aircraft in history has reached 1,000+ in operation, without a fatal accident.

It'a a great aircraft, but of course, it was the crew on the day who made the difference. It could have been a very much less happy ending had they not performed as they did.

Always interesting to listen to this; LHR controllers are widely reckoned to be among the very best. Here's why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJeEl0-1sjM


User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 543 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 11374 times:

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 14):

IIRC, there was not one or two more incidents in the following or preceeding months with RR engines loosing thrust capabilities but regaining them eventually?



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12428 posts, RR: 37
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10941 times:

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 16):
IIRC, there was not one or two more incidents in the following or preceeding months with RR engines loosing thrust capabilities but regaining them eventually?

Yes, there was one involving a DL 777, but I think that was shortly afterwards.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10764 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting traindoc (Reply 8):
The engines are chosen by the airline, NOT Boeing.

Nonsense. The manufacturer of the aircraft offers the limited choice in the first place, having developed those options with the engine manufacturer. The airline only chooses which one of those two or three types on offer suit them best.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineLCYFlyer From Germany, joined Oct 2007, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10479 times:

Wow, how time flies! Kudos to the crew of BA038 for the professional actions.
I was wondering why the APU inlet is open? Is it normal for the 777 to start the APU during approach or could the inlet have sprung open during the impact?



Cheers, Pierre
User currently offlineawthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9742 times:

I observe that from the instant of the Mayday call (made by nearby taxiing BA95 observer) the services can be seen on their way within 25 seconds, with the larger fire tenders arriving at the scene in 1 minute 34 seconds! This is fast !!!

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9519 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 15):
I don't think ANY aircraft in history has reached 1,000+ in operation, without a fatal accident.

The Embraer E-Jet family (170/175/190/195) is over 900 with only one fatal accident (in China)which appears to have had nothing to do with the aircraft, and also have to consider the many more sectors flown in shorthaul service..


User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9435 times:

Quoting awthompson (Reply 20):
I observe that from the instant of the Mayday call (made by nearby taxiing BA95 observer)

The mayday call was made by Captain Burkill of BA038, 2 seconds before it crashed, not by a nearby observer. He got the callsign wrong because that's the emergency callsign BA use in the sims.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1334 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9295 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 22):

Exactly - shows just how much training becomes ingrained and takes over in an emergency. Perfect response by everyone at LHR that day - but you'd expect that, considering everything has to run perfectly just to keep the operation on its feet.


User currently offlineawthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8865 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 22):
The mayday call was made by Captain Burkill of BA038, 2 seconds before it crashed, not by a nearby observer. He got the callsign wrong because that's the emergency callsign BA use in the sims.

I didn't have the facts there, just taking it for granted, especially since he said it twice. Thanks for the correction.


User currently offlinechuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 763 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9462 times:

Actually, I wonder how that tower controller coped after that accident. He was picture perfect in his handling of the situation, dispatching emergency vehicles, holding and vectoring all his aircraft as well. He doesn't really stop for about 5 minutes.

User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 950 posts, RR: 18
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9057 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXdzNX4yttU answers most of the questions you guys are asking. It's worth watching this 50-minute video.


FAA killed the purpose of my old signature: Use of approved electronic devices is now permitted.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4905 posts, RR: 4
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9041 times:

The crash investigators discovered foreign objects in the fuel tanks which probably ended up in the tanks when the aircraft was build...?

I guess this insistent allowed Boeing and the engine manufacturers to make necessary changes to make flying safer too...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinejetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2687 posts, RR: 53
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7350 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
where ice would form in the fuel/oil heat exchanger and clog the filter.
Quoting traindoc (Reply 8):
heat exchanger design (unique to RR) was unable to keep this from happening
Quoting traindoc (Reply 10):
Neither GE or PW had the same design, nor the fuel icing problem.

Interestingly, the RB211 had its FCOC / FOHE located on the fan case; whereas the CF6 and JT9 had theirs located on the core of the engine, which is much hotter. As far as I can tell, the Trent 800, GE90 and P&W 4000 share broadly the same architecture as their predecessors; thus, the FCOC / FOHE on the Trent 800 may have a harder task preventing ice accumulation compared to the other B777 engine options.

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2013-01-19 21:17:11]


JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1447 posts, RR: 12
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7292 times:

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 26):
Documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXdzNX4yttU answers most of the questions you guys are asking. It's worth watching this 50-minute video.

That's a VERY interesting documentary- I watched all of it and Thanks for sharing. I knew Speedbird 38 was doomed by ice but I didn't know how.



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineFlyingfox27 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7179 times:

That was such a lucky crash landing in a way, if it went wrong then our favourite plave at Myrtle Avenue would have been no longer available plus many casualties. Well done Burkill and Coward and all the ATC and Fure services that day.

Interestingly i have noticed that BA38 is now operated by a 747-400, is that just equipment change due to demand or BA not wanting to use a 777 on that route again just wondered?


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4905 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7006 times:

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 29):
That's a VERY interesting documentary- I watched all of it and Thanks for sharing. I knew Speedbird 38 was doomed by ice but I didn't know how.

That makes 2 of us... Just shows the crew are very well trained for every situation...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2960 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6923 times:

Quoting Flyingfox27 (Reply 30):
Interestingly i have noticed that BA38 is now operated by a 747-400, is that just equipment change due to demand or BA not wanting to use a 777 on that route again just wondered?

I don't think it became a 744 until the winter schedule change 9-10 months later, so I'd say it was probaly about growth on the route. They could have made the change for the summer schedule in April if it was about the 777.


User currently online1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 835 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6680 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I know it's daft but I feel sorry for the plane.

Such a magnificent machine carted off to the knackers yard in her prime !!

Well done to all involved at the time though.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1355 posts, RR: 3
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6636 times:

Quoting EK413 (Thread starter):
The 150-tonne aircraft was the first Boeing 777 to be written off in the model's twelve-year history.

I think Varig had one scrapped out prior to this.

Early 777-200 To Be Broken-Up For The First Time (by Leelaw Nov 15 2006 in Civil Aviation)

http://www.planespotters.net/Product...200/index.php?sort=status&dir=desc

Looks like maybe one was broken up in 2006. If so, this would also appear to be a former BA machine...



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1423 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6519 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 7):
vicious rumours going around BA (apparently through the cabin crew mainly, and according to some, fuelled my management, but I don't see a motive for that) about how he "froze up" during the emergency and did nothing, and how he didn't make an evacuation order (both are untrue)

Think it's a little unfair to single out the cabin crew community in this one. I personally heard the "rumours" myself but always from flight crew or ground staff. Fortunately I am happy to know a number of the crew on that flight and heard just how much they all admired the pilots on that day for what they did and therefore I would not get involved in hearsay regardless of whoever has motive! If it was management well we all know how much they love divide and conquer tactics!

As for the cabin crew, most are still flying however there is still a number who never returned due to ongoing health issues which I won't discuss here but alas it would appear support by the company is somewhat lacking for these individuals!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6400 times:

Quoting tonystan (Reply 35):
Think it's a little unfair to single out the cabin crew community in this one.

Yeah, I felt that as I was writing it, but that's the story I heard. I'm sure most of it was overblown anyway. Didn't mean to slander BA's cabin crew in any way. Needless to say, the rumours were formulated by people well removed from that flight.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1616 posts, RR: 7
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6363 times:

I recall seeing the airframe outside the BA hangar complex for many months as it was stripped of all usable parts. It also had been painted all white (like no one would know whose airplane it was!) before it was finally scrapped.

It is always sad to see a fine machine torn apart like that even when it is at the end of its useful life.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1447 posts, RR: 12
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 4 days ago) and read 6131 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 37):

I recall seeing the airframe outside the BA hangar complex for many months as it was stripped of all usable parts. It also had been painted all white (like no one would know whose airplane it was!) before it was finally scrapped.

When you really think about it, more than 90% of people flying into Heathrow most probably didn't know what was up with the plane after it happened so smart move for BA to paint it all white.



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7461 posts, RR: 17
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5964 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 33):
I know it's daft but I feel sorry for the plane.Such a magnificent machine carted off to the knackers yard in her prime !!

There is life after death.

The pilot of BA038, Capt Burkill visited the BA 777 Simulator at Cranebank, Cranford (near Heathrow) before rejoining BA in November 2010. He reported that this simulator was the flight deck of G-YMMM including its seats.

Here I quote Reply 22 by DeltaCaptain747 from this thread

Whats The Fate Of The Crashed B777 Of BA At LHR (by vegasdude Jan 10 2011 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=5032559&searchid=5034005&s=burkill#ID5034005

in full:

"Most of the cockpit section is used as a simulator at Cranebank. This is a quote from part of an e-mail I received from Captain Peter Burkill "I start back with BA in Nov, and I must say I am excited at starting work again after so long out of the seat. I visited Cranebank last week to sort out a few admin bits, and was shown the 'new' (to me anyway) 777 fixed based sim, which I will spend some time in in Nov, and ssaw that most of it is made up of 'MMMs' flight deck, including the seats!!"


User currently onlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5641 times:

He got the callsign wrong as BA095 was his next flight I believe. His book is eye opening. He got his old place on the seniority list back when he was welcomed back to BA, unprecedented but with the support of colleagues.

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 41, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5465 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 13):
I wonder why this fuel icing issue with the RR engines didn't come out during testing prior to full manufacturing of this model and engine combination.

It took a very specific combination of water in the fuel, flight profile, and temperature to make the situation happen. Until this event, nobody knew that this was a possible failure mode so it wasn't explicitly tested ever before. Thousands of 777 flights had taken place in very similar, but not exactly the same, conditions without ever discovering this failure mode.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 13):
If I am correct, wasn't there other problems with the 777's with certain engines that delayed it's EIS?

Yes, although they didn't have anything to do with fuel line icing. I don't think they actually delayed EIS, but they did make it rockier.

Tom.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4905 posts, RR: 4
Reply 42, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5262 times:

I didn't realize G-YMMM was so young delivered to BA in 2001...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Hall

EK413

[Edited 2013-01-21 03:23:35]


Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3359 posts, RR: 9
Reply 43, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4781 times:

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 14):
Testing normally works well but in this instance the extreme temperature was not tested for.

There were no extreme temperatures encountered on the course of this flight or any of the previous ones that this aircraft flew.

What caused this was ice that was actually in the plastic range where its sticky (- 20 deg C to - 8) and thus stuck to the fuel lines. On final there was turbulence that required enough of an increase in thrust to clog the fuel-oil heat exchanger with ice.

A similar thing happened on a DL 777 flying PVG-ATL but that happened in cruise and the engine was able to recover as the ice will melt over time. Unfortunately for BA 038 this happened on final and there was no time available for the plane to recover.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineLH707330 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 748 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4758 times:

I remember going through LHR a few weeks later and seeing G-YMMM in the mx area and pointing out the importance to my friends, none of whom were particularly interested after our 10-hour flight from SFO...

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4905 posts, RR: 4
Reply 45, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4694 times:

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 44):
I remember going through LHR a few weeks later and seeing G-YMMM in the mx area and pointing out the importance to my friends, none of whom were particularly interested after our 10-hour flight from SFO...

& had they been on the flight I'm sure their interests would've been far more different...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinevegas005 From Switzerland, joined Mar 2005, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4640 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 40):
He got the callsign wrong as BA095 was his next flight I believe.

Call sign BA95 is used in training and in a moment of stress he reverted to his many hours of simulator training.


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12428 posts, RR: 37
Reply 47, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4287 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 39):
He reported that this simulator was the flight deck of G-YMMM including its seats.

That would have been a cockpit procedures trainer rather than a simulator (I always associate the word "simulator" with a full axis of movement machine, designed to simulate flight conditions, not just the cockpit).

I'm really glad that Capt. Burkill managed to get back to BA with his old seniority number. He's 48 now, I guess, so still many years of flying ahead of him.


User currently onlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4157 times:

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 46):
Call sign BA95 is used in training and in a moment of stress he reverted to his many hours of simulator training.

I was taking what he said in his book at face value, he explained BA095 was his next leg and he had been doing some prep in the downtime on BA038. I may be going mad and making that up though....


User currently offlinerichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4247 posts, RR: 6
Reply 49, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4131 times:

Quoting traindoc (Reply 8):
The engines are chosen by the airline, NOT Boeing.
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
Nonsense. The manufacturer of the aircraft offers the limited choice in the first place, having developed those options with the engine manufacturer. The airline only chooses which one of those two or three types on offer suit them best

It's a bit pedantic but I have to go with RussianJet on this one. Yes, the airline chooses its engine manufacturer and seat layout, etc., but their choice is very limited. The airplane manufacturer designs its planes around the available engines and vice versa. It's not like the airline can say "Nah, I don't like those engine choices, I'm going with Manufacturer X!" In the case of BA, they have historically chosen RR engines for their aircraft, when available. It maybe largely poltical but it wouldn't look great for your country's flag carrier (sorry VS) to hang foreign jets under their planes when domestically made engines are available. It is, of course, in RR's best interest to have BA around as a long-term customer too.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 34):
I think Varig had one scrapped out prior to this.

Varig's B777 was scrapped, yes, but BA's was the first B777 to be written-off. Two different things. If BA038 had never happened, G-YMMM would still be flying around BA's network.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 50, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4007 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 48):
I may be going mad and making that up though....

I don't think you are...

www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/ge...ral_aviation/read.main/4750929/#37


User currently onlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3925 times:

Quoting richierich (Reply 49):
In the case of BA, they have historically chosen RR engines for their aircraft, when available.

It did cause a big old hooha whent they chose GE90s for the first B777s !


User currently offlinerichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4247 posts, RR: 6
Reply 52, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 51):
It did cause a big old hooha whent they chose GE90s for the first B777s !

Were the RR engines available at the time BA made this selection?



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2604 posts, RR: 5
Reply 53, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3602 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting richierich (Reply 52):
Were the RR engines available at the time BA made this selection?

Yes, they were. All of GE, PW and RR engines were available for selection by airlines when the 777 program was launched.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7461 posts, RR: 17
Reply 54, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

Quoting richierich (Reply 52):
Were the RR engines available at the time BA made this selection?

Yes. But the deal between BA and GE for the engines on BA's early 772s was complex. It also included the sale of BA's engine overaul facility at Treforest in South Wales to GE.


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