Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Another 100 Flights Were Canceled At Egll On Sat  
User currently offlinekamilinlondon From UK - England, joined Feb 2011, 14 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 9000 times:

Hi All

As this time of year comes Heathrow seems to be the Airport that cannot handle a day of continues snowfall.
Will that Airport ever be prepared for heavy snow ?????? . On Friday there were nearly 400 flights canceled!!!

My thoughts ....

Your thoughts????

Regards Kamilinlondon....


Kamilinlondon
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7329 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 8960 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

You do realise the airport really does need perfect weather to run efficiently given the generally accepted figure of being 99% full so any kind of disruption means trouble.

Tomorrow there's a 20% reduction in movements due forecast adverse weather.


User currently offlinekamilinlondon From UK - England, joined Feb 2011, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 8907 times:

Quoting david_itl (Reply 1):


Yes I do realize that. But in all fairness there are conditions you can get prepared for I think. I live about 2 miles from LHR and it was only snowing for couple of hours on Friday. So I'm surprised they didn't had a fleet of snow plough's or any other equipment just in case it will get white .
But then I'm not an Airport worker and might be wrong on it.  



Kamilinlondon
User currently offlinegoldcrest From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 8855 times:

Am also guessing that snow at various airports around Europe impacted the LHR operation also.

User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2848 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 8834 times:

Also please remember that if an airline has a hub somewhere that is impacted by a bad IROP (such as a snowstorm), and cancels a bunch of flights accordingly, it takes a few days to have full operational recovery based on aircraft and crew position. So, often times you will see cancellations for a day or so after the IROP as planes and crews re-position.

Quoting kamilinlondon (Reply 2):
So I'm surprised they didn't had a fleet of snow plough's or any other equipment just in case it will get white .

Even with a fleet of snow plows, airports can close. Happens all the time over here. The crews do their best, but it's not just runways but the taxiways and ramps and service roads that need to be kept cleared. It is A LOT of ground to cover, a lot of miles of concrete and asphalt to clear, and sometimes the storm just wins the battle over the crews trying to fight the storm. You are better safe than sorry, having a plane slide off the side or end of a runway after touching down is never a good thing, even if everyone walks away without a scratch.



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 8709 times:

Even if they have enough equipment to clear all of the runways, they have to close the runways and taxiways whilst they're clearing them, so inevitably some flights have to be cancelled. And if you clear the runway and it snows again, you have to start all over again. Another issue is de-icing. This takes a long time for each aircraft and they have to queue up for it, so it is impossible to maintain a flight every 60 seconds as would be normal - they can't de-ice them that quickly. I think people look at places like Stockholm or Moscow where there are less delays due to adverse weather, but these places aren't so full to capacity so closing the runway for half an hour there doesn't cause a huge backlogue of aircraft waiting to land / take off as it does at Heathrow, and de-icing is a normal procedure for almost every flight all through the winter. Amsterdam has has loads of runways, even Paris CDG has 4, so whilst clearing one they can still maintain operations on the others without significant delays. Closing a runway for an hour at Heathrow causes chaos, whilst at Amsterdam no-one would even notice.

User currently offlinekamilinlondon From UK - England, joined Feb 2011, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 8682 times:

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 4):

That's absolutely accurate answer to my questions. Thanks for the kindness B6JFKH81 . I am a newbie and comments like that are very pleasant to hear. All the best!!!

Regards Kamilinlondon.



Kamilinlondon
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2253 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 8648 times:

At least the airport remained open.

Ever since BAA hired the help of snow removal expertise from ORD, YUL and ZRH, the situation at LHR has improved dramatically.

Interesting read...

http://www.ft.com/cms/89937494-55ed-11e0-8de9-00144feab49a.pdf

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinekamilinlondon From UK - England, joined Feb 2011, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 16 hours ago) and read 8593 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 7):

Thanks for that. I remember that winter well to good. It took me 29h to get from TXL to LHR via LBA lol. Im glad they have used the experience of other Airports operatives..

Regards

Kamilinlondon.



Kamilinlondon
User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2848 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 16 hours ago) and read 8557 times:

Quoting kamilinlondon (Reply 6):
That's absolutely accurate answer to my questions. Thanks for the kindness B6JFKH81 . I am a newbie and comments like that are very pleasant to hear. All the best!!!

Anytime, that's what we're here for!  
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 7):
Interesting read...

http://www.ft.com/cms/89937494-55ed-...a.pdf

Taking a quick scan through it and you are correct, interesting indeed! I need to print this out and read it while having my evening cocktail tonight, lots of detail and analysis....I'm all about that!! Thanks for the link!



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlinemorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 16 hours ago) and read 8483 times:

Well if EGLL weather conditions are like EHAM (I think EGLL gets more snow, ut not much) then I can understand this. How many days per year do they have delays such as this weekend and yesterday due to snow?


have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 15 hours ago) and read 8265 times:

Even the hub airports in the US are like this. I will use MSP, since that is an airport that is affected often by winter weather. If they have to take out runways for snow removal...it will delay flights into the airport, so DL often cancels when that happens. Truthfully speaking, in the case of LHR, 400 flights is not the worst thing in the world.

User currently offline9w748capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 516 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 15 hours ago) and read 8119 times:

Would be a lot more helpful and descriptive to put LHR in the thread title. Sure, the true insiders here know what "EGLL" means - but a lot of us don't at first glance. Knowing it's LHR we're talking about adds a whole other dimension to the thread.

User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2788 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 14 hours ago) and read 8011 times:

Heathrow was also in LVPs for most of the day, so if you couple that with periods when each runway had to be closed for a sweep and de-ice, I think BAA handled the situation pretty well.

Having said that, this kind of thread rears its head every time the UK has snow, and we all know A.net armchair Airfield Managers are far more capable than the professionals out there actually doing it..!

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9378 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 14 hours ago) and read 7963 times:

Quoting kamilinlondon (Thread starter):
As this time of year comes Heathrow seems to be the Airport that cannot handle a day of continues snowfall.
Will that Airport ever be prepared for heavy snow ?????? . On Friday there were nearly 400 flights canceled!!!

With the slot system setup for normal weather conditions, any weather event that slows arrivals acceptance rate will cause delays and cancellations. This is just a fact of how airports that are busy respond to weather. Low fog and snow will always slow arrival rates. Regardless of how many plows you have, the runway will be unserviceable for some time.

Airports in most cities are built overcapacity. Denver rarely slows acceptance rates in the winter since its fair weather acceptance rate is three times normal capacity. On the other hand SFO always has acceptance rate dropping when clouds are below 4000ft and has flow control delays. Airlines prefer to plan for the best weather day and deal with the consequences in bad weather at busy airports.

The solution at LHR is more runways or lower the number of slots. Airlines want to operate at max capacity when they can and are willing to proactively cancel flights and deal with the consequences.

With that said there are areas of opportunity to improve the poor weather operations.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinetheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 14 hours ago) and read 7935 times:

Heathrow not the only one affected by snow, Geneva was closed earlier so even airports that deal with snow seemingly better than LHR can be affected.

User currently offlinebraby From UK - England, joined Mar 2007, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months ago) and read 4337 times:

Having been on shift at LHR these last couple of days I have to take my hat off to the BAA, normally they are a complete joke with any snow but this year have been very organised and cleared the snow from the airfield quickly and effectively.
The main problem this year though has been low vis, for the last two days LHR has been in an almost permenant state of low vis which couple with shutting runways for de-icing had reduced the flow rate to 6 arrivals per hour at one point, this of course is nothing to do with the BAA but NATS and Euro control.


User currently offlinekamilinlondon From UK - England, joined Feb 2011, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months ago) and read 4205 times:

Quoting braby (Reply 16):

Finally we have got someone that can give us hands on feedback. Thanks for that.

Regards Kamilinlondon.



Kamilinlondon
User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 582 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4035 times:

According to Sky News, at least a 20% scheduled chop for today too. I'm in east London and its starting to snow properly again and is expected to last 48 hours so it seems likely there will be more disruption.

User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 715 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

Quoting braby (Reply 16):
The main problem this year though has been low vis, for the last two days LHR has been in an almost permenant state of low vis which couple with shutting runways for de-icing had reduced the flow rate to 6 arrivals per hour at one point, this of course is nothing to do with the BAA but NATS and Euro control.

I understand what you are trying to say, but this is not the right wording. NATS and EUROCONTROL are not responsible for Low Visibility, but they manage the aircraft flow rate in accordance with low vis separation requirements. So they are doing their job perfectly, just as BAA is doing its job under these difficult operating circumstances.


User currently onlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 699 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

It was reported on the BBC news that CDG was expecting to have around 40% of flights cancelled today to help with snow clearance, so it isn't only LHR you know.
LHR and especially LGW has got better and ( eventually ) learned from past snow cock-ups.
This I think will be as good as LHR/LGW will ever get owing to, as has already been pointed out, the very high % of capacity the airports are running at. Until more runways are built anyway.


User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2439 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Perhaps BAA should learn from Finavia, the operator of HEL. How to cope with snow and two parallel runways  


Flying high and low
User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1324 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2384 times:

Quoting teme82 (Reply 21):
Perhaps BAA should learn from Finavia, the operator of HEL. How to cope with snow and two parallel runways

HEL = 15M pax (2011)
LHR = 69M pax (2011)

Not really a sensible comparison despite the same number of parallel runways.
The London airports have done much better this year, I arrived ON TIME at LTN from EDI on Friday evening despite snow falling and snow on the ground. I was very impressed with the improvements there since previous seasons.



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,B463,(..50 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7329 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2317 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Comparison of average number of days with snow:

Helsinki: Nov 7 Dec 11 Jan 14 Feb 13 Mar 9
London: Nov 0 Dec 2 Jan 2 Feb 2 Mar 2

So I would be very surprised if Helsinki wasn't able to cope.


User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2253 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2227 times:

Quoting teme82 (Reply 21):
Perhaps BAA should learn from Finavia, the operator of HEL. How to cope with snow and two parallel runways

Why would BAA even consult with Finavia?

HEL gets an average of 70 cm of snowfall every year. Hardly anything to brag about !

As i stated above (reply 7), BAA already consulted with airports that receive substantial amounts of snowfall per year, and that clearly isn't HEL. One such airport, YUL, receives on average 230cm + of snowfall every year, and it was consulted by BAA. So was ZRH and ORD, both of which receive more snowfall than HEL.

You no longer have to worry about BAA and LHR. As proven by the last few posts above, the situation there has improved considerably, and is now at par with most international airports.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
25 YXwatcherMKE : So, 400 flights were canceled out of how many daily flights? Try have ORD or EWR or JKF and so on, shut down for more than 24 to 48 hours and cancelli
26 david_itl : Handful of BA diversions this evening - one each to CWL, BRS and NCL. MAN had 2, GLA and LBA each had their shuttle return and DUS got their BA941 bac
27 traindoc : I flew into LHR on Friday and out on Sunday. Snowed both days and also very poor visibility all weekend. BAA did a very good job of keeping things run
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Spot-n-Dine At YYC On Sat Dec 13 posted Thu Dec 4 2003 00:08:19 by BO__einG
Anyone At FRA On Sat., May 16th? posted Wed Apr 23 2003 14:36:52 by Udo
NW DC-10 Makes Emergency Landing At Manila On Sat. posted Sun Apr 29 2001 07:49:47 by Jiml1126
Emirates Closing In On 100 Flights/Week To India posted Sun Oct 28 2007 20:39:16 by LAXDESI
Query: If You Were At AKL Today (Sat)... posted Fri Apr 11 2003 23:38:49 by B-HXB
T1+T2 Platform At FRA Will Be Reopened On Sat! posted Fri Nov 23 2001 12:17:26 by SQ325
Any Flights At Midnight On December 31? posted Tue Dec 28 1999 17:53:06 by Aviationman
Thomson B757s At Lisbon On Sunday posted Mon Dec 10 2012 02:25:25 by Peoro
DL A332, B744 & B777 At LAX On 11/26 posted Tue Oct 30 2012 18:57:12 by DTWLAX
Walk And Run At ORD On The Runway posted Sat Sep 29 2012 13:14:13 by boeingkid