Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 7  
User currently offlineLuxair747SP From Germany, joined May 2010, 504 posts, RR: 17
Posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 76813 times:

As the old threat was getting too long, please continue discussing here.


Part No. 6 of the thread can be found here:
A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 6 (by ManuCH Nov 8 2012 in Civil Aviation)

266 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 76760 times:

Ok
So where will the A350 RAT will be

http://ieee.rackoneup.net/rrvs/06/Emergency%20RATs%20Presentation.pdf

A330 like ? ou A300 like

If it's like the aeroweb picture it' new to the A350, and rather far behind the ventral gondola

http://www.aeroweb-fr.net/actualites...t-de-la350-sur-son-a340-300-dessai


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 76673 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 1):
So where will the A350 RAT will be

In the aft portion of the WTB fairing, it appears from the test arrangement. This is similar to Boeing widebody twins (not sure about Airbus Twins)

The red test rig looks like a setup to provide pressure data for the rat propeller in this location. Is this Airbus' first time putting a RAT aft of the maximum cross sectional area (Sears-Haack body)?


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3736 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 76601 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 2):
(not sure about Airbus Twins)

The A300/310 have their RATs in the wing to body joint area as well, between the right MLG and the belly.

The A330/340 have their little rodent out underneath the right wing.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4704 posts, RR: 38
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 76114 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting CM (Reply 2):
The red test rig looks like a setup to provide pressure data for the rat propeller in this location.

It sure looks like it with all the sensors mounted on this red testbed.


User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 75988 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 2):

All right, you must be right

In fact, i'm just dreaming that A350 batch 3 will have thinner wall insulation, because
- right now the insulation seems even thicker than on A330 ... even if engine should be quieter (external diameter - internal diameter is 6" on 787, 6.5" on 777, 7 on A330 and 7.5 on A350 !!)
- batch 3 change are discussed to be cabin related...
- a couple of centimeters will help 10 abreast in economy class

But I'm dreaming



Btw I've found no other photo of similar tests, and i've seem no comments on the composite panel acoustic test bed
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...re-skin-panel-on-a340-this-341186/


User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1548 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 75742 times:

Re Reply 5. I was reading one of the many articles in the papers recently on the troubles of the 787.He went on to talk about it's many advantages,with particular reference to passenger comfort etc.At the end (he had clearly flown on it) he mentioned in passing that it was a noisy aircraft to fly on. I have no idea whether this is true or not. But referencing the above comment. I wondered whether the acoustic properties of a carbon tube was different (noisier) than a traditional 'tube' hence the need for additional accoustic insulation?

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 75539 times:

Update on MSN003:

- The forward and central fuselage sections have arrived in TLS, final assembly should begin in the next few days.
- MSN003 is behind schedule but the assembly team will try to recover some time.
- Completing the central fuselage was more challenging but problems have been fixed in advance to avoid travelling work.
- The aft section should arrive next month.

http://www.bloga350.blogspot.nl/2013...-final-assembly-will-start-in.html

[Edited 2013-01-22 03:33:46]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4704 posts, RR: 38
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 75346 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
Update on MSN003:

Thanks for keeping us up to date. How much time the delay was (late delivery by Spirit) is at best almost 1 month since these panels were expected to be delivered just before Christmas (according to the link you provided). It will be interesting to see how much time they can make up on assembling MSN003.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 74085 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 5):
Btw I've found no other photo of similar tests, and i've seem no comments on the composite panel acoustic test bed

Actually if you look closely on the photo you will see that is indeed the insulation test bed A340, you see the composite panel above the RAT rake on the fuselage left hand side in front of the A350 text. It is the Alu panel which was replaced with a CFRP panel and which had and might still have new variants of the different insulation methods applied to it to test the sound and heat insulation capability vs weight, humidity absorption etc. You can see that the windows has a different shape to the A340 windows further back:




Non French in France
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 73780 times:

Ferpe,
That's what I said
And I was (wrongly ?) guessing that the red device is an acoustic tool... mesuring noise behin the engine in order to make valid comparison between the old alumium skin and the various CFRP solutions tested for the A350
This red thing seems to be so much bigger than RAT !


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 73334 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 10):
This red thing seems to be so much bigger than RAT !

OK, I misunderstood you, but that can't be for the noise IMO as it is on the wrong side.

I have this picture I have shown before re placement of the air cond and inerting units, the RAT is also on there. It is placed like the 787 on the aft side of the wing-fairing, here on the belly slightly to the right, just as it is placed on the 340 test aircraft. No doubt the A340 test is to check the dynamic pressure (Q) for its deployment on the A350, it is sufficiently far out from the wing fairing to not have strong influences if it is a 340 fairing or the 350 one IMO. I would think they rather want to test cruise Q, start config Q and landing Q etc :

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/AircondinertingandRAT_zps23947434.jpg



Non French in France
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 73183 times:

So it's OK for me.
I've seen your picture searching today more inputs  
I must listen experts out there

May I reasked : did anaybody has some inputs from this acoustics tests ?

Thanks


User currently offlinegoosebayguy From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 380 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 72249 times:

Rolls-Royce have delivered the first XWB engine with the second one due in about two weeks.

User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4704 posts, RR: 38
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days ago) and read 72089 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 13):
Rolls-Royce have delivered the first XWB engine with the second one due in about two weeks.

That is another major milestone for the A350-XWB program.   Thanks for the update.


User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 71373 times:

Yes great milestone
Looking for the EASA TCDS shortly ?


User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 69659 times:

Excuse me for asking this maybe stupid question, but I saw the documentary on the BA 744 D-Check the other day (some of you may know it too), where they also show the effects of a lightning strike on aluminium compared to 'plastic' aircraft, which is rather radical.
My question is how Airbus is solving this matter. Seems to me like there must be a good balance between metal and non-metal parts on the fuselage?

Regards



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30565 posts, RR: 84
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 69622 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Semaex (Reply 16):
My question is how Airbus is solving this matter.

Like Boeing, Airbus embeds a metal mesh into the CFRP. This metal mesh allows the lightning to travel to the metal understructure and then out of the plane.

This entry from the A350 blog provides more details as well as a link to a BBC video on the subject.


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days ago) and read 69574 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 16):
Excuse me for asking this maybe stupid question, but I saw the documentary on the BA 744 D-Check the other day (some of you may know it too), where they also show the effects of a lightning strike on aluminium compared to 'plastic' aircraft, which is rather radical.
My question is how Airbus is solving this matter. Seems to me like there must be a good balance between metal and non-metal parts on the fuselage?

I have not seen the documentary, but if it was showing lightning damage to a composite part on a 744, then it would have been a sandwich construction composite with a lightweight (and likely honeycomb) core. This is a very different type of material than is used for the majority of structures on the A350 (and 787), which are primarily built of laminate (solid) CFRP material.

The reason why this is an important distinction when it comes to lightning strike is because sandwich composites almost always have some trapped moisture inside the core material. When lightning strikes this kind of composite structure, the lightning energy super-heats the trapped moisture, which in turn, blows the face sheets off of the core. Generally speaking, laminate composites do not have this same mechanism in play during a lightning strike.

However, the A350 has numerous features designed into its structure which help minimize the economic damage from a lightning strike. These include EAF and ECF (expanded aluminum and copper foils), as well as other conductive paths on the exterior of the airplane which serve both as shielding for the structure, as well as providing a "lightning rod" effect in the form of a path of least resistance for attachment of a direct lightning strike. These features are tied into the overall current return path of the airplane, permitting lightning energy to safely pass through the airplane (in the sense of entering at the wingtip and exiting through the tail) with minimal damage to structure or risk to airplane systems.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 69002 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
MSN003 is behind schedule but the assembly team will try to recover some time.

That is a phrase pregnant with badness...assembly *always* tries to recover some time but I've never seen that actually work. They're always the recipients of issues cascading down from farther up in the supply chain.

Tom.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 68852 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 19):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
MSN003 is behind schedule but the assembly team will try to recover some time.

That is a phrase pregnant with badness...assembly *always* tries to recover some time but I've never seen that actually work. They're always the recipients of issues cascading down from farther up in the supply chain.

That is absolutely correct, what is meant however is that MSN5000 and MSN001 has come together on FAL from a pure assembly viewpoint better then the original planning foresaw, the fit of all the parts has been better then planned according to all involved (or they are outright lying  ). That does not isolate MSN0003 from the problem of late arriving parts or new problems with eg new or changed test installations. Lets see when she is finished, I think the original planning said roll-out 2-3 months after MSN001 ie June-July.



Non French in France
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1561 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 67624 times:

The FTB is doing cold weather testing in Iqaluit, a detailed news report attached, despite the news reporter stating that the A380 has 'several' engines, its worth watching.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/...0/north-airbus-engine-testing.html



BV
User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 445 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 67305 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 21):
The FTB is doing cold weather testing in Iqaluit, a detailed news report attached, despite the news reporter stating that the A380 has 'several' engines, its worth watching.

Nice find, thanks!

Interesting how the test engines control is "integrated" in the Cockpit - see 1:35.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 67229 times:

This should be about the last tests necessary for Engine certification, let's hope for that soon. Would be nice to look at the data in the TCDS.


Non French in France
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 66917 times:

Hello

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=56505

Airbus is watching the Li-ion battery fate with optimism :
1) design is safe
2) in case of regulatory change, they've time for incorporating a change
3) a plan B might be in place

Have a nice day


User currently offlineRickNRoll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 782 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 67501 times:

""We identified this fragility at the start of development and we think we resolved it about a year ago," Bregier said. "Nothing prevents us from going back to a classical plan that we have been studying in parallel.""

Always handy to find you have a plan B.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4704 posts, RR: 38
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 67259 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 24):
Airbus is watching the Li-ion battery fate with optimism :
1) design is safe
2) in case of regulatory change, they've time for incorporating a change
3) a plan B might be in place

Good to see that they seem to be prepared for everything, and that they have confidence in the safety of their base design of the batteries. What "Plan B" is is the million Dollar question of course.  


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4704 posts, RR: 38
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 68285 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 21):

The FTB is doing cold weather testing in Iqaluit, a detailed news report attached, despite the news reporter stating that the A380 has 'several' engines, its worth watching.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/....html

Thanks for the link. It is always nice to watch videos like these.


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1561 posts, RR: 3
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 67989 times:

Looks like you can get pretty close to the action at Iqaluit..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5T4Rcx0x_Y

The poster of this video says that they were doing RTO's in -30 weather, that must have been fun to see. In fact maybe we could organise an outing for next year when the A350 is bound to be doing its cold weather certification? Only half joking lol...



BV
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 67858 times:

Hello guys
New ACAPS for the A350-900 with a lot more details, and...

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...ch_data/AC/Airbus-ACA350-Jan13.pdf

- Bulk hold has shrunk ! (from 12.3 m3 to 9.2 m3)
- An A350-900 in maintenance configuration is now 142 t (vs 135 t for an unknown not neccessarly comparable config)
- 9 abreast in economy with 18" seat cushion (from 17.7) 1.5 armrest (from 2" !!) and 18.1 " aisles (from 18.35) This strange layoutis 216.5" wide 3.5" narrower than the max persmissible width (biz layout stays at 220") strange inst'it ?


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 67543 times:

Here is a another nice picture of MSN001 in Iqaluit:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/macinuk/8428072508/



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 67458 times:

Good catch Poncho, if 142t has something to do with the spec OEW (which is seems) then B does not have to be ashamed, this is 53% of MTOW versus the 788 52% something. Lets see if this is a OEW or DOW but what I think we see are that both are cooking with water  .


Non French in France
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 67214 times:

It was reported some time ago that the first A359s had a few tons overweight, 2-4t iirc. Worst off was the A358.

It´s a different world before the thing actually is flying. How often does an airframe come in at or below the targeted weight.

Another factor, customers have more input into new aircraft designs, there will be things added that was not a part of the start design.

For a building I am making some drawings for I think I have had to change the drawings about 12 times since we started, things get added or removed and with every change the mess gets worse, my pipes wont fit anymore in some areas etc. Then the heat still gets turned on me, I just follow the changes that get decided in meetings. This modern world, I don't know if I am so impressed anymore, people have lost the sense of reality.


User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 67070 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 31):

Ferpe, i guess that it is bow plus fuel (typical reserve fuel for typical trip). You won't drain fuel for every maintenance task
It's my guess
So mew + furnishing + reserve fuel


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30565 posts, RR: 84
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 66968 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Before Airbus stopped listing OEW in their ACAPS, they used the same criteria to define it as Boeing does. To wit (from the January 2011 A340-500/-600 ACAP):

Quote:
Weight of structure, powerplant, furnishings, systems, and other items of equipment that are an integral part of a particular aircraft configuration plus the operator’s items. The operator’s items are the flight and cabin crew and their baggage, unusable fuel, engine oil, emergency equipment, toilet chemical and fluids, galley structure, catering equipment, passenger seats and life vests, documents, etc.


And the first column of the Ground Clearances table was at OEW ["OWE MID CG"].

[Edited 2013-02-01 13:21:15]

User currently offlinea380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1102 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 66555 times:

If the 787 engines are beginning a new trend, why are the trent XWB not featuring these very thick anti ice protections that can be seen on Trent 1000?

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 65399 times:

Quoting a380900 (Reply 35):
If the 787 engines are beginning a new trend, why are the trent XWB not featuring these very thick anti ice protections that can be seen on Trent 1000?

Do you mean that the lips are not painted? That is for the laminar flow as far as I know.



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 64278 times:

MSN001 in station 30 on February 1, 2013:



And an update on MSN003:

Quote:
The most striking during the visit to the FAL was the absence of other items except the MSN1 in the assembly line. The station 50, where are assembled sections of fuselage from Saint-Nazaire and Germany, was completely empty. Same thing in the station 40 where wings from Great Britain are fixed. According to information gleaned on site, the assembly of the sections of the MSN3 will begin "in the coming days”. However they were originally planned for December. The American manufacturer Spirit, which makes the central section of the fuselage, would be at the origin of these delays.

MSN003 is now ~ 1.5 month behind schedule.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 64052 times:

And in other news, Airbus has started the first tests on MSN5000.

http://www.airbus.com/no_cache/newse..._medium=all_news&utm_campaign=RSS#

http://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/542753_606596032690018_975780728_n.jpg

[Edited 2013-02-05 03:54:06]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineHloutweg From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 63721 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 38):

This is actually, aircraft zero, not MSN5000. But this is a great development.



In Varietate Concordia
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 63652 times:

Can we compare it to BBD Ciasta for the Cseries ? (that is running since end of summer 2012 i think)

User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1561 posts, RR: 3
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 63644 times:

Quoting Hloutweg (Reply 39):
This is actually, aircraft zero, not MSN5000. But this is a great development.

Yes, this is the iron bird. A350 blog reported it as having begun 'flying' this week.

http://bloga350.blogspot.com.au/2013...xwb-virtually-makes-its-first.html



BV
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 63129 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 41):
Yes, this is the iron bird. A350 blog reported it as having begun 'flying' this week.

I think it has been "flying" for quite some time, what Airbus state is that the test bed flies exactly the missions that MSN001 will fly when they start the test campaign. I can imagine that pilots, flight test crews etc are then staffing the iron bird exactly as they will this summer and that they start to collect data from all the sensors which are representative of what they shall see once they fly. Thereby they and the ground test center crew can identify any parameter that will not behave as expected later and decide if that means the test will be modified or even terminated. All this will be a rader large job where all equipment had to be updated to the (software) revision and status it will have at the summer flights, not a small feat.


Re the delays for MSN003 I think there is something more then just Spirit dragging their feet behind. The thing to notice is that the delays suddenly hit the mid section (where the wings are attached) a bit into the program. Time wise it is after the half wing+pylon+center wingbox has been tested at IABG this summer  Wow! . Also the MSN5000 tests were said to start in March despite the frame being rolled over 23rd of November, I don't think it takes 4 months to hook her up.

My conclusion is A had to make some changes to the center section which will have to be incorporated into MSN003 and MSN5000 as these frames have to demonstrate the structural integrity of the program. MSN001 and 002 does not need to be subjected to full limit load in the flight test program, they can be cleared for a narrower envelope, but 5000 and 003 needs to go to ultimate load (1.5* limit for MSN5000) and limit load (max flight loads for MSN003) respectively otherwise there will be no type certificate.

So I don't think Spirit could not suddenly keep the (unchanged) pace, they could not rally the forces to implement wanted changes fast enough for Airbus needs and then produce sections with these changes in it.



Non French in France
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4704 posts, RR: 38
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 62975 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 42):
Re the delays for MSN003 I think there is something more then just Spirit dragging their feet behind. The thing to notice is that the delays suddenly hit the mid section (where the wings are attached) a bit into the program. Time wise it is after the half wing+pylon+center wingbox has been tested at IABG this summer   . Also the MSN5000 tests were said to start in March despite the frame being rolled over 23rd of November, I don't think it takes 4 months to hook her up.

My conclusion is A had to make some changes to the center section which will have to be incorporated into MSN003 and MSN5000 as these frames have to demonstrate the structural integrity of the program. MSN001 and 002 does not need to be subjected to full limit load in the flight test program, they can be cleared for a narrower envelope, but 5000 and 003 needs to go to ultimate load (1.5* limit for MSN5000) and limit load (max flight loads for MSN003) respectively otherwise there will be no type certificate.

So I don't think Spirit could not suddenly keep the (unchanged) pace, they could not rally the forces to implement wanted changes fast enough for Airbus needs and then produce sections with these changes in it.

Your analysis sounds highly plausible. But even if this is the case, it is a very good thing that they have acted on the issue (if it is this issue) promptly and in this stage of the program. Time will tell us exactly what the reasons for this delay are.


User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 258 posts, RR: 23
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 62140 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 42):
Also the MSN5000 tests were said to start in March despite the frame being rolled over 23rd of November, I don't think it takes 4 months to hook her up.

Sorry but I have to correct you here. It does take up to 5 months to hook it up entirely.

When you enter the "cathedral", you then realise how many cables, pressure gauges and other interfaces have to be connected. This is herculean work at its best, and the way the hangar is set up implies a lot of time consuming activities just to get the airframe properly located at the right spot.

Then every single sensor/gauges must be tested before they start anything. This was always the plan, so no "hidden" issue.



No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlinePugman211 From UK - England, joined Dec 2012, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 62074 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I may have missed the posts, but is there any updates/images/video of how the XWB blade off test went??? Also, what about the half wing ultimate load test???

Thanks


User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 62063 times:

Remembering an Aweek article revealing 3 batches for the A350

Batch 1 : MSN1 to 5
Batch 2 : MSN6 to 16
Batch 3 : >MSN17

That was in end august 2012 (with FF already planning in mid 2013)

Betting on a 1 frame a month, if the schedules slips a little, can it be possible for airbus to reduce batch 1 ?


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 61851 times:

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 44):
This was always the plan, so no "hidden" issue.

Thanks knoxibus, much appreciated. Now what delays MSN003 then, because Spirit was delivering for MSN5000 and 001 (and perhaps 002?, we don't know that as it is in cabin pre-equipping and that takes time), was it the changes/adaptations to fit the cabin in 002?



Non French in France
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 61844 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 46):
can it be possible for airbus to reduce batch 1 ?

The parts for Batch 1 (001 to 005) was already in production IMO, you start producing the long lead time items almost 2 years before FAL and when you start producing a CFRP part you need the design to be 100% finished as it is an additive process. For Al CNC machined parts it is a process of taking the raw cuts first and then finally the finishing touches, the final mm can then be fixed just before those finishing touches.

This was one of the problems that Evrard described as the problem with this changed way of making the frames, you have to be more mature with the design before you can start production, and then once produced you can't modify the part easily. If you find you can reduce the material thickness on a Al part many times you can just re.enter it in the CNC and mill a bit further.



Non French in France
User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 258 posts, RR: 23
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 61093 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 47):
Now what delays MSN003 then, because Spirit was delivering for MSN5000 and 001 (and perhaps 002?, we don't know that as it is in cabin pre-equipping and that takes time), was it the changes/adaptations to fit the cabin in 002?

Not sure of the reasons. MSN 003 should be in pretty soon I hope.



No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 60375 times:

http://www.rolls-royce.com/news/pres...070213_easa_type_certification.jsp

7th February 2013 : The TXWB receives EASA certification.

The new engine has 'graduated'!


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1561 posts, RR: 3
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 60398 times:

Well done to RR and the A350    looks like all they were waiting for was the cold weather tests.


BV
User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 60497 times:

Somebody has recently asked the question at what time the blade-off test was performed and whether there is any footage to it....

anybody?


Congrats RR and Airbus to another milestone in the program!



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1561 posts, RR: 3
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 60454 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 52):
Somebody has recently asked the question at what time the blade-off test was performed and whether there is any footage to it....

anybody?

It was performed mid December I think, no footage of it has come to light so far. Probably have to wait for the making of the engine documentary in a few years, I believe that where the T900 footage first appeared..



BV
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 59967 times:

Here the type certificate for the Rolls-Royce Trent XWB:

http://easa.europa.eu/certification/...XWB_Series_engines-01-07022013.pdf

From Leeham OV-099:
…..And the engine (dry) weight is :

- TXWB: 7277 kg (i.e. not including nacelle etc.)
-Trent-900 is 6436 kg.
-Trent-500 is 4990 kg
-Trent-700 is 4763
-Trent-800 is 6078 kg
-Trent-1000 is 5409 kg
-GE90-90 is 7893 kg
-GE90-115 is 8761 kg

It costs weight to have a large fan and a high pressure ratio.

[Edited 2013-02-07 09:21:44]


Non French in France
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4704 posts, RR: 38
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 59961 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PM (Reply 50):
7th February 2013 : The TXWB receives EASA certification.

The new engine has 'graduated'!

Great news for RR and the A350-XWB program.  


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 59756 times:

And here the Airbus press release:

http://www.airbus.com/no_cache/newse..._medium=all_press&utm_campaign=RSS

Nice that Evrard says:

"These new engines together with the aircraft’s advanced aerodynamics and airframe technologies will bring our airline customers a 25 percent step-improvement in fuel efficiency."

So they seem to be near spec TSFC, we know they are not there yet (Bregier in Jan) but he said they expected series engines to be there. Evrard seem to confirm that.



Non French in France
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1561 posts, RR: 3
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 59714 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 54):
It costs weight to have a large fan and a high pressure ratio.

Yup she's a bit of a porker!

EASA put the dry weight of the T900 as 6246 kg so 7277 for the XWB is +1031 kg

We may have to reevaluate if we will see a TXWB powered A380



BV
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 59599 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 57):
We may have to reevaluate if we will see a TXWB powered A380

You are right, that is 4.2t before the nacelle and pylons changes  Wow! . With nacelles and new pylons/wing beefing it sets you back 200nm before you start to count the gains  Yeah sure .

[Edited 2013-02-07 11:08:17]


Non French in France
User currently offlineaffirmative From France, joined Jul 2009, 350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 59460 times:

Well, to put it in perspective. Didn't EK put a 4t system just to have their onboard spa? I don't see 4.2t as that much considering the gains. However, with a slightly redesigned engine some of that weight might be shed if there would be an application for the A380.. An if were talking A389 I'd say it's a small gain in the big picture.

Maybe I'm wrong..



I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 59203 times:

Hello
Thank you FERPE for the type certificate

No ETOPS at this point
No mention of the flat rated temperatures also
The weight is said to be "maximum" weight ? what can it mean ?

It's indeed quite heavy !
But the T900 is a 70-84 000 lbs engine whereas the TXWB basic is a 75-90 000 lbs
So we might compare it to the GE90-76/94.... and it's not to bad at all.

Trent 1000 is fairly light (but it's topping at 72 000 lbs for the moment)


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 59214 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 60):
No ETOPS at this point

Correct me if I'm wrong but ETOPS certification should be done on a production frame (MSN 6?), so that's something for next year.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineabba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1329 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 59171 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 58):
You are right, that is 4.2t before the nacelle and pylons changes . With nacelles and new pylons/wing beefing it sets you back 200nm before you start to count the gains



Couldn't the gain in terms of efficient improvement outstrip the loss?


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 63, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 58137 times:

Quoting abba (Reply 62):
Couldn't the gain in terms of efficient improvement outstrip the loss?

I did a check, the heavier TXWB A380 will fly 300nm longer ie some 8400nm, I then shortend the leg to 6000nm ESAD and it consumed 9t less fuell still.

There is also some news on the 97klbf version for the A350-1000, it had critical design review in Jan 2013. RR will now build a test TXWB from 84klbf parts but with the high turbines from the 97k version, it should verify the design before they build first prototypes to be finished mid 2014 :

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_02_12_2013_p01-01-547721.xml



Non French in France
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 64, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 57873 times:

Hello Ferpe

At max range: 300 NM is a 40 min flight ... so 6-7 t of fuel or so ?
How can it be - 9 t at only 6000 Nm ?

The XWB report is conflicting ? I guess the XWB84-97 will run this year, and the full flavour XWB97 next year...


User currently offlineJerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 634 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 57647 times:

The article referred to by Ferpe states;

“We will get more power out of the core by making it bigger and improve the turbine’s capabilities to run the engine hotter,” says Young, adding that the focus is on putting new technology into the turbine. Changes for the XWB-97 include the use of next-generation CMS-X4 single-crystal materials and anti-oxidation coatings in the high-pressure turbine, which will be shroudless for the first time on a Trent engine.

The turbine disc also will be forged from a dual microstructure disc that will provide greater stress capability toward the center of the hub, while exhibiting better creep resistance toward the tips. Other improvements include a more sophisticated adaptive bleed system, which is designed to turn cooling air bleed off during cruise when not required. The intermediate (IP) compressor features a “rising line” or inner annulus line that increases in radius, thereby boosting the tip speed of the aft stages. The high-pressure compressor is derived from the European New Aero Engine Core Concept program and is connected to the IP by a swan-neck duct."

How much of this can be applied later to the smaller TXWBs by way of PIPs?


User currently offlinemjoelnir From Iceland, joined Feb 2013, 1349 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 57573 times:

I think we will not see a trent xwb on the A 380-800.
We will see a flow of technologies downwards.
Regarding the advertised differences in fuel burn beetween the Trent XWB and the Trent 900, it is the difference at that time.
Since than the 900 has got improvements and the XWB still has to show the advertised numbers.
The difference could be less than advertised in the beginning.

[Edited 2013-02-12 06:27:17]

[Edited 2013-02-12 06:27:56]

[Edited 2013-02-12 06:28:41]

[Edited 2013-02-12 06:29:20]

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 67, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 57281 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 64):
At max range: 300 NM is a 40 min flight ... so 6-7 t of fuel or so ?
How can it be - 9 t at only 6000 Nm ?

Lets do it a bit more methodical and see if I did any thought somersaults  .

I take a 575t std A380 having a range of 8300nm where it consumed 226t of trip fuel. I then apply the TXWB, means OEW is now 280t, MTOW 575t, range 8600nm and fuel consum for these 8600nm is 221t. To check what happens when you fly a shorter leg I fly both 6000nm ESAD, then the T900 version consumes 150t and the TXWB version 141t. I then have average cruise weight of around 463t for the max range flights and average trip FF of 13.2t/hr for the T900 and 12.5t for the TXWB version, for the 6000nm it is around 421t and 12.2t and 11.5t.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 65):
How much of this can be applied later to the smaller TXWBs by way of PIPs?

Difficult to say as the new high pressure turbine is a totally new design to RR, first time where they do not use a shrouded blade (blade with the duct roof on the blade). Instead they use a normal blade with active clearance control like GE and PW does, thus this part if totally new from rotor and duct. You would need to change the whole HPT module, not evident they will as it could force changes to the LPT module as well. As the regulation of the cooling flow to the turbines goes they do that already today AFAIK it is just a more aggressive scheme with fluidistor control elements and probably not just a simple flow control but also distribution pattern changes, this should be possible to waterfall unless it requires drastic changes to the module cooling flow ducting/piping.



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 68, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 56980 times:

An A350 section being (un)loaded from/in the Beluga. Picture taken today.


(uploaded by http://www.flickr.com/photos/xfwspotter)



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 69, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 56920 times:

I checked the Spirit Aerosystems webcast from their 2012 call today, the A350 delays came up. Spirit CEO said these were caused by "late braking changes" to the structure "not caused by Spirit". Spirit had delivered the MSN003 structure in Q4 2012 and today had delivered 4 flying middle sections and 2 non flying to Airbus St Nazaire.

This gives merit to may assumption there are changes being made to the center section after the design freeze and production of MSN5000 and MSN001. One day we will know whether these changes were for cabin attachment or for ultimate load issues. Amyway good to know that the MSN004 section should be a St Nazaire and that the fatigue section should be delivered as well (should be delivered as shipset no 5).



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 70, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 56791 times:

Just a stupid question but will there be a MSN5001 like the A380 had?

Quoting ferpe (Reply 69):
Spirit CEO said these were caused by "late braking changes" to the structure "not caused by Spirit".

Now that's interesting.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 69):
Spirit had delivered the MSN003 structure in Q4 2012

It's getting more interesting! So parts for MSN003 are delivered but where not in station 59 nor station 50 or 40 on February 1. It looks like Airbus is reworking those parts at St Nazaire to avoid traveling work in the FAL.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 69):
and today had delivered 4 flying middle sections and 2 non flying to Airbus St Nazaire.

So we have:

MSN5000
MSN???? (ES)

MSN001
MSN002 ?
MSN003
MSN004 ?



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1586 posts, RR: 7
Reply 71, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 56682 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 70):

Just a stupid question but will there be a MSN5001 like the A380 had?

Please allow me to retort with probably a dumber question; what was the A380 MSN5001 frame used for? A second static test frame?

[Edited 2013-02-12 13:18:53]


Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 72, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 56653 times:

The A380 MSN5000 was used for static tests while MSN5001 was used for fatigue testing. Boeing also had 2 787 frames for this (ZY997 and ZY998).

For the A350 there is MSN5000 for static tests and some loose parts for fatigue testing but it's not clear to me if those parts will become MSN5001 (because there is only 1 wing).

[Edited 2013-02-12 13:49:21]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 73, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 56456 times:

The part being loaded into the Beluga is a section 11-14 (ie direct behind the cockpit) made in Nordenham, it is being flown from XFW to St Nazaire to be mated to the cockpit section from Meulte.

Re production, last time Airbus presented an order it was MSN001, 5000, MSN002, MSN003, MSN5001 in parts, MSN004. In the production flow MSN5000 then overtook MSN001 to FAL as sections from 001 took longer in preFAL, the same with 003 and 002. The fatigue sections are going in 3 parts to fatigue test, here a picture over the different static and fatigue test units:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/A350staticandfatiguetestunitsjpg_zps88786509.png

EW is the section which has already been tested summer 2012 at IABG Erding near Münich, it is from there I think some of the changes to the Spirit center section has come. The 3 fatigue sections are probably all at preFAL right now and will be delivered to different IABG/Airbus places later this spring, more on the test plan here:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-for-main-structural-tests-365076/

[Edited 2013-02-12 14:32:22]


Non French in France
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 74, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 55989 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 70):
It's getting more interesting! So parts for MSN003 are delivered but where not in station 59 nor station 50 or 40 on February 1. It looks like Airbus is reworking those parts at St Nazaire to avoid traveling work in the FAL.

That section 15-21 does not appear in FAL until now in Feb is normal, Spirit does only upper body structural parts. It produces the panels in Kinston NC and then assembles it to section 15 in their factory in St Nazaire:



Airbus Nantes does the center wingbox and keel beam and Aerolia the wheel well. All those pieces are then shipped to Airbus St Nazaire where they are mated and then the preFAL equipping with system components starts at St Nazaire. This take several months, only when section 15-21 is structurally and system wise complete and tested does it load on a Beluga and get flown to FAL at TLS.



Non French in France
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 75, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 54780 times:

So Airbus has taken the safe route as there was little to gain from staying with Li-Ion batteries but much to loose. Better focus on other problems:

According to Airbus (who communicated this decisions to their customers yesterday) the A350 program has decided to switch to NiCd for EIS aircraft to avoid certification uncertainty more then any doubts about the designs risks with their present design. Flight testing will start with Li-Ion, expect them to have switched for the route proving aircraft:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2013...s/ap-us-airbus-batteries.html?_r=0


" NEW YORK (AP) — Airbus is dropping lithium-ion batteries from its new A350 airplane because of uncertainty surrounding the technology that has led to the grounding of Boeing's 787.

The European planemaker said late Thursday that it has decided to revert to nickel-cadmium batteries for the A350. The plane is a wide-body jet rival to the 787 and is expected to make its first flight around the middle of the year.

Airbus says it does not expect the battery switch to delay the A350. "

[Edited 2013-02-14 19:25:10]


Non French in France
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9977 posts, RR: 96
Reply 76, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 54416 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 75):
According to Airbus (who communicated this decisions to their customers yesterday) the A350 program has decided to switch to NiCd for EIS aircraft to avoid certification uncertainty more then any doubts about the designs risks with their present design. Flight testing will start with Li-Ion, expect them to have switched for the route proving aircraft:

Having test aircraft flying with Li-Ion batteries presumably supports the option of reverting to Li-Ion at a later date, once technical uncertainties become resolved.

Rgds


User currently offlinePart147 From Ireland, joined Dec 2008, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 54739 times:

The way I see it, Airbus seems more concerned about possible problems the FAA/EASA may have certifying Li-Ion technology and has so, rightly I think, avoided THAT delay rather than having doubts about the battery itself.


It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 78, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 54555 times:

All right,
It won't make Boeing life easier I think ... stuck with Li-ion !


User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9977 posts, RR: 96
Reply 79, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 54529 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Part147 (Reply 77):
The way I see it, Airbus seems more concerned about possible problems the FAA/EASA may have certifying Li-Ion technology and has so, rightly I think, avoided THAT delay rather than having doubts about the battery itself

That's how I see it too ...

Going forward, they can use the test frames flying with Li-Ion batteries to "Ion" out the certification problems in slower time ....  

Rgds


User currently offlinejpmagero From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 54325 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Airbus to drop Lithium-Ion Batteries in A350


John M - Aussie expat in the US
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 81, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 54244 times:

Smart move. I'm sure Airbus still has confidence in the Li-ion battery but it may take months before the NTSB found the problem, and the fix - whatever it might be - will probably require extra certification work which could delay the A350 EIS.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 82, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 53341 times:

And now it is official:

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...plan-b-for-the-a350-xwb-batteries/

" Airbus activates “Plan B” for the A350 XWB batteries

Reverts back to nickel cadmium technology
15 February 2013 Press Release

Airbus is confident that the lithium ion (Li-ion) main battery architecture it has been developing with Saft and qualifying for the A350 XWB aircraft is robust and safe. The A350 XWB flight test programme will continue as planned with the qualified Li-ion main batteries.

However, to date, the root causes of the two recent industry Li-ion main batteries incidents remain unexplained to the best of our knowledge. In this context, and with a view to ensuring the highest level of programme certainty, Airbus has decided to activate its “Plan B” and therefore to revert back to the proven and mastered nickel cadmium main batteries for its A350 XWB programme at Entry into Service (EIS). Airbus considers this to be the most appropriate way forward in the interest of programme execution and A350 XWB reliability.

In parallel, Airbus has also launched additional maturity studies on Li-ion main batteries behavior in aerospace operations and will naturally take on board the findings of the ongoing official investigation.

As a result of making this decision now, Airbus does not expect it to impact the A350 XWB Entry Into Service schedule. "



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 83, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 53272 times:

Any idea about the extra weight?


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently onlinekmz From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 160 posts, RR: 2
Reply 84, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 53227 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 81):
Smart move

?

I am not sure. I either develop something according spec and requirements or I don't. Or I am not sure. Not good. They should continue with the Li-Ion. Or they want to detract form other problems/delays and have a welcome reason to push to the front?


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7987 posts, RR: 5
Reply 85, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 53197 times:

It may also depend on if the vastly safer dry-electrode Lithium-ion batteries became available in the next few years. If the safer Li-On packs do become commercially available, then Airbus may put them back into the A350, saving nearly 200 pounds of weight over a similar power NiCad battery pack.

User currently onlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2366 posts, RR: 11
Reply 86, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 52932 times:

Quoting kmz (Reply 84):
I either develop something according spec and requirements or I don't

The problem is that in the light of the 787 problems, and as a fall-out of the lessons learned, certification standards (CS - Certification Specifications in EASA land) might be changed. So the problem now is that you're no longer sure what the specs look like by the time the authorities are expected to sign off on the Type Certificate.

While it's true that the CS specs have been agreed with between EASA/FAA and Airbus, and set in stone some time ago, Airbus is not waiting for big AD's to be thrown at them before first delivery. It's one of those known unknowns, and Airbus needs to manage that risk right now. They can't afford to do that at EIS, as they still have the time do these changes without any meaningful disruption to the program.

Rgds,
PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 87, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 51880 times:

MSN1 today:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BDZ3tQDCMAAX-yY.jpg:large

http://twitter.com/Airbus/status/303561644171210753

A high-res picture can be found at http://www.airbus.com/galleries/photo-gallery/

[Edited 2013-02-18 10:13:58]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12888 posts, RR: 100
Reply 88, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 51350 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I'm excited to see this plane is progressing to first flight.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 38):

And in other news, Airbus has started the first tests on MSN5000.

Good to see. Having an iron bird 'flying' really helps stress certain software code. For example, I worked an aircraft where the software didn't handle a simulated generator shaft failure quite right. Or the brake ABS software didn't quite work right when all the hardware was connected. It was funny watching the simulated aircraft blown off the runway... Funny in that 'oh boy, we just caught a major issue, let's fix it' kind of way.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 58):
Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 57):
We may have to reevaluate if we will see a TXWB powered A380

You are right, that is 4.2t before the nacelle and pylons changes   . With nacelles and new pylons/wing beefing it sets you back 200nm before you start to count the gains

I like Ferpe's later math. I suspect the A389 will have TXWBs (or something derived), but *after* RR figures out how to take out some of the added weight.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 67):
first time where they do not use a shrouded blade (blade with the duct roof on the blade).

Those shrouded blades have been an enigma in the aircraft industry as Pratt and GE knew how to make them, but couldn't make the weight versus efficiency balance pay off. RR was doing something different that worked!    But with a higher Mach # booster compressor, shrouded blades would have been tough. I do not think RR will go back.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 76):
Having test aircraft flying with Li-Ion batteries presumably supports the option of reverting to Li-Ion at a later date, once technical uncertainties become resolved.

As much as I prefer the Li-Ion technology, it is a better business decision for Airbus to go NiCad for now. Later on, as you note, they could switch and should have little trouble putting in smaller lighter batteries. But that forces Boeing to pay for the R&D/certification.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 89, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 51034 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 87):
MSN1 today:

The most honorable senator is covering some vital parts of our aeroplane but what one can see is:

- all areo surfaces seems to be there now (slats, droop-nose, spoilers, HTP, VTP etc).

- what is still missing is the wing fairing and engines. Once the systems test are complete they should put on the wing fairing and then go outside for fuel system test at station 18.

- Then painting and after that final checks and fitting in hangar A50

- engines should be hanged in the last high value station A50 if things go to the production flow (it should be hangar 50 stations from the A330 line (there are 4 of them) but those are full, the 333 and 332 is still selling and A is now building new A50 halls for A350). We will see when they hand the engines but it should not be far away, they are in TLS now.


The next thing we want to see is the fuselage join of MSN003, here how the front fuselage looked when it was at preFAL at St Nazaire. Quite a bit of stuff to fit before it goes to FAL:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/A350frontsection_zpsdbfd45af.jpg



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 90, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 50592 times:

First winglet is on!

http://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/539279_615042331845388_1332537666_n.jpg

Quote:
Who’s excited for the A350 XWB? We’ve now installed the winglets on the first flight-test aircraft, revealing for the first time the full shape of the 32-metre A350 XWB wing!



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 258 posts, RR: 23
Reply 91, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 50450 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
First winglet is on!

The two of them actually!

Be prepared for some spotting soon.

 



No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 92, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 50412 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 89):

Ferpe,
The last photo is from MSN1 or 3 ? what's your source ?


User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 50441 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):

Ahh you beat me to it! Just posted it, but then my internet went out so it didnt post   



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1586 posts, RR: 7
Reply 94, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 50410 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
First winglet is on!

It looks awesome!!

It has been said over- and over again, but I think I speak for the big group of leechers following this thread; ferpe, KarelXWB, lightsaber, astuteman and all the other knowledgeable contributors; thank you very very much for one of the most informing and educational threads on A.net!

And please; don't stop!! 



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 95, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 50318 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
First winglet is on!

If anything should be called a "Sharklet" it should be these, the A320 variant is tame in comparison. Beautiful    .

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 92):
Ferpe,
The last photo is from MSN1 or 3 ? what's your source ?

It is actually MSN001 I think, the source was a tourist information page about St Nazaire (was browsing Google images with MSN1  as a change ). I just wanted to show what goes into one of these pre-equipping stations, the MSN003 structure was delivered from Spirit in Q4 but that does not mean the section comes to FAL until it is mated with the center wingbox-wheel well and then stuffed   .



Non French in France
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 96, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 50274 times:

Thank
Next Airbus "Leak" must be MSN3 ... I hope

For engines, It'a a no brainer I think ... RR shouting that they are in TLS and EASA having them certified


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 97, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 50141 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 89):
- what is still missing is the wing fairing and engines. Once the systems test are complete they should put on the wing fairing and then go outside for fuel system test at station 18.

- Then painting and after that final checks and fitting in hangar A50

Hi ferpe,

This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0jlu0ghNIg shows the engines being attached after painting. I have two questions:

- Does this mean it's not possible to paint the engines (like the 787) due performance reasons?

- If so, why attaching the engines after the paint job? The A330 / A380 / 787 etc all go inside the paint bay with engines attached.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 98, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 49964 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 97):
Does this mean it's not possible to paint the engines (like the 787) due performance reasons?

We discussed this up-thread. The nacelles can be painted before the frame and the reason for hanging the engines late are probably value related, A also install some high value cabin equipment at station A50 after painting. Perhaps Knoxibus knows the real answer, we (Kanban et al ) just speculated then  .



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 99, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 49884 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 98):
We discussed this up-thread.

Thanks, I overlooked that information.

[Edited 2013-02-19 08:27:04]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinebigsmile From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 164 posts, RR: 4
Reply 100, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 49573 times:

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 91):

Be prepared for some spotting soon.


I believe Friday is a good day to go spotting  


User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1586 posts, RR: 7
Reply 101, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week ago) and read 49469 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 97):
This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0jlu0ghNIg shows the engines being attached after painting. I have two questions:

Great video.

Can anybody sheld some light on the reason the sequence of the stations is 59 > 50 > 40 > 30 > 18 > P > 20?



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 102, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week ago) and read 49700 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 101):
Can anybody shed some light on the reason the sequence of the stations is 59 > 50 > 40 > 30 > 18 > P > 20?

It was also debated up-thread, we think it was because the old station system (all the way back to SNIAS/Aerospatial, forerunner of todays TLS FAL) named the production stations on how long they were from the exit door of the FAL. After the Painting there was in an earlier version of the production video the merging of the old A330/340 production halls which are called A50 (for the building I presume), now apparently it will be called Station 20 (new buildings) for some reason.

It is indeed confusing and must have historical roots.



Non French in France
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 103, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 49628 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 102):
It was also debated up-thread

With the risk you shoot me ... I've compared the picture of MSN1 on February 1 with the picture of today and I noticed the red door covers are gone:





Here is a close-up of such a cover:

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1343891103_A350_XWB_MSN1_powered_up.jpg

What is the purpose of those covers, why are they red? The red color usually means danger, has it something to do with electricity?



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1595 posts, RR: 2
Reply 104, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 48750 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
What is the purpose of those covers, why are they red? The red color usually means danger, has it something to do with electricity?

Probably to avoid damage while tools/furnishings/equipment are being moved around the doors.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 105, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 48733 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
With the risk you shoot me ...

No one gets shot around here and it's a very good question as well ! 
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
I noticed the red door covers are gone:

As knoxibus and bidsmile hints, it is shortly from moving the bird to stations 18 for fuel and pressurization tests etc. I think these covers signals the frame is under power and that test are ongoing, now they seem to be finished with the station 30 tests and fits the last items like winglets and wing fairing my guess...and then roll her over to station 18. Exciting!

[Edited 2013-02-19 21:58:44]


Non French in France
User currently offlinepacksonflight From Iceland, joined Jan 2010, 379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 48348 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
What is the purpose of those covers, why are they red? The red color usually means danger, has it something to do with electricity?

I guess it is red as "remove before flight" item like pitot cover.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 107, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 48415 times:

Thanks everyone!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 105):
and then roll her over to station 18. Exciting!
It's starting to look like the rumoured roll-out date in April is becoming reality. Fingers crossed of course.

[Edited 2013-02-20 00:30:45]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 108, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 48400 times:

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 106):

Sounds good for me
You can't move the airplane with open doors
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-r_4px-X7Uh...353674420_A350_XWB_static_test.jpg
So if red covers are off ... it will soon roll out of its current bay

And if I read right above, it's for Friday ? (with ou without engines ?)


User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 109, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 48408 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 90):
First winglet is on!

Wow, the winglet looks absolutely fantastic from that angle... looking forward to more pics. Bring on the roll-out!


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 110, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 48376 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 108):
And if I read right above, it's for Friday ? (with ou without engines ?)

That's how I read it too  First station 18 for outdoor tests with ground power, then painting and engine attachment.

[Edited 2013-02-20 00:41:07]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 258 posts, RR: 23
Reply 111, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 48375 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 102):
called A50 (for the building I presume), now apparently it will be called Station 20 (new buildings) for some reason.

I think you mix up building names and stations, that's why.

While I will try to only use info already available on the net, just to make it clear, the flow would be in the M50 FAL building:
Station 50 (fuselage join up+cabin) => station 40 (wing join-up + cabin) => station 30 (equipment, system tests and cabin completion)

Then outdoor => station 18 (fuel)
Then in the A330/A340 cabin FAL => final cabin and engines before going to the flight line.

This is very similar to the A330/A340 but with more upstream work.

Now the A50 building, being built, I think is to increase the number of stations 30. But I think there might be some changes to that.

Quoting bigsmile (Reply 100):
I believe Friday is a good day to go spotting

  



No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 112, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 48375 times:

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 111):

Quoting bigsmile (Reply 100):
I believe Friday is a good day to go spotting



Flute
Sorry
Damned


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 113, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 48463 times:

MSN003 fuselage join completed!

Quote:
Fuselage sections for the third #A350XWB test aircraft have been joined at our Final Assembly Line in Toulouse!
http://twitter.com/Airbus/status/304156393940860928

[Edited 2013-02-20 01:26:09]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 114, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 48436 times:

MSN003 parts in station 59:

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1361303541_A350XWB-MSN3-assembly-startup2.jpg

Joining the parts:

Quote:
Build-up of the third A350 XWB commenced at this next-generation jetliner’s Toulouse, France final assembly line, where its three fuselage sections were joined



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1586 posts, RR: 7
Reply 115, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 48341 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 102):
It was also debated up-thread,

Woops, didn't catch that, sorry Ferpe!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 113):
MSN003 body join completed!

        



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 116, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 48358 times:

Ferpe will not be happy

It's only low resolution pics, so he can't ding inside the fuselage to hunt improvements  


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4704 posts, RR: 38
Reply 117, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 48326 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 94):
It looks awesome!!

It sure does. Great picture!  .

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 94):
It has been said over- and over again, but I think I speak for the big group of leechers following this thread; ferpe, KarelXWB, lightsaber, astuteman and all the other knowledgeable contributors; thank you very very much for one of the most informing and educational threads on A.net!

I second that. This thread is fantastic and is an example of what Airliners.net such a great website to be on.  .

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
What is the purpose of those covers, why are they red? The red color usually means danger, has it something to do with electricity?

Maybe it is covered in red since it might be a moving part where people working on the plane must pay attention to?

What strikes me is how wide the door opening is. That will make an easy access to the plane or to the gateway much easier.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 118, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 48174 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 117):
he can't ding inside the fuselage to hunt improvements

You are sooooo right       



Non French in France
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 119, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 48117 times:

I was planning the same  

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 120, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 48004 times:

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 117):
It's only low resolution pics, so he can't ding inside the fuselage to hunt improvements
Quoting ferpe (Reply 119):
You are sooooo right

Airbus is watching this thread, a high-res picture is now available at http://www.airbus.com/galleries/photo-gallery/  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 611 posts, RR: 8
Reply 121, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 47734 times:

Fine !

We're watching Airbus
Airbus watches us

Everything's fine


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 76
Reply 122, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 46678 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

There is a bit of a quiet time (before another flurry as we're so close to the rollout ).
I spent my afternoon and my all evening off reading all this series of threads... I then realised that it's been going on for 16 months and some 1700 posts...
The glaring obviousness is that we have here in real time the physical birth of an airliner, from single compponents to assembly and testing.
It's the equivalent of a very well informed book written by a team of engineers / technicians + the much valued apport from aviation fanatics, all providing an incredible amount of information research into all sorts of documents, articles, manufacturers' specifications... The occasional troll is even part of the whole injterest as it (a troll is a beast  ) provides some entertainment in the very serious project.
Truly a gigantic achievement and a fascinating endeavour.
The only items I regret are those embedded pics or documents that are no longer available (?), in particular, because it annoyed me, CM's graphs... Could someone repost them ?

I can't name everybody, so I'll just say congratulations and thank you to all Ferpe's team.

PS : I hope Boeing solves the battery problem very soon, so that we'll see CM and Tom back amongst us, as I believe they are fully busy with their job.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 123, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 46012 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 122):
I hope Boeing solves the battery problem very soon, so that we'll see CM and Tom back amongst us, as I believe they are fully busy with their job.

Thanks for the retrospect. As you say we want the 787 to fly ASAP, for two good reasons  :

- good for Boeing and the airline industry

- we get CM and Tom back, they are missed

  



Non French in France
User currently offlineabba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1329 posts, RR: 2
Reply 124, posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 45721 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 122):
Truly a gigantic achievement and a fascinating endeavour


THE most interesting threat on A-net ever!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 123):
we get CM and Tom back, they are missed


Indeed they are!


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 125, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 44745 times:

A little bit more information about MSN003: the fuselage join-up took place in station 50B which had a higher readiness level thanks to debugging that followed the initial two jetliners’ (MSN5000 & MSN001) assembly in station 50A.

http://oi50.tinypic.com/2cwrcp4.jpg

Source http://www.bloga350.blogspot.nl/



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 126, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 43814 times:

Pratt & Whitney Said to Study Airbus A350 Engine to Rival Rolls


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4704 posts, RR: 38
Reply 127, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 43873 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 126):
Pratt & Whitney Said to Study Airbus A350 Engine to Rival Rolls

That could be an interesting development. But they are quite late to arrive at the party.


User currently onlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2366 posts, RR: 11
Reply 128, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 43068 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 127):
But they are quite late to arrive at the party

. . . combined with

Quoting www.bloomberg.com:
Rolls has won exclusive rights from Airbus to offer the TrentXWB on the A350-1000, the largest model, while its position on the -900, the first and most popular version, and on the smaller -800, can be challenged.

. . . could indicate that P&W are looking seriously at A389 territory for their next step: (Wide-Body) WB-GTF. Application of such an engine on the lower powered models of the A350 may be a natural spin-off.

This may also line up pretty well with P&W planning, as they are currently heavily tied up in getting four GTF models in the air. In a couple of years time, they may have more resources on their hands for a WB-GTF, with EIS around 2020 - 2022.

The 351 remains locked by RR exclusivity, but I don’t think P&W would like to jump into the 100,000 lbs class with their GTF; 70k – 80k would do just nicely!

PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlinesf260 From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 42839 times:

Quoting PW100 (Reply 128):

I was just thinking this earlier on: if GE and P&W extend their EA joint venture with a sort of "GEnx90 GTF", they might produce a hell of an engine (family) for the A350-800/900 & A380 (lower end) and 777X (higher end). They can offer some serious competition to RR and even please both manufacturers without shooting themselves in their foot.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 130, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 42272 times:

Quoting sf260 (Reply 129):
I was just thinking this earlier on: if GE and P&W extend their EA joint venture with a sort of "GEnx90 GTF"

While it is logical I am not sure PW is 100% happy with the limitations that EA has had. They signed the agreement for a 70-80klbf engine for 4 holers but has according to the grapewine tried to offer this fine engine also to 2 hole programs such as A350. GE has blocked that as they have the GEnx in the same space.

If PW wants to now enter this space which holds applications for A380, A350 and possibly a further stretched 7810 weight wise I think they want to be free of any GE influence. GE can not have taken the latest losses in the 20klbf market lightly (EMB) and want to make PWs life as difficult as possible IMO in the modern 60k+ market which they control together with RR.



Non French in France
User currently offlineAngMoh From Singapore, joined Nov 2011, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 41893 times:

Quoting bigsmile (Reply 100):
I believe Friday is a good day to go spotting  

Any success spotting last Friday?


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1561 posts, RR: 3
Reply 132, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 41548 times:

Quoting sf260 (Reply 129):
I was just thinking this earlier on: if GE and P&W extend their EA joint venture with a sort of "GEnx90 GTF",

Any extension onto the A350 would need EU agreement, the EA JV is limited to 4 engined aircraft.

The first availible slot for a PW engine would be in the 2020 timeframe, and moving further away, is any airline likely to comit to a 84k GTF that far ahead?



BV
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 133, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 41477 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 117):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 103):
What is the purpose of those covers, why are they red? The red color usually means danger, has it something to do with electricity?

Maybe it is covered in red since it might be a moving part where people working on the plane must pay attention to?

You don't want anyone or anything to bump into these doors - they are 6-digit dollar items. Standrd color for all kinds of protective gear for airplanes and engines on ground.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3736 posts, RR: 11
Reply 134, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 41283 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 130):
If PW wants to now enter this space which holds applications for A380, A350 and possibly a further stretched 7810 weight wise I think they want to be free of any GE influence.

Undoubtedly. Any interesting and competitive engine in that thrust range will be a GTF, and I doubt they'll want to share much of that tech with GE or anybody.

The GTF will likely make it onto WBs, the question is when and on which one. Retrofits on future variants of the A350 or A380 (781?) seem indeed probable.

I can't wait to see how the smaller version does in real life ops.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineflyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 571 posts, RR: 3
Reply 135, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 41134 times:

If I read the blomberg article right, Air France would be interested and could be first partner.
And it could raise interest of Airbus for the A350 at LH, because around 2020 is probably exactly the time LH may need them and with a brand new engine they may get the most efficient plane, along with updated A389s in 2021 (my crystal ball just indicates)
Also, the same A350 development would give the A380 line another step for future versions, be it the A388 or a new A389.
Given the potential volumes, it is attractive for both: Airbus and Pratt.

Regards

Flyglobal

[Edited 2013-02-24 07:44:04]

User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1561 posts, RR: 3
Reply 136, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 40434 times:

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 135):
If I read the blomberg article right, Air France would be interested and could be first partner.

Air France may just be looking for leverage to get RR to allow them to open a TXWB MRO operation.



BV
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4704 posts, RR: 38
Reply 137, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 40062 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 136):
Air France may just be looking for leverage to get RR to allow them to open a TXWB MRO operation.

The AF-KLM A350-order is according to rumors very close to the finish line. What and how the parties have agreed upon on the engines is still a secret. But hopefully soon we will know more.  .


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6868 posts, RR: 63
Reply 138, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 39870 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 137):
The AF-KLM A350-order is according to rumors very close to the finish line. What and how the parties have agreed upon on the engines is still a secret. But hopefully soon we will know more.

Along with an AFKL order for Trent 1000s for their 787s.   


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 139, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 39668 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 137):
The AF-KLM A350-order is according to rumors very close to the finish line. What and how the parties have agreed upon on the engines is still a secret. But hopefully soon we will know more.

Unfortunately the expected date of signing the contract has been changed from Q1 2013 to "during 2013".

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...sults-airbus-idUSBRE91L09W20130222

[Edited 2013-02-25 03:29:37]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineflyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 571 posts, RR: 3
Reply 140, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 39543 times:

Quoting this);" class="badspelling">KarelXWB (Reply 139):
Unfortunately the expected signing has been changed from "Q1 2013" to "during 2013".

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...this);" class="badspelling">sults-airbus-idUSBRE91L09W20130222




First Airbus isn't really Air France's first candidate 'to fall in love with', rather an emotionless relationship and in this case they even have to do in this);" class="badspelling">cinjunction with RR.THis has a smell of arranged marriage to me and so the partners deal with each other. (my crystal ball reads)

Lets see how this turns out.

Regards

Flyglobal


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 141, posted (1 year 5 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 39007 times:

Airbus is looking to add another assembly line.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...s-787-woes-fail-to-dent-sales.html



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 258 posts, RR: 23
Reply 142, posted (1 year 5 months 8 hours ago) and read 38015 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

All right, the spotting can start, the beast is out!


No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4704 posts, RR: 38
Reply 143, posted (1 year 5 months 8 hours ago) and read 38023 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 142):

All right, the spotting can start, the beast is out!

That is great news. Hope to see some pictures soon.  


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 144, posted (1 year 5 months 8 hours ago) and read 37958 times:

Can anyone point out on Google Maps where to find 'station 18' ?

http://oi47.tinypic.com/1zlzzo6.jpg



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 258 posts, RR: 23
Reply 145, posted (1 year 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 37669 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Here it is, I hope the link works:

http://goo.gl/maps/1Vu8W

It is quite in a different size league re. the height next to the A330s currently there.



No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 146, posted (1 year 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 37453 times:

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 145):
Here it is, I hope the link works:

Aha, so that is "station 18". Thanks.

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 145):
It is quite in a different size league re. the height next to the A330s currently there.

What are you waiting for, go grab your camera!  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineknoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 258 posts, RR: 23
Reply 147, posted (1 year 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 37226 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I was at the "outting" this morning for the official pictures in front of the aircraft, why grab a camera when one professional photographer takes a picture of me while I'm standing 2 meters in front of the aircraft  ?

Sorry to brag about it, but it was quite an event for all of us present.



No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 148, posted (1 year 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 37188 times:

Quote:
I was at the "outting" this morning for the official pictures in front of the aircraft, why grab a camera when one professional photographer takes a picture of me while I'm standing 2 meters in front of the aircraft

Now the Airbus social media department needs to upload those pictures 
Quoting knoxibus (Reply 147):
Sorry to brag about it, but it was quite an event for all of us present.

No need to feel sorry, we all are excited!  



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1561 posts, RR: 3
Reply 149, posted (1 year 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 37033 times:

Quoting knoxibus (Reply 147):

I was at the "outting" this morning for the official pictures in front of the aircraft, why grab a camera when one professional photographer takes a picture of me while I'm standing 2 meters in front of the aircraft ?

Sorry to brag about it, but it was quite an event for all of us present.

Brag away, just no making bunny signs behind peoples heads  



BV
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 150, posted (1 year 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 36846 times:

BAM!

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1361889296_A350_XWB_Roll_out_MSN1Feb_2013.jpg



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 151, posted (1 year 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 36753 times:

And the press release:

Quote:
The first A350 XWB – MSN001 – now showing its completed wings, has moved to its next phase of ground testing, from Roger Béteille A350 XWB FAL “Station 30” to the Clément Ader area “Station 18” in Toulouse. The aircraft is structurally complete and shows the installed winglets, belly fairing panels, main landing gear doors.

The aircraft has recently completed successfully a series of indoor ground tests as well as stability tests on ‘movable’ elements such as rudder, elevators, ailerons and wing spoilers and landing gears extraction/retraction. The next steps which will take place outdoors at the Station 18 ground test station will include three planned families of tests: Fuel tanks testing – including levels, flows, sealing and internal fuel transfer functions; pressure testing of the fuselage; and radio equipment testing.

A high-res picture can be found at http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pr...plete-emerges-for-outdoor-testing/

[Edited 2013-02-26 08:15:33]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1561 posts, RR: 3
Reply 152, posted (1 year 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 36833 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 151):
A high-res picture can be found at

The high res shows her traveling flaps down spoilers up, hydraulics must be pressurized as nose gear door is shut.



BV
User currently offlineabba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1329 posts, RR: 2
Reply 153, posted (1 year 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 36779 times:

What a babe!

And just look at these huge and elegant wings! The impression completely changed when the winglets came on. Now we only need to see her properly dressed in the final paint scheme!


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12389 posts, RR: 47
Reply 154, posted (1 year 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 36743 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Wow, and I thought the A330 looked good!   

Quoting abba (Reply 153):
Now we only need to see her properly dressed in the final paint scheme!

I think they may need to hang a pair of stonking Rollers under the wings as well!   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 155, posted (1 year 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 36659 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 150):

Thanks for the picture. Its finally starting to take shape   Just needs some engines and some paint!



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 156, posted (1 year 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 36493 times:

Nice, and a little earlier then one would have thought. Is the plan good enough for flight before le Bourget???


The nose looked a little funny before, now with this stance it looks very business like, almost grim.

"Aaargh, you old loosers get out of my way    "

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/MSN1goestoS18_zpse5a8f4d0.jpg

[Edited 2013-02-26 09:25:57]


Non French in France
User currently offlineJD747 From Spain, joined Nov 2006, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 157, posted (1 year 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 36379 times:

I think it's going to be a great looking airplane !!


Juan D.
User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1362 posts, RR: 0
Reply 158, posted (1 year 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 36425 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 150):

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1361889296_A350_XWB_Roll_out_MSN1Feb_2013.jpg

Now that's what I call a good looking airplane. I was worried that the new cockpit design spoils her looks but - at least from that angle - it's a gorgeous bird  .



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlinerwood89 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2012, 6 posts, RR: 0
Reply 159, posted (1 year 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 36307 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 150):
BAM!

Well hello! I cannot wait to see it with the Trent XWB's hanging and a lick of paint. I really hope Airbus have learnt lessons and this aircraft can keep to schedule (current   ).


User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 160, posted (1 year 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 36305 times:

Is it just the perspective or are the wings LARGE? And winglets like razorblades!   

Gimme some powerplants and the dark side of the force has a new business jet!   

Love it!!



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 161, posted (1 year 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 36198 times:

Parked between the A330's:


(uploaded by Flox Papa)

[Edited 2013-02-26 10:00:15]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 162, posted (1 year 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 35895 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 161):
(uploaded by Flox Papa)


Seems the call-sign is set, picture says: F-WXWB   

time to program it into flightradar24 soon to follow the gauntlet testing    .



Non French in France
User currently offlineBogi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 163, posted (1 year 5 months ago) and read 35793 times:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4638/a350xwbrolloutmsn1feb20.jpg
very nice


User currently offlineaffirmative From France, joined Jul 2009, 350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 164, posted (1 year 5 months ago) and read 35675 times:

WOW! She is absolutely stunning. A bit menacing, almost frowning.. Love it!

Two thing really strikes me though. The distance between the wheels of the main gear bogey. Wouldn't that create an issue with stowing it? Quite impressive gear arrangement anyway.

Second, the wing profile in the root of the wing seems really extreme. Just after the leading edge the lower part of the wing at the root end seems almost convex. Also the leading edge of the wing/fairing has quite of an angle compared to other planes. Supercritical just got a new poster lady..  

On a side note; Thank you all Ferpe, Knoxibus, CM and all I have forgotten for this brilliant thread. Not one day passes without me checking in.

Now I just need to find a position putting me in the business end of this lady.

Happy landings all!



I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10706 posts, RR: 31
Reply 165, posted (1 year 5 months ago) and read 35416 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 156):
Nice, and a little earlier then one would have thought. Is the plan good enough for flight before le Bourget???

The ground tests should not last long. To me it looks like MSN001 will meet the rumoured roll out date in April.

But there is still a lot of work to be done before first flight. Static testing have not yet begun for example.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 156):
"Aaargh, you old loosers get out of my way"


 Big grin

[Edited 2013-02-26 11:20:58]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 166, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 35405 times:

Couple more pics:

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1361900207_A350_XWB_roll_out_MSN1_.jpg

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/photogallery/big/800x600_1361900210_A350_XWB_roll_out_MSN1.jpg

Looking great, love those wings and look forward to seeing her painted up with engines.


User currently onlinekmz From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 160 posts, RR: 2
Reply 167, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 35103 times:

the inner leading edge of the wings is pretty sharp...i haven't seen such a profile yet.








[Edited 2013-02-26 12:17:11]
Big version: Width: 1280 Height: 726 File size: 241kb


[Edited 2013-02-26 12:21:45]

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 168, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 35060 times:

Quoting kmz (Reply 167):
the inner leading edge of the wings is pretty sharp...i haven't seen such a profile yet.

Nice observation and magnifications, I did another observation:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_bucket/MSN1goestoS18_2_zpse082372e.jpg

Both being very recent designs the aerodynamic shapes of the cockpit chins and wing fairings blends of the 350 and 787 are very different. The 787 is smaller scale but I think the differences are clearly seen, I have marked the areas with red circles on the opposite side.

   The A350 is considerably more sculptured, one has chased local fat in the cross section and thereby to not accelerate an air which is close to M1 anyway.



Non French in France
User currently onlinekmz From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 160 posts, RR: 2
Reply 169, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 34909 times:

we need a side-view picture  

[Edited 2013-02-26 12:44:31]

User currently offlinesturmovik From India, joined May 2007, 509 posts, RR: 0
Reply 170, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 34751 times:

Long time reader of the thread, first time posting here. Thanks everyone for the amazing discussion, it's been a pleasure to read.

Seeing the pics, she looks imposing! Once the engines are hung and she's painted, it would be quite a sight to look at!    The wings/winglets remind me of the elliptical ones fitted on the Citation X.



'What's it doing now?'
User currently onlinekmz From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 160 posts, RR: 2
Reply 171, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 34686 times:

I also wonder if this main landing gear configuration is louder during landing phase than the classic configuration because of the additional beam which is attached to the gear-beam