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Bombardier CSeries Update Part 3  
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 57085 times:

New pics from the FAL posted by BBD

FTV1 is completely assembled (except parts like slats and leading edge)

We can see FTV2 & FTV3 in the background (partially assembled)
http://static.ow.ly/photos/original/1oSFz.jpg
http://ow.ly/i/1oSFz/original

http://static.ow.ly/photos/original/1oSr5.jpg
http://ow.ly/i/1oSr5/original

http://static.ow.ly/photos/original/1oVaz.jpg
http://ow.ly/i/1oVaz/original

271 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekaneporta1 From Greece, joined May 2005, 739 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 57105 times:

From what I hear, FTV1 will be receiving its engines soon and FTV2 its wings. Seems like the assembly is progressing very well without any major issues.

Good job Bombardier.



I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
User currently offlineseahawks7757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 56849 times:

When is the first flight expected to be?

User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5027 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 56673 times:

Wow! That is a good looking airplane. I really like the cockpit windows and shape of the nose. Sexy all the way!


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 56474 times:

You can really tell those winglets were inspired by crj winglets... beautiful bird

User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 56461 times:

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 1):
FTV1 will be receiving its engines soon

Maybe next week.

ftv1 has its landing gear on and is ready to have the engines mounted


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1876 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 56296 times:

The most beautiful narrowbody on the planet. Sorry, A320.


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 613 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 56183 times:

Great news
I'm still amazed how few thread this all now not so evolutionnary and rather revoltionnary airplane generates on this forum !

So now we have : the tail and fuselage for FTV2 and 3 !
Very good


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 56104 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 7):

With all the bad news lately, I think some are a bit gun shy to cheer too loudly lest something goes sideways...but it is great to see progress on the program.

I doubt many will be shocked if the CSeries flies before their summer deadline.



What the...?
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 613 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 56082 times:

Bad news ?
A 6 month delay that surprises nobody
And some suprising orders at the end of 2012...

Not so bad news i think


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 55982 times:

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 9):

Sorry...I meant bad aerospace news in general, not bad CSeries news specifically. Personally, I've been quite pleased and impressed with the progress.



What the...?
User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 613 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 55899 times:

All right !
Good progress I think !


User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1566 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 55882 times:

The choice of AlLi for the tube and 'C' for the wings may well turn out to be an inspired decision. Whilst it has not happened yet, the high density version of the 300 may well attract some of the LCC's I feel. Best of luck to them.

User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11645 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 55863 times:

Good news indeed, it is one fantastic looking aircraft.

Quoting parapente (Reply 12):
Whilst it has not happened yet, the high density version of the 300 may well attract some of the LCC's I feel.

Almost guaranteed, especially if the CS500 is unofficially waved under their noses. There are a lot of current A319/320 operators who are showing interest.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineSLCPilot From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 583 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 55683 times:

I feel guilty for even asking, but here it goes anyway....what type of batteries are intended for use on the C-series?

Cheers!

SLCPilot



I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 55160 times:

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 14):

Ix-nay on the atteries-bay.

[Edited 2013-01-22 09:50:40]


What the...?
User currently onlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 55107 times:

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 14):
what type of batteries are intended for use on the C-series?

I hear they spared no expense and chose the "no self-immolation" option.


User currently offlinewb556 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2011, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 54453 times:

I believe they have gone for a small colony of Russian hampsters with a running wheel / dynamo assembly.

Boeing engineers are apparently studying a higher capacity mk.2 version using chinchillas as a stop gap measure for the 787.

[Edited 2013-01-22 10:46:33]

User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 54271 times:

So I guess the first flight will be in April:

-2 months to wrap up assembly and instrumentation fit-out.
-1 month for all ground testing
-First Flight


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 54086 times:

In all seriousness, this aircraft is shaping up nicely. With the GTF looking to exceed expectations, BBD may have a real winner on their hands here...hopefully once some real data comes in from testing the orders will pick up.

User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 53925 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 10):
Sorry...I meant bad aerospace news in general, not bad CSeries news specifically. Personally, I've been quite pleased and impressed with the progress.

Thanks for the laughs, guys. But I too wonder if Bombardier is now re-checking its battery decisions while keeping an eye on Boeing. Anyone know enough about the C-Series electrical system to make a useful comment?

Since this is a Canadian bird, I expect that circular cage will be big enough for a couple of beavers. For the CS500, it will be a moose.

[Edited 2013-01-22 11:41:29]


Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13017 posts, RR: 100
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 53624 times:
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Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 19):
With the GTF looking to exceed expectations,

What is the latest news? My sources have gone very quiet... Which they should. They were happy before and they're not calling to get drunk (so the news isn't a downside miss), but I haven't heard.

I suspect Embraer was influenced by 'Bombardier related' data.   

Quoting Aviaponcho (Reply 7):
I'm still amazed how few thread this all now not so evolutionnary and rather revoltionnary airplane generates on this forum !

Exactly. This plane's cost per flight will re-invigorate the size category of narrowbodies.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 15):
Ix-nay on the atteries-bay.

  

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 53450 times:

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 14):
I feel guilty for even asking, but here it goes anyway....what type of batteries are intended for use on the C-series?



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineodwyerpw From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 853 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 53218 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 15):
Ix-nay on the atteries-bay.

Awesome. Thanks for the moment of levity.

Not that it is an all important metric, but it looks pretty. It will be nice to see it in operation.



Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 53144 times:

Just a stupid question but I assume this one is the CS100?


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinem1m2 From Canada, joined Dec 2011, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 54100 times:

Why not use a "C" cell? That's funny. So is the thought of seeing a full-size moose run around in a very large hamster wheel!

User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 54025 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
What is the latest news?

I don't have any sources, that's just the general consensus feel I get from what I've read in various places. That and the lack of any bad news, along with the importance of this project to P&W (arguably the make or break product of the company), I expect that their projected performance is very conservative to avoid even small misses.

And as you mentioned, the number of airframes this engine will be on lends a lot of credibility and confidence.


User currently offlinerikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 54843 times:

Proud to see the largest completely indigeous aircraft ever built in Canada coming together! WIth fingers crossed, let's hope the delays are now behind BBD...


AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineBE77 From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 54676 times:

Quoting SLCPilot (Reply 14):
I feel guilty for even asking

And we all agree to convict you.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 20):
I expect that circular cage will be big enough for a couple of beavers. For the CS500, it will be a moose.

I dunno, it's not that big from what I see. It would be a challenge to fit a DHC-2 or a Murphy SR3500 inside even a C500.



Tower, Affirmitive, gear is down and welded
User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 53932 times:

Big thanks to Queb and others for the pics and updates. There's so little information coming out of BBD that it's easy to forget about the C-series amongst the other big news events.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 24):
Just a stupid question but I assume this one is the CS100?

You're correct in your assumption.


User currently offlinerampbro From Canada, joined Nov 2012, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 53494 times:

Has there been any info on first flight(s)?

This would be a worthwhile way to burn some aeroplan points.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 53066 times:

Quoting m1m2 (Reply 25):
That's funny. So is the thought of seeing a full-size moose run around in a very large hamster wheel!

I hear that scheme has been set aside due to CG issues   .

But it'd be great to see the CSeries or EmbNG here for a change.   



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 52438 times:

Engines should be attached Monday and to do that she needs to be moved so i reckon this weekend we should see some pics of her on the landing gear

User currently offlinelollomz From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 52153 times:
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I think it's very beautiful, the winglets remind me the CRJs , the launch customer will be Swiss, am I wrong?

User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 52010 times:

Quoting lollomz (Reply 33):
the launch customer will be Swiss, am I wrong?

the launch customer is unidentified at this time

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...oses-second-as-qatar-retreats.html


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 51847 times:

United Technologies Completes Engine Testing for Bombardier Jet

"United Technologies Corp. UTX +0.41% has completed the testing of its geared-turbofan engine for Bombardier Inc.'s BBD.B.T -0.71% CSeries jetliner, clearing a key hurdle for the fuel-efficient engine and the delayed Canadian jet.

"We have completed all the certification testing—endurance and ice testing. We are moving forward with the paperwork for CSeries technology," Chief Executive Louis Chenevert said in an interview. He said testing was completed over the weekend and that the company expects certification of the engine by regulators in about two weeks."

User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 51786 times:

I forgot the link:

User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 51752 times:

Bombardier dosent use a moving assembly line "where the aircraft is moved" to assemble the c-series?

User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 613 posts, RR: 8
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 51766 times:

Queb you forgot this one

User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 51706 times:

URL are not displayed and "Edit Post" function doesn't work...

User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2618 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 51813 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 32):
Engines should be attached Monday and to do that she needs to be moved so i reckon this weekend we should see some pics of her on the landing gear

Nice. Good to see her coming together, as Bombardier had been more "secretive" on the assembly process than Airbus with the A350.

For comparison: we have seen the A350 MSN1 rolled out on wheels already, and the first TrentXWB for MSN1 was delivered last week, so we're seeing quite parallel final assembly processes on both a/c, with the CSeries just slightly behind, at least as far as photos and press releases go. It will be an interesting "race" to watch (even if they are not racing each other on the marketplace).
There is a nice incentive which is Le Bourget in june. My bet is on both the CSeries and the A350 achieving FF a few weeks before the show (but no show visits yet... except maybe an A350 flyby... plus the revealing of the mysterious CSeries first customer   )


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 41, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 51619 times:

So who wants to venture a guess on when it'll fly?

My guess is end March.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13017 posts, RR: 100
Reply 42, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 51344 times:
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Quoting queb (Reply 35):
and that the company expects certification of the engine by regulators in about two weeks."

Excellent!   

Quoting r2rho (Reply 40):
There is a nice incentive which is Le Bourget in june. My bet is on both the CSeries and the A350 achieving FF a few weeks before the show (but no show visits yet... except maybe an A350 flyby... plus the revealing of the mysterious CSeries first customer

Agreed on everything except I do not think they'll even fly the A350 at the airshow (too much downside risk with little upside).

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineQuantos From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 51048 times:

Looks awesome! I can't wait to see the bird fly 

User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 44, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 50901 times:

It's so nice to have a break from the bad news and controversy and be able to enjoy some positive news for a change. The 787 battery threads have degraded into a schoolyard hair pulling contest
.



What the...?
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 45, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 50848 times:

I'm still crossing fingers that this doesn't turn out to be Bombardier's nightmareliner.

So far, they seem to be doing a lot better than Boeing did. And my BBD stock is reflecting that. It's basically moved sideways.


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6147 posts, RR: 35
Reply 46, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 50905 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 41):
So who wants to venture a guess on when it'll fly?

My guess is end March.

In Davos, Switzerland, Pierre Beaudoin said today to the Canadian Press that he "hopes that its CSeries airliners will take its first flight in June."



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinerobsaw From Canada, joined Dec 2008, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 50896 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 44):
It's so nice to have a break from the bad news and controversy and be able to enjoy some positive news for a change. The 787 battery threads have degraded into a schoolyard hair pulling contest

Obviously the C-series engineers are hiding some potentially deadly design decision ; )

It would be nice to see this design proceed at least nominally on-schedule while meeting its performance targets.


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 48, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 50786 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 46):
In Davos, Switzerland, Pierre Beaudoin said today to the Canadian Press that he "hopes that its CSeries airliners will take its first flight in June."

Interesting. I remember reading somewhere that the fastest Bombardier ever put together a plane was 5 months. I also remember reading that they were having much greater success putting this airplane together than previous programs.

So I wonder what the hold up is.

If we assume that they started final assembly on October 1st, that would mean completion by the end of Feb. Given the pics here, not unreasonable. If we assume a fudge of a month, that means 2 months of ground testing at least before first flight. Anybody have any idea for an aircraft of this size and complexity, if it would actually take 2 months of ground testing?

Then again, Beaudoin could just be parroting the official target and their internals may be quicker (or worse!....i hope not). I don't know if it's possible with flight testing and/or certification (or exemptions) by then. But it would be quite the coup if they could pull off the first CSeries TATL flight to the Paris Air Show.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 49, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 50628 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 48):

There might not be a hold up...they gave themselves an extra six months so they can use as much time as they need. If they get done ahead of schedule, that's great but they are under no pressure to do that.

It would be terrible if the managers publicly predicted an earlier first flight then dropped the ball. My hope is that they get it flying before June but I'd rather they get it right than early...(taking into consideration their 6 month delay).



What the...?
User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2317 posts, RR: 21
Reply 50, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 50409 times:

Does anyone know when the CS300 will begin production? Also pardon my ignorance, but is this A/C designed to compete with the E-190?


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1876 posts, RR: 4
Reply 51, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 50364 times:

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 50):
Also pardon my ignorance, but is this A/C designed to compete with the E-190?

CS-100 competes with E-190. CS-300 competes with A319neo and 737-7



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2803 posts, RR: 59
Reply 52, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 50706 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 48):
If we assume that they started final assembly on October 1st, that would mean completion by the end of Feb. Given the pics here, not unreasonable. If we assume a fudge of a month, that means 2 months of ground testing at least before first flight. Anybody have any idea for an aircraft of this size and complexity, if it would actually take 2 months of ground testing?

The C-series is a less complex aircraft then the A350 but not much, both are conventional bleed FBW aircraft system wise. The A350 FTV1 was structurally AND systemwise 80-90% complete (LG, functioning system, electrics + hydraulics connected and electrics/electronics tested) by Dec 4 as they preequipp the sections at PreFAL. The C-series is done in a conventional way ie ALL the systems are installed at FAL and then tested. What we see now is that they are strucurally where the A350 was late November (rudder surfaces, APU + cone etc still missing), we don't know how much of the systems are installed or missing. The weather radar + radome is missing, that we can see, it was fitted and tested at PreFAL for the A350 as an example.

The A350 has roll out in April and rumored first flight before Le Bourget, the C-series is very likely trailing the 350 even though it is a somewhat more straightforward integration job in the fuselage as the bracketing etc (which very often is the final problem) is done in Al in an Al frame. If the C-series flies before or during the show (in Canada of course ) that is an achievement. If they fly some months after the show it is still very very encouraging for the program, they have then done a stellar job not being the typical 1-2 years behind in this phase like A and B    .



Non French in France
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2618 posts, RR: 1
Reply 53, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 50219 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 48):
it would be quite the coup if they could pull off the first CSeries TATL flight to the Paris Air Show.

Impossible - at that phase of the flight test program they'll be opening up the flight envelope and checking the aero & handling qualities models - long flights & route proving are far away. But it will be a PR coup if they fly in Canada shortly before or during the show.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 49):
There might not be a hold up...they gave themselves an extra six months so they can use as much time as they need.

Indeed, an ifff there are no unexpected "surprises" I see the 6month delay as realistic and reasonable/achievable, maybe slightly beatable if the surprises are positive ones.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 52):
they are strucurally where the A350 was late November (rudder surfaces, APU + cone etc still missing), we don't know how much of the systems are installed or missing.

My initial "feeling" is indeed that the CSeries is lagging behind the A350 and probably doesn't have many systems installed yet. Then again, if it is true that it's getting engines in a week, and normally those come at the end, perhaps more is installed than we think.
(I note once again that this is not a "race" other than from an enthusiast's point of view, but still very interesting to watch & compare the A350 & CSeries coming together in parallel)!

Quoting ferpe (Reply 52):
If the C-series flies before or during the show (in Canada of course ) that is an achievement. If they fly some months after the show it is still very very encouraging for the program, they have then done a stellar job not being the typical 1-2 years behind in this phase like A and B

  


User currently offlineAviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 613 posts, RR: 8
Reply 54, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 50096 times:

Indeed, what I find the most encouraging is that FTV2 and FTV3 are already in FAL... with some fuselage mating done ...


It's not a race between Airbus and Bombardier, but it's nice to see how both manufacturers cope with this final challenging phase.
Don't forget the CIASTA also, and that static test bed should have begin torture tests by now...

So why not a good surprise ?


User currently offlineclemsonaj From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 50037 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 44):
The 787 battery threads have degraded into a schoolyard hair pulling contest

I didn't think there was any degradation. It was that way from the start.


User currently offlinesf260 From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 7 months 8 hours ago) and read 48940 times:

PW1524G certification is finished: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...fication-of-cseries-engine-381693/
Congrats to PW!
Can't wait to see the bird fly  


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6147 posts, RR: 35
Reply 57, posted (1 year 7 months 4 hours ago) and read 48461 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 48):
Then again, Beaudoin could just be parroting the official target

I think that BBD will be more conservative in announcing targets after insisting in late Oct that first flight would still happen by end of year.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 51):
CS-100 competes with E-190

You may have meant to post the E195 as it is closer in size..

Quoting r2rho (Reply 53):

Indeed, an ifff there are no unexpected "surprises" I see the 6month delay as realistic and reasonable/achievable, maybe slightly beatable if the surprises are positive ones.

It is not the "known unknowens" (such as the issues that led to the delay) but the "unknown unknonwens" that potentially will really bite them. There are a lot of "firsts" for BBD with the CSeries so they are on treading on uncharted territory in a few areas of the program... some of which they have limited control over (e.g. FBW).



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 47660 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 37):

Bombardier dosent use a moving assembly line "where the aircraft is moved" to assemble the c-series?

not yet but look for it soon

so both engines are on and she's on the landing gear!


User currently offlinekaneporta1 From Greece, joined May 2005, 739 posts, RR: 12
Reply 59, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 47562 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 58):
not yet but look for it soon

so both engines are on and she's on the landing gear!

Is Mirabel set up for a moving line?
And are the engines already on? I thought it was going to be soon but not this soon!

What does FTV2 look like?

[Edited 2013-02-01 18:25:28]


I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8491 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 47540 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 52):
If they fly some months after the show it is still very very encouraging for the program, they have then done a stellar job not being the typical 1-2 years behind in this phase like A and B

Could this be because smaller is better? With fewer project managers, fewer engineering sites etc, they seem to be in better control of the overall project.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 61, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 47389 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 60):
Could this be because smaller is better?

It may have something to do with Bombardier's experience with outsourcing. They've been dealing with primary structures from N.Ireland, Mexico, USA, China and other parts hither and yon forever. They've also been planning the CSeries forever and they did give themselves a pretty realistic timeline. Going with a metal fuselage probably didn't hurt either.

Balancing that is this is their most complex aircraft project by far, their first use of Al-Li, first composite wing (though they are getting composite experience with the Lear 85), first full fly by wire controls, first jet with on wing engines and first plane out of the box with the GTF.

They are not out of the woods yet but most of the news seems to be encouraging.



What the...?
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1876 posts, RR: 4
Reply 62, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 47193 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 57):
Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 51):
CS-100 competes with E-190

You may have meant to post the E195 as it is closer in size..

I forgot to add -200 at the end.   



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlinemiller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 63, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 46838 times:

Just found out today that the CSeries uses only NiCad batteries, not Lithium-Ion. Safe bet by Bombardier!

User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 64, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 46744 times:

Gotta love those high resolution images from the final assembly line. This is the stuff people were fired for not too long ago.  

Look at the horizontal splice just below the window belt, between the wing and the nose section in the second image from the top. Is that just a variation in color or is that panel botched?


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13017 posts, RR: 100
Reply 65, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 46351 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 61):
and first plane out of the box with the GTF.

That they're getting quite a bit of help from UTC! Have been actually since at least 1999...


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6147 posts, RR: 35
Reply 66, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 46230 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 61):
Balancing that is

... and that BBD has been late on all their programs, particularly when they were 2nd and/or 3rd stretches of existing models.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 45174 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 61):
encouraging

yip
ftv2 should have wings by next week and ftv3 barrel is coming together

bbd's first engine on wing plane is getting close!!!


User currently onlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1914 posts, RR: 1
Reply 68, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 45238 times:

Hopefully some orders for the CSeries will come from the US... I'm not a fan of sidesticks, but when I become a pilot, I can make an exception  


Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 69, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 45125 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 67):
yip
ftv2 should have wings by next week and ftv3 barrel is coming together

bbd's first engine on wing plane is getting close!!!

I know I'm getting greedy but more pics would be nice.



What the...?
User currently onlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 70, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 44790 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 61):
It may have something to do with Bombardier's experience with outsourcing.

The Seattle Times Sunday story:
http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...eingoutsourcingxml.html?prmid=4939
... makes it somewhat clear that it was more of an issue of managing sub-subs. They outsourced design and responsibility, and when it comes to owning a problem like the batteries, the issue is they don't fully own the cause, but they fully own the issue.

So if Bombardier still designs through the subs, ie controlling most aspects of the design, then it hasn't gone as whole-hog into outsourcing as Boeing.


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 44250 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 69):
I know I'm getting greedy but more pics would be nice.

i'm sure you can find them on the internet  

ftv2 will have wings in the next few days

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 70):
then it hasn't gone as whole-hog into outsourcing as Boeing.

boeing brought back a lot of outsourcing by buying out subs.

bbd are working in parallel with subs to bring them up to speed


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 72, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 43498 times:

on its wheels

http://i70.servimg.com/u/f70/17/03/84/59/cserie10.jpg
http://i70.servimg.com/u/f70/17/03/84/59/cserie11.jpg
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/598/cseries003.jpg


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 73, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 43294 times:

Looks pretty naked, still a lot of work to do.

Thanks for sharing.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 74, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 43306 times:

pictures were taken last January 26

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 75, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 43255 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 74):
pictures were taken last January 26

I see. She would get her engines on January 28, can't wait to see some pictures of it.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2803 posts, RR: 59
Reply 76, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 43192 times:

They are making steady progress, let's hope it continues and that they can show the big guys how to run a project, would be sweet. All the best BB    .


Non French in France
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 613 posts, RR: 8
Reply 77, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 43362 times:

Tks queb
Big wheels indeed... For big engines.


User currently offlinerikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 78, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 42028 times:

Queb....

Any more info on the engine install yet?



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 41868 times:

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 78):
Any more info on the engine install yet?

+1 It should be completed now, if the above dates are correct, right? I'm anxious to see the the pictures!   


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13017 posts, RR: 100
Reply 80, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 41802 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 73):

Looks pretty naked, still a lot of work to do.

Without control surfaces, that is one fugly glider.  

This makes me wonder how much of the internal work, such as wiring, is complete? Any status updates?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2178 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 41638 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

How come there are no heavy weights where the engines normally are? On pics of other aircraft without engines there are often huge weights to keep the wings from bending too much upwards.

Interesting to see how big the CS100 really is, it must be about the length of a B737-700 or A319...



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 82, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 41230 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 74):

Wow...3 1/2 weeks ago...a lot must have been bolted on since then. The trend of more good news and no bad news is encouraging.

Let's get this puppy into the air.



What the...?
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 83, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 40900 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 81):
How come there are no heavy weights where the engines normally are? On pics of other aircraft without engines there are often huge weights to keep the wings from bending too much upwards.

I'd assume that with little or no interior components installed (seats, overhead bins, water in various tanks, etc. ), there's a lot less weight to counterbalance across the landing gear, hence no specific need for weights on the wing at this point.



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlinemurf From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 40483 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 81):
How come there are no heavy weights where the engines normally are? On pics of other aircraft without engines there are often huge weights to keep the wings from bending too much upwards

There is a weight which can be seen hanging from what I would guess is the front jacking point Fwd of the Fwd cargo cutout...not as big as what's typically seen hanging from pylons but considering the moment arm is further from CG it wouldn't have to be as heavy.


User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 40529 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 81):
Interesting to see how big the CS100 really is, it must be about the length of a B737-700 or A319...

Indeed. The CS-100 is 34.9m, slightly longer than an A319, while the -300 is 38m, slightly longer than the A320 (per Wiki). The C-series family is definitely well-proportioned IMO, and I'm sure they'll be easy on the eyes!


User currently offlinesebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 86, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 40122 times:

Ilyushin confirms its order, and PW's geared turbofan has been certified by Transport Canada

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ier-cseries-planes/article8900900/

A Russian leasing company has agreed to purchase up to 42 Bombardier Inc. CSeries aircraft in a potential $3.42-billion deal, the aircraft manufacturer announced Wednesday, shortly after it disclosed Transport Canada has certified the plane’s Pratt & Whitney engine.

Ilyushin Finance Co. seeks to acquire 32 of the larger CS300 planes at a list price of about $2.56-billion (U.S.), and has options for 10 additional planes, making it one of the largest CSeries orders to date.

The transaction signed Wednesday at Bombardier’s final assembly facility in Mirabel, Que., follows a letter of intent signed in 2011 for 30 CSeries planes. The agreement is subject to approval by Ilyushin’s shareholders.

The company’s director general said the aircraft leasing world is rapidly changing as airlines seek to replace older, less efficient planes because of high fuel costs and environmental concerns.

“The CSeries aircraft offers transcontinental range, superior field and runway performance, and a superb cabin that will bring air transport into the 21st century,” Alexander Rubtsov said in a news release.

The CSeries order is Ilyushin’s first for a large, non-Russian plane and will join the firm’s Russian Superjets and MC-21 aircraft.

The head of Bombardier’s commercial aircraft group called the agreement a “landmark opportunity” for the company and the new plane.

“The CSeries aircraft was tailor-made for operation in this vast region and has the potential to offer a step-change in air travel in Russia and throughout the Commonwealth of Independent States,” Mike Arcamone stated a day before Bombardier discloses its fourth-quarter and 2012 results Thursday.

There are currently 95 Bombardier CRJ regional jets and turboprops in service or on order in Russia and the CIS. Bombardier said it is also exploring opportunities for its Q400, with reports saying it may assemble some of these planes in Russia.

As of Dec. 31, Bombardier had booked orders and commitments for 382 CSeries aircraft that include firm orders for 148 CSeries airliners.

Earlier Wednesday, Bombardier and Pratt & Whitney Co. Inc. announced that Transport Canada had certified Pratt & Whitney’s geared turbofan engine that will power the CSeries.

The U.S.-based engine manufacturer – a division of United Technologies Corp. has conducted more than 4,000 hours of testing since September, 2010, including 340 hours of flight testing on a Boeing 747 flight test airplane.

Bombardier CSeries general manager Rob Dewar said the engine’s certification is a “significant milestone and critical step” leading to the aircraft’s first flight test, which has been delayed six months until some time before June.

“We are very pleased with the engine’s performance and the overall, steady progress of the CSeries aircraft program,” he said in a news release.

He said Bombardier has achieved several key milestones over the past few months, accepted two engine propulsion systems and is completing final assembly of the first test aircraft.

Pratt & Whitney vice-president Bob Saia said the company has demonstrated “the durability and game-changing performance of our Geared Turbofan engine architecture,” including the targeted double-digit improvement in fuel efficiency and noise reduction.

The PW1500G engines type certified through Transport Canada by Pratt & Whitney Canada were assembled at Pratt & Whitney Canada’s Mirabel Aerospace Centre, north of Montreal.

Each aircraft will be powered by two engines, which use an advanced gear system to allow its fans to operate at a different speed than the low-pressure compressor and turbine.

The 110- to 149-seat CSeries is partially made from advanced composite materials that promise to deliver a 15-per-cent reduction in cash operating costs and a 20-per-cent fuel burn reduction.

[Edited 2013-02-20 14:40:34]

User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 87, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 39814 times:

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 78):
Queb....

Any more info on the engine install yet?

Photo taken on February 5
http://static.ow.ly/photos/original/1yHGd.jpg


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 88, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 39540 times:

Wow, nice and impressive.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineQuantos From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 39541 times:

Very nice! Can't wait to see it fly (and hoping I can see it on the first flight!)

User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 90, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 39439 times:

Tranport Canada PW1500G data sheet

https://www.box.com/s/76cq9bwbf22ikh1trjum


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2618 posts, RR: 1
Reply 91, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 39406 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 87):

Photo taken on February 5

Looking good! Engines & nacelles mounted, slats installed, flaps not yet. I wonder how it looks on the inside, how many systems installed, flight test instrumentation, etc.


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 92, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 39208 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 91):
slats installed

no slats installed yet


User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 39117 times:

Will the aircraft sit that high? or is it because the lack of components installed why it is sitting high..

User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 94, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 39172 times:

official rollout march 7th per Scott Hamilton on Twitter

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 95, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 39153 times:

More about the production rate:

Quote:
Bombardier expects 20-30 CSeries production yr 1, 120 by yr 3 1/2: earnings webcast. To reveal first production CSeries March 7



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinePugman211 From UK - England, joined Dec 2012, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 39131 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

yep, slats are not installed in that photo.

User currently offlineQuantos From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 39135 times:

I'm assuming that to make a presentation on march 7th, FTV1 has to look finished (at least the outside)? Also, if someone could explain a detail I noticed: in the first pictures in the thread, the winglets seem to already be installed. However, they are missing when the aircraft is outside. Were they removed for some reason?

User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 948 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 39035 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 87):
Photo taken on February 5

Fabulous - thank you queb!!

I have a question... it could be me, or the angle/lens of the photo, but the GTF engine seems to be larger than usual, relative to the fuselage. Does anyone know whether the GTF engines developped to date will be visibly identifiable to a casual observer?


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 99, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 39093 times:

GTF engine is larger than other engines, that's why Boeing can't mounted a GTF engine on 737 MAX. Cseries GTF is larger than 737 Max Leap-X. (72" vs 69")

program update from Leeham News:
http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2013...-7-bbd-sees-russia-as-ripe-market/


User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 948 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 39030 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 99):
GTF engine is larger than other engines, that's why Boeing can't mounted a GTF engine on 737 MAX. Cseries GTF is larger than 737 Max Leap-X. (72" vs 69")

queb, First the pictures (correct me if I am wrong, but the picture in 87 that may an a.net first, be the first ever picture a GTF on a production aircraft....), then the info.

You're a hero! If I were PM, I'd offer you a Senate seat (just say you're from Alberta, if anyone asks)


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 101, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 39046 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 100):
You're a hero! If I were PM, I'd offer you a Senate seat (just say you're from Alberta, if anyone asks)

thank you very much but the picture was posted by BBD on his Ow.ly account this morning

http://ow.ly/i/1yHOQ


User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2451 posts, RR: 12
Reply 102, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 38665 times:

Another vote of confidence coming up for the C-series, apparently:

According to this, Lufthansa is ready to order another batch of 30 C-series, even before first flight.

With thanks to fellow member Columba in this thread, post#115:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...al_aviation/read.main/5695121/#115

I’m getting more and more excited by the C-series and the GTF by the day . . . !




PW100


BTW, is the PW1500 series a P&W product, or a P&WC product? The Transport Canada TCDS published above clearly shows P&WC . . . ?



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 103, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38492 times:

Quoting PW100 (Reply 102):
BTW, is the PW1500 series a P&W product, or a P&WC product? The Transport Canada TCDS published above clearly shows P&WC . . . ?


It's a P&W product, TC made a mistake. Surely because testing and manufacturing (PW1500G only) is done by P&WC in Mirabel.

http://www.pwc.ca/en/about/mirabel-aerospace-centre

[Edited 2013-02-22 17:38:35]

User currently offlineYYCSpotter From Canada, joined Jul 2012, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 38197 times:

So we know that the 1st flight of the CS100 is slated for june, but what about the CS300?


I
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2803 posts, RR: 59
Reply 105, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 37874 times:

For the technically interested I put an analysis of the C-series and it's engines at Tech/Ops:

PW1500G Analysis, The GTF For C-series (by ferpe Feb 23 2013 in Tech Ops)



Non French in France
User currently offlinePaolo92 From Italy, joined Oct 2007, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 36978 times:

Here is the official event scheduled by Bombardier for the "CSeries Program Update" on March 7, at 11am EST (3pm GMT).
Bombardier CSeries Program Update - Bombardier Aerospace Events
In this 2 hour presentation there will be the rollout of the first CS100 aircraft as above mentioned by queb.
At that link there will also be a live webcast.



Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, will be my wingtip, passing over...
User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 35521 times:

The scheduled event is now less than 48 hours away...seems like a good time to inquire if anyone has any new updates or information? I assume new pictures wouldn't be available this close to the event, but who knows.

Also, has it been confirmed that the actual roll-out is taking place on Thursday? Bombardier's press releases say only that it's a "program update" but I can only find certain secondary sources that are saying it will include the roll-out as well. You'd expect the roll out would have to be soon if the project is still on schedule for first flight in June. Anyone with info?


User currently offlineCRJ900X From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 35514 times:

Also, I wonder if Bombardier will be able to secure any additional firm orders for the aircraft to coincide with the roll out.

User currently offlinebonusonus From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 35431 times:

Quoting CRJ900X (Reply 108):
Also, I wonder if Bombardier will be able to secure any additional firm orders for the aircraft to coincide with the roll out.

Or if they will announce their launch customer...


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 110, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 35448 times:

Quoting PW100 (Reply 102):
According to this, Lufthansa is ready to order another batch of 30 C-series, even before first flight.

I would have thought 30 airframes would be too many for OS. Then again, LX is replacing 20 RJs with 30 CS100.

I think the CSeries is a great fit for any airline that doesn't need containerized cargo. This should become more apparent with the CS500, I believe.


User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 35410 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 110):
This should become more apparent with the CS500, I believe.

It will be interesting to see when this gets launched...presumably not until the -100 at least gets in the air, but you'd think offering of the -500 is a pretty safe bet.


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 112, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 35353 times:

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 111):
It will be interesting to see when this gets launched...presumably not until the -100 at least gets in the air, but you'd think offering of the -500 is a pretty safe bet

I would hope so. The thing that concerns me is their Chinese tie-up that limits co-operation to aircraft with 149 seats. I wonder how much this agreement handcuffs BBD. That and BBD's sometimes vociferous insistence that they are not interested in growing the CSeries (I sincerely hope this is just PR and not sincere on their part.)

I really don't think the CSeries as a family will be as viable or complete without the CS500. I look at various airlines from mainlines like AC and LH to LCCs like WN and WS and U2 and I can't see the case for the CSeries without the CS500.

Specifically, the CS500 will let airlines upsize slightly from the 319/73G while still keeping their COC and CASM low or even reducing them below the 319/73G. But I don't think there is a case for the CS500 on its own or the CS100 and CS300 without the CS500.

For example, I envision that LH (and all its brands) will eventually replace all their E-Jets and CRJs with the CS100 on regionals and mainlines (Swiss European and Austrian), while upgrading A319s to CS500 on mainlines. I could see the same combo for AC in due course. 319s replaced by CS500 and E190s replaced by CS100s. Essentially, the only Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies that will be operated will be the 739MAX and 321NEO in due course. And this will mean airlines will be flying the most efficient aircraft in each size category.

On the single type front, I suspect that the CASM difference may just be notable enough to tempt airlines like WN, WS and U2 to consider a second type and upgauge their remaining Boeing/Airbus types. I can imagine the CS500 and 321NEO/739MAX combo proving quite fruitful for the likes of WN.


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5027 posts, RR: 28
Reply 113, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 35111 times:

That is one sexy looking plane! I think this program will do even better than what the CRJ did! I cant wait to fly on this plane!


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 35108 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 112):
I really don't think the CSeries as a family will be as viable or complete without the CS500. I look at various airlines from mainlines like AC and LH to LCCs like WN and WS and U2 and I can't see the case for the CSeries without the CS500.

Specifically, the CS500 will let airlines upsize slightly from the 319/73G while still keeping their COC and CASM low or even reducing them below the 319/73G. But I don't think there is a case for the CS500 on its own or the CS100 and CS300 without the CS500.

For example, I envision that LH (and all its brands) will eventually replace all their E-Jets and CRJs with the CS100 on regionals and mainlines (Swiss European and Austrian), while upgrading A319s to CS500 on mainlines. I could see the same combo for AC in due course. 319s replaced by CS500 and E190s replaced by CS100s. Essentially, the only Boeing and Airbus narrowbodies that will be operated will be the 739MAX and 321NEO in due course. And this will mean airlines will be flying the most efficient aircraft in each size category.

I don't necessarily think that the CS-500 is a "must" for the program to be a success. The amount of orders for the current versions, all secured prior to first flight, for an unproven plane made by a manufacturer unproven in making planes of this size, tells me that the market is there, and I think the order book will grow quite a bit after it flies. The -500 represents, IMO, what could take the project from merely a successful, positive ROI venture, up to a cash cow for BBD. Another factor is that the -500 would be a 1:1 replacement for the MD-80, and it would become available at the right time to do just that, and we know that many need replacing.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 115, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 35034 times:

The only thing keeping a CS500 from being sold is a customer...and some real world flight data. BBd will offer one as soon as a customer orders a few.


What the...?
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 116, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 34938 times:

@JoeCanuck

Your statement would imply that Bombardier is courting potential CS500 clients. Makes me wonder why BBD didn't offer AK the CS500 with 180 seats instead of the CS300 with 160 seats. Maybe they would have actually been considered, instead of a being a foil to force discounts from Airbus.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 117, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 34890 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 116):
Your statement would imply that Bombardier is courting potential CS500 clients.

It doesn't take courting on the part of BBD...all it takes is a customer who can extrapolate a CS500 from the stats of the CS100 and 300, and decide that's what they want.

Odds are, AK would have gone Airbus regardless and it was still a bit early in the game. With first flight mere months away, the 'stats' part of the formula will be public knowledge and a great deal of the uncertainty about the program will be gone.



What the...?
User currently offlinesf260 From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 34723 times:

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 111):

Honestly I don't see a need for BBD to launch the CS500 before CS300 first flight or CS100 EIS. It would mean another commitment and additional pressure to all engineers to deliver. B787 and A380 have proven you don't want to rush programs like this, take it step by step. (Hence, B still hasn't launched the 787-10, it's not because there is no market for it.)

Don't expect CS500 launch before Q4 2014.


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 119, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 34149 times:

Quoting sf260 (Reply 118):

I don't think they need to hold off launching it because it might mean rushing engineers. That's what target dates are for. Set the date out further if workload is a concern.

And I wouldn't expect a CS500 before 2016. It would give the 320NEO a run for its money if it comes shortly after the NEO enters service and with data already available from the CS100 and CS300.


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 120, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 33634 times:

BBD must have some incredible corporate security. Not a peep about the launch.

User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 121, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 32990 times:

Bombardier confirms CS300 airframe can accommodate up to 160 seats. Extra capacity seating option will be available in-production and as a retrofit (requires the addition of a second pair of over-wing exit doors). It also confirmed that Latvia-based airBaltic is one of these customers, having selected a 148-seat higher-density version.

http://www.bombardier.com/wps/portal...edia-centre?docID=0901260d802a1c40


User currently offlineQuantos From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 32667 times:

Media update at Mirabel should currently be in progress. Hopefully we will have some pictures soon!

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 123, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 32746 times:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BEw8nzyCUAAIgzL.jpg:large


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 124, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 32787 times:

Bombardier is speaking of "a first truly new cabin in 25 years".

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BEw_AlDCQAEznvG.jpg:large



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 125, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 32732 times:

More updates are comming in:

- Wing load test completed last Saturday
- 1500G engine: 20% fuel burn advantage and 15% reduced fuel burn
- CS100 first flight by end of June, EIS mid-2014

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BEw_5ejCMAAqhoy.jpg:large

Quote:
Development timeline for #CSeries. Static test aircraft, FTV1 first test aircraft, and aircraft zero. Simulator is running right now CAST static aircraft has passed wing max bending test last Saturday at approximately 5 feet. virtual flights conducted on Aircraft zero. Engineering simulator is running 24/7 at Mirabel.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 126, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 32757 times:

And there it is:

http://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/398946_497072777015589_1294531162_n.jpg

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BExBuvLCEAAAkeb.jpg:large

http://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/198667_497074520348748_2104614313_n.jpg

[Edited 2013-03-07 08:03:12]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1253 posts, RR: 3
Reply 127, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 32688 times:

That bird indeed looks beautiful, can't wait to see it flying.


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineQuantos From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 32578 times:

Awesome! Thanks for the pictures!

User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 129, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 32749 times:

Looking good...    ...

.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Assets/GetAsset.aspx?ItemID=49792



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 130, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 32649 times:

More pictures:

http://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/482398_497084813681052_1935218119_n.jpg

http://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/734525_497086313680902_1482165631_n.jpg

And some more updates:

- Only "weeks left" to finish FTV 1, wing fairings are missing
- Bombardier found that lithium ion battery technology was not ready for CSeries
- First aircraft EIS still undisclosed for customer competitve reasons
- CSeries still on track with $3.4bn budget
- Won't commit to first flight B4 Paris Air Show, sticks with end June

Bombardier also showed FTV 2, 3, and 4. Here are two pictures of FTV 2:

http://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/31473_497085637014303_430026165_n.jpg

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BExNtoyCIAAu_f-.jpg:large

[Edited 2013-03-07 08:53:29]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 131, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 32558 times:

They finally turned off the ambiance lights.

http://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/544149_497089483680585_1757040365_n.jpg

http://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/382318_497090067013860_1346202190_n.jpg

http://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/72480_497090487013818_971199224_n.jpg

[Edited 2013-03-07 08:53:52]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 32327 times:

Thanks for all of the pics Karel!

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 133, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32140 times:

FTV 3:

http://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/430722_497109067011960_588633224_n.jpg

FTV 2 again:

http://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/525165_497108613678672_1088884262_n.jpg

Info about FTV 5:

Quote:
We are at the ECS. The environment control system and interiors test rig. FTV-5 will be first aircraft with passenger cabin. This tests air systems, lighting, cabin management system, and audio seats. Galley has been installed but seats to come. This is a full fuselage in CS100. There will be 5 CS100 and 2 CS300 in flight test program.


[Edited 2013-03-07 10:12:15]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinesomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3367 posts, RR: 3
Reply 134, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 31989 times:

Why did they "roll out" a half finished plane? Even the 787 looked more complete

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 135, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32035 times:

Quoting someone83 (Reply 134):
Why did they "roll out" a half finished plane?

That's a good question. FTV 1 is "weeks away" from completion, one would think they waited a bit longer.

Quote:
Even the 787 looked more complete

Until you take look at the inside   



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineEaglePower83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 31944 times:

What a great looking plane!
Sexy engines on there too I might add  


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 137, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 31845 times:

Quoting someone83 (Reply 134):
Why did they "roll out" a half finished plane?

Seems a strange idea to me, too.

Quoting someone83 (Reply 134):
Even the 787 looked more complete

Appearances can be deceptive, as they say.


User currently offlineac888yow From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 531 posts, RR: 1
Reply 138, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 31580 times:

Quoting someone83 (Reply 134):
Why did they "roll out" a half finished plane?

They didn't "roll out" anything. This was a program update for media, analysts, and investors.

http://www.bombardier.com/en/coporat...ses/details?docID=0901260d802a0bb1


User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 948 posts, RR: 0
Reply 139, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 31455 times:

Thanks for the pictures!

Very interesting, that they would roll it out with the wing fairing missing, and without a snazzy coat of while paint and "C Searies" written all over it in giant wavy letters.

Particularly when compared to Boieng's roll out of the 787 which went ouf of the way to present an airplane that was complete finished, whent it turns out it was clearly not...


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 140, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 31437 times:

It's not an entirely fulfilling moment. I'm kinda disappointed at their progression. I say this as an investor and av fan.

It looks me that there's real risk they won't make end-june for first flight. Otherwise, I would hope they'd be more committal to the deadline.

I am happy they are progressing though. And from the looks of it, at least they have more than Boeing did when the 787 was rolled out. So maybe if there are delays from here on in, they'll be minimal.

I do find it odd though that they had this briefing at this juncture. Why not wait till they have a finished airplane ready for the testing flight line? It would only have been a few weeks away, from their own admission. And they would have been able to show substantially more completed FTV 2/3/4/5 too.


User currently offlinerikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 141, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 31417 times:

Quoting someone83 (Reply 134):
Even the 787 looked more complete
Quoting art (Reply 137):
Appearances can be deceptive, as they say.

If I remember reading correctly, the 787 doors were actually temporary plywood... painted to look like the exterior was finished.

Quoting ac888yow (Reply 138):
They didn't "roll out" anything. This was a program update for media, analysts, and investors.

Not a bad marketing ploy. Great way to drum up interest, and show where the plane is at. That they also showed FTV 2, 3, 4, and talked about 5... we are seeing some good progress on the program.

Can't wait for the more official unveiling! Cudo's to the largest indiginously-designed aircraft made in Canada!



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11367 posts, RR: 33
Reply 142, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 31391 times:

Quoting davs5032 (Reply 132):
Thanks for all of the pics Karel!

Full credit goes to the people who were present at the party:

http://twitter.com/FG_STrim
http://twitter.com/LeehamNews



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineac888yow From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 531 posts, RR: 1
Reply 143, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 31330 times:

There will probably be a "roll out" in the more traditional sense when FTV1 is fully assembled, painted, and ready for handover to the flight test center.

User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2451 posts, RR: 12
Reply 144, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 31006 times:

Quoting someone83 (Reply 134):
Why did they "roll out" a half finished plane? Even the 787 looked more complete
Quoting ytz (Reply 140):
Why not wait till they have a finished airplane ready for the testing flight line? It would only have been a few weeks away, from their own admission

Perhaps they wanted to show the world that this was in fact the real thing, and not some potemkin roll out, like . . .

Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 141):
If I remember reading correctly, the 787 doors were actually temporary plywood... painted to look like the exterior was finished

Good to see progress, and on more than just the first airframe!



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 145, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 30925 times:

I liked it. It shows BBD is close to completing a real plane, not a mockup...and they're not embarrassed to show it off. With 4 flight test vehicles in various stages of completion...on top of the static test frame and CIASTA...things are looking good to meet their deadline.


What the...?
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1379 posts, RR: 2
Reply 146, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 30739 times:

I would rather see a "half-finished" plane than whatever the 787 was they rolled out.

User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 147, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 30794 times:

One thing I find befuddling is their hard pitch on the 160 seat layout. Their whole pitch is that it has the same CASM as a 180 seat airplane. Surely, they understand that no airline is going to give up 20 seats of revenue, even if the CASM is the same. Particularly a discount airline that would use such a tight layout.

Clearly somebody is interested in a higher number of seats. But I would think that what most airline customers in this boat would want is a CS500 with 180 seats. Same revenue as today's airplanes. Lower CASM.

The question is, who is asking for this 160 seat layout? And why is BBD trying to pitch a high-density CS300 instead of offering (even if unofficially) the CS500?


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 148, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 30742 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 147):
The question is, who is asking for this 160 seat layout?

Easyjet ?

Quoting ytz (Reply 147):
And why is BBD trying to pitch a high-density CS300 instead of offering (even if unofficially) the CS500?

everything in its own time


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 149, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 30685 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 147):
One thing I find befuddling is their hard pitch on the 160 seat layout. Their whole pitch is that it has the same CASM as a 180 seat airplane. Surely, they understand that no airline is going to give up 20 seats of revenue, even if the CASM is the same. Particularly a discount airline that would use such a tight layout.

180 seats only works if you can fill 180 seats. It only takes a few empty seats to raise CASM. 160 seats in the CS300 would handily beat any other aircraft for CASM. As well, being a smaller plane, seat mile costs don't rise as quickly as they might on a larger plane with each empty seat.

Besides, it costs them almost nothing, (2 exits), to offer it...and I suspect they wouldn't be offering it if they didn't have some pretty strong indications of a market.

Quoting queb (Reply 148):

Quoting ytz (Reply 147):
And why is BBD trying to pitch a high-density CS300 instead of offering (even if unofficially) the CS500?

everything in its own time

I agree...first deliver on what is being offered...then look to grow.



What the...?
User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 150, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 30676 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 147):
The question is, who is asking for this 160 seat layout? And why is BBD trying to pitch a high-density CS300 instead of offering (even if unofficially) the CS500?

Realistically, I think they realize that it's not going to compete with a 180 seat layout A320 or B738 for customers that need that much capacity. BBD is hoping that such customers will consider it a legitimate option to add to their fleet for routes that produce slightly smaller loads, however. I believe they also said that they wanted to give discount airlines the ability to get as close to the 150 seat limit as they could in an all Y config.

The stretch also helps the CS300 when you compare it to its main competitors, the A319/B73G, on paper, as it's capacity has gone from slightly less, to now allowing equal number, or even slightly more seats than both.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13017 posts, RR: 100
Reply 151, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 30232 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PW100 (Reply 102):
According to this, Lufthansa is ready to order another batch of 30 C-series, even before first flight.

I can only hope. Nothing wrong with more orders.

   If true, that would be the 'shot in the arm' the C-series needs. It would bring orders over 200 and bring onboard a customer that would nudge others.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 125):
- 1500G engine: 20% fuel burn advantage and 15% reduced fuel burn

  

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 136):
Sexy engines on there too I might add  

Definitely. Some of those photos really emphasize how different the fan is...


Quoting ytz (Reply 147):
Surely, they understand that no airline is going to give up 20 seats of revenue, even if the CASM is the same.

Huh? At the same cost per seat, the more seats will sell for less per seat (on average). Thus airlines would be very interested in a 160 seater to displace the 180 seater.

Quoting ytz (Reply 147):
The question is, who is asking for this 160 seat layout?

It is needed to be competitive to even bid a few airlines: U2, AirAsia (lost the latest, but there will be follow on orders), and any ULCC. Its cheap to offer. With the promised economics, it becomes a 738/A320 competitor.    Not in seats, but profit.   

I like how people talk as if seats were important. They're only important as a means to an end: profit. That is what matters.

The fact the extra two exits are being offered gives me hope of more C-series orders soon.   

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 152, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 30331 times:

CS100 new specs datasheet:
http://media.bombardiercms.com/cseri...series_download_high_en_7a1759.pdf

Here's a comparison graph between june 2011 and march 2013 specs datasheet (changes in red)
http://www.servimg.com/u/f70/17/03/84/59/cs100_10.png


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 153, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 30314 times:

CS300 new specs datasheet:
http://media.bombardiercms.com/cseri...series_download_high_en_b654d1.pdf

Here's a comparison graph between june 2011 and march 2013 specs datasheet (changes in red)
http://www.servimg.com/u/f70/17/03/84/59/cs300_10.png


User currently offlineYTZ From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 154, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 30203 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 148):
Easyjet ?

Easyjet doesn't do 28" pitch. Easjet, Ryanair, Air Asia, etc. are all above 29".

Quoting queb (Reply 148):
everything in its own time

Sure. That's my point. Why bother with this?

Even when it comes to an airline like U2. I actually think the normal high density config at 145 would be appealing to U2. But only if it's possible to get a CS500 also with 170 seats. I'd argue that U2 is looking to upsize a good chunk of its fleet going forward. They'd accept a slightly smaller aircraft than Airbus or Boeing product. But they aren't going to go to a 28" to get the CASM. Which is why I ask, why bother with this?

Even with BBD wanted to target U2. Offering them a CS300/CS500 combo down the road is a much easier (and more compelling) pitch.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 149):
180 seats only works if you can fill 180 seats.

No. Just look at the trends on NEO and MAX orders. They clearly favour the larger size. And that's because you don't have to fill 180 to make the aircraft decision sensible. You just have to fill more than 160. And given the prices on discount airlines, that happens fairly often.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 151):
I like how people talk as if seats were important. They're only important as a means to an end: profit. That is what matters.

Right. Which is exactly why a lot of discount airlines are moving A320/B738 size. As long you sell more than 160 seats on any flight, you make more money than you could with a 319/73G. And if you sell less than 160 seats, the increased operating cost is marginal.

So overall, higher upside potential, but very little increase in costs to pay for the potential.


User currently offlineYTZ From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 155, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 30158 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 152):
CS100 new specs datasheet
Quoting queb (Reply 153):
CS300 new specs datasheet

Bigger and heavier aircraft. And no serious impact on Take-off/Landing field length. That's impressive. But I wonder how the bigger and heavier aircraft will impact fuel burn.

And it's crazy that they are only communicating about the aircraft being bigger now. Surely, they decided on this years ago. I'd say it's significant news that the CS300 now has the same or more seating capacity than the 319.


User currently onlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7474 posts, RR: 18
Reply 156, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 30120 times:

Love it. Love every inch of it! Can't wait to be on board !!


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6147 posts, RR: 35
Reply 157, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 30099 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 147):
Clearly somebody is interested in a higher number of seats. But I would think that what most airline customers in this boat would want is a CS500 with 180 seats. Same revenue as today's airplanes. Lower CASM.

The 160-seat layout was rumoured for some time before Farnborough where it was first publicly announced that AirAsia was "interested" in the layout. There was a lengthy discussion in an A.net thread at the time (some people suggested that the CS300 model painted with the AirAsia scheme was "proof" of the seriousness of the interest). As it turned out, AirAsia went on to order even more A320's (as a side note, they have now ordered more Airbus NB's than any other airline).



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 158, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 30058 times:

Quoting YTZ (Reply 154):

No. Just look at the trends on NEO and MAX orders. They clearly favour the larger size. And that's because you don't have to fill 180 to make the aircraft decision sensible. You just have to fill more than 160. And given the prices on discount airlines, that happens fairly often.

They favour the larger planes because the smaller of those models doesn't offer much in the way of savings over the larger. The CS300, on the other hand, will have a significant operating advantage over the MAX and NEO, in the sub 160 seat arena.



What the...?
User currently offlinesf260 From Belgium, joined Oct 2007, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 159, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 29931 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 149):
180 seats only works if you can fill 180 seats. It only takes a few empty seats to raise CASM.

How do empty seats raise CASM? They aren't removing these seats, are they? If anything I'd think they lower CASM very slightly, less traffic load, less fuel burn, less cost. (It's not good for RASM though)


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 160, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 29847 times:

Quoting sf260 (Reply 159):

Ok...RASM.



What the...?
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11645 posts, RR: 60
Reply 161, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 29799 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 153):
Here's a comparison graph between june 2011 and march 2013 specs datasheet (changes in red)

Although I couldn't watch the entire conference due to boarding a flight, everything I have seen suggests that it's safe to say the CS300 will be capable of using LCY and other Cat 2/very short Cat 3 runways. Is that a fair statement? If so, it is an incredible achievement which Bombardier should rightly be proud of and would also seek to explain a few bits of news from LCY regarding the new stands I've heard.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineteahan From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 5294 posts, RR: 61
Reply 162, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 29647 times:

It should also be possible to put 6 abreast seating in the CSeries. Compare the dimensions with the Bae 146 / RJ family:

Bae 146 / RJ family CSeries
Floor width 3.24 m 3.10 m
Cabin width 3.42 m 3.28 m

(Bae 146 / RJ: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Lufth...=3968caff859c9d3de31e75ae21f2a8df)

If you put 2 or 3 rows of comfortable 4 abreast business class seats in the first few rows and pack the rest of the cabin with 28/29" 6 abreast seating for a total of 160 seats, you have a plane with very high RASM potential.

Poor passengers...



Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 613 posts, RR: 8
Reply 163, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 29627 times:

Bravo BBD !
Quite impressive in fact
In this stealthy stretch of the CS300 and the cabin length growth for the two version is quite an achievement ... and seems to explain the 6 month delay !


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11645 posts, RR: 60
Reply 164, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 29571 times:

Quoting teahan (Reply 162):

It should also be possible to put 6 abreast seating in the CSeries. Compare the dimensions with the Bae 146 / RJ family:

That would take another inch of width away from each seat, making it just 16 inches wide, I don't see that being practical. It would also push the seat count up to around 190.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2178 posts, RR: 1
Reply 165, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 29588 times:
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Quoting YTZ (Reply 154):
Even when it comes to an airline like U2. I actually think the normal high density config at 145 would be appealing to U2.

Bombardier has updated their seat map for the CS300 on their website, showing 150 seats @ 30 inch pitch, which means Easyjet can offer pretty much the same capacity as their A319 but with one less FA required.

However, I think I remember a comment some years back where it was decided to keep the A319 with 156 seats and four cabin crew instead of 150 seats and three cabin crew and schedule the cabin crews on longer days as they then had an extra pair of hands and could take breaks onboard without reducing inflight service.

I assume every airline will install lightweight slimline seats in their CS300, so a 28 inch pitch will probably feel like 29-30 inches, and then a 160-seat config is realistic for Easyjet too, me thinks.

Great looking bird, and those engines are just huge!  



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 166, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 29285 times:

That's a nice looking machine.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13017 posts, RR: 100
Reply 167, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 29127 times:
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It just occurred to me FlyDubai could be the launch customer for the twin exit CS300...

Quoting YTZ (Reply 154):
As long you sell more than 160 seats on any flight, you make more money than you could with a 319/73G. And if you sell less than 160 seats, the increased operating cost is marginal.

But the 160 CS300 CASM matches the 180 seat 738 CASM. Thus it isn't more profit. The last seats sell for less than the first 160.    The profit margin will be higher with this high density CS300.

There is a significant cost per flight advantage for the C-series. Much more than a 73G vs. the 738.

I think the A320/738 will do well, but Bombardier has opened up a new market.   

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 165):
I assume every airline will install lightweight slimline seats in their CS300, so a 28 inch pitch will probably feel like 29-30 inches, and then a 160-seat config is realistic for Easyjet too, me thinks.

   U2 would be silly not to consider the type. In particular for A319 replacement.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 667 posts, RR: 3
Reply 168, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 29119 times:

Swiss confirms interest as Bombardier launches 160-seat CS300

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...er-launches-160-seat-cs300-383185/


User currently offlineaviaponcho From France, joined Aug 2011, 613 posts, RR: 8
Reply 169, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 28960 times:

Thanks Queb
I find it strange that the CS100 didn't get the 28in treatment ! it can go all the way to 130 PAX easily, or staying in the 125PAX region with more galleys / toilets


User currently offlineYTZ From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 170, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 28767 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 157):
The 160-seat layout was rumoured for some time before Farnborough where it was first publicly announced that AirAsia was "interested" in the layout.

I remember. And it turns out, the entire thing was a foil to get Airbus to give them a good price. So clearly a CS300 with 160 seats wasn't better than an A320NEO with 180 seats.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 158):
They favour the larger planes because the smaller of those models doesn't offer much in the way of savings over the larger. The CS300, on the other hand, will have a significant operating advantage over the MAX and NEO, in the sub 160 seat arena.

That only applies if you are flying a single type though. If you are flying a mix of sizes, this advantage is minimized. And every LCC you look at, from U2 to WN to WS, is moving up from 319/73G to 320/738 sized aircraft.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 161):
everything I have seen suggests that it's safe to say the CS300 will be capable of using LCY

How so? 4750 feet just to land. And 5000ft to take-off. Seems to like any ops at LCY with a CS300 will be max-effort short-field.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 165):
Bombardier has updated their seat map for the CS300 on their website, showing 150 seats @ 30 inch pitch, which means Easyjet can offer pretty much the same capacity as their A319 but with one less FA required.

Right. And they could do 155 seats at 29". So really 1 or 6 less seats (0.64-3.86% less capacity) with 15% lower operating costs. Great pitch to U2. But again, U2 seems interested in sizing up a little too.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 167):
t just occurred to me FlyDubai could be the launch customer for the twin exit CS300...

Why? They are flying 738s with 189 pax at 30" pitch. Why would they possibly go down to 160 seats at 28" pitch?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 167):
U2 would be silly not to consider the type. In particular for A319 replacement.

They are sizing up to A320. And I think their next order will be a mix of 737M/319N and 738M/320N. I think BBD would have a substantially better shot with the CS500. Then they'd be able to pitch a CS300 with 150 seats and a CS500 with 170 seats for U2.

Quoting queb (Reply 168):
Swiss confirms interest as Bombardier launches 160-seat CS300

I think it was inevitable that LX takes up the CS300. I expect OS to order at least the CS100 as well. I am going to speculate that the LH group is working on LX and OS giving up Airbus narrowbodies smaller than the A320. And if the CS500 comes about, they may ditch the A320 too and only see the A321 going forward (for high capacity, narrowbody medium-haul and routes requiring containerized cargo).

I expect their 319s to be passed to 4U and eventually for 4U itself to transition to the CS300. The CS300 with 5-abreast seating and large luggage bins is perfect for 4U.


User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 606 posts, RR: 0
Reply 171, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 28766 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 164):
That would take another inch of width away from each seat, making it just 16 inches wide, I don't see that being practical. It would also push the seat count up to around 190.


Read the whole post again!

Teahan opinionated the possibility (but not probability) of six abreast not to increase the total number of pax but to put in a few rows of four abreast business class, keeping the capacity at 160.

I would agree that 16" just would not cut it, as do teahan as evidenced by his closing remark of "Poor passengers..."



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlineYTZ From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 172, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 28700 times:

Quoting teahan (Reply 162):
It should also be possible to put 6 abreast seating in the CSeries.

Quit giving the airlines ideas! lol

I can just see the gears turning in O'Leary's head right now....


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13017 posts, RR: 100
Reply 173, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 28701 times:
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Quoting YTZ (Reply 170):
So clearly a CS300 with 160 seats wasn't better than an A320NEO with 180 seats.

For an airline already operating the type there woudl be less risk sticking with the known. So this isn't a clear win.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 170):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 167):
t just occurred to me FlyDubai could be the launch customer for the twin exit CS300...

Why? They are flying 738s with 189 pax at 30" pitch. Why would they possibly go down to 160 seats at 28" pitch?

Reducing the cost per flight.

Like many 752 fans, you fixate on the passenger count and not RASM-CASM. It is about % profit. Not total profit per flight, but % profit, ROI, and other factors. A 15% lower cost per flight means that the 738 carries 28 of those extra seats that earn no profit. If we assume an 85% LF, the 738 has 156 seats more from profit than the CS300. So there is an area where the CS300 is going to make more profit per flight than the 738 thanks to the lower cost per flight.

And a lower cost per flight is less risk...

And the first inch of lost pitch won't be noticed by the passengers thanks to new seats. Since FlyDubai puts a hard cap on range due to their model of *not* hoteling crew, they are an ideal candidate.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 606 posts, RR: 0
Reply 174, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 28671 times:

Quoting YTZ (Reply 170):
So clearly a CS300 with 160 seats wasn't better than an A320NEO with 180 seats.


On the contrary, that's not that clear at all with the AirAsia example.
For all we know, the CS300 could be marginally better than a A320NEO in those respective seat configurations but after factoring in the hassle of introducing another distinctly different aircraft into the fleet, the slim advantage just about vaporized.



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11645 posts, RR: 60
Reply 175, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 28717 times:

Quoting YTZ (Reply 170):
How so? 4750 feet just to land. And 5000ft to take-off. Seems to like any ops at LCY with a CS300 will be max-effort short-field.

At MTOW and MLW. All the larger types which use LCY completely blow the available distances when you look at the MTOW/MLW performance figures, including the CS100, but they can be accommodated as they do/will not operate near these weights.

Quoting neutrino (Reply 171):
Read the whole post again!

Teahan opinionated the possibility (but not probability) of six abreast not to increase the total number of pax but to put in a few rows of four abreast business class, keeping the capacity at 160.

Yes, I did read it the first time.

If you are suggesting the viability of six abreast seating then it goes without saying that, if indeed possible, someone would opt for it in an all economy configuration, thus taking the overall maximum seat count to 190, based on there being 30 rows. Of course whether it is possible to evacuate that many people in the required time is another matter...


Dan  

[Edited 2013-03-08 08:43:47]


...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineYTZ From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1990 posts, RR: 24
Reply 176, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 28682 times:

Quoting neutrino (Reply 174):
On the contrary, that's not that clear at all with the AirAsia example.

How is it not clear? They didn't order the aircraft. I'd say that's pretty clear. Even you agree that the advantage may not be there:

Quoting neutrino (Reply 174):
For all we know, the CS300 could be marginally better than a A320NEO in those respective seat configurations but after factoring in the hassle of introducing another distinctly different aircraft into the fleet, the slim advantage just about vaporized.

And I agree. That's why I keep saying, the family is incomplete without the CS500. And heck, I bought BBD stock anticipating the launch of that bird. That's what will really sell the CSeries.

I eventually see large airlines moving to something like CS100/CS500 and 739MAX/321NEO in their fleet. And I see LCCs moving to a CS300/CS500 combo.