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Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?  
User currently online1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1006 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9535 times:
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Given the very limited slot availability at LHR and the presence of domestic LCC's at other London airports is the introduction of another carrier on LHR domestic routes really a good use of those limited slots ?

Keeping names of airlines out of it might help the thread to not degenerate !!

90 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7378 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9533 times:
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Quoting 1400mph (Thread starter):
is the introduction of another carrier on LHR domestic routes really a good use of those limited slots ?

Perhaps you should have asked the EU that seeing that the conditions of BA buying BD included the provision of competition on certain domestic routes.


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9406 times:

All long-haul flights need feed from other flights, long- or short-haul. So I don't think domestic flights are a waste of slots. It does not matter if the feed comes from MAN, GLA, EDI, DUB, TXL, CDG, MAD, FRA, AMS, DEL, HKG, NRT or JFK. It does not matter if the feed is domestic, continental (EU/Europe), or from another arriving intercontinental flight.

In our dream-world all domestic flying in Europe perhaps would be eliminated by high-speed-rail service, trains running at 350 km/h from each city-center to the airports, no runs longer than 3h. But it won't happen. France is close, but still enough domestic flying going on there, too.


User currently online1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1006 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9406 times:
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Quoting david_itl (Reply 1):
Perhaps you should have asked the EU that seeing that the conditions of BA buying BD included the provision of competition on certain domestic routes.

How does that work though ?

The provision of slots don't you mean ?


User currently online1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1006 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9344 times:
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Quoting CARST (Reply 2):
All long-haul flights need feed from other flights, long- or short-haul. So I don't think domestic flights are a waste of slots.

Domestic flights certainly are not a waste of slots I agree.

Do we need two carriers providing them though at a highly congested airport like LHR ?

For example there do not seem to be many domestic flights arriving at FRA this morning that are not operated by LH ?

Maybe there is a reason for that. It is probably the same reason that resulted in BD's failure ?

[Edited 2013-01-24 00:01:28]

User currently offlinen729pa From UK - England, joined Jan 2011, 414 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9306 times:

I guess it's only a waste if the flights are empty, as otherwise they are revenue earners and as CARST mentions it's for international interlining too which is important. Given that there is no alternative from LHR-GLA say by train, then a flight it has to be. I don't think it doesn't really matters whether there are 10 domestic airlines operating from LHR or 2 or 3 the slots are essentially the same. It's just over time non-profit routes are cut, or mergers occur and the slots are realigned depending on the outcome.

I remember years ago (late 80s) we had a variety of domestic airlines at LHR including Dan Air, Air UK, Manx, Brymon as well as the BMA (BMI) and BA. In some ways it would be nice to have a bit more of a choice again.


User currently offlinedamian From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

In 2011, domestic routes at LHR were worth the following passenger numbers:

EDINBURGH 1,271,459 - (9th busiest route at LHR)
GLASGOW 82,0949 - (29th busiest route at LHR)
MANCHESTER 766,906 - (31st busiest route at LHR)
ABERDEEN 652,520 - (39th busiest route at LHR)
NEWCASTLE 473,614 -(57th busiest route at LHR)
BELFAST CITY (GEORGE BEST) 428,611 - (62nd busiest route at LHR)
BELFAST INTERNATIONAL 289,359 (76th busiest route at LHR)

Worth noting that the EDI route was worth more passengers individually than Chicago, Madrid, Singapore, Delhi and Toronto routes (among others), while the GLA route added more passengers individually than Vienna, Athens, Barcelona, Sydney and Tokyo.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9232 times:

There really isn't an increase in slots being made for domestic flights.
They have just been reallocated from BD to both Virgin and BA.


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9176 times:

I added numbers to your quote, so I can answer these (rhetorical) questions:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 4):
1) Do we need two carriers providing them though at a highly congested airport like LHR ?

2) For example there do not seem to be many domestic flights arriving at FRA this morning that are not operated by LH ?

3) Maybe there is a reason for that. It is probably the same reason that resulted in BD's failure ?

To 1) Yes! 110% yes. Why allow a monopolistic situation anyway?

To 2) Total different situation. If you compare Great Britain versus Germany, taking BA/VS and LH/AB, you will see that AB has no hub at FRA, their hubs are DUS, NUE and TXL, they don't need a huge number of domestic feed into the LH hubs FRA or MUC. But at LHR both BA and VS have their largest hub operation and are both in need of domestic, continental and intercontinental feed.

To 3) I don't think that you could blame the demise of BD on their short-haul-operation. It is true that most large hub-and-spoke airlines in Europe are loosing money on their domestic/continental network these days, that is why you see a lot of restructuring going on (LH with 4U and the Score program, AirFrance with their new LCC subsidiary, etc.), but you have to sell these short-haul flights so cheap to fill your long-haul aircraft.

No feed > empty huge aircraft flying around the world > loosing money > (e.g.) VS getting out of business > BA close to monopoly at Great Britain/LHR > higher prices for the average traveller > EU and its citizens not interested in this situation


User currently online1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1006 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9065 times:
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Quoting anstar (Reply 7):
To 1) Yes! 110% yes. Why allow a monopolistic situation anyway?

Monopolistic ?

For people travelling solely between London and Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc there are countless daily options on several carriers.

Non UK based carriers offer comprehensive international and intercontinental service from airports north of LHR going both east and west. People in the north are certainly not reliant on getting to LHR for long-haul travel like they once were. They can also connect onto BA's massive operation (via countless daily domestic departures) at LHR through the best terminal at LHR if they so choose.

Considering this is it really a good use of available slots at LHR ?

(Germany is far, far more monopolistic and protectionist in its civil aviation policy than the UK)

Quoting CARST (Reply 8):
Yes! 110% yes. Why allow a monopolistic situation anyway?

You allow a monopolistic situation at FRA do you not ?

What's the difference ?

The market dictated the future of BD at LHR not BA.

Forcing the successful carrier to relinquish invaluable and highly needed slots just so another carrier can maintain an unrequired status quo is my mind very, very warped. At an airport like LHR it is also very unhelpful.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3254 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8986 times:

When BA had a monopoly on GLA-LHR, fares rose accordingly. Flying to LGW isn't great if your business is in West London or the M4 corridor.

User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8939 times:

Quoting damian (Reply 6):
In 2011, domestic routes at LHR were worth the following passenger numbers:

What is your source for those numbers?



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8786 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 9):

Considering this is it really a good use of available slots at LHR ?

Again: Both airlines (VS and BA) need the feeder flights from wherever possible.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 9):
You allow a monopolistic situation at FRA do you not ?

What's the difference ?

There is no difference regarding the slots and monopolistic situation. Years ago already LH had to give a significant number of slots to AB at FRA. AB started flights to TXL, HAM and other cities. Because of stiff competition from LH they later reduced frequencies and stopped flying to HAM. But to end the domestic monopolistic situation for FRA AB got the required slots and not just a few, e.g. they had alone 6 frequencies to HAM daily in 2009.

If you want to find a difference, there is one, FRA is a hub for LH, not for AB. LHR is a hub for BA and VS, which both need the feeder flights. But I am repeating what I said above, just read it again please.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 10):
When BA had a monopoly on GLA-LHR, fares rose accordingly. Flying to LGW isn't great if your business is in West London or the M4 corridor.

  

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 9):
The market dictated the future of BD at LHR not BA.

Forcing the successful carrier to relinquish invaluable and highly needed slots just so another carrier can maintain an unrequired status quo is my mind very, very warped. At an airport like LHR it is also very unhelpful.

The market dictated the future for BD, yes. It was between stopping operations or getting taken over by another airline. It was not BA or bust. So when BA thought about taking over BD they knew from the beginning that this would result in some slot re-allocations, otherwise the EU would not have allowed them to take over BD, it would have created a monopolistic situation at LHR. Not directly for the traveller, but for VS who would have the disadvantage compared to BA. That could have resulted in a chain of events, which I have written about in my last post, indirectly creating a monopolistic situation for the traveller, too (at least in the long-run).


User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3024 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8712 times:

That's a very tricky one to answer...

Many airlines would probably argue they don't need domestic feeder flights at LHR to fill their international flights, especially if they serve other UK airports like QR, EK and UA, but other airlines would probably claim they do...

UK airports and airlines like BA and VS would probably also claim they are discriminated against, if they cannot have domestic links to LHR, to provide feeder services. Especially when cities like CDG, AMS and FRA are similar flying distance to LHR as BHD, EDI and ABZ are.

Also you could then argue, why should airlines like LH, AF and KL be aloud to feed flights to their respected hubs from LHR and UK regional airports while BA and VS are not aloud to feed their flights through their LHR hub.

If and when the UK gets this high speed rail link, to the north of England and Scotland, and if it had a stop at Heathrow. It could then be argued flights from Scotland and England could be banned from operating into LHR, especially if airlines had an interlining agreement with the rail operator. I think AF do something similar to this in France with the TGV services.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 4):
Domestic flights certainly are not a waste of slots I agree.

Do we need two carriers providing them though at a highly congested airport like LHR ?

This is however a very good point...

Maybe an independent airline (or state owned) could operate ALL domestic routes, and is not linked to any other carrier operating to/from LHR (by alliance or financially) and is obliged to interline with all carriers that want to offer domestic connections within the UK.

Does anyone know the percentage of passengers on domestic flights connecting through LHR? Just another idea, how about restricting only passengers flying into LHR, who are connecting onto another flight. All other passengers flying to or from London only are obliged to use the likes LCY, LTN, LGW or STN.

[Edited 2013-01-24 03:16:40]

User currently offlineLN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 1039 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8691 times:

B747forever, damian has found the numbers in the CAA 2011 Survey - http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...81&pagetype=90&pageid=7640.

If you combine these CAA survey numbers with CAA reported passenger numbers for 2011, you end up with these number for the domestic traffic:

Total number of domestic passengers at LHR: 4.7 million (6.8% of LHR total)
Terminating domestic passengers at LHR: 2.2 million (3.2% of LHR total)
Domestic passengers using LHR as a transfer airport (hub): 2.5 million (3.6% of LHR total)

Since 33.6% of the terminal passengers at LHR in 2011 were either transferring or in transit, then it's easy to say 20% of the LHR passengers are foreigners using LHR as an international destination to international destination hub - i.e. 20.8 million passengers.


User currently online1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1006 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8650 times:
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Quoting CARST (Reply 12):
Again: Both airlines (VS and BA) need the feeder flights from wherever possible.

Hang on a minute CARST.

Nobody forced VS to commence international operations at LHR without domestic feed 25 years ago ? They obviously decided they didn't need it ? Otherwise they would have introduced domestic routes at the same time they were selecting LHR's most profitable long-haul routes.

What's changed has got nothing to do with BA. Outside competition has increased greatly over the years resulting in VS's 'stand alone long-haul niche carrier business plan' crumbling into dust.

VS can operate as many domestic routes as they want but it shouldn't be as a result of BA having to relinquish slots. Using BD's failure as a stick to beat BA with is typical and as Willie Walsh said rather pathetic.

There was a caveat that BA provide seats for VS feed anyway. How humiliating is that !

Quoting CARST (Reply 12):
LHR is a hub for BA and VS, which both need the feeder flights. But I am repeating what I said above, just read it again please.

Why should BA have to keep wet nursing VS due to VS's bad management. BA bought BD fair and square after (I might add) it had already shambolicly been through another carriers hands !!

Quoting CARST (Reply 12):
Not directly for the traveller, but for VS who would have the disadvantage compared to BA.

Why should BA be castigated because of failure within VS management ?? Like I said....they chose not to commence domestic operations when they commenced long-haul operations at LHR. That in itself is another example of and rather indicative of VS's naive approach to the nature of the airline industry at LHR.

Quoting CARST (Reply 12):
That could have resulted in a chain of events, which I have written about in my last post, indirectly creating a monopolistic situation for the traveller, too (at least in the long-run).
VS has never operated domestic flights. All of VS's flights from LHR are operated by at least TWO other carriers. Therefore the demise of VS would not lead to a BA monopoly on ANY route.

[Edited 2013-01-24 03:26:25]

User currently onlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7532 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8327 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 11):
What is your source for those numbers?

His number for EDI (1,271,459) is exactly that published on the CAA web site. I have not checked the others but look here:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...om_Air_Pax_Route_Analysis_2011.pdf


User currently offlinebongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3585 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8234 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 15):
VS has never operated domestic flights. All of VS's flights from LHR are operated by at least TWO other carriers. Therefore the demise of VS would not lead to a BA monopoly on ANY route.

To put a different perspective on the matter which has been touched upon with the above quote,

Without VS entering into the domestic market BA have a monopoly on a number of routes from LHR, obviously they can't charge whatever they want, but this does give them considerable leeway to increase fares. Meanwhile however we have BA and VS competing directly on a number of International routes, most if not all of which there is at least one non UK airline also on the route. In order to provide more slots for new routes it would be better to only have one UK airline on each route, as there would still be competition to help keep prices reasonable.

However, no ones suggestions are going to happen, are they ?


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8203 times:

I don't like to be negative but I would give Virgin 24 odd months before they wind up domestic.
I really can't see the point other than a dig at BA.If BMI could not make it work how will Virgin.
The market is pretty well sown up by the locos and BA have their feed also.

Then again you never know?


User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8145 times:

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 17):
Without VS entering into the domestic market BA have a monopoly on a number of routes from LHR, obviously they can't charge whatever they want,

I booked flights LHR-EDI in late April the other day. The VS flights were £3 cheaper than BA, and from my perspective not at such good times. I wonder if their in flight service will be better as based on this one example they don't seem to be differentiating themselves too much on fares.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8143 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 15):
What's changed has got nothing to do with BA.

Actually it does have something to do with BA.... they bought the carrier that was providing domestic feed to VS.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 15):
Like I said....they chose not to commence domestic operations when they commenced long-haul operations at LHR.

Because 25 years ago BD were uch more a domestic/short haul carrier and it made no sense to compete with them AND BA on domestic routes.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 18):
I don't like to be negative but I would give Virgin 24 odd months before they wind up domestic.
I really can't see the point other than a dig at BA.If BMI could not make it work how will Virgin.

Well the contract with Aer Lingus is for 3 years.... and BMI couldnt make it work because they were filling alot of seats carrying other airlines passengers. At least will be connnecting them to their own long haul network - much like what BA does. Virgin know short haul will not make money, but they will also have a very good picture of what the wetlease will cost and what amount of passengers currently connect on BA (or used ot on BD).


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8030 times:
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One of the conditions of BA buying BMI was some domestic slots for competition. Since Virgin got lots of feed from BMI they needed their own feed domestically.

User currently online1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1006 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7959 times:
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Quoting anstar (Reply 20):
Actually it does have something to do with BA.... they bought the carrier that was providing domestic feed to VS.

So what ?

I guess VS should have bought BD via a decent offer then.

If a carrier decided to commence operations at FRA would the Bundestag and Brussels force LH to surrender rights and slots ?


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7937 times:
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Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 17):
In order to provide more slots for new routes it would be better to only have one UK airline on each route, as there would still be competition to help keep prices reasonable.

Oh that it were so simple.
A significant % of BA long haul routes operate to points where the foreign carrier is an alliance partner or even worse from a competition perspective Joint Venture Partner.

In the market place VS remain an effective competitor on those selected routes (All high yield and heavy O & D demand) out of LHR.

The incorporation of bmi domestic feed into BA operations has also had a negative effect on VS regional feed.

Whilst it is true BA are required to offer interline domestic feed (At commercial rates i might add), the remedy slots were part of the take over agreement.
Therefore it would blatantly obvious VS should consider replacing the bmi feed with their own brand.

For the Virgin Group (As opposed to the airline) there would also be the opportunity to replace some of the about to be lost rail franchise capacity.

Of course because of the bent franchising rail process they have since retained the WCML rail franchise with an extension for a further two years.
They now have the prospect of securing an opportunity to re-tender with differing rules.

As to the opening question as part of an effective Hub and Spoke operation be that single airline/alliance or traditional interline operations domestic feed is an essential element of the structural arrangement.

Caveat the point where domestic air travel and feed becomes effective is where ground travel times are 3 hours and beyond.

Manchester is at that tipping point (For road travel, however not rail ), added to which that city and region creates size-able corporate traffic and there remains market for some O & D as well.

Leeds may yet be slot sitting however we shall see. Clearly the Banking sectors (Halifax) may have some potential.

As for Newcastle for BA that's clearly feed in the main these days.

The current Nationalised ECML rail serve is fast and very cheap compared to the WCML and Newcastle -London just just over that tipping time of 3 hours (By 10 minutes or so ) via rail. Its a long drive by road and certainly needs an overnight each end !

All journeys between London and Scotland by ground are way over the tipping point and air is the ONLY way to achieve a return within the same day.
There remains real O & D and transfer opportunities to these parts that only air can ever offer.
Thats why BA fly to these parts from LHR/LGW and LCY multiple times a day. And the existence of EZY and Cityjet in the market place.

Scotland- London very much meets the criteria of an essential aIr route and will remain so for a VERY LONG TIME.

Ironically in the context of domestic services operating expressly as feeder -Too much connecting traffic may make for an un-economic operation !

It was said bmi had bums on seats between GLA-LHR and at times more than they could handle however could never make money since they all went onto other *A without sufficient payment for the domestic sector.

If VS are smart with there accounting they may actually loose less money on the domestic routes by NOT offering to feed alliances other than at commercial rates themselves.
Yes that means fares from the regions with a VS connection will need to increase.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7911 times:
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Quoting 1400mph (Reply 22):
If a carrier decided to commence operations at FRA would the Bundestag and Brussels force LH to surrender rights and slots ?

Depending on the terms possibly !

In fact Lufthansa HAVE offered slots recently in anti trust claims

Read here:

http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...rankfurt-nyc-slots-for-competitors

and here

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...nental-antitrust-approval-bid.html


25 1400mph : Those reports you link referencing anti-trust are not quite the same thing as LH is making the first move. So are you saying LH would be required to
26 Post contains images CARST : Basically that is what happened with AB and LH, AB went to the court to get slots at FRA and route authority between TXL/HAM/NUE and FRA. To break th
27 rutankrd : That was the deal to ensure the take over met the requirement of the competition regulators in the UK/US AND EU. So yes they are of the same magnitud
28 rutankrd : Likely NOT as the competitive market conditions would have remained unaltered. As others have pointed out you cannot compare the UK and German market
29 shuttle9juliet : Reminds me off Pan Am buying National a bit...Never had a domestic airline to feed its long haul .
30 rutankrd : They did all right in a differing market place. US domestic deregulation did for them as they lost those cozy interline arrangements with Delta/North
31 1400mph : They 'just' bought it after it went BUST ! It's not like it was a hostile take-over in order to gain an advantage. The fact that it is nonsense is th
32 shuttle9juliet : National knew how to run its operation, when Pan Am took over it didn't have a clue about running it. Virgin really needs to join an alliance, as has
33 rutankrd : The negotiated governmental bi-lateral agreement (theres that regulated competitive environment again) allows for 2 carriers to operate between desig
34 1400mph : ....Lord King was further angered by the subsequent decision of the CAA to transfer two pairs of unused landing slots that British Airways held at To
35 VV701 : I wonder if VS will be able to sustain its flights from both ABZ and EDI to LHR. From ABZ it has the distinct disadvantage of only offering three retu
36 goosebayguy : If you're looking for Heathrow to be better utilised then how about a minimum limit on aircraft size? Say minimum 150 seats or even 200 seats. Even a
37 1400mph : The only requirement the EU 'should' insist upon is that the BA domestic operation at LHR is no more uncompetitive than other European carriers domes
38 shuttle9juliet : [quote=rutankrd,reply=33][ Good points..
39 rutankrd : Thats why the market IS regulated to prevent market dominance in the interests of the consumer and smaller competitors ! BA just dumped their loss ma
40 rutankrd : You make a wrongful assumption that it was Brussels. Both domestic and US ! competition authorities were involved in the BA/bmi exchange and setting
41 B747forever : Thanks for the link. Always good to back up statistics with a source.
42 Post contains images 1400mph : That's all very well and good but the market dominance of BA domestic at LHR due to the failure of its competitor is not the concern of BA. And if BA
43 rutankrd : Repeated twice and both times not true . The Group had registered huge losses for sure and DLH had had enough but they NEVER went bust ! Had they gon
44 shuttle9juliet : If BA hadn't got BMI, seemingly they were 1 week away from bankruptcy..I think Walsh quoted that somewhere,
45 1400mph : If BA hadn't stepped in and purchased BD LH would have liquidated BD and that's a fact. They were hemorrhaging too much cash. BD (unfortunately) was
46 vectismanpaul : How many times does one have to repeat that long and mid haul services from LHR need feed from Short haul Europe and Domestic!!! If a service is profi
47 rutankrd : The remedy slots are not free !
48 1400mph : No one is arguing your point ? I'm saying the extra flights VS will provide on London domestic are not needed in addition to BA at LHR and the LCC's
49 1400mph : Oh come on. They're a damn site cheaper than if BA had not purchased BD and the slots had gone into a 'highest bidder' scenario. Everyone knows VS li
50 shuttle9juliet : Very true.
51 Viscount724 : VS did (and does) have feed. They interline with virtually all major carriers. People seem to think that you have to feed your flights only with your
52 rutankrd : You pick up on the last random throw away statement - All businesses use similar commercial levers when the can -okay I give up ! Aside the fact BA n
53 rutankrd : Agreed many on these forums seem to miss the importance of traditional interlining in the world of Alliances. VS codeshared with CO for many years an
54 shuttle9juliet : [quote=rutankrd,reply=52][/quot I didn't say that, Walsh did...not me..
55 rutankrd : I know and referred to WW - Willie Walsh - I certain Irish gentleman !
56 shuttle9juliet : Ha ha
57 LJ : I don't actually understand your point when you include AMS, CDG and MAD. At AMS KL is required to give slots ("a competitive number") if an airline
58 cosyr : Personally, I think LHR has done the best job of any major airport in the world of getting the most out of their slots. Do any props even fly into LHR
59 1400mph : Exactly. Totally needless. An airline with only 20 daily departures most of which involve some of the most easily sold routes in the world does not n
60 anstar : Well if LHR were going to gob Gibent hey have a 3 year contract with Aer Lingus is there something that you know that VS don't? Hyperthetical quesiton
61 rutankrd : All points agreed There is a subscriber on the dried fruit site that bears some similarity with 1400mph . Neither gets the COMMERCIAL imperative of a
62 1400mph : Except that there is no possible way VS could have absorbed BD and lasted longer than about a week ? Just more hot air on their part. It always amaze
63 Post contains links VV701 : Not practical. For example BA have 44 aircraft with less than 150 seats and 108 aircraft with less than 200 seats currently operating out of LHR. The
64 rutankrd : Clearly the 80% minimum load factor is a nonsense, however the airport operator already uses pricing differential tools to encourage use of larger ai
65 VV701 : Looking at the orders would take you back even further. BA ordered 39 319s and 20 320s and took out 129 319/320/321 options in August 1998. It confir
66 Richard28 : I disagree. VS and BA competing at LHR has been fantastic news for passengers on both carriers. From this competition came flat beds in J class, Prem
67 1400mph : I applaud competition I don't applaud 'this' (VS) competition. VS would have liked to have kept LHR in a time warp ref UK based airlines membership o
68 anstar : I'd say with DL as a 49% stake holder, a new domestic network and a JV with DL across the atlantic it certainly will be keeping BA on their toes.
69 1400mph : There are no additional slots/increase in capacity as a result of DL's acquisition. Besides we had all this with SQ and they did nothing but regret t
70 finnishway : This is easier said than done, but why don't they move cargo flights to LGW or STN?
71 rutankrd : There are very FEW pure cargo rotations through LHR these days. Just CX /SQ/KE and a few late evening/weekend EAT/BA joint services a week. None are
72 anstar : I didn't say it would increase their slots. Just saying that by having a partnership with DL - it makes then a stronger carrier across the atlantic a
73 1400mph : Yes am aware of that. I just personally find it rather amusing and highly typical of VS to vehemently oppose something and then in woefully delayed r
74 rutankrd : Couldn't agree more DL will ensure their board members and investments meet with their expectations. They will demand detailed and costed explanation
75 rutankrd : If breaches of laws/regulations are taking place and there is clear evidence - YES its a duty to inform the appropriate authorities and the financial
76 LJ : Moreover, I expect that once VS is in Skyteam, some slots will reshuffle so that the slots used by AF/KL for their slot sitting flights will be used
77 LHRFlyer : With a new CEO from outside the company and three directors placed on the board by Delta it is going to be very interesting to see what happens at Vir
78 rutankrd : Not quite LHR and indeed Europe has two long haul arrival banks - The early AM is primarily from the West with a later afternoon bank from Eastern As
79 anstar : AS I posted above - DL will be far more active than SQ as a shareholder. No disrespect but I think you can only blame SQ for not making more of it. I
80 1400mph : Rather a shame that VS were involved in the same activity then. No wonder nobody wants them in their alliance ! They could have accomplished this wit
81 david_itl : CAA provisional statistics say 5962 passengers in December. In the unlikely scenario of 3 daily services a day from 9th December including the holida
82 anstar : I agree. I believe they will gain alot from the new CEO and having DL on the board. If it is anything like the changes at Virgin Australia in the las
83 Post contains images 1400mph : Do you think they will concentrate more on what VS is doing rather than BA ? You guys know I'm just winding you up right ? I do enjoy a good VS / BA b
84 N1120A : Unless and until a high (at least 125-150 mph) speed rail line is put into LHR from these places, there need to be domestic flights for feed. Most mon
85 Post contains images 1400mph : How can you possibly say BA has a monopoly on anything ? They operate many of the most competitive routes in the world. BA were buying a broken airli
86 rutankrd : BA and oneworld partners could be said to be Complex monopoly out of LHR (Equally *A at FRA/MUC/ZRH or Skyteam at AMS/CDG/FCO) A complex monopoly is s
87 rutankrd : Existing ECML runs at 125mph both diesel and electrics. Current electric vehicles can run at 140mph however requires in cab signalling technology acr
88 Post contains links VV701 : While not disputing the point being made, the bulk of UK air freight does NOT go via STN/EMA. Almost two thirds of all UK air freight does go through
89 rutankrd : bulk UK freight One small word makes a difference ! And refer to It remains remarkable that LHR handles almost 1.5 million tonnes with so few dedicat
90 Post contains links VV701 : The CAA figures exclude all freight carried to or from the airports by road. They only include freight carried in the cargo holds of passenger aircra
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