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What's Going On In CLE - Part 2  
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5222 posts, RR: 7
Posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 17853 times:

So there's kinda ... sorta good news from UA - not that it's worth a press release or anything..

In the last couple of weeks UA has reloaded essentially all of last year's flights and frequencies for the 2013 summer schedule. This is a huge improvement over the current post-holiday schedule which reduced some spoke routes to two dailies. By summer most spokes will be back up to four dailies minimum, just a few with little O&D at two or three.

Better yet, perhaps, the Cal pilot bid package just put out keeps CLE above 200 737 CA/FO slots. It is reduced by about 10 slots from the previous bid but remains at a healthy level.

It would be nice to see some growth this summer, but, with the 787 giving the schedulers fits, I guess CLE should be happy with what we see so far.


Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
254 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5222 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 17729 times:

An interesting comment from today's earnings webcast, a comment I'm not sure management really wanted to make: the real reason for the extra-large schedule reduction post-Christmas and the very gradual add-backs was to improve performance reliability. They cut the system sked back to what they thought they could actually manage efficiently.


Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlinejetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2733 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 17674 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 1):
An interesting comment from today's earnings webcast, a comment I'm not sure management really wanted to make: the real reason for the extra-large schedule reduction post-Christmas and the very gradual add-backs was to improve performance reliability. They cut the system sked back to what they thought they could actually manage efficiently.

This past summer was way too much too soon. I think the workgroups are still exhausted from this recent "summer from hell".



No info
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 17639 times:

They have been sending alot of CLE rampers to EWR lately for widebody training, not that this means anything but it's a good sign.


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5222 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 17392 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
Better yet, perhaps, the Cal pilot bid package just put out keeps CLE above 200 737 CA/FO slots. It is reduced by about 10 slots from the previous bid but remains at a healthy level.

Correction: no reduction in lines.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 818 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 17385 times:
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Quoting cle757 (Reply 3):
They have been sending alot of CLE rampers to EWR lately for widebody training, not that this means anything but it's a good sign.

That is a good sign. Granted, it could be preparedness for diversions but perhaps 767 service to FRA is not as far away as we might think. Perhaps SFO - CLE - FRA? Though right now I would certainly love to see a seasonal HNL - CLE - FRA!!!



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5222 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 17348 times:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 5):
That is a good sign. Granted, it could be preparedness for diversions but perhaps 767 service to FRA is not as far away as we might think.

Fingers crossed, but I'd bet the 787 grounding has the company holding any spare capacity in reserve for now. I bet they're looking for ways to hang onto the 762's that were slated to be retired. Maybe next year.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8095 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 17287 times:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 5):
Granted, it could be preparedness for diversions

That's absolutely what it is. CLE won't get widebodies, and it's simple to see why. When the hub was handling thousands of pax more a day in 2000/2001, it didn't get widebodies. When the hub had service to LHR and CDG, it didn't get widebodies. Why now, when it's at its smallest, when the economy is at its worst, would it get widebodies?



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User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 818 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 17222 times:
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Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
That's absolutely what it is. CLE won't get widebodies, and it's simple to see why. When the hub was handling thousands of pax more a day in 2000/2001, it didn't get widebodies. When the hub had service to LHR and CDG, it didn't get widebodies. Why now, when it's at its smallest, when the economy is at its worst, would it get widebodies?

Because back in 2001 there were not any wide bodies available for CLE, CLE today still has good volume of business passenger and cargo traffic to Europe and the CLE station has one of the cheapest operating costs in the system.



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineswacle From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 368 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 17165 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
That's absolutely what it is. CLE won't get widebodies, and it's simple to see why. When the hub was handling thousands of pax more a day in 2000/2001, it didn't get widebodies. When the hub had service to LHR and CDG, it didn't get widebodies. Why now, when it's at its smallest, when the economy is at its worst, would it get widebodies?

To add to the above post, from what I understand UA trucks loads of cargo to other hubs to get it out. Without international flights, the return of domestic widebodys from United to ORD and/or EWR would kill two birds with one stone: supply a premium product for business travelers and allow a lot of that freight currently trucked to be loaded on flights.



Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5222 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 17015 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
Why now, when it's at its smallest, when the economy is at its worst, would it get widebodies?

I don't know about widebodies - their use domestically is becoming rarer and rarer; but 13 RJs plus a couple mainliners a day on CLE-ORD has to be inefficient. I could see more mainline to the biggest traffic points.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1000 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 16937 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 10):
I don't know about widebodies - their use domestically is becoming rarer and rarer; but 13 RJs plus a couple mainliners a day on CLE-ORD has to be inefficient. I could see more mainline to the biggest traffic points.

CO will only add 16 CR7 size RJ's in 2013 (mostly in Q2) so there may be some change at least from the ERJ. Of course, some new 739ERs also. Hope some of those make it to that market...specifically took the 738 flight on TH for that reason.

I did see some E170's on IAH>CLE in July for the first time ever. I don't view that as a positive, still same # of flights (6).


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5222 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 16785 times:

Quoting swacle (Reply 9):
To add to the above post, from what I understand UA trucks loads of cargo to other hubs to get it out.

And without customer demand, UA (and freight forwarders) will continue to do so. There has to be a need for more direct service. Some major shipper has to step up and say "I can no longer tolerate multiple transfer points." That shipper would have to be big enough to threaten to charter regular dedicated aircraft. So far, that hasn't happened and I don't know how likely it would be.

One shipper (mostly inbound) that is growing like a giant radioactive mushroom is Cleveland Heart Labs. Their operation is mostly domestic so far, but it has the potential to make a difference.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8095 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 16756 times:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 8):
Because back in 2001 there were not any wide bodies available for CLE, CLE today still has good volume of business passenger and cargo traffic to Europe and the CLE station has one of the cheapest operating costs in the system.

I see UA adding EXPRESS aircraft to hub routes that were previously 100% mainline, including EWR. How does anyone figure that when an airline is reducing capacity they would consider widebodies? I mean, seriously, we're taking a route that used to have 757's on it and doing it with Embraers now. How anyone could read that as "we're gunna get widebodies!" is beyond me.



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User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 544 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 16724 times:

Quote:
Better yet, perhaps, the Cal pilot bid package just put out keeps CLE above 200 737 CA/FO slots. It is reduced by about 10 slots from the previous bid but remains at a healthy level.

Massey (or others)--what does "CA/FO" slots mean?

Any update on the new FIS? Could that be a partial consideration point in LH's or UA's plans?


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5222 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 16671 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 14):
Massey (or others)--what does "CA/FO" slots mean?

In old fashioned terms: pilot and co-pilot,



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1000 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16642 times:

Anyone have any ideas on the # of pax UA will put throught CLE vs. 2012 w/this schedule? It is good to see the same # of flights for CLE despite challenging economic conditions + UA decreasing domestic capacity in 2013. Looks like a survival year w/o a lot of changes overall.

Others seem to be on the upswing in Northeast Ohio DL is upgauging (ATL) and adding routes (LGA), additional capacity on CAK>ATL, and will more than likely upgauge CLE>MSP when the 717's or CR9's come along. US has upgauged CLE>CLT to mostly 737/ER9.

It will be interesting to see if CLE airport system can manage a few upgrades in 2013. 30% of the long term parking lot is blocked off w/barrels so that needs to be addressed. I'd imagine if there were ever going to be a big splash (FIS or TATL service or ??) they'd coordinate that w/the Medical Mart/Convention Center launch in October. The Center should push some positive traffic to CLE in 2014.


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16640 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
I see UA adding EXPRESS aircraft to hub routes that were previously 100% mainline, including EWR. How does anyone figure that when an airline is reducing capacity they would consider widebodies? I mean, seriously, we're taking a route that used to have 757's on it and doing it with Embraers now. How anyone could read that as "we're gunna get widebodies!" is beyond me.

This is happening at all the hubs now, not just CLE!



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlinehighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16635 times:

There seems to be a a segment of Cleveland air travelers who have come to believe the lack of widebody service to CLE is a deliberate airline conspiracy, hence a broadside to their civic ego. Certainly if more seats and ASMs were to enter the CLE to west coast markets, it would benefit passengers by helping drive down airfares. Unfortunately, United is as sophisticated as the rest in downsizing equipment on any given route to maximize yields (and maximize passenger discomfort.) Today sitting in a 767-300 coach class seat doing .80 Mach isn't apprecialbly different than sitting in a 737-800 coach class seat doing .78 Mach.

User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 473 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 16558 times:

I gotta be honest, sometimes I wonder if CLE citizens would be better off without a hub. The fares are ridiculously outrageous here, I'm tired of driving to CAK or PIT to pay what I would consider to be a reasonable fare. Flying to Florida is downright ridiculous compared to PIT, $200 per person more expensive.

Having a United hub is like a hidden tax. Before the merger, it wasn't this bad. I'm sure UA knows what they're doing on pricing, so what if it went away. . . .


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8095 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 16542 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 19):
I gotta be honest, sometimes I wonder if CLE citizens would be better off without a hub. The fares are ridiculously outrageous here

I agree. Airfares to a lot of places (BOS, NYC, DC, etc) are regularly almost double what they were only a couple of years ago, and often times more than that. I'm all for the airline making money, but 900$ to LaGuardia?!

I wouldn't miss UA much. Their service is sub-par anymore, and I'm on an RJ most of the time anyway. I'm not paying 900$ to fly a freakin' RJ, so I wind up connecting or driving elsewhere. If UA going away meant more SWA, more mainline, and perhaps a JetBlue entrance, I'm down.



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User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 544 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 16442 times:

ncflyer and N766UA - GROWTH brings competition, competition brings lower prices. The road for growth in the city of cleveland is through a strong hub that will attract new businesses. After which passenger demand will be high enough for new carriers to compete on strong routes. Think long term. A short term gain to save a few pennies may end up costing you a lot more when you're back to one carrier on the route and the demand is lower, giving you not only higher prices but fewer frequencies as well. CLE would NOT be better off without the UA hub.

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5222 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16393 times:

If pricey tickets are on your money, you shop around. If it's on the client's money (the client you are billing $400 or more an hour), your client will pay the CLE premium and come out ahead. CLE being a big legal and financial/accounting city, their are lots of people billing clients for their services. The airlines know this and prices accordingly. Other corp. travelers get negotiated rates. The little guy gets taken to the cleaners, but doesn't he always?

If you really want a bargain and can plan ahead, you can get a decent fare out of CLE. Otherwise, the new oligopoly we call the airline industry is NOT going to give their product away the way they used to a few years ago.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3783 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 16365 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 21):
ncflyer and N766UA - GROWTH brings competition, competition brings lower prices. The road for growth in the city of cleveland is through a strong hub that will attract new businesses.

Wasn't CLE still a pretty strong hub back in the mid to late 1990's? The passenger totals for CLE only go back to 1999, but in that year the passenger total was 13,020,285 compared to just over 9.2 million last year.

But if you look at the Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH MSA, it has been slowly shrinking for the past 15 years. The last year that Cleveland's metro population showed an increase from the previous year was 1996.

source

If a strong hub that attracts new businesses is the key to growth for the Cleveland metro area, why wasn't it growing during the last half of the 1990's when CLE was a stronger hub?

LoneStarMike


User currently offlineDiesel33 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 16343 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
I see UA adding EXPRESS aircraft to hub routes that were previously 100% mainline, including EWR.

I thought all routes between (S-CO) hubs had to be all mainline? Is this changing with the new pilot contract?


25 jetmatt777 : I think they are saying those are sUA flights, to get around the contract. Just like the 700's in IAH...those are "sUA" flights, so as to not infring
26 MasseyBrown : CLE was still a heavy basic industry manufacturing economy then. It has taken 40+ years to transition away from that. The big closures were in the 70
27 ncflyer : Greenair, how's that working out for RDU, AUS---- cities that are growing like absolute weeds without a hub, and that have plenty of airline competit
28 N766UA : No it doesn't. Look at PIT and CVG when they were fortresses. They had zero competition and some of the highest fares in the country. Now both are at
29 Post contains links LoneStarMike : Well, adding to the discussion here's a couple of ancient (by internet standards) articles that kind of back up the points that ncflyer and N766UA are
30 greenair727 : Metro CLE has been stable, not shrinking. The US Commerce Dept definition of Cleveland should not be used as it excludes key counties that surround C
31 Post contains links and images LoneStarMike : OK, thank you greenair727. Basically, instead of looking at Cleveland's MSA population, I should have been looking at Cleveland's Combined Statistica
32 N766UA : There is a lot of CLE-BOS traffic, including MHT and PVD. The problem I see is that B6 comes in, UA price matches them or ups the number of flights,
33 greenair727 : This doesn't really make sense. It means that if UA de-hubbed CLE, but still served CLE-BOS, B6 could be very profitable on the route, even though UA
34 MasseyBrown : The CSA numbers used to describe almost perfectly the CLE traffic cachment. Since CAK has emerged as a significant player, it no longer does - at lea
35 michman : If DTW just served the City of Detroit, the NW/DL hub would have closed long ago. It's about catchment area, not just the city the airport happens to
36 N766UA : Nobody's saying airlines don't start new flights at hubs, but that has no bearing on the discussion. The issue we're debating is whether or not a hub
37 fun2fly : What is the construction in the offices behind the stores on Concourse B all about?
38 ncflyer : Does anyone know, why does UA fly so many small jets from ORD to CLE, rather than fewer large ones? Love the hourly service, but it just seems like an
39 cle757 : And they are all full, alot have been upgraded to the CR7 but still more could be 737/A320s.
40 fun2fly : It's weird...w/1200 pax per day...either have10x A319/73G or 15x mix of a/c. I'd bet everyone would vote 10x A319/73G. Must not have the plane or it
41 greenair727 : My point was that the presence of the hub will help grow the local economy which in turn will grow demand. Of course, growing demand will benefit the
42 MasseyBrown : I think there is something to this point of view. ATL and CLT were hubs long before their supporting cities' economies were significant. You could pr
43 N766UA : Ah I see, yeah, that would definitely be true.
44 Post contains links MasseyBrown : There's interesting data in a Brookings study (cited by Pitrules in the current PIT thread) that applies to CLE. http://www.brookings.edu/research/int
45 fun2fly : Good study Massey...you'd have to think that it is perhaps a bit better than even you state if CO put 2x 757's on the routing with 350 daily seats. S
46 MasseyBrown : What bothers me is Brookings CLE traffic numbers are higher than the numbers provided by another usually very reliable a.net poster in an earlier thre
47 MasseyBrown : Undoubtedly CO used heaps of connecting traffic. I'm trying to present hard data and very conservative estimates of market stimulation to demonstrate
48 N766UA : How can one possibly talk about numbers like this knowing that the service once existed and was cancelled? It's a bit like Drudge Report giving Romne
49 joeman : Because: and we don't want to dilute the level of flight options going thru our preferred hubs and the connecting passengers that sustain those fligh
50 jayunited : The main reason why UA uses so many RJ's on this route is because we don't have enough narrow bodies to provide the almost hourly service to CLE from
51 MasseyBrown : Lots of routes which are not flown could be operated profitably, but the airline feels that alternative routes are even more profitable, i.e. the fif
52 Post contains links LoneStarMike : I happened to notice CLE posted their passenger totals for 2012. I can't make the direct link work on a.net, but you can go to http://www.clevelandair
53 MasseyBrown : The year over year drop for December was surprising; I believe CLE had been regularly beating the prior year since last July. And it's not just a drop
54 fun2fly : Dropoff 5 Years in a row...not a good trend if the data is correct. I do find it a bit hard to beleive w/all the services added that more pax didn't f
55 MasseyBrown : Also CLE reports a couple of hundred thousand more pax than the DoT Transtats data base does. They must be counting charters and private aircraft, whe
56 Post contains links cle757 : This may help http://www.cleveland.com/brook-park/...ment_lik.html#incart_river_default
57 VC10DC10 : Sounds a lot more expensive than using trucks. Agreed. Unless the customers demand it, why fly freight when ground transportation is nearly as fast a
58 fun2fly : So, this may also help....supposedly 70 conventions booked (didnt find size or dates) "The mart will now be known as the Global Center for Health Inn
59 Highflier92660 : There are still times I wonder why Cleveland and the corporate hierarchy of northeast Ohio can't leverage a better quid pro quo with United for more m
60 ncflyer : I'd argue that the passenger counts are falling because UA is squeezing a lot of yield out of the marketplace, driving pax to PIT and CAK who are unwi
61 swacle : That is misleading. WN is at 16 daily flights on the April base schedule (4/14-5/28, give or take a day) due to adding a 3rd BNA and an 8th MDW in th
62 izbtmnhd : I'm not quite sure how competiton from CAK is bad for Clevelanders even if it's bad for CLE itself. CAK isn't 400 miles away from Cleveland or over a
63 Post contains images MasseyBrown : Sucky name But this is huge for the city and the airport. I suspect it is a major reason why UA is still hanging around.
64 ncflyer : Touche on Akron, but not on Pittsburgh. Siphoning off traffic dilutes the investment the region is able to make in building a strong airport and gett
65 Post contains links MasseyBrown : http://www.cleveland.com/business/in...opkins_airport.html#incart_m-rpt-2 CLE is opening a non-airline operated 'lounge' for Concourse A and B. This a
66 Post contains images Sligo : Airspace Lounge posted an image on their facebook page.
67 N766UA : Too bad it can't go near/incorporate the old observation deck.
68 greenair727 : Is the observation deck at the end of "B" still closed?
69 Sligo : Good question. This lounge seems to be perched out over B and looking onto A, but at the main terminal...and that would be good in term s of access t
70 MasseyBrown : Hmm ,,, Seems as if the A and B Concourse airlines might want to work some kind of deal for their club members to get in free or at a reduced rate. Ev
71 N766UA : Absolutely, has been for over a decade. You can't get into the inside anymore, either, it's been secured by a SIDA door for 5 years now, probably. It
72 fun2fly : I guess that answers the earlier post of what is all the construction in the area behind the shops on B. US, AA, DL UA clubs of the past were only do
73 Highflier92660 : An Airspace Lounge sounds like a pleasing option, particularly to those passengers departing in the B Concourse where there isn't an abundance of rest
74 swacle : Judging from the rendering, I think it is in the old Presidents Club (?) just after A security. Looks to be about the right size and the terminal view
75 greenair727 : Didn't CLE have at one time -- UA, NW, and AA -- lounges all at the same time? -- i'm thinking late 80's, but can't remember for sure as it was so lon
76 Post contains links Sligo : I think you're thinking of the Admirals Club that was once there after A sec'y. The doors still look like it. The doors of the old US Airways Club fu
77 Post contains links and images SANFan : It's curious that nobody has yet mentioned the new route to PDX that begins June 6. There's a thread about the new service and I would have thought th
78 fun2fly : Funny all the a.net nuts missed this. Good news for CLE. Suprised no SAN this summer, but PDX is great. I wonder why this one was so quiet? I saw EWR
79 fun2fly : Looks like UA is pulling another 2 ERJ135's out of storage...is CLE seeing these and the other reintroduced units?
80 Post contains links and images YNGguins : I posted is on the PIT thread, but it is worth discussing on here too. Interesting study out of YNG that shows 60% of the leakage in the Youngstown-Wa
81 flight152 : Do you have a source on that?
82 izbtmnhd : Isn't PIT alot closer physically to most of the Youngstown area compared to CLE? It makes sense more people in that area utilize PIT if you consider
83 MasseyBrown : Since WN arrived in PIT, PIT's average fare has gone down, while CLE's has gone up. Youngstown fliers are (sensibly) going for the bargain. The dista
84 joeman : This is fantastic news. Unfortunately, and as usual, it seems to be at the expense of a severe reduction in CLE-PHX for the same time period (for now
85 Sligo : ....that's too bad....
86 Post contains links YNGguins : Here is a link that should work: www.vindy.com/news/2013/feb/24/an-up...ted-study-by-a-consultant-working/ PIT is closer for folks living in Mahoning
87 MasseyBrown : The resumption of CLE-PHX is in the schedule for 8/27/13, the day after CLE-PDX ends. It does seem as if CLE-PHX (333 pax a day) could support year r
88 fun2fly : Used to be 2-3x daily for CO and 1x daily for America West and sometimes a WN seasonal. Now, not even one daily. Agreed, summer is tough, but this se
89 Post contains images point2point : Just to throw this in there as food for thought, what has happened with fares from the time that there used to be 2-3x daily for CO and 1x daily for
90 fun2fly : From UA: The airline's hub in Cleveland delivered the best performance for the month among United's eight domestic hubs with an average on-time arriva
91 steeler83 : Considering this is only about 900k more than what PIT handled, it goes to show what the majority of flying out of CLE must look like. How much of th
92 strfyr51 : it would make sense that CLE at least Be ABLE to handle any widebodies,UA Has even on an Ad Hoc basis to cover special routings ,Diversions etc. When
93 MasseyBrown : UA's latest weekly sked change has bumped CLE departures up to 200 on peak days from the post Christmas low of about 170. CLE has always been able to
94 Highflier92660 : Cleveland Hopkins made the news yesterday when United Airlines flight 132, a Boeing 757 from JFK to LAX, made an unscheduled stop after smoke in the c
95 antoniemey : Umm... I think that's "Hot in Cleveland"
96 fun2fly : It's hard to believe w/all the government $ around, CLE cannot get a new / expanded TSA check point at C terminal. The line was all the way past B Che
97 mbm3 : Saturday mornings are usually pretty crazy for Terminal C, as are Mondays as you indicated fun2fly. Given the 2 other checkpoints in close proximity a
98 MasseyBrown : I agree. Rickie Smith is no idiot; you have to assume there has been a CLE-UA discussion about this. Something like: CLE: "If we build a new FIS will
99 fun2fly : The TSA signs showing the wait times at the other gates were also inoperableto guide pax to shorter lines which is unacceptable. Why can't they just
100 ncflyer : The honest truth is CLE is a 1950s era structure, low ceilings, narrow hallways, undersized and poorly ventilated restrooms. Fixing security there for
101 xms3200 : CLE as a whole is a mystery on this planet, not only as far as the attention it gets on this forum, but the overall way the city of Cleveland runs the
102 N766UA : And yet it's really not that bad! Compared to LGA, half of JFK, half of BOS, half of IAD etc., Cleveland's really not as depressing as you make it so
103 joeman : You mean more attention than JFK, EWR, LGA, LAX, DEN, ORD, IAH, IAD, CLT, DFW...and more places where service levels have evolved up rather than cont
104 xms3200 : Very well said Joeman, I couldn't have said it better....In addition to the 20 year looming shutdown of the hub, intermittent international service a
105 Post contains images MasseyBrown : CLE is a long-running 'aviation soap opera'; and soap operas are very popular, human-sized entertainments filled with identifiable heroes and villain
106 Post contains links fun2fly : Did you tell that to PIT thread #25 also? Some more info released: WASHINGTON – The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) today announced fi
107 cle757 : The Pre check is already open..saw it yesterday!
108 greenair727 : Though real leadership and strategy beyond this impasse would be if Ricky Smith forged ahead making it a priority and actually building the facility.
109 fun2fly : I agree. Certainly the regional economic folks (CLE+, Global Cleveland, or what not) should be able to assist CLE with making it a priority. I don't
110 mbm3 : Long Live The Hublette! KCLE has been a favorite point of discussion on A.net and other sites for a lot of reasons, most of them, IN MY OPINION, based
111 mesaflyguy : But we have also seen 757s being put on more preimum and international routes where they come in handy. Plus, it seems they are using these ma]inline
112 cle757 : According to the IAM (Union) CLE is no longer a hub!
113 joeman : Looks like the UA operation is what it is...simply control of the market with jacked up fares and delightfully limited competition I cringe every tim
114 MasseyBrown : Since UA morphed into its current CLE mostly-O&D posture, we have not seen another airline challenge UA for a route. This summer WN is operating a
115 Post contains images point2point : I suppose that we could go on ad nauseum as to what constitutes a hub these days, but per the UA website, CLE is still listed as a hub, and is that w
116 joeman : Very good indeed for the carriers Too bad for a US/AA merged airline that they didn't treat PIT and STL in the same way...control of two large market
117 Antoniemey : It's also grouped with the hubs in UA's computer systems.
118 MasseyBrown : Cribbed from a post in an AA merger topic, assuming some traffic growth, here's another reason for CLE to persist: Average fares by UA hub (Q3, 2012)
119 joeman : IAH has HOU, IAD both DCA and BWI and EWR well...for competitive close by competition. Substantial CLE travellers use CAK and even PIT as alternative
120 ncflyer : Hear hear joeman!!! (I write 3 days before I drive two hours to PIT so I can save $450 on airfare for my party of three on a trip to the Caribbean)[Ed
121 michman : Recall that the Denver City Council cut a lease reduction deal with United in exchange for maintaining/adding flights. I'd say it's pretty clear that
122 fun2fly : Any chance we'll see CLE>SLC at any point? UA ran it for a year or so and DL did the same but it has been dormant for a good # of years. With UA an
123 joeman : Have a great time once you get there!!!! I have a friend whose kids recently came to Cleveland thru PIT and they were only coming from Virginia for g
124 Post contains images MasseyBrown : UA is certainly milking the market, but I can usually find a decent deal if I plan ahead. AA often has bargains if you don't mind making a connection.
125 Post contains links Sligo : It looks like the lounge has opened: http://boardingarea.com/blogs/thewan...ingaramean+(The+Wandering+Aramean)
126 Post contains links cle757 : Looks like CLE is getting nervous about United leaving...I think Jetblue would do well here! http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/money/co...ding-service-airpo
127 MasseyBrown : JetBlue might provide a couple of flights to JFK, BOS, and Florida. I doubt they would influence the bulk of CLE city-pair prices, probably not even
128 cle757 : Look at the Saturday schedule for CLE-IAH only one mainline, with Express Jet,Shuttle America and Skywest.
129 daver3188 : With the JetBlue rumors in CLE, this is what CLE Facebook page put up a few minutes ago. I have not seen the local article they are referring to, but
130 Post contains images MasseyBrown : Oops ... Sounds as if UA called up and said, "WTF??? Issue a 'clarification' immediately!!"
131 mbm3 : That report was awful at best. My inbox filled up with "what do you thinks" and I said while I would love to have Jetblue serve CLE, I do not think i
132 fun2fly : All this talk of JetBlue is interesting, but couldn't the same be accomplished by working with Southwest? Surely they could add a EWR, HOU or LAX to c
133 greenair727 : ^I'm not sure why the media made such a big deal out of JetBlue. (I agree that it was horribly written article and it displayed an incredible lack of
134 Sligo : If B6 likes CLE-NYC/BOS even if their average fare was at CAK's WN/FL's fare level to those same markets, then it's plausible for B6 to come in becaus
135 greenair727 : ^ a new service from CLE to bring back the pax taken by CAK--that would be refreshing and great to see.
136 mbm3 : These markets had terrible profits because of stupidly low fares as HP, WN and CO fought each other for Ma and Pa Kettle. I do not think they will un
137 joeman : See Below: and that is why there is CLE "attention" = public outcry on this forum, just as reiterated in multiple post above as the community even be
138 MasseyBrown : It's unlikely they would try a western flight. Their best shot would be using their E190's to BOS and Florida; JFK would only work with very low fare
139 jayunited : You are absolutely correct UA is not fighting for CLE. And what I find surprising is the fact the the CO executives who are now running UA are sittin
140 MasseyBrown : For now CLE is a good place to employ a number of the 50-seaters. When they are gone (2017 or so?), it remains to be seen whether UA will dedicate ne
141 joeman : CO didn't either as time went on. Only one of the 3 domestic hubs to be drastically reduced during the 2008 economy cuts. Nifty setup for a very long
142 YNGguins : Think YNG may have something to say about low fares in NEOHIO in due time. Leave you with that.
143 MasseyBrown : I hope YNG gets the service it deserves. I keep expecting a YNG-IAH flight to herald UA's return. Of course, UA isn't known for low fares.
144 YNGguins : That would be welcomed, but I speak of the effect YNG may have on low fares in Northeast Ohio. We shall see in due time.
145 Antoniemey : Presumably they ran into a similar issue in BNA? F9? NK? I doubt WN would go there at this point.... ORD, IAD, or EWR would seem more likely, but, he
146 fun2fly : Anyone know why they started E170's to IAH? Is it due to the fact they are funneling more transcon pax via DEN w/the extra lift they added there or s
147 mbm3 : I think it is a LOT because of DEN and ORD. Where CO used to funnel connecting flights through IAH, the merged airline now has more options and DEN i
148 YNGguins : I would imagine that ORD would be the first hub to return to YNG, although I would not be surprised if IAD were to get it first. Regarding the low fa
149 Post contains links greenair727 : Not much, but its something: new CLE-Traverse City Michigan flights for the summer---1x weekly: "(Traverse City, Michigan) March 19, 2013 – Cherry C
150 fun2fly : Even more random that 10 weeks of PDX service. Any idea what the reason behind this is all about?
151 MasseyBrown : Traverse City and the Grand Traverse Bay area have long been popular summer resorts for Clevelanders. I'm surprised they didn't make it two a week to
152 N766UA : I have no idea how 1x weekly service could even be worth the effort. It's Traverse City, not Antarctica.
153 MasseyBrown : I guess it works for resorts. UA does it for Nassau and San Juan; they did it for Quebec and Albuquerque for a couple of years. I bet they're operati
154 STT757 : Because the new pilot contract allows it, previously under CO's contract the company could not fly regional jets nonstop between hubs. Now they can.
155 Post contains links greenair727 : CLE Pax numbers for the latest published month (January) are up significantly YoY. This is good to see. Is this an anomaly or a trend? They don't publ
156 LoneStarMike : Actually, they do, but the info only stays on the website for one month until January's totals are posted. Last year, CLE had 9.010,077 passengers. (
157 greenair727 : ^its pretty annoying---i wish Port Control would just post all the data like many other airport authorities...
158 Post contains links fun2fly : Interesting update on the Conv Center and Medical Mart...see slides on advance bookings at the bottom of the article: http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahog
159 Sligo : Sorry if I am digging up an old topic re CLE... but has there ever been anything on the drawing board for a DL 757 to CDG a la PIT (which is subsidize
160 PITrules : It is not.
161 Sligo : "was" subsidized then as opposed to "is"?
162 PITrules : Yes, if we're going back to 2009. As for CLE, I think AA to LHR would be a better option than DL to CDG.
163 Post contains images MasseyBrown : So do I, but saying so got me laughed out of an AA thread. What got me thinking was the possibility of AA tagging another city that formerly had Lond
164 PITrules : I don't think AA/BA would be interested in a tag or round robin at all, but an airline like Condor (which previously served CLE in the 80's) could con
165 N766UA : I really doubt that. Condor takes Europeans TO destinations, and they love Florida, the Carribean, etc… not Ohio.
166 PITrules : I don't see why they couldn't take people in CLE and/or PIT TO Europe, in conjunction with tour operators. Both cities have had scheduled charters to
167 N766UA : That just isn't their MO. The entire Thomas Cook group caters to European tourists, not Americans.
168 fun2fly : Big UA changes in the form of downgauging Mainline (Just looked at Oct): - CLE>IAH down from 6x 737 to 3x 737 and 3x CR7 - CLE>EWR 6x 737 to 3x
169 Post contains images MasseyBrown : The UA changes are the result of the new pilots contract. Under the old one, all hub-to-hub flights had to be mainline; under the new one there is a p
170 steeler83 : It sucks to see a reduction in mainline flying between CLE and some of the other UA hubs. Regarding any prospects on CLE to Europe, UA considers CLE t
171 flight152 : You should probably check your sources again. UA also serves YUL, CUN and NAS from Cleveland.
172 Post contains images steeler83 : Yep, just finished looking at the CLE page over on Wikipedia. Big woops on my part... In any other event, I noticed something else. United does have
173 N766UA : Looks like RSW and TPA both fall to 1 daily RJ come August. Has that ever happened? Those 2 have always been mainline as long as I can remember.
174 steeler83 : What type of regional jet, might I ask?
175 ncflyer : Cle and its citizens are basically paying dearly to be a hub, these cutbacks are yet more evidence. Truth be told the city's service and pax counts ar
176 joeman : Some hub huh?
177 N766UA : CRJ7. Better than the WSCOD, but still not very promising, and 1 a day is just pathetic.
178 Post contains links and images flyguy89 : Condor, Thomas Cook and the likes almost solely operates on a European point-of-sale basis, marketing to American tourists would mark a major change
179 steeler83 : One CR7 daily to RSW and Tampa? 200 people a day travel between CLE and Ft. Myers and 300 travel between CLE and TPA, and they're only going to have
180 MasseyBrown : CLE-Europe traffic has been about 200-250 PDEW for years, so there is O&D demand for one flight at least. There is substantial business to Israel
181 PITrules : I'm curious why there would be any measurable amount of demand between two hospitals with the same name on the other side of the Earth? There might v
182 steeler83 : That should be enough for a 763, no? Enough feed at CLE, plus the major LH operation at FRA...
183 MasseyBrown : The Abu Dhabi operations will be partly staffed with Cleveland employees on a rotating basis. The employees and their families will come and go for v
184 greenair727 : So if that's the case, why not a fill a planeload of European tourists to visit Cleveland? As far as American cities go, Cleveland is definitely one
185 flyguy89 : Not meaning any offense, but I doubt they could fill a plane of European tourists to Cleveland (or Cincinnati, Pittsburgh or Indianapolis for that ma
186 N766UA : 100% true. Cleveland's got a lot of great things to do, but they tend to be widely dispersed, and you have to go FIND them. Cleveland's by no means a
187 greenair727 : ^Cleveland does a VERY POOR job promoting itself in Europe. And as a result, while most folks there know of CLE, NYC or Miami or Chicago would rank hi
188 N766UA : The months of October, November, December, January, February, March, and most of April disagree. Cleveland does a very poor job of promoting itself i
189 MasseyBrown : Taken from the ClevelandPlus website: "Welcoming more than 30.6 million visitors a year, the Cleveland Plus region is a must-see destination for innum
190 flyguy89 : It's not so much that as it is there's no point in wasting the money to promote Cleveland in a way it's never going to be successful in doing. Clevel
191 steeler83 : Not to mention, New York, Boston, Chicago, DC, and even Miami and Philadelphia all have very decent public transit systems, which provide direct acce
192 Post contains images MasseyBrown : A couple of years ago my wife and I went only to Bristol and Cardiff and had a great eight day vacation, esp. in Wales. So there must be a couple or
193 Post contains images flyguy89 : I'm with you man, give me Toulouse over Paris any day
194 Post contains images MasseyBrown : Interesting report today that the US is opening a customs clearance facility in Abu Dhabi, like those in Canada, Ireland, etc. Wild fantasy: I wonder
195 Highflier92660 : It's probably a seasonal equipment change during slow traffic months. I hope. I also note that my May 1st UAL flight from RSW to CLE has seen Boeing
196 steeler83 : They haven't swapped out a 737 with a CR2, did they? DL pulled one of those on my trip to SEA via DTW. I won't rehash, tho; I posted that story on he
197 greenair727 : What is the Brookings data based on? Reservations? Tickets? If I bought a ticket, say, on UA: CLE-IAD-DXB---I'm sure the numbers would capture me. Bu
198 LoneStarMike : It goes by itineraries, so if you have two unlinked itineraries, it wouldn't capture you, I don't think. This is what the Brookings report says about
199 fun2fly : The facts are that international service are driven by large corporate contracts (see LHR>RDU). UA has the mainstay of the contracts in town and ge
200 ncflyer : The reason AA or whatever wouldn't add on, is UA would squash them like a bug--- see Virgin Am on the EWR to SFO run-- and AA knows it. This is the pr
201 MasseyBrown : It remains to be seen whether UA will fight for a CLE market. WN announced a CLE-LAS for the summer and UA obligingly cut their service from 3 to 2 d
202 joeman : CHEERS!!!!!!!
203 michman : When has DL ever flown a CR2 between DTW and SEA??
204 Post contains images steeler83 : My originating airport was PHL with DTW being the connecting DL hub. PHL-DTW was initially supposed to be an A319, but THAT was swapped out with a tu
205 mbm3 : I do not think UA wants to fight for the CLE market. I am seeing fares to some markets 2 - 3x their competition, to the point that it can be cheaper
206 cle757 : I hope someone in the city has a plan b because United has no plans for the future in CLE. Less mainline flying all the time, no updates to the facili
207 fun2fly : Add in RJ flying to hubs, it sure does not paint a pretty picture. If they were adding CR7's to current RJ routes, OK, but they are not. One thought.
208 ncflyer : I wish someone in the business community of CLE would wake up. Instead they have a ludicrous website, unitedforthehub.com, i've tried to submit an em
209 cle757 : I think the city has done alot to keep UA here, but UA doesn't seem interested. The only problems with CLE is that its stuck between ORD and EWR and i
210 joeman : I'm with you ncflyer....free publicity for high airfares and stagnating the market by doing so, limited competition, eroding & poor nonstop avail
211 MasseyBrown : There is a thread on "the other board" that shows load factors by UA hub for the first nine months of 2012. CLE comes in last, with loads in the high
212 fun2fly : I hear you and I don't. Flew CLE>BHM for $360 (realize that is a WN market, but DL was the same price), booked the family vacation to LAX for $379
213 MasseyBrown : AA and DL I'm sure are watching. UA's choice of 9 abreast is the kind of action that will get the Congress back into the "passenger bill of rights" b
214 Post contains links fun2fly : Keep pouring $ into this one... Burke Lakefront Airport gets $20 million grant to improve runway ... The $20,015,244 grant will be used to improve the
215 N766UA : I'm all for JetBlue, personally. They could stand to have a midwestern presence, anyway, and CLE's the eastern-most midwest city, so it wouldn't be t
216 greenair727 : That is crazy. Another--and similarly--annoying thing about UA is the 'economy plus'. if you book an economy ticket on them, then try to pick a seat,
217 Post contains links YNGguins : CLE has this going for them: http://www.tribtoday.com/page/conten...ntry-charter-flights.html?nav=5021 United and YNG were close on multiple occasions
218 Antoniemey : I think that partially depends on where you're flying from.
219 cle757 : I think CLE (as a hub for UA) is on it's last legs, the summer flight schedule is not what it's been in the past, and mainline flying is dwindling. I
220 joeman : Somewhat similar to the angst created for CO when AirTran began ops at CAK and very interesting for the time being. Heaven forbid there be any compet
221 joeman : Afterthought...always enjoyable to note how the CLE catchment area changes up depending on what argument UA or ignorant a.netters with so called "rust
222 joeman : ...at least the only airline serving YNG whose model is based strictly on non-hub, low "yield" O&D, nonstop service from relatively small markets
223 Post contains images MasseyBrown : Silver was also willing to fly YNG-CLE and codeshare with UA, but that apparently won't happen. I don't know if UA or YNG turned down the deal. While
224 cle757 : YNG-CLE is not going to happen, we'll be lucky to have CLE-LAX someday!
225 flyinryan99 : I was told they were interested in restarting TOL CLE and YNG CLE but couldn't get a good prorate to do the flying since there is no OD between the m
226 joeman : Watcha mean cle757? Thought UA was giving us about 2 a day in mostly off season and up to 4 on the CLE-LAX run for a few weeks in summer...like origi
227 MasseyBrown : Dunno about bullying, but G4 doesn't hesitate to pull out of a market that isn't working for them.
228 joeman : Long before substantial expansion over the course of years
229 fun2fly : If they added these, everyone on a.net would dismiss it as more prop flying for CLE. I view it no different than CLE>CMH - just trying to move bod
230 MasseyBrown : The extra gate doesn't cost them much, and if they are going to shed one, they would probably do it before AA gets out of bankruptcy while AA can eas
231 N766UA : Why would they have less gates? The airlines will be merged, but there will still be flights to all the same places as there are now. If US has 3 and
232 joeman : In the thread dealing with the UA Q1 loss, a fascinating notion is commented on that the largest U.S. city/economies may not necessarily always be cho
233 YNGguins : At one point YNG-CLE was on the table, but the type of deal with Silver and United would never had made it profitable... Quite frankly it was wise for
234 ouboy79 : From what I've heard might see OKC-CLE go twice daily at some point. A lot of high yield traffic on the route.
235 fun2fly : Good to hear it's a winner. Wish there were a few more just like it out there. What impact will UA's order of 30 + 40 options of the E175 have on CLE
236 MasseyBrown : The upshot of UA's new scope clause is a net reduction of about 140 RJ's, from 588 today to 450. The new order for E175s is part of that transition.
237 MasseyBrown : Nice post fromj another board: Dear Northeast Ohio Air Traveler, As you well know, Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE) – in common with mo
238 greenair727 : ^Interesting. Where was that posted? Who do you think is the real target of that message--UA, B6, AA, LH, BA? Or, if it really is to the public, is th
239 MasseyBrown : I believe a.net doesn't like the source to be linked. I'll sent it to you privately. No, I don't think it's a competitive shot at anybody else - just
240 greenair727 : ^Ok, thanks for sending the source. Re the message itself, it just seemed unusual, as the Director hasn't spoken directly to the public before, or at
241 MasseyBrown : Anyway, it's interesting about Charleston as another weekend destination. I always thought the Carolina coast was a spring and fall destination - like
242 N766UA : Except if you compare it to 2007 or 2002, instead of 2012, it's a massive reduction across the board. You can't just blame fuel and the economy anymo
243 joeman : Yes, I agree, but any little positive news for CLE at this point is welcome. At CLE, there were years of baby steps increasing service since it was l
244 N766UA : Yeah, I wish they'd just commit already, one way or the other. I mean, there's no reason for CHS and TVC not to be dailies, and there's no reason TPA
245 ncflyer : What UA is doing is just plain bad for the region. Not big enough to be a real hub, big enough to squelch competition. Moving to regional jets to IAH
246 MasseyBrown : UA has bigger fish to fry; CLE is barely on the list. 1.) profitability. 2.) get the merger done. 3.) repair their tattered customer service reputati
247 fun2fly : You're a pretty optimistic guy thinking it is that high. CLE is not what is separating UA from greatness - which is your point and I agree. Makes mon
248 N766UA : I think you're optimistic to even assume they have a list at all. A319's to CLT vs. CRJs or E-Jets, I guess?
249 joeman : Not to rub salt in any wounds, but this was after a giant cut by original UA after a build up sort of like AL in PIT and primarily based on local O&a
250 Post contains links fun2fly : From another thread: Gotta be hard to draw people to CAK when there are so many seats to MDW from CLE. WN is dropping CAK-MDW effective November 2. Th
251 ncflyer : What's interesting to me is that WN is ALSO cutting CLE to MDW capacity, I rationalized it by assuming the CAK flights were cannibalizing the volume.
252 MasseyBrown : CLE-BWI used to be more also - 7 dailies, I think, now 4. I wonder if WN's fares, rising much faster than inflation, are putting the "let's go - why
253 greenair727 : ^I just checked WN's prices for a CLE-NY flight for the first time in my life. I only checked because the UA flight (intra-week) was so high. But WN's
254 Post contains links iowaman : Due to length, this thread will be archived. Part 3 is opened up here: What's Going On In CLE - Part 3 (by iowaman May 13 2013 in Civil Aviation)
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