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What's Going On In CLE - Part 2  
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18681 times:

So there's kinda ... sorta good news from UA - not that it's worth a press release or anything..

In the last couple of weeks UA has reloaded essentially all of last year's flights and frequencies for the 2013 summer schedule. This is a huge improvement over the current post-holiday schedule which reduced some spoke routes to two dailies. By summer most spokes will be back up to four dailies minimum, just a few with little O&D at two or three.

Better yet, perhaps, the Cal pilot bid package just put out keeps CLE above 200 737 CA/FO slots. It is reduced by about 10 slots from the previous bid but remains at a healthy level.

It would be nice to see some growth this summer, but, with the 787 giving the schedulers fits, I guess CLE should be happy with what we see so far.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
254 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18557 times:

An interesting comment from today's earnings webcast, a comment I'm not sure management really wanted to make: the real reason for the extra-large schedule reduction post-Christmas and the very gradual add-backs was to improve performance reliability. They cut the system sked back to what they thought they could actually manage efficiently.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2850 posts, RR: 33
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18502 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 1):
An interesting comment from today's earnings webcast, a comment I'm not sure management really wanted to make: the real reason for the extra-large schedule reduction post-Christmas and the very gradual add-backs was to improve performance reliability. They cut the system sked back to what they thought they could actually manage efficiently.

This past summer was way too much too soon. I think the workgroups are still exhausted from this recent "summer from hell".



No info
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18467 times:

They have been sending alot of CLE rampers to EWR lately for widebody training, not that this means anything but it's a good sign.


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 18220 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
Better yet, perhaps, the Cal pilot bid package just put out keeps CLE above 200 737 CA/FO slots. It is reduced by about 10 slots from the previous bid but remains at a healthy level.

Correction: no reduction in lines.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 853 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18213 times:
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Quoting cle757 (Reply 3):
They have been sending alot of CLE rampers to EWR lately for widebody training, not that this means anything but it's a good sign.

That is a good sign. Granted, it could be preparedness for diversions but perhaps 767 service to FRA is not as far away as we might think. Perhaps SFO - CLE - FRA? Though right now I would certainly love to see a seasonal HNL - CLE - FRA!!!



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 18176 times:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 5):
That is a good sign. Granted, it could be preparedness for diversions but perhaps 767 service to FRA is not as far away as we might think.

Fingers crossed, but I'd bet the 787 grounding has the company holding any spare capacity in reserve for now. I bet they're looking for ways to hang onto the 762's that were slated to be retired. Maybe next year.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 18115 times:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 5):
Granted, it could be preparedness for diversions

That's absolutely what it is. CLE won't get widebodies, and it's simple to see why. When the hub was handling thousands of pax more a day in 2000/2001, it didn't get widebodies. When the hub had service to LHR and CDG, it didn't get widebodies. Why now, when it's at its smallest, when the economy is at its worst, would it get widebodies?



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User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 853 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 18050 times:
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Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
That's absolutely what it is. CLE won't get widebodies, and it's simple to see why. When the hub was handling thousands of pax more a day in 2000/2001, it didn't get widebodies. When the hub had service to LHR and CDG, it didn't get widebodies. Why now, when it's at its smallest, when the economy is at its worst, would it get widebodies?

Because back in 2001 there were not any wide bodies available for CLE, CLE today still has good volume of business passenger and cargo traffic to Europe and the CLE station has one of the cheapest operating costs in the system.



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineswacle From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 17993 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
That's absolutely what it is. CLE won't get widebodies, and it's simple to see why. When the hub was handling thousands of pax more a day in 2000/2001, it didn't get widebodies. When the hub had service to LHR and CDG, it didn't get widebodies. Why now, when it's at its smallest, when the economy is at its worst, would it get widebodies?

To add to the above post, from what I understand UA trucks loads of cargo to other hubs to get it out. Without international flights, the return of domestic widebodys from United to ORD and/or EWR would kill two birds with one stone: supply a premium product for business travelers and allow a lot of that freight currently trucked to be loaded on flights.



Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 17843 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
Why now, when it's at its smallest, when the economy is at its worst, would it get widebodies?

I don't know about widebodies - their use domestically is becoming rarer and rarer; but 13 RJs plus a couple mainliners a day on CLE-ORD has to be inefficient. I could see more mainline to the biggest traffic points.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 17765 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 10):
I don't know about widebodies - their use domestically is becoming rarer and rarer; but 13 RJs plus a couple mainliners a day on CLE-ORD has to be inefficient. I could see more mainline to the biggest traffic points.

CO will only add 16 CR7 size RJ's in 2013 (mostly in Q2) so there may be some change at least from the ERJ. Of course, some new 739ERs also. Hope some of those make it to that market...specifically took the 738 flight on TH for that reason.

I did see some E170's on IAH>CLE in July for the first time ever. I don't view that as a positive, still same # of flights (6).


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17613 times:

Quoting swacle (Reply 9):
To add to the above post, from what I understand UA trucks loads of cargo to other hubs to get it out.

And without customer demand, UA (and freight forwarders) will continue to do so. There has to be a need for more direct service. Some major shipper has to step up and say "I can no longer tolerate multiple transfer points." That shipper would have to be big enough to threaten to charter regular dedicated aircraft. So far, that hasn't happened and I don't know how likely it would be.

One shipper (mostly inbound) that is growing like a giant radioactive mushroom is Cleveland Heart Labs. Their operation is mostly domestic so far, but it has the potential to make a difference.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17584 times:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 8):
Because back in 2001 there were not any wide bodies available for CLE, CLE today still has good volume of business passenger and cargo traffic to Europe and the CLE station has one of the cheapest operating costs in the system.

I see UA adding EXPRESS aircraft to hub routes that were previously 100% mainline, including EWR. How does anyone figure that when an airline is reducing capacity they would consider widebodies? I mean, seriously, we're taking a route that used to have 757's on it and doing it with Embraers now. How anyone could read that as "we're gunna get widebodies!" is beyond me.



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User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 17552 times:

Quote:
Better yet, perhaps, the Cal pilot bid package just put out keeps CLE above 200 737 CA/FO slots. It is reduced by about 10 slots from the previous bid but remains at a healthy level.

Massey (or others)--what does "CA/FO" slots mean?

Any update on the new FIS? Could that be a partial consideration point in LH's or UA's plans?


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 17499 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 14):
Massey (or others)--what does "CA/FO" slots mean?

In old fashioned terms: pilot and co-pilot,



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 17470 times:

Anyone have any ideas on the # of pax UA will put throught CLE vs. 2012 w/this schedule? It is good to see the same # of flights for CLE despite challenging economic conditions + UA decreasing domestic capacity in 2013. Looks like a survival year w/o a lot of changes overall.

Others seem to be on the upswing in Northeast Ohio DL is upgauging (ATL) and adding routes (LGA), additional capacity on CAK>ATL, and will more than likely upgauge CLE>MSP when the 717's or CR9's come along. US has upgauged CLE>CLT to mostly 737/ER9.

It will be interesting to see if CLE airport system can manage a few upgrades in 2013. 30% of the long term parking lot is blocked off w/barrels so that needs to be addressed. I'd imagine if there were ever going to be a big splash (FIS or TATL service or ??) they'd coordinate that w/the Medical Mart/Convention Center launch in October. The Center should push some positive traffic to CLE in 2014.


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 17468 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
I see UA adding EXPRESS aircraft to hub routes that were previously 100% mainline, including EWR. How does anyone figure that when an airline is reducing capacity they would consider widebodies? I mean, seriously, we're taking a route that used to have 757's on it and doing it with Embraers now. How anyone could read that as "we're gunna get widebodies!" is beyond me.

This is happening at all the hubs now, not just CLE!



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlinehighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 17463 times:

There seems to be a a segment of Cleveland air travelers who have come to believe the lack of widebody service to CLE is a deliberate airline conspiracy, hence a broadside to their civic ego. Certainly if more seats and ASMs were to enter the CLE to west coast markets, it would benefit passengers by helping drive down airfares. Unfortunately, United is as sophisticated as the rest in downsizing equipment on any given route to maximize yields (and maximize passenger discomfort.) Today sitting in a 767-300 coach class seat doing .80 Mach isn't apprecialbly different than sitting in a 737-800 coach class seat doing .78 Mach.

User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 494 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 17386 times:

I gotta be honest, sometimes I wonder if CLE citizens would be better off without a hub. The fares are ridiculously outrageous here, I'm tired of driving to CAK or PIT to pay what I would consider to be a reasonable fare. Flying to Florida is downright ridiculous compared to PIT, $200 per person more expensive.

Having a United hub is like a hidden tax. Before the merger, it wasn't this bad. I'm sure UA knows what they're doing on pricing, so what if it went away. . . .


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 17370 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 19):
I gotta be honest, sometimes I wonder if CLE citizens would be better off without a hub. The fares are ridiculously outrageous here

I agree. Airfares to a lot of places (BOS, NYC, DC, etc) are regularly almost double what they were only a couple of years ago, and often times more than that. I'm all for the airline making money, but 900$ to LaGuardia?!

I wouldn't miss UA much. Their service is sub-par anymore, and I'm on an RJ most of the time anyway. I'm not paying 900$ to fly a freakin' RJ, so I wind up connecting or driving elsewhere. If UA going away meant more SWA, more mainline, and perhaps a JetBlue entrance, I'm down.



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User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17270 times:

ncflyer and N766UA - GROWTH brings competition, competition brings lower prices. The road for growth in the city of cleveland is through a strong hub that will attract new businesses. After which passenger demand will be high enough for new carriers to compete on strong routes. Think long term. A short term gain to save a few pennies may end up costing you a lot more when you're back to one carrier on the route and the demand is lower, giving you not only higher prices but fewer frequencies as well. CLE would NOT be better off without the UA hub.

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 17221 times:

If pricey tickets are on your money, you shop around. If it's on the client's money (the client you are billing $400 or more an hour), your client will pay the CLE premium and come out ahead. CLE being a big legal and financial/accounting city, their are lots of people billing clients for their services. The airlines know this and prices accordingly. Other corp. travelers get negotiated rates. The little guy gets taken to the cleaners, but doesn't he always?

If you really want a bargain and can plan ahead, you can get a decent fare out of CLE. Otherwise, the new oligopoly we call the airline industry is NOT going to give their product away the way they used to a few years ago.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3867 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 17193 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 21):
ncflyer and N766UA - GROWTH brings competition, competition brings lower prices. The road for growth in the city of cleveland is through a strong hub that will attract new businesses.

Wasn't CLE still a pretty strong hub back in the mid to late 1990's? The passenger totals for CLE only go back to 1999, but in that year the passenger total was 13,020,285 compared to just over 9.2 million last year.

But if you look at the Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH MSA, it has been slowly shrinking for the past 15 years. The last year that Cleveland's metro population showed an increase from the previous year was 1996.

source

If a strong hub that attracts new businesses is the key to growth for the Cleveland metro area, why wasn't it growing during the last half of the 1990's when CLE was a stronger hub?

LoneStarMike


User currently offlineDiesel33 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 17171 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):
I see UA adding EXPRESS aircraft to hub routes that were previously 100% mainline, including EWR.

I thought all routes between (S-CO) hubs had to be all mainline? Is this changing with the new pilot contract?


User currently offlinejetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2850 posts, RR: 33
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 17346 times:

Quoting Diesel33 (Reply 24):
I thought all routes between (S-CO) hubs had to be all mainline? Is this changing with the new pilot contract?

I think they are saying those are sUA flights, to get around the contract. Just like the 700's in IAH...those are "sUA" flights, so as to not infringe on the sCO scope....



No info
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 17347 times:

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 23):
If a strong hub that attracts new businesses is the key to growth for the Cleveland metro area, why wasn't it growing during the last half of the 1990's when CLE was a stronger hub?

CLE was still a heavy basic industry manufacturing economy then. It has taken 40+ years to transition away from that. The big closures were in the 70's, 80's and 90's and it's taken that long for people to quit whining and start believing the old economy won't ever come back. Meanwhile the new economy (high-value-added manufacturing, biotech, medicine, insurance, IT, etc.) has only lately attained the "critical mass" to become self-propelling. In the 90's and early 00's, O&D was shrinking, undermining the hub.

Lately ('08-'12), the CLE economy has performed above the national average and most recently the area has begun seeing sustained growth in employment numbers as well as growing year-over-year O&D air traffic. Personally, I believe the area population has bottomed out and will soon begin growing modestly (if it hasn't already).

I sense that UA has the hub on a tight leash, ready to kill it if it falters or keep it so long as it's relatively profitable. I'm not sure what it would take to expand it at the moment.

It's also my theory that CLE diverts more traffic from DL in DTW than it does from UA in ORD, so there's another reason for UA to keep it: to annoy the folks in Atlanta.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 494 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17472 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 21):

ncflyer and N766UA - GROWTH brings competition, competition brings lower prices. The road for growth in the city of cleveland is through a strong hub that will attract new businesses. After which passenger demand will be high enough for new carriers to compete on strong routes. Think long term. A short term gain to save a few pennies may end up costing you a lot more when you're back to one carrier on the route and the demand is lower, giving you not only higher prices but fewer frequencies as well. CLE would NOT be better off without the UA hub.

Greenair, how's that working out for RDU, AUS---- cities that are growing like absolute weeds without a hub, and that have plenty of airline competition, rather than fortresses. Or Detroit, a city that is shrinking like mad but with a fantastic hub. Hub has nothing to do with it, except to folks in the convention and visitor bureaus-- kind of like sports stadiums or overbuilt convention centers. By the way, a 25-40% fare differential, which is not uncommon between CLE and PIT no matter how far ahead one is planning, is not a few pennies to small business people. But hey United has some smart people, I guess they've figured it out if the hub is still plodding along. Hubs discourage competition no matter how big they are, they don't invite it.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17456 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 21):
GROWTH brings competition, competition brings lower prices.

No it doesn't. Look at PIT and CVG when they were fortresses. They had zero competition and some of the highest fares in the country. Now both are attracting gobs of low-fare carriers, SWA, Frontier, JetBlue, AirTran… that's where competition comes from! This idea that a huge hub begets competition is ridiculous!

United has shown zero commitment to CLE beyond the bare-bones minimum, and on top of that they're pulling down the worst on-time numbers of any major, they're shipping all their customer service overseas, and they're doing absolutely nothing to compensate for it. I don't want to see the hub go away, but I'm definitely more open minded lately. CO was a great airline for CLE, but UA ain't CO.



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User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3867 posts, RR: 34
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 17371 times:

Well, adding to the discussion here's a couple of ancient (by internet standards) articles that kind of back up the points that ncflyer and N766UA are trying to make.

Nashville Airport not mourning loss of hub
By BUSH BERNARD
The Tennessean
August 20, 2001


The gist of the above article was that Nashville's economy improved after AA closed their hub there in the mid 1990's

And then there's this article:

How a city can win by losing its airport hub status
BY MELANIE TROTTMAN
The Wall Street Journal
April 28, 2004


Quote:
Maybe losing an airport hub isn't so bad after all. Compare Nashville
and Cincinnati.

The average one-way domestic fare to fly out of Nashville International
Airport was $138, or about 16 cents per mile, in the second quarter of
last year, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation.

From Cincinnati, the average one-way fare was 71 percent higher at $236,
or 30 cents per mile.

The difference? Cincinnati is a hub, Nashville isn't.

(Keep in mind that second article was written nearly nine years ago, so the fare information has changed, but the points the article makes are still valid IMHO.

LoneStarMike


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 17341 times:

Quoting LoneStarMike:
But if you look at the Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH MSA, it has been slowly shrinking for the past 15 years. The last year that Cleveland's metro population showed an increase from the previous year was 1996.

Metro CLE has been stable, not shrinking. The US Commerce Dept definition of Cleveland should not be used as it excludes key counties that surround Cleveland. For example, thousands of people have moved 5-10 miles south out of Cuyahoga county (Cleveland) across a county line into Medina and Summit Counties and likewise east into Geauga County. These people still work in Downtown CLE or in the metro region. The population of metro cleveland has been stable at around 3 million over the past few decades. It has lost its spot as one of the top 15 metro areas in the US, as other places grew or grew faster while CLE remained fairly constant.

Quoting ncflyer:
Greenair, how's that working out for RDU, AUS---- cities that are growing like absolute weeds without a hub, and that have plenty of airline competition, rather than fortresses. Or Detroit, a city that is shrinking like mad but with a fantastic hub. Hub has nothing to do with it, except to folks in the convention and visitor bureaus-- kind of like sports stadiums or overbuilt convention centers. By the way, a 25-40% fare differential, which is not uncommon between CLE and PIT no matter how far ahead one is planning, is not a few pennies to small business people. But hey United has some smart people, I guess they've figured it out if the hub is still plodding along. Hubs discourage competition no matter how big they are, they don't invite it.

ncflyer--all apples are fruits. but not all fruits are apples. A hub can bring growth. But you not all growth happens because of a hub. hundreds of places in the world are growing that aren't hubs. RDU and AUS are two of them. Factors other than whether or not a city is an airline hub are important for growth. a hub is one factor, but not a mandatory one. But a hub can help a city market itself and is a factor in business locations -- a hub will have better air service than a non-hub---both in terms of destinations offered and frequency of service to each destination. thus, more business, more air travel, more demand, and a second or 3rd carrier enters a route.

Quoting N776A:
No it doesn't. Look at PIT and CVG when they were fortresses. They had zero competition and some of the highest fares in the country. Now both are attracting gobs of low-fare carriers, SWA, Frontier, JetBlue, AirTran%u2026 that's where competition comes from! This idea that a huge hub begets competition is ridiculous!

I don't know much about PIT, but for CVG, I believe it was very heavily connecting traffic compared to O&D. CLE is a much bigger city in terms of O&D, and as such already has a bunch of other carriers there, carrying around 30% of the traffic. Take BOS for example. If there was a lot of CLE-BOS traffic, surely B6 or someone would step in to compete on the route. CLE-BOS will grow, but will take time. Look at CLE-CHI or CLE-NYC---there's plenty of competition on these routes.

LoneStarMike--regarding the articles posted--yes, once a formidable hub carrier leaves other carriers may step in, but if they're the sole carrier on the route, they could charge whatever they wanted, even if they are officially an LCC. I've priced LCC's around the country and they oftentimes not cheaper than majors when they are the sole carrier. In CLE, I have never found Southwest to be a better deal than CO.

Ultimately, the hub is critical for CLE's growth---after growth you'll see other airlines wanting a piece of the market, and the competition will be there, and prices will come down. At this time, though, CLE must continue to build on the momentum underway, as cited by MasseyBrown: "Lately ('08-'12), the CLE economy has performed above the national average and most recently the area has begun seeing sustained growth in employment numbers as well as growing year-over-year O&D air traffic."


User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3867 posts, RR: 34
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 17283 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 30):
Metro CLE has been stable, not shrinking. The US Commerce Dept definition of Cleveland should not be used as it excludes key counties that surround Cleveland. For example, thousands of people have moved 5-10 miles south out of Cuyahoga county (Cleveland) across a county line into Medina and Summit Counties and likewise east into Geauga County. These people still work in Downtown CLE or in the metro region. The population of metro cleveland has been stable at around 3 million over the past few decades. It has lost its spot as one of the top 15 metro areas in the US, as other places grew or grew faster while CLE remained fairly constant.

OK, thank you greenair727. Basically, instead of looking at Cleveland's MSA population, I should have been looking at Cleveland's Combined Statistical Area (CSA) population.

Every major city has a Metropolitan Statistical Area population. For some cities (like Phoenix or San Antonio, that's the "official" population for their metro area. Other cities (like Cleveland) are also part of a larger Combined Statistical Area.

I guess for this thread (and others) where we try to quote population totals for a particular region, we should probably be using this list: Primary Statistical Areas It ranks all the major cities in order by using either their MSA population or their larger CSA population (if they're part of a larger Combined Statistical Area.)

And before I get yelled at   yes - I know it's a Wikipedia entry, but it's source is the U.S. Census Bureau and the ranking & population for Cleveland (19th largest and just under 2.9 million) pretty much matches what you have said, so I'm assuming the list is accurate.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 30):
Factors other than whether or not a city is an airline hub are important for growth. a hub is one factor, but not a mandatory one.

I agree with you on this point. I can't speak for Cleveland or Raleigh, but here in Austin, I think most of the new business that we're attracting from other states come here not so much because of our cost of airfares or level of air service, but because Texas is considered a business-friendly state due to lower taxes. Other factors include median average home prices and cost of living.

LoneStarMike


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 17269 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 30):
If there was a lot of CLE-BOS traffic, surely B6 or someone would step in to compete on the route.

There is a lot of CLE-BOS traffic, including MHT and PVD. The problem I see is that B6 comes in, UA price matches them or ups the number of flights, and B6 suffers. It's not worth their risk, in other words. Without a hub, B6 could absolutely make a killing on that route.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 30):
Ultimately, the hub is critical for CLE's growth---after growth you'll see other airlines wanting a piece of the market, and the competition will be there, and prices will come down

Sorry, but that makes absolutely zero sense to me. A bigger hub means a bigger stranglehold on the market and higher fares, not other airlines clamoring to "get a piece of the action." Keep in mind that the majority of growth CLE will do as a hub will be due to connecting traffic, and connecting pax in that case only benefit the hub airline. An increase in hub size will do nothing to the local O&D market, and that's the market other airlines serve, that and the "UA can't get me there from here" market, which obviously goes away the more flights UA offers.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 17240 times:

Quoting N766UA:
There is a lot of CLE-BOS traffic, including MHT and PVD. The problem I see is that B6 comes in, UA price matches them or ups the number of flights, and B6 suffers. It's not worth their risk, in other words. Without a hub, B6 could absolutely make a killing on that route.

This doesn't really make sense. It means that if UA de-hubbed CLE, but still served CLE-BOS, B6 could be very profitable on the route, even though UA is present with the same number of seats/frequencies before B6 entry. It suggests UA would NOT try to lower their fare or increase flights to chase them out of the market. I think what you're saying is that airlines must be wary of incumbents on a given route. That makes sense. But incumbent carriers need not necessarily be the hub carrier at a given airport.

Quoting N766UA:
...A bigger hub means a bigger stranglehold on the market and higher fares, not other airlines clamoring to "get a piece of the action."

How do explain B6, WN, Frontier and others entering markets already served by hubs carriers at their hubs?

Quoting N766UA:
An increase in hub size will do nothing to the local O&D market...

I disagree. If there were suddenly new UA flights to FRA and HNL, there would be new O&D pax. These would be new trips, not ones that would have otherwise connected somewhere, thus the O&D market would be larger. Also, businesses looking to expand within the US or to open a US office may well set up shop where there is good service with a single airline with whom they could negotiate good corporate rates. The growth or entry of these businesses will increase O&D--both by business travel and personal travel of the employees and their families (that would otherwise be O&D in a different city).


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 34, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 17164 times:

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 31):
Basically, instead of looking at Cleveland's MSA population, I should have been looking at Cleveland's Combined Statistical Area (CSA) population.

The CSA numbers used to describe almost perfectly the CLE traffic cachment. Since CAK has emerged as a significant player, it no longer does - at least not as perfectly. DOT now treats Cleveland as a two-airport point in many statistical compilations.

CLE's cachment has grown somewhat to the west with the decline of TOL service, since some eastern portions of Toledo's marketing area are closer to CLE than DTW. I don't believe, however, that the western growth balances out what CAK can now claim as its own turf.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 567 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 17138 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 27):
Or Detroit, a city that is shrinking like mad but with a fantastic hub.

If DTW just served the City of Detroit, the NW/DL hub would have closed long ago. It's about catchment area, not just the city the airport happens to be named after.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 36, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 17068 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 33):
How do explain B6, WN, Frontier and others entering markets already served by hubs carriers at their hubs?

Nobody's saying airlines don't start new flights at hubs, but that has no bearing on the discussion. The issue we're debating is whether or not a hub makes it more likely for a new carrier to enter a market, and while a hub does not preclude new airlines, it does discourage them. Look at any airport that's been de-hubbed and note the proliferation of new carriers!

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 33):
These would be new trips, not ones that would have otherwise connected somewhere, thus the O&D market would be larger.

Such routes would obviously bring new O&D for those routes, considering you can't have pax on a flight that doesn't exist, but not more generally. In other words, CLE-FRA would bring new pax who are heading to Germany, but CLE-FRA would not bring new pax who are heading to Seattle, pax that Alaska, for example, could then take advantage of.

It's just unrelated. Either the market's there or it isn't, a hub has little positive to do with anyone's traffic besides the hub carrier's. Obviously if UA adds flights, UA will add pax, but we're talking about competition here.



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User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 16876 times:

What is the construction in the offices behind the stores on Concourse B all about?

User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 494 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16819 times:

Does anyone know, why does UA fly so many small jets from ORD to CLE, rather than fewer large ones? Love the hourly service, but it just seems like an expensive way to go, especially for $200 r/t fares.

User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16803 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 38):
Does anyone know, why does UA fly so many small jets from ORD to CLE, rather than fewer large ones? Love the hourly service, but it just seems like an expensive way to go, especially for $200 r/t fares.

And they are all full, alot have been upgraded to the CR7 but still more could be 737/A320s.



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16670 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 39):
And they are all full, alot have been upgraded to the CR7 but still more could be 737/A320s.
Quoting ncflyer (Reply 38):
Does anyone know, why does UA fly so many small jets from ORD to CLE, rather than fewer large ones? Love the hourly service, but it just seems like an expensive way to go, especially for $200 r/t fares.


It's weird...w/1200 pax per day...either have10x A319/73G or 15x mix of a/c. I'd bet everyone would vote 10x A319/73G. Must not have the plane or it must be more expensive.

With more CR7's coming along, I would not expect a change!


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 16515 times:

Quoting N776UA:
It's just unrelated. Either the market's there or it isn't, a hub has little positive to do with anyone's traffic besides the hub carrier's. Obviously if UA adds flights, UA will add pax, but we're talking about competition here.

My point was that the presence of the hub will help grow the local economy which in turn will grow demand. Of course, growing demand will benefit the hub carrier, but it will also would attract new entrants to serve new or currently UA-only routes. The thing we don't want to promote--which is how this discussion began--is something along the lines of that the city would be better off without the hub (which it clearly wouldn't be).


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 42, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 16491 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 41):
My point was that the presence of the hub will help grow the local economy which in turn will grow demand.

I think there is something to this point of view. ATL and CLT were hubs long before their supporting cities' economies were significant. You could probably add DEN to this list.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 43, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 16387 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 41):
My point was that the presence of the hub will help grow the local economy which in turn will grow demand

Ah I see, yeah, that would definitely be true.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 44, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16137 times:

There's interesting data in a Brookings study (cited by Pitrules in the current PIT thread) that applies to CLE.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/aviation

In 2011 CLE had 572,837 international passenger arrivals and departures, which broke down to 154,666 to Europe, 90.588 to Asia, and 30,933 to the Middle East and North Africa. By rule of thumb, these numbers would grow by about 20% if stimulated by non-stop service. The reason for this is 1) actual CLE O&D numbers are lost to connecting hubs by coding of the data and 2) the convenience of non-stop service will add new travelers.

So let's say, conservatively, a single CLE-Europe flight might boost the 154,666 by 10% counting only stimulation to the single point served and onward connections to 170,132 or 233 each way each day. A flight to a major European hub might therefore expect to draw half this number plus 20 (of forty) additional pax, a major piece of the MidEast/NoAfr traffic which is mostly Israel and Arab destinations, all well served from Europe. So the CLE market for a nonstop flight is 250 pax, more or less.

LHR would be the best destination, since demand for that city is higher than for CDG or FRA and LHR offers the largest number of connections minimizing backhaul. With a potential load of 250, an airline offering CLE-LHR might expect to draw half or, ignoring seasonality, 125 pax per flight. The numbers to other hubs might be lower (although CO got better loads to CDG than to LHR during the one year they tried it).

So with CLE numbers alone, 125 would produce an average year-round LF of:

AA182 pax 757 to LHR: 68.7%
AA 225 pax 767 to LHR: 55.5%
DL 174 pax 757 to CDG: 71.8%
DL 208 pax 767 to CDG: 60.1%
UA 214 pax 767 to FRA: 58.4%

These LF would probably be +20% in the summer and -20% in the winter. These loads do not count possible feed in CLE from other 'deprived' cities. Obviously, UA could most easily draw feed.

So it seems to me using Brookings data that some airline or other might be able to cobble together a profitable CLE TATL flight even if it was only seasonal.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16097 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 44):
So with CLE numbers alone, 125 would produce an average year-round LF of:

AA182 pax 757 to LHR: 68.7%
AA 225 pax 767 to LHR: 55.5%
DL 174 pax 757 to CDG: 71.8%
DL 208 pax 767 to CDG: 60.1%
UA 214 pax 767 to FRA: 58.4%

Good study Massey...you'd have to think that it is perhaps a bit better than even you state if CO put 2x 757's on the routing with 350 daily seats.

So, in UA's case, you could add 15-25 connecting pax per day (not sure what the old LHR service had), you could increase the # to 140-150 per day boosting load factors to a very good # on a 757 and enough for a 7x summer and 5x winter 767.

Once the economy comes back onlline, I'd have to say the only thing in the way is really the FIS piece and some city leadership to get it setup. Not sure if the latter is going to happen.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 46, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 16020 times:

What bothers me is Brookings CLE traffic numbers are higher than the numbers provided by another usually very reliable a.net poster in an earlier thread. I'd like to check with him on where he got his data, but I can't find the message using "search".

Does anybody happen to recall who that poster is?



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 47, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 16003 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 45):
Good study Massey...you'd have to think that it is perhaps a bit better than even you state if CO put 2x 757's on the routing with 350 daily seats.

Undoubtedly CO used heaps of connecting traffic. I'm trying to present hard data and very conservative estimates of market stimulation to demonstrate that CLE can make a good case for TATL service on its own in today's economy without any need for feed.

I'd say I can come close, but what airline needs to take the risk? AA might be the hungriest, but a US merger will kill any possible interest for years. DL wants bribes, and CLE is traditionally unwilling to pay. And UA feels they own the market already without providing any service. It does seem an impossible dream at the moment.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 48, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 15943 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 44):
So the CLE market for a nonstop flight is 250 pax, more or less.



How can one possibly talk about numbers like this knowing that the service once existed and was cancelled? It's a bit like Drudge Report giving Romney huge percentages of the vote despite his having lost already...



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User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15911 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 48):
How can one possibly talk about numbers like this knowing that the service once existed and was cancelled?

Because:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 47):
UA feels they own the market already without providing any service.

and we don't want to dilute the level of flight options going thru our preferred hubs and the connecting passengers that sustain those flight, including those from CLE.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 44):
CO got better loads to CDG than to LHR during the one year they tried it

Didn't realize this, the official CO reason for dropping the service was a combo of alliance change and economy tanking, not to mention dramatic flight and destination cuts at CLE the same year that may have provided some limited connecting feed. So after 9 years of service, CLE-LGW was changed to CLE-LHR the following year and then dropped. The CO reason for dropping was the inability to land a decent LHR time slot, you know, the same year they found a decent time slot to increase EWR-LHR.


User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1037 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15942 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 38):
Does anyone know, why does UA fly so many small jets from ORD to CLE, rather than fewer large ones? Love the hourly service, but it just seems like an expensive way to go, especially for $200 r/t fares.

The main reason why UA uses so many RJ's on this route is because we don't have enough narrow bodies to provide the almost hourly service to CLE from ORD. Although prior to the merger sCO had some extra narrow bodies once the merger took place and aircraft redeployment started sUA took all those spare narrow bodies sCO had. Although the redeployment of the narrow body fleet is complete the one thing that remained the same is United is in need of more narrow bodies because without them we can not reduce the number of flights we operate on RJ's. Retiring 100 737-300's with no plan to replace those airplanes it really kicking the new United in the a** right now because it has left us dependent on UAX for a lot of our flying.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 51, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15846 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 48):
How can one possibly talk about numbers like this knowing that the service once existed and was cancelled? It's a bit like Drudge Report giving Romney huge percentages of the vote despite his having lost already...

Lots of routes which are not flown could be operated profitably, but the airline feels that alternative routes are even more profitable, i.e. the fifth non-stop EWR-LHR is apparently more profitable perhaps because of fare mix than the same plane with the same load flying CLE-LHR.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3867 posts, RR: 34
Reply 52, posted (1 year 10 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 15527 times:

I happened to notice CLE posted their passenger totals for 2012.

I can't make the direct link work on a.net, but you can go to http://www.clevelandairport.com then click on Airport Guide, then click on About CLE, then click on Airport facts.

Looks like they ended the year with 9,010,077 passengers.

LoneStarMike


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 53, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 15317 times:

The year over year drop for December was surprising; I believe CLE had been regularly beating the prior year since last July. And it's not just a drop but a sizable one.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 15205 times:

Dropoff 5 Years in a row...not a good trend if the data is correct. I do find it a bit hard to beleive w/all the services added that more pax didn't flow through (upgauges, new routes, etc.). Doesn't seem to add up, but perhaps all those seats just went out empty.

Looks like Ricky has some work to do as they've gone from 11+mm pax to barely 9mm pax on his watch.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 55, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 15167 times:

Also CLE reports a couple of hundred thousand more pax than the DoT Transtats data base does. They must be counting charters and private aircraft, whereas DoT is showing only scheduled carriers.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 15112 times:

This may help
http://www.cleveland.com/brook-park/...ment_lik.html#incart_river_default



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 57, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 15072 times:

Quoting swacle (Reply 9):
allow a lot of that freight currently trucked to be loaded on flights.

Sounds a lot more expensive than using trucks.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 12):

And without customer demand, UA (and freight forwarders) will continue to do so. There has to be a need for more direct service. Some major shipper has to step up and say "I can no longer tolerate multiple transfer points." That shipper would have to be big enough to threaten to charter regular dedicated aircraft. So far, that hasn't happened and I don't know how likely it would be.

Agreed. Unless the customers demand it, why fly freight when ground transportation is nearly as fast and much cheaper?


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15036 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 56):
This may help

So, this may also help....supposedly 70 conventions booked (didnt find size or dates)

"The mart will now be known as the Global Center for Health Innovation. The name was changed at the request of the tenants, who said medical mart did not capture the purpose of the facility, he said.

FitzGerald also announced the facility's sixth, and largest, tenant. The Healthcare Information and Management Systems Society, or HIMSS, a non-profit organization in Chicago with nearly 50,000 members, will lease one floor.

HIMSS will establish a permanent Interoperability Showcase, an interactive demonstration of clinical information systems. The society was to have been the anchor tenant of the now-failed Nashville Medical Trade Center.

The occupancy of the building is well over 50 percent with more announcements in coming weeks, he said. "

Don't think it hurts that the Nashville one failed either.


User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15038 times:

There are still times I wonder why Cleveland and the corporate hierarchy of northeast Ohio can't leverage a better quid pro quo with United for more mainline flights? Clearly there is enough economic data now to show United this area is more than willing to pay a surcharge to keep the prestige of a hub at Cleveland Hopkins. I understand there may be a lack of mainline metal for more CLE-ORD flights, but city pairs like BOS and the New York area airports still see a number of those much-hated ERJs. In addition, some of these routes are in direct competition with Southwest and American Airlines affiliate carriers which offer the same- or better- level of service.

Couldn't the corporations of northeast Ohio ask United for a 737 or A319 on these routes so their traveling employees aren't huddled en masse at the aircraft entranceway like frozen statues, waiting for their tagged carry-ons to make it up from the baggage compartment? Southwest Airlines may not have the luxury of a corporate jet out of Cuyahoga County airport, but at least a 737-700 has a large enough overhead to store a Hartmann carry-on.


User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 494 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 14957 times:

I'd argue that the passenger counts are falling because UA is squeezing a lot of yield out of the marketplace, driving pax to PIT and CAK who are unwilling to pay the RIDICULOUS fares. Probably good for UA bad for Clevelanders. It amazes me that for key business markets such as ATL, DCA, BOS, LGA, really CLE doesn't have any more service than non-hubs in the region such as CMH and PIT.

Anyone notice that WN took down a frequency to MDW this summer. Drip drip drip, their operation in CLE goes from minimal to skeletal. . . .


User currently offlineswacle From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 61, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 14954 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 60):
Quoting ncflyer (Reply 60):
Anyone notice that WN took down a frequency to MDW this summer. Drip drip drip, their operation in CLE goes from minimal to skeletal. . . .

That is misleading. WN is at 16 daily flights on the April base schedule (4/14-5/28, give or take a day) due to adding a 3rd BNA and an 8th MDW in the Feb 4 schedule release. While I do not have any inside info on the March 4 schedule release, the extra BNA has been doing well enough, in my opinion, to be added in through the summer schedule and the 8th MDW will do well during the peak summer season. I would be pretty surprised if the weekday departure count is not 16 or greater with the March 4th schedule release.



Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14862 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 60):

I'm not quite sure how competiton from CAK is bad for Clevelanders even if it's bad for CLE itself. CAK isn't 400 miles away from Cleveland or over a mountain range. In fact some eastern suburbs are almost equally distant from CAK and CLE. Many people in Cleveland work in Akron and vice versa.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 63, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14834 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 58):
So, this may also help....supposedly 70 conventions booked (didnt find size or dates)

"The mart will now be known as the Global Center for Health Innovation.

Sucky name   But this is huge for the city and the airport. I suspect it is a major reason why UA is still hanging around.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 494 posts, RR: 1
Reply 64, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14706 times:

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 62):
I'm not quite sure how competiton from CAK is bad for Clevelanders even if it's bad for CLE itself. CAK isn't 400 miles away from Cleveland or over a mountain range. In fact some eastern suburbs are almost equally distant from CAK and CLE. Many people in Cleveland work in Akron and vice versa.

Touche on Akron, but not on Pittsburgh. Siphoning off traffic dilutes the investment the region is able to make in building a strong airport and getting more and more service.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 65, posted (1 year 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 14590 times:

http://www.cleveland.com/business/in...opkins_airport.html#incart_m-rpt-2

CLE is opening a non-airline operated 'lounge' for Concourse A and B. This actually sounds better than some airline operations I've been in, specifically the UA/CO lounges at EWR and that insane asylum AZ runs in Rome.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 14472 times:

Airspace Lounge posted an image on their facebook page.




User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 67, posted (1 year 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 14457 times:

Quoting Sligo (Reply 66):
Airspace Lounge posted an image on their facebook page.

Too bad it can't go near/incorporate the old observation deck.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14340 times:

Is the observation deck at the end of "B" still closed?

User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 14316 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 68):

Is the observation deck at the end of "B" still closed?

Good question.

This lounge seems to be perched out over B and looking onto A, but at the main terminal...and that would be good in term s of access to it for AA and US customers; obviously the DL and WN people will be walking right on by if this is where I think it is.

Im guessing it is in that new space that was built out by the airport last year near the bridge to B. Sound correct?


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 70, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 14314 times:

Hmm ,,, Seems as if the A and B Concourse airlines might want to work some kind of deal for their club members to get in free or at a reduced rate.

Even if they don't, $20 seems like a very reasonable bargain for people using the less roomy, more hectic B Concourse especially if they are delayed.

[Edited 2013-02-23 07:38:25]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 71, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14273 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 68):
Is the observation deck at the end of "B" still closed?

Absolutely, has been for over a decade. You can't get into the inside anymore, either, it's been secured by a SIDA door for 5 years now, probably. It's not just closed, it's gone.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 72, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 14148 times:

Quoting Sligo (Reply 66):
Airspace Lounge posted an image on their facebook page.

I guess that answers the earlier post of what is all the construction in the area behind the shops on B. US, AA, DL UA clubs of the past were only down to on CO/UA club. Good to see some other options.


User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 14107 times:

An Airspace Lounge sounds like a pleasing option, particularly to those passengers departing in the B Concourse where there isn't an abundance of restaurant or lounge space to wait out a flight delay. Too bad there couldn't be a scenic lounge atop the B Concourse where the old observation deck used to be. For a lot of us, watching aircraft is preferable than viewing a flat screen broadcast of an Indians game in an airport sports bar.

User currently offlineswacle From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 74, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 14080 times:

Judging from the rendering, I think it is in the old Presidents Club (?) just after A security. Looks to be about the right size and the terminal view out the windows looks like you are looking at B on the left and at the runways out the back. This would leave the construction behind Hudson News in the old BK seating area as a mystery, though.


Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13997 times:

Didn't CLE have at one time -- UA, NW, and AA -- lounges all at the same time? -- i'm thinking late 80's, but can't remember for sure as it was so long ago!

User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 13890 times:

Quoting swacle (Reply 74):
Judging from the rendering, I think it is in the old Presidents Club (?) just after A security.

I think you're thinking of the Admirals Club that was once there after A sec'y. The doors still look like it. The doors of the old US Airways Club further down A still look the same too.

On their website, http://www.airspacelounge.com, click on "CLE". Scroll through the photos and you'll see the map. The lounge is located just before B, not A.


User currently onlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5594 posts, RR: 12
Reply 77, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 13939 times:

It's curious that nobody has yet mentioned the new route to PDX that begins June 6. There's a thread about the new service and I would have thought the news of UA adding a new daily nonstop from Hopkins to the west coast would have generated some interest on this thread!

If anyone cares, here's a link to the thread:
UA Launching CLE-PDX (by jsnww81 Feb 24 2013 in Civil Aviation)

  

bb


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 78, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 13912 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 77):

It's curious that nobody has yet mentioned the new route to PDX that begins June 6

Funny all the a.net nuts missed this. Good news for CLE. Suprised no SAN this summer, but PDX is great. I wonder why this one was so quiet?

I saw EWR got a Traverse City flight...that would have been a good one from CLE due to the proximity. Next time I guess.


I also read that the convention center / medical mart are going to open earlier (not sure exactly of the date) so there hopefully will be some more changes in the fall/next year.


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 79, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 13913 times:

Looks like UA is pulling another 2 ERJ135's out of storage...is CLE seeing these and the other reintroduced units?

User currently offlineYNGguins From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 513 posts, RR: 1
Reply 80, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 13898 times:

I posted is on the PIT thread, but it is worth discussing on here too.

Interesting study out of YNG that shows 60% of the leakage in the Youngstown-Warren-Sharon Leakage area goes to Pittsburgh, while just 18% leaks to Cleveland, which is down from 35% in the last leakage study about five years old.

Judging by the report, it is clear that PIT has become the dominant airport for travelers in the Mahoning Valley. I can say this much, Cuyahoga County in terms of license plates in the parking lot at YNG, is in the top four and ahead of some of the counties that touch Trumbull. Thus, not only is CLE losing in terms of the # of pax from the Youngstown market flying out of CLE, but they are losing their own pax choosing to fly Allegiant.

PIT and CLE have had an advertising war in Youngstown for years now and it is safe to say that PIT won that battle in convincing fashion.



Link: www.vindy.com/news/2013/feb/24/an-up...ted-study-by-a-consultant-working/



I am PROUD to live in the greatest country on earth: The United States of America!
User currently offlineflight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 81, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 13846 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 79):

Do you have a source on that?


User currently offlineizbtmnhd From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 13841 times:

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 80):


Isn't PIT alot closer physically to most of the Youngstown area compared to CLE? It makes sense more people in that area utilize PIT if you consider CLE is more expensive to fly out of due to it being priced as an O&D hub. The article doesn't show previous years, do you have a source for the 35% past figure?

Also, one guy counting license plates in the airport parking lot doesn't make an observation statistically relevant.

The link doesn't work anymore either.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 83, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13796 times:

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 82):
Isn't PIT alot closer physically to most of the Youngstown area compared to CLE?

Since WN arrived in PIT, PIT's average fare has gone down, while CLE's has gone up. Youngstown fliers are (sensibly) going for the bargain. The distance difference is less important than the $$$.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13659 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 77):
It's curious that nobody has yet mentioned the new route to PDX that begins June 6.

This is fantastic news. Unfortunately, and as usual, it seems to be at the expense of a severe reduction in CLE-PHX for the same time period (for now). For the the first time since the dawn of deregulation, there will be no daily CLE-PHX service, a route that has been flown at one time or another by AA, EA, AL, US, SW, AW, CO, and now by "hub" carrier UA which just can't make it work during summer...check in later to see any pickup after CLE-PDX is dropped after the brief "seasonal" stint.

See the following thread for details:

OAG Changes 3/1/2013: DL Adds SEA Markets/UA/Y4


User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13631 times:

Quoting joeman (Reply 84):
Unfortunately, and as usual, it seems to be at the expense of a severe reduction in CLE-PHX

....that's too bad....


User currently offlineYNGguins From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 513 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 13589 times:

Here is a link that should work:
www.vindy.com/news/2013/feb/24/an-up...ted-study-by-a-consultant-working/

PIT is closer for folks living in Mahoning County, while CLE is closer for those in Trumbull County. Mahoning is slightly bigger, but not by that big of a margin.



I am PROUD to live in the greatest country on earth: The United States of America!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 87, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13589 times:

Quoting joeman (Reply 84):
.check in later to see any pickup after CLE-PDX is dropped after the brief "seasonal" stint.

The resumption of CLE-PHX is in the schedule for 8/27/13, the day after CLE-PDX ends.

It does seem as if CLE-PHX (333 pax a day) could support year round service, but UA is going for high yield and PHX fares drop in the summer. If you've ever been to Phoenix in the summer, you know why.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13516 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 87):
It does seem as if CLE-PHX (333 pax a day) could support year round service,

Used to be 2-3x daily for CO and 1x daily for America West and sometimes a WN seasonal. Now, not even one daily. Agreed, summer is tough, but this seems extreme.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 89, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13508 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 88):
Used to be 2-3x daily for CO and 1x daily for America West and sometimes a WN seasonal. Now, not even one daily. Agreed, summer is tough, but this seems extreme.

Just to throw this in there as food for thought, what has happened with fares from the time that there used to be 2-3x daily for CO and 1x daily for America West and sometimes a WN seasonal, and now, not even one daily? It would make sense if fares here have gone up, because we know as price increases, all other things being equal, demand will drop. So....... is this what's going on here? And just going further with this, but there may not be a consistent correlation with fare and demand in the airline world.... for example and using random numbers to show my idea here, is that a 10% increase in fare may not be a 10% drop in pax - it could be a 5% increase in fare could loose 15%, and a 15% increase in fare could result in a 65% drop in pax. So.... just saying.......

 


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 90, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13520 times:

From UA:

The airline's hub in Cleveland delivered the best performance for the month among United's eight domestic hubs with an average on-time arrival rate of 87 percent, while the San Francisco hub came in second with an on-time arrival rate of 83 percent. The on-time arrival rates are based on flights arriving within 14 minutes of scheduled arrival time.


User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 91, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13405 times:

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 52):
Looks like they ended the year with 9,010,077 passengers.

Considering this is only about 900k more than what PIT handled, it goes to show what the majority of flying out of CLE must look like. How much of their traffic is O&D? I'd be willing to bet CLE and PIT have very similar amounts of local origin-destination traffic, in the 7-8 million pax range...

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 83):
Since WN arrived in PIT, PIT's average fare has gone down, while CLE's has gone up. Youngstown fliers are (sensibly) going for the bargain. The distance difference is less important than the $$$.

I can remember hearing about folks in the Pittsburgh area driving to CLE for lower fares when US had 541 daily departures starting from $arm-and-leg, or $arm-leg-and-first-born for first class.



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13406 times:
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it would make sense that CLE at least Be ABLE to handle any widebodies,UA Has even on an Ad Hoc basis to cover special routings ,Diversions etc. When you see LD3 loaders on the ramp and LD3 cans on dollies? Then you can BET there will be widebodies Coming, What do you see for ground equipment on the Gate??
I know years ago UAL flew 767-200's into CLE IN the mid 80's SFO- CLE- LGA. (We subbed the 767 for the DC-8) we used to catch it going home for our weekends. along with UA 98 out of LAX non-stp to IAD -then PHL though CLE is mainly S-CO now it's just a matter of time before a 767 or 777 drops in there for some reason and they Have to be able to handle it. I think they're going to be around for a LONG time to come so Why NOT??


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 93, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 13230 times:

UA's latest weekly sked change has bumped CLE departures up to 200 on peak days from the post Christmas low of about 170.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 92):
it would make sense that CLE at least Be ABLE to handle any widebodies

CLE has always been able to handle widebodies, although none, except freight, has been regularly scheduled for years. A year or so ago UA moved a can-loader to CLE. Since then diversions, instead of being gas-and-gos, have frequently been off-loaded and pax rerouted directly to their ultimate destinations on CLE flights. This makes a lot more sense than flying the pax back to EWR only then to reroute them to what were CLE spoke routes.

A scheduled pax flight would be something new in a while, but not diversions.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 13064 times:

Cleveland Hopkins made the news yesterday when United Airlines flight 132, a Boeing 757 from JFK to LAX, made an unscheduled stop after smoke in the cabin was detected. For one passenger aboard, actress Dana Delany who suddenly found herself in a situation similar to the pilot episode of Made in Cleveland, it was an opportunity to go on a Twitter rampage. Cleveland, oh the humanity! If only Ms. Delany's aircraft had a smoke emergency in Nice, she could have hopped over to Monaco or Cap d' Antibes while the mechanics sweated over the Air Cycle Machine or supply ducts.

The rescheduled flight took-off from CLE sometime after 10 p.m. and made it to LAX after midnight.


User currently offlineantoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1607 posts, RR: 4
Reply 95, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 12887 times:

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 94):
a situation similar to the pilot episode of Made in Cleveland,

Umm... I think that's "Hot in Cleveland"



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12851 times:

It's hard to believe w/all the government $ around, CLE cannot get a new / expanded TSA check point at C terminal. The line was all the way past B Check Point on Sat AM. Over 30 min in just the priority line. I'm rarely there on Sat AM but was pretty shocked it was busier than Mon AM. I guess those funds went to BHM to create an entirely new terminal for 3mm pax or somewhere else. What at mess. It was embarrasing to CLE and UA.

I know that the expanded area was to be part of the new FIS setup...any way it can be done w/o the FIS project?

Time for Ricky Smith and CLE to show some leadership and get this fixed.


User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 853 posts, RR: 1
Reply 97, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 12786 times:
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Saturday mornings are usually pretty crazy for Terminal C, as are Mondays as you indicated fun2fly. Given the 2 other checkpoints in close proximity and a lack of space to expand, I just do not see CLE expanding the Terminal C checkpoint - even with these peak periods. My usual complaint is experiencing those kinds of lines and then seeing TSA not having every machine open for use. Inexcusable, they can find out passengers counts and plan ahead for surges.

I would rather see the airport invest in a new FIS/CBP facility. The current one is beyond embarrassing and is one of the reasons why we will not be seeing service to Europe any time soon.



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 98, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 12783 times:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 97):
I would rather see the airport invest in a new FIS/CBP facility.

I agree. Rickie Smith is no idiot; you have to assume there has been a CLE-UA discussion about this.

Something like:

CLE: "If we build a new FIS will you provide intl service?"

UA: "Maybe."

Priorities being what they are, Smith probably couldn't sell the project without a hard commitment. Just guessing, of course ...



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 99, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 12746 times:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 97):
Saturday mornings are usually pretty crazy for Terminal C, as are Mondays as you indicated fun2fly. Given the 2 other checkpoints in close proximity and a lack of space to expand, I just do not see CLE expanding the Terminal C checkpoint - even with these peak periods. My usual complaint is experiencing those kinds of lines and then seeing TSA not having every machine open for use. Inexcusable, they can find out passengers counts and plan ahead for surges.

The TSA signs showing the wait times at the other gates were also inoperableto guide pax to shorter lines which is unacceptable.

Why can't they just take the space over the taxi/baggage roof by the C baggage elevators and expand? Could't be a $1mm project. There were a slew of people set out to organize the unorganized that could be eliminated, plus it would not be a deterrent to flying out of CLE for those w/options at CAK and PIT. At some point, get it done CLE.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 98):
UA: "Maybe."

"Uh, we don't have any planes b/c the 787 is broken and we sold our 762's" is probably in the same sentence!

Signed up for the TSA pre check....look forward to that experiment if selected. Nice that they expanded to CLE.


User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 494 posts, RR: 1
Reply 100, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12689 times:

The honest truth is CLE is a 1950s era structure, low ceilings, narrow hallways, undersized and poorly ventilated restrooms. Fixing security there for 2x per week just doesn't do much for me. Ricky's done a nice job with what he has, but compared to most airports, even those that are much smaller, the place needs to be blown up, with the possible exception of D. Though even D is a preposterous walk, why they didn't connect it directly to the main terminal via a straight shot tunnel is a mystery to me.

User currently offlinexms3200 From Sweden, joined Apr 2005, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 12647 times:
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CLE as a whole is a mystery on this planet, not only as far as the attention it gets on this forum, but the overall way the city of Cleveland runs the airport.

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 102, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 12571 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 100):
The honest truth is CLE is a 1950s era structure, low ceilings, narrow hallways, undersized and poorly ventilated restrooms.

And yet it's really not that bad! Compared to LGA, half of JFK, half of BOS, half of IAD etc., Cleveland's really not as depressing as you make it sound.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 12467 times:

Quoting xms3200 (Reply 101):
CLE as a whole is a mystery on this planet, not only as far as the attention it gets on this forum, but the overall way the city of Cleveland runs the airport.

You mean more attention than JFK, EWR, LGA, LAX, DEN, ORD, IAH, IAD, CLT, DFW...and more places where service levels have evolved up rather than continuously up & down or any other place where a "hub" threat has been looming for now into the second decade?


User currently offlinexms3200 From Sweden, joined Apr 2005, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12360 times:
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Quoting joeman (Reply 103):

Very well said Joeman, I couldn't have said it better....In addition to the 20 year looming shutdown of the hub, intermittent international service and an immigration/customs facility that looks like something from the '70's, CLE must have some "magnetic pull" for all this attention.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 105, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12347 times:

Quoting xms3200 (Reply 104):
.In addition to the 20 year looming shutdown of the hub, intermittent international service and an immigration/customs facility that looks like something from the '70's, CLE must have some "magnetic pull" for all this attention.

CLE is a long-running 'aviation soap opera'; and soap operas are very popular, human-sized entertainments filled with identifiable heroes and villains, ironies and jokes, triumphs and defeats.

All the dying-hub dramas attract partisans and have been wildly popular topics of discussion on a.net. So far, counter to wide expectations, CLE has defied death, so why wouldn't there be interest?  



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 106, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12305 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 102):
And yet it's really not that bad! Compared to LGA, half of JFK, half of BOS, half of IAD etc., Cleveland's really not as depressing as you make it sound.

Did you tell that to PIT thread #25 also?

Some more info released:

WASHINGTON – The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) today announced five more airports will offer TSA Pre✓™, bringing the total number of airports participating to 40. By April 1, 2013, eligible passengers flying on participating airlines out of Austin-Bergstrom International (AUS), Cleveland Hopkins International (CLE), Memphis International (MEM), Nashville International (BNA) and Raleigh-Durham International (RDU) airports may receive TSA Pre✓™ benefits.

Select passengers traveling on Alaska Airlines, American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, United Airlines and US Airways are eligible to participate in expedited screening at available locations. To date, more than 6.5 million passengers have experienced TSA Pre✓™ which allows passengers to leave on their shoes, light outerwear and belt, keep their laptop in its case and their 3-1-1 compliant liquids/gels bag in a carry-on.

“Offering TSA Pre✓™ at five additional airports is a key step to including more low risk travelers in the expedited screening process,” said TSA Administrator John S. Pistole. “This pre-screening initiative helps TSA focus its resources on those individuals we know less about, and strengthens our capabilities to ensure security for travelers when they fly.”

Eligible passengers include U.S. citizens who have opted-in through Alaska Airlines, American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, United Airlines and US Airways as well as those who are members of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Trusted Traveler programs, including Global Entry, SENTRI and NEXUS. Canadian citizens traveling domestically in the United States who are members of NEXUS are also qualified to participate in TSA Pre✓™. Individuals interested in joining a CBP Trusted Traveler program can learn more by visiting www.cbp.gov.


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12293 times:

The Pre check is already open..saw it yesterday!


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12040 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown:
I agree. Rickie Smith is no idiot; you have to assume there has been a CLE-UA discussion about this.

Something like:

CLE: "If we build a new FIS will you provide intl service?"

UA: "Maybe."

Priorities being what they are, Smith probably couldn't sell the project without a hard commitment. Just guessing, of course ...


Though real leadership and strategy beyond this impasse would be if Ricky Smith forged ahead making it a priority and actually building the facility. This way UA could test any market they wanted. And if it fell below expectation, they could drop the route. But beyond UA, ANYONE could use it--BA, LH, AA, special charters, etc. The design of the facility could be such that one may access it from more than just C/UA gates. Many airports have very long walks from the gate to the immigration facility--thus, it need not be directly below "C" concourse.

The new FIS is an immediate priority for CLE. I truly hope that Ricky comes around to this fact. Funding can always be found.


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 109, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 12012 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 108):
The new FIS is an immediate priority for CLE. I truly hope that Ricky comes around to this fact. Funding can always be found.

I agree. Certainly the regional economic folks (CLE+, Global Cleveland, or what not) should be able to assist CLE with making it a priority. I don't know if it is allowed for Ricky Smith to bark up those trees for $, but those type of organizations should be able to move that along w/some type of funding from themselves or donors. We're not talking a ton of $.

For CLE, it sure seems like making that type of FIS commitment is certainly on a different level than the ever popular unitedforthehub.com Build the FIS and put the ball in UA's court or move onto BA/AA or whomever wants to setup camp. Overdue on making it happen.


User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 853 posts, RR: 1
Reply 110, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 12023 times:
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Long Live The Hublette! KCLE has been a favorite point of discussion on A.net and other sites for a lot of reasons, most of them, IN MY OPINION, based on assumptions or simply not having information to make the statements that they do. Sure, I am rooting for the home team here, but if you stopped to paint a picture of KCLE (and the City of Cleveland) based on the comments found on these forums you would think that the airport looked like a third world bus stop and the community resembled post-war Berlin. Well folks, while Cleveland has taken a kick in the pants thanks to the economy and has certainly had to morph from the days of Big Steel, the business community is growing, if not thriving, in many sectors and the low cost of living/doing business makes it very attractive to many organizations, including United. It may be easy to compare it to other cities based on geography, but like many business issues, there are a number of factors involved in decided what is valuable, successful, prudent or otherwise.

As for the airport, given all of the improvements that have been implemented in recent years, I find it hard to understand how or why people claim it is such an awful place - with exception of that dungeon of a FIS facility. I think Ricky Smith is doing an admirable job with old infrastructure and really do not know what really could be reasonably done differently.

Now what really cracks me up is the years long battle with the starlings that love to roost in the lighting and arrivals roof support structure. I think we will get a brand new FIS facility and 787 flights to Asia before they solve "the birds."



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3338 posts, RR: 6
Reply 111, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11977 times:
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Quoting N766UA (Reply 13):

But we have also seen 757s being put on more preimum and international routes where they come in handy. Plus, it seems they are using these ma]inline aircraft to increase other domestic markets, so they could also have flet shortage issues.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 11868 times:

According to the IAM (Union) CLE is no longer a hub!


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11717 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 112):
According to the IAM (Union) CLE is no longer a hub!

Looks like the UA operation is what it is...simply control of the market with jacked up fares and delightfully limited competition

I cringe every time I hear a local radio ad to support the "hub" worded carefully to blend an implication of UA offering 250 daily flights with what might be an average total number of flights by all traffic combined.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 114, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11493 times:

Since UA morphed into its current CLE mostly-O&D posture, we have not seen another airline challenge UA for a route. This summer WN is operating a seasonal CLE-LAS. UA, in response, is cancelling one of its three CLE-LAS flights and restoring it in October, after WN ends their operation.

I'm sure WN appreciates this gentlemanly gesture from a member of the airline oligopoly. UA is willing operate the CLE hub but won't fight for it. The signal to other airlines seems to be: if you want a CLE route, we won't stand in your way.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 115, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11455 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 112):
According to the IAM (Union) CLE is no longer a hub!
Quoting joeman (Reply 113):
Looks like the UA operation is what it is...simply control of the market with jacked up fares and delightfully limited competition

I cringe every time I hear a local radio ad to support the "hub" worded carefully to blend an implication of UA offering 250 daily flights with what might be an average total number of flights by all traffic combined.

I suppose that we could go on ad nauseum as to what constitutes a hub these days, but per the UA website, CLE is still listed as a hub, and is that what matters most? UA would be foolish IMHO to not call CLE a hub, as DL still lists MEM and CVG as hubs as well. I know that there have been a handful of others, but two major airports that have been de-hubbed are PIT with US, and STL with AA, and I have to wonder if going forward, carriers will actually go as far as these two when cutting an airport. And in the case of CLE, and probably CVG with DL, if a carrier has a leg up at an airport, and by keeping it at hub status, as well as controlling the O&D pax traffic and fares, why de-hub, regardless of how many flights or connect pax, if the $$$$ are flowing in favor of the carrier? Not good for pax in the area, I admit, but good for the carriers, eh?

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 114):
Since UA morphed into its current CLE mostly-O&D posture

I believe that this is exactly what the carriers want, the O&D traffic, which is where the premium $$$$$ are. And I have to question - is the overall Cleveland volume of pax large enough as to warrant any fare wars by the carriers? If not, then why would the carriers not want to maintain a status quo?


 


User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11339 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 115):
f a carrier has a leg up at an airport, and by keeping it at hub status, as well as controlling the O&D pax traffic and fares, why de-hub, regardless of how many flights or connect pax, if the $$$$ are flowing in favor of the carrier? Not good for pax in the area, I admit, but good for the carriers, eh?

Very good indeed for the carriers

Quoting point2point (Reply 115):
but two major airports that have been de-hubbed are PIT with US, and STL with AA,

Too bad for a US/AA merged airline that they didn't treat PIT and STL in the same way...control of two large markets with passenger loyalty, could've been high fares, limited competition and the diversion of potential connecting traffic away from the hubs of remaining competition


User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1607 posts, RR: 4
Reply 117, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11251 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 115):
I suppose that we could go on ad nauseum as to what constitutes a hub these days, but per the UA website, CLE is still listed as a hub, and is that what matters most?

It's also grouped with the hubs in UA's computer systems.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 118, posted (1 year 9 months 10 hours ago) and read 11101 times:

Cribbed from a post in an AA merger topic, assuming some traffic growth, here's another reason for CLE to persist:

Average fares by UA hub (Q3, 2012)
IAH 502.75
IAD 498.63
EWR 471.67
CLE 443.30
SFO 400.10
LAX 398.13
ORD 379.48
DEN 315.72

This comparison makes all the recent capacity adds in DEN seem strange. UA's goal has to be to kill Frontier and then - in tacit cooperation with WN - raise DEN fares - something present-day WN is more than willing to do since their costs have risen and their profits on fuel hedges evaporated.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 119, posted (1 year 9 months 3 hours ago) and read 10987 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 118):
Average fares by UA hub (Q3, 2012)
IAH 502.75
IAD 498.63
EWR 471.67
CLE 443.30

IAH has HOU, IAD both DCA and BWI and EWR well...for competitive close by competition. Substantial CLE travellers use CAK and even PIT as alternative airports and/or take any kind of a day long connecting itinerary to save a few bucks to destinations that really aren't all that distant which is why the the airline theory of frequency demand is such a joke.

It's convenient for business people who are supposedly on tight schedules and lucky to be travelling routes with frequent nonstop service...that's where it ends. What difference does it make if you can leave practically every hour but waste a good chunk of the day in travel time depending on what part of the country you connect thru and are prone to ORD like delays?

I'd sooner take back our soon to be rather dormant for a period CLE-PHX flight and leave on it whenever it does, if I can't find substantially lower fares using a connecting hub flight, than spend nearly twice as long in travelling duration.

The system can really hurts non-hub mid sized cities, but yes, all 3 DEN hub airlines should increase flights and lower fares to kill each other off...but UA has the luxury of squeezing a place like CLE to support it and ORD as well...and like osmosis, their few competing CLE airlines jump on the bandwagon whenever and wherever possible to support their own hubs or "connecting points" and kill off potential markets or increases in demand by doing so.

So let all ignorant a.netters pretend that decreased passenger numbers at CLE is about a higher than average "depressed" economy which is a lie and dwindling population...not about high airfares, alternative airport choices, and substantially decreased flights/connecting traffic.


User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 494 posts, RR: 1
Reply 120, posted (1 year 9 months 2 hours ago) and read 10968 times:

Hear hear joeman!!! (I write 3 days before I drive two hours to PIT so I can save $450 on airfare for my party of three on a trip to the Caribbean)

[Edited 2013-03-24 19:03:10]

User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 567 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10833 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 118):
This comparison makes all the recent capacity adds in DEN seem strange.

Recall that the Denver City Council cut a lease reduction deal with United in exchange for maintaining/adding flights. I'd say it's pretty clear that UA is feeling the cost pressure there.


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 122, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10738 times:

Any chance we'll see CLE>SLC at any point? UA ran it for a year or so and DL did the same but it has been dormant for a good # of years.

With UA and Frontier showing that DEN > Western US connections work with their added frequencies, would DL entertain adding this flight back to further their SLC hub? DL has been adding for several years at CLE (LGA flights, ATL upgauging to mainline, etc.) and this is a logical add.

Thoughts?


User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10720 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 120):
Hear hear joeman!!! (I write 3 days before I drive two hours to PIT so I can save $450 on airfare for my party of three on a trip to the Caribbean)

Have a great time once you get there!!!!

I have a friend whose kids recently came to Cleveland thru PIT and they were only coming from Virginia for god sake!!! I have nothing at all against PIT, but a 2 hour drive to an airport when there's 1 or even 2 closer airports to the backyard? Same if it were the reverse, but PIT probably has a higher percetage of normal "mainline" sized airplanes and a flight to CDG to boot.

We have the CO/UA stranglehold to thank...oh and support or kiss a$$ as local groups encourage us to do.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 124, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10714 times:

UA is certainly milking the market, but I can usually find a decent deal if I plan ahead. AA often has bargains if you don't mind making a connection.

Can't always plan ahead, though.  

Edit: About AA, I'm talking about flights out of DCA (my home airport), not CLE.

[Edited 2013-03-25 13:16:36]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10515 times:

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 73):
An Airspace Lounge sounds like a pleasing option, particularly to those passengers departing in the B Concourse where there isn't an abundance of restaurant or lounge space to wait out a flight delay.

It looks like the lounge has opened:
http://boardingarea.com/blogs/thewan...ingaramean+(The+Wandering+Aramean)


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 10457 times:

Looks like CLE is getting nervous about United leaving...I think Jetblue would do well here!


http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/money/co...ding-service-airport-officials-say



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 127, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10401 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 126):
Looks like CLE is getting nervous about United leaving...I think Jetblue would do well here!

JetBlue might provide a couple of flights to JFK, BOS, and Florida. I doubt they would influence the bulk of CLE city-pair prices, probably not even LGA or EWR fares.

With the US industry having devolved to a four-airline oligopoly, the deeply-discounted fares of the 90's are probably gone for good with the exception of a few high-demand, price-sensitive situations like LAS and MCO.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10405 times:

Look at the Saturday schedule for CLE-IAH only one mainline, with Express Jet,Shuttle America and Skywest.


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlinedaver3188 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10397 times:

With the JetBlue rumors in CLE, this is what CLE Facebook page put up a few minutes ago. I have not seen the local article they are referring to, but it seems like officials are getting a little defensive.



"There was a report in the local media that Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE) officials are in talks with JetBlue Airlines for new service. The report implies these talks are in anticipation of United Airlines’, CLE’s hub carrier, imminent departure from Cleveland. This is not the case. CLE has a very aggressive air service development program and we speak with numerous airlines, including our existing carriers, about air service opportunities to and from the Northeast Ohio region. We are committed to working with United, our other incumbent carriers, and prospective new airlines to grow air service for Northeast Ohio travelers at CLE. We will continue to position CLE as the best airport do business."


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 130, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10392 times:

Quoting daver3188 (Reply 129):
With the JetBlue rumors in CLE, this is what CLE Facebook page put up a few minutes ago. I have not seen the local article they are referring to, but it seems like officials are getting a little defensive.

Oops ... Sounds as if UA called up and said, "WTF??? Issue a 'clarification' immediately!!"  



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 853 posts, RR: 1
Reply 131, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10306 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 130):
Oops ... Sounds as if UA called up and said, "WTF??? Issue a 'clarification' immediately!!"  

That report was awful at best. My inbox filled up with "what do you thinks" and I said while I would love to have Jetblue serve CLE, I do not think it is going to happen soon as it will be too hard to convince travelers in this region to fly east to fly west, and that is where B6 seems to make a lot of profit. BOS and JFK might do okay on their own, especially if they time a JFK flight before the late afternoon bank of flights to Europe, but overall there is already a lot of capacity between CLE and NYC. Now if they added one of their Florida cities in the mix, that might be interesting, but profitable, tough to say.

The small business owner in me would love nothing more than to see Spirit open up some routes from here. Not that I would take them mind you, but someone needs to walk up to the legacies and punch them in the nose for their price gouging.



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 132, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10169 times:

All this talk of JetBlue is interesting, but couldn't the same be accomplished by working with Southwest? Surely they could add a EWR, HOU or LAX to challenge some of UA's more pricey 4-7x daily routes, but they choose not to. Why? Do prior failures in the LAS and PHX market tell us that the FF community is probably too loyal to UA since we know WN offered valued pricing and free bags? If WN, clearly a popular airline across the country with some following in CLE due to their 16-20 flights per day cannot make these routes work, what makes one think that JetBlue, an airline without any following in CLE, could make it?

To further the point, DL was able to make the new route addition of CLE>LGA work which was a route with little competition and extremely high rates. Rates have fallen as a result at least based on my last 6 trips. Therefore, getting any carrier to add service should do the trick to lower rates if they get the volumes. I'd bet AA or DL on CLE>LAX would make it before any JetBlue route.

Regardless, it's time to get some folks in to help lower the rates.


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10153 times:

^I'm not sure why the media made such a big deal out of JetBlue. (I agree that it was horribly written article and it displayed an incredible lack of insight into the topic.) I would assume---and I hope that this is true--that Port Control is constantly talking to new and existing airlines about new routes/frequencies.

User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10158 times:

If B6 likes CLE-NYC/BOS even if their average fare was at CAK's WN/FL's fare level to those same markets, then it's plausible for B6 to come in because, even if UA matches, they could reverse the leakage from from CLE to CAK and pick up a sufficient amount of the share from UA/FL to make the routes work.

....or so the story goes...but is that enough to get CLE to top of B6's add list?


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10101 times:

^ a new service from CLE to bring back the pax taken by CAK--that would be refreshing and great to see.

User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 853 posts, RR: 1
Reply 136, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10093 times:
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Quoting fun2fly (Reply 132):
Do prior failures in the LAS and PHX market tell us that the FF community is probably too loyal to UA since we know WN offered valued pricing and free bags?

These markets had terrible profits because of stupidly low fares as HP, WN and CO fought each other for Ma and Pa Kettle.

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 132):
what makes one think that JetBlue, an airline without any following in CLE, could make it?

I do not think they will unless they gamble with a flight to a western destination.

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 132):
Rates have fallen as a result at least based on my last 6 trips.

You must be lucky. My experience has shown that rates have varied more, but there is still a LOT of price gouging for same day or overnight trips.

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 132):
I'd bet AA or DL on CLE>LAX would make it before any JetBlue route.

I had never thought of DL doing CLE>LAX. Interesting notion since they already do the same with CMH.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 133):
I'm not sure why the media made such a big deal out of JetBlue.

I think they made such a big deal as there is a growing discontent with the quality of service from United and the very apparent rise in fares out of CLE.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 134):
but is that enough to get CLE to top of B6's add list?

I think their experience in CMH will leave them with a bad taste in their mouth for a long time, unless they feel like picking a fight with Florida or can free up an aircraft for a west coast flight. There are a couple cities in Florida that would do VERY well for them from CLE, with PBI at the top of the list.



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 137, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10046 times:

Quoting xms3200 (Reply 101):
CLE as a whole is a mystery on this planet, not only as far as the attention it gets on this forum, but the overall way the city of Cleveland runs the airport.

See Below:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 136):
Quoting greenair727 (Reply 133):
I'm not sure why the media made such a big deal out of JetBlue.

I think they made such a big deal as there is a growing discontent with the quality of service from United and the very apparent rise in fares out of CLE.

and that is why there is CLE "attention" = public outcry on this forum, just as reiterated in multiple post above as the community even beyond only a-nutters becomes more aware of it.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 138, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10044 times:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 136):
Quoting fun2fly (Reply 132):
what makes one think that JetBlue, an airline without any following in CLE, could make it?

I do not think they will unless they gamble with a flight to a western destination.

It's unlikely they would try a western flight. Their best shot would be using their E190's to BOS and Florida; JFK would only work with very low fares - incompatible with JFK's very high costs. They might be able to develop some traffic on CLE-BOS-LHR with AA, in preference to UA's more crowded or less direct hubs.

That said, I doubt they'll be willing to try it. They have not had much success in PIT (they're dropping JFK), even without hub competition.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejayunited From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1037 posts, RR: 2
Reply 139, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9971 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 114):
Since UA morphed into its current CLE mostly-O&D posture, we have not seen another airline challenge UA for a route. This summer WN is operating a seasonal CLE-LAS. UA, in response, is cancelling one of its three CLE-LAS flights and restoring it in October, after WN ends their operation.

I'm sure WN appreciates this gentlemanly gesture from a member of the airline oligopoly. UA is willing operate the CLE hub but won't fight for it. The signal to other airlines seems to be: if you want a CLE route, we won't stand in your way.

You are absolutely correct UA is not fighting for CLE. And what I find surprising is the fact the the CO executives who are now running UA are sitting back and allowing this to happen they are not fighting for CLE. IF the contract that UA put forth to the IAM ends up being ratified come 2016 CLE will no longer be a hub for UA it will be more like a focus city. When I read the contract that the company is proposing to its IAM employees every hub was represented except CLE. CLE was included on the next page where all the focus cities were located. Heck GUM was even mentioned as a hub and was protected while CLE was not. So keep you eyes open because BIG changes are coming to CLE real soon if the company has it way.

So In my mind I believe that UA intends to do to CLE what DL did to CVG; de-hub it and send most passengers either to EWR,IAD or ORD. I only hope something can be done to stop this from happening and make the company see the value in keeping CLE as a hub.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 140, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9960 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 139):
So In my mind I believe that UA intends to do to CLE what DL did to CVG; de-hub it and send most passengers either to EWR,IAD or ORD.

For now CLE is a good place to employ a number of the 50-seaters. When they are gone (2017 or so?), it remains to be seen whether UA will dedicate new assets to the CLE hub; in CLE today the 70-seaters are currently being used to feed other hubs - NOT on any CLE spoke routes. To keep its present level of operations, CLE's passenger business needs to demonstrate 1) growth and 2) and unwillingness to follow UA blindly to EWR, ORD, and IAD, which aren't especially appealing hubs (to put it politely).

So I still think CLE has a couple of years to prove its worth. After that ... ???

On the IAM contract issue, CLE has only about 30-35 mainline flights a day. From the company's viewpoint, that already is a focus city, regardless of what they call it..



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 141, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9944 times:

Quoting jayunited (Reply 139):
UA is not fighting for CLE. And what I find surprising is the fact the the CO executives who are now running UA are sitting back and allowing this to happen they are not fighting for CLE

CO didn't either as time went on. Only one of the 3 domestic hubs to be drastically reduced during the 2008 economy cuts.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 140):
To keep its present level of operations, CLE's passenger business needs to demonstrate 1) growth and 2) and unwillingness to follow UA blindly to EWR, ORD, and IAD, which aren't especially appealing hubs (to put it politely).

So I still think CLE has a couple of years to prove its worth. After that ... ???

Nifty setup for a very long time


User currently offlineYNGguins From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 513 posts, RR: 1
Reply 142, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9890 times:

Think YNG may have something to say about low fares in NEOHIO in due time. Leave you with that.


I am PROUD to live in the greatest country on earth: The United States of America!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 143, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9812 times:

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 142):
Think YNG may have something to say about low fares in NEOHIO in due time.

I hope YNG gets the service it deserves. I keep expecting a YNG-IAH flight to herald UA's return. Of course, UA isn't known for low fares.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineYNGguins From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 513 posts, RR: 1
Reply 144, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9799 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 143):

That would be welcomed, but I speak of the effect YNG may have on low fares in Northeast Ohio. We shall see in due time.



I am PROUD to live in the greatest country on earth: The United States of America!
User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1607 posts, RR: 4
Reply 145, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9741 times:

Quoting mbm3 (Reply 131):
it will be too hard to convince travelers in this region to fly east to fly west

Presumably they ran into a similar issue in BNA?

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 142):
Think YNG may have something to say about low fares in NEOHIO in due time. Leave you with that.

F9? NK? I doubt WN would go there at this point....

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 143):
I keep expecting a YNG-IAH flight to herald UA's return.

ORD, IAD, or EWR would seem more likely, but, hey, UA already runs ERJs on IAH-CLE, so, why not?



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 146, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9739 times:

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 145):
UA already runs ERJs on IAH-CLE, so, why not?

Anyone know why they started E170's to IAH? Is it due to the fact they are funneling more transcon pax via DEN w/the extra lift they added there or simply due to the more flexible contract allowing RJ's on hub to hub routes? I can see using these on Sat PM flights as they are generally light, but most of the time IAH is 6x mainline daily many times it used to go out w/753.


User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 853 posts, RR: 1
Reply 147, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9720 times:
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Quoting fun2fly (Reply 146):
Is it due to the fact they are funneling more transcon pax via DEN w/the extra lift

I think it is a LOT because of DEN and ORD. Where CO used to funnel connecting flights through IAH, the merged airline now has more options and DEN is a more logical choice for a number of reasons. Still odd to see.



Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlineYNGguins From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 513 posts, RR: 1
Reply 148, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9685 times:

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 145):

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 142):
Think YNG may have something to say about low fares in NEOHIO in due time. Leave you with that.

F9? NK? I doubt WN would go there at this point....

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 143):
I keep expecting a YNG-IAH flight to herald UA's return.

ORD, IAD, or EWR would seem more likely, but, hey, UA already runs ERJs on IAH-CLE, so, why not?

I would imagine that ORD would be the first hub to return to YNG, although I would not be surprised if IAD were to get it first. Regarding the low fares, Allegiant is continuing to grow at YNG, but there may be more. In the end, the millions of residents of Northeast Ohio should be fortunate to have so many options in terms of air travel from our local airports.



I am PROUD to live in the greatest country on earth: The United States of America!
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 149, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9648 times:

Not much, but its something: new CLE-Traverse City Michigan flights for the summer---1x weekly:


"(Traverse City, Michigan) March 19, 2013 – Cherry Capital Airport officials are pleased to announce that United Airlines will offer inbound and outbound summer-season service to and from United’s hub at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport beginning June 29...The weekend service on the 50-seat Embraer 145 regional jet aircraft begins on June 9th with a departure from Cleveland at 8:40 a.m., arriving TVC at 10 a.m.; the return flight will depart TVC 10:30 a.m., and arrive at 11:47 a.m. in Cleveland each Saturday June 9th through August 24th...."

TVC-new-service-Cleveland-Ohio.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.tvcairport.com/_pdf/TVC-new-service-Cleveland-Ohio.pdf

.


User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 150, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9602 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 149):
Not much, but its something: new CLE-Traverse City Michigan flights for the summer---1x weekly:

Even more random that 10 weeks of PDX service. Any idea what the reason behind this is all about?


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 151, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9518 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 149):
Not much, but its something: new CLE-Traverse City Michigan flights for the summer---1x weekly:

Traverse City and the Grand Traverse Bay area have long been popular summer resorts for Clevelanders. I'm surprised they didn't make it two a week to support 3 and 4 day stays.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8366 posts, RR: 23
Reply 152, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9534 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 151):
Traverse City and the Grand Traverse Bay area have long been popular summer resorts for Clevelanders. I'm surprised they didn't make it two a week to support 3 and 4 day stays.

I have no idea how 1x weekly service could even be worth the effort. It's Traverse City, not Antarctica.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5599 posts, RR: 7
Reply 153, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9471 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 152):
I have no idea how 1x weekly service could even be worth the effort.

I guess it works for resorts. UA does it for Nassau and San Juan; they did it for Quebec and Albuquerque for a couple of years.

I bet they're operating it under a guarantee from some travel agency. It's a full trip on Saturdays vs. the plane sitting idle.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 154, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9452 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 146):

Anyone know why they started E170's to IAH?

Because the new pilot contract allows it, previously under CO's contract the company could not fly regional jets nonstop between hubs. Now they can.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 155, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9424 times:

CLE Pax numbers for the latest published month (January) are up significantly YoY. This is good to see. Is this an anomaly or a trend? They don't publish Year End 2012 (vs 2011) numbers or even Dec to Dec figures.

Quite a big jump in Intl.

Domestic 619,040 (Jan 2013) vs 575,620 (Jan 2012) + 7.54%
International 13,330 (Jan 2013) vs 11,247 (Jan 2012) +18.52%

Total 632,370 (Jan 2013) vs 586,867 (Jan 2012) + 7.75%

CLE/Airport-Facts.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.clevelandairport.com/Airp...Guide/About-CLE/Airport-Facts.aspx


User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3867 posts, RR: 34
Reply 156, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9347 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 155):
They don't publish Year End 2012 (vs 2011) numbers or even Dec to Dec figures.

Actually, they do, but the info only stays on the website for one month until January's totals are posted. Last year, CLE had 9.010,077 passengers. (see reply 52 in this thread.) Unfortunately, when I posted those totals, I didn't include the percentage change from 2011 totals to 2012 totals, but I remember 2012 year-end totals were down from 2011 year-end totals.

LoneStarMike


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 157, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9153 times:

^its pretty annoying---i wish Port Control would just post all the data like many other airport authorities...

User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 158, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9013 times:

Interesting update on the Conv Center and Medical Mart...see slides on advance bookings at the bottom of the article:

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-co...nd_under_budget_officials_say.html

In my lifetime, it's the only ontime under budget project I can ever remember.

Also, looking to add nearly 1,000 hotel rooms due to convention center.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/in...drury_plaza_if_approved_would.html

All this can't be bad for CLE.