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Number Of Flights Per Day At Major European Hubs?  
User currently offlineJaxMan19 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 95 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6575 times:

Does anyone have any information on the number of flights that major European airlines run at their hub per day?

Examples:
BA at LHR
AF at CDG
LH at FRA
LH at MUC
IB at MAD
AZ at FCO
KLM at AMS

Thanks!

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6532 times:

Quoting JaxMan19 (Thread starter):
Examples:
BA at LHR
AF at CDG
LH at FRA
LH at MUC
IB at MAD
AZ at FCO
KLM at AMS

For tomorrow's scheduled flights (mainline flights only)

BA @ LHR - 331
AF @ CDG - 304
LH @ FRA - 296
LH @ MUC - 162
IB @ MAD - 121
AZ @ FCO - 163
KL @ AMS - 143

To find stats like these for all airlines and all hubs, go to flightstats.com and go to Airport Scorecard or Airline Scorecard, pretty interesting information.

Jeremy


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 998 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days ago) and read 6325 times:

By looking at mainline flights in the month of January only, one gains a somewhat misleading view of the overall operation as:
- (1) January is the lowest month of the year,
- (2) Regional flights are close to 50% of operations.

Here are the data for all flights of these airlines on 25 Jan. 2013.

BA @ LHR - 329
AF @ CDG - 315
LH @ FRA - 381
LH @ MUC - 269
IB @ MAD - 239
AZ @ FCO - 177
KL @ AMS - 263


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days ago) and read 6274 times:

And for that matter, from the same source:

TK @ IST - 358


User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6235 times:

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 3):
TK @ IST - 358

Wow...TK is growing fast !

Quoting factsonly (Reply 2):
LH @ FRA - 381
Quoting factsonly (Reply 2):
LH @ MUC - 269
LH's German ops are a massive operation compared to other European carriers at their hubs !

[Edited 2013-01-25 00:35:30]

User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2729 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6136 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 4):
LH's German ops are a massive operation compared to other European carriers at their hubs !

That's because airlines like BA, AF, KL etc, have only on mega city to deal with domestically: Germany is very distributed between Munich, Cologne, Frankfurt, Berlin, Hamburg, etc...



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7693 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5826 times:

It is probably better to look at weekly rather than daily slots as many flights do not operate seven days a week. For example BA LHR-PHX flights used to be six times weekly with no flight on Wednesday. But BA did not have a once-weekly flight on Wednesday out of LHR or a once weekly flight on Thursday into LHR to, so to speak, balance the slots.

The number of slots operated is also a moving target. Taking BA as an example again they bought six daily LHR slot pairs from LH in the autumn of 2011 and then purchased BD and all their slots in April 2012 but will need to hand over 'remedy' slots to VS and UN this coming 31 March to satisfy the competition authorities on the BD purchase.

The number of slots available may vary with the specific timetable. So, for example, while there were a total of 9,294 LHR slots allocated at the start of the Winter 2011 Timetable and a very similar 9,296 at the start of the Winter 2012 Timetable, there were a not totally insignificant 2.5 per cent more, 9,524, allocated for the Timetable between these two at the start of Summer 2012.

Having said all of that here is the BA LHR data:

Start W11 Season (30 October 2011): 4,011 weekly slots. 43.2 per cent of the 9,294 total.

Start S12 Season (25 March 2011): 4,198 weekly slots. 44.1 per cent of the 9,524 total.

Start W12 Season (28 October 2011): 4,902 weekly slots. 52.7 per cent of the 9,296 total.

Source for the above data:

http://www.acl-uk.org/reportsStatistics.aspx?id=98&subjectId=33


User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5792 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 6):
but will need to hand over 'remedy' slots to VS and UN this coming 31 March to satisfy the competition authorities on the BD purchase.

I was just wondering if VS hold 'any' slots that were once not BA's ? Everytime BA expand it 'appears' they have to hand slots over to VS to shut SRB up ? Always worthwhile at any cost I'd imagine.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 2):
LH @ FRA - 381
Quoting factsonly (Reply 2):
LH @ MUC - 269

Anyone know what percentage of these are long-haul flights ?


User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5737 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
That's because airlines like BA, AF, KL etc, have only on mega city to deal with domestically: Germany is very distributed between Munich, Cologne, Frankfurt, Berlin, Hamburg, etc...

  

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 4):
LH's German ops are a massive operation compared to other European carriers at their hubs !

It is misleading to compare LH ops at FRA with BA at LHR and AF at CDG : BA and AF have a lot of ops from another aiport in the same city as their main hub (respectively LGW and ORY). ORY for instance works as a second hub for AF in Paris...



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7693 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5528 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 8):
It is misleading to compare LH ops at FRA with BA at LHR and AF at CDG : BA and AF have a lot of ops from another airport in the same city as their main hub (respectively LGW and ORY). ORY for instance works as a second hub for AF in Paris...

Every hub has distinct and often unique characteristics. If it is "misleading" to compare FRA with LHR and CDG because of BA's leisure flights from LGW and AF's domestic flights from ORY is it not also misleading to compare BA's operations at slot bound LHR with AF's at not-slot-bound CDG? And if this is correct we effectively have a situation where we cannot compare BA operations with LH's, BA's with AF's or LH's with AF's. So we end up with a situation that any comparison of the operations of any of the three largest European airlines would be "misleading"!

Indeed it is arguable that these differences are more important. For example here on a-net it has been often stated that BA is weak in Asia compared to LH. But this comparison must be "misleading". After all LHR has been slot-bound for many years making it considerably more difficult for BA to respond to the growing importance of the Asian market than it has been for LH operating out of FRA. But I find such a suggestion more than spurious. LH clearly is a strong,er player between Europe and Asia that is BA, full stop. This is fact. To suggest that this comparison is "misleading" would be, well, misleading.


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1618 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5444 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):

VV has a good point here.

I think Azure is confusing overall market size with airport, which has a bit of overlap but also may be very different. In Azure's case, we would be looking at LON, LFPx, and in the US WAS, NYC, LA. One could take a measure of BA's total LON service at all London airports just like one could for AF between CDG and ORY, or UA/AA/DL between JFK/LGA/EWR in the U.S. In each case there are issues like primarily leisure traffic (LGW and BWI), mostly domestic and some leisure (ORY), or a "downtown" business and O&D-focused airport (LCY, to some extent DCA or LGA) to muddy the waters. If we're comparing the major international hubs, then we have to stick with directly pitting LHR against CDG and FRA in Europe or a JFK or IAD in the U.S. Otherwise, how does one quantify the exact relationship between BA service to LCY and LGW vs. LHR, UA service from DCA even though they hub at IAD, or DL and AA at LGA since they both hub at JFK? In each case the airports combine to serve the regional market, but each has it's niche. You have to compare similar airports to similar airports.


User currently offlineflyingfool From Netherlands, joined May 2005, 441 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5104 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 2):
KL @ AMS - 263

For today, 25th of January, KL has 258 arrivals and 260 departures from AMS.
AMS in total will see 534 arrivals and 542 departures on this same day.

Mike


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3232 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
For tomorrow's scheduled flights (mainline flights only)

BA @ LHR - 331
AF @ CDG - 304
LH @ FRA - 296
LH @ MUC - 162
IB @ MAD - 121
AZ @ FCO - 163
KL @ AMS - 143

It doesn't make sense to exclude regional flights, for example KLM CityHopper flights using E-190s and Fokker 70s at AMS. They are a huge component of KL's operations at AMS and it makes no difference to passengers whether they're on a KL mainline or CityHopper flight.


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2931 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
It doesn't make sense to exclude regional flights, for example KLM CityHopper flights using E-190s and Fokker 70s at AMS. They are a huge component of KL's operations at AMS and it makes no difference to passengers whether they're on a KL mainline or CityHopper flight.

The original question asked about flights for specific carriers at specific carriers, which is what was done. If you'd like to add regional service to the equation then be my guest. No one is contesting what you're saying but I simply posted what was asked. The information is readily available so people can do with it as they wish.

Jeremy


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2877 times:

Quoting Azure (Reply 8):
ORY for instance works as a second hub for AF in Paris..

"Hub" implies connecting traffic. Isn't ORY mostly O&D? What percentage of ORY traffic is connecting there?.

It's similar at LGW which is mainly an O&D airport with little connecting traffic.


User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1857 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
"Hub" implies connecting traffic. Isn't ORY mostly O&D? What percentage of ORY traffic is connecting there?.

AF ops at ORY are in majority O&D but quite a lot of pax are connecting there from province to province when there is no direct link and also a lot of connections to/from overseas departments & territories (RUN, CAY, FDF, PTP). Also, there are quite a significant number of pax whose connection involves a ground transfer between CDG and ORY (short-haul flight to/from ORY connecting to/from a long-haul flight at CDG). I have never seen precise figures of % pax connecting in ORY. I would say something like 20-25% (but that's just my 2c    )


User currently offline1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):
Every hub has distinct and often unique characteristics. If it is "misleading" to compare FRA with LHR and CDG because of BA's leisure flights from LGW and AF's domestic flights from ORY is it not also misleading to compare BA's operations at slot bound LHR with AF's at not-slot-bound CDG? And if this is correct we effectively have a situation where we cannot compare BA operations with LH's, BA's with AF's or LH's with AF's. So we end up with a situation that any comparison of the operations of any of the three largest European airlines would be "misleading"!

Indeed it is arguable that these differences are more important. For example here on a-net it has been often stated that BA is weak in Asia compared to LH. But this comparison must be "misleading". After all LHR has been slot-bound for many years making it considerably more difficult for BA to respond to the growing importance of the Asian market than it has been for LH operating out of FRA. But I find such a suggestion more than spurious. LH clearly is a strong,er player between Europe and Asia that is BA, full stop. This is fact. To suggest that this comparison is "misleading" would be, well, misleading.

I think one should also consider that unlike CDG, FRA etc LHR has two UK registered long-haul carriers based there operating long-haul routes.

It therefore maybe necessary to combine the operations of both BA and VS in this instance to improve the accuracy of the comparison ?

If we are comparing on a national level that is rather than individual airlines ?


User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 890 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2482 times:

So, how many daily AF flights at ORY? just to know.

User currently offlineAzure From France, joined Dec 2012, 629 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2392 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 15):
AF ops at ORY are in majority O&D but quite a lot of pax are connecting there from province to province when there is no direct link and also a lot of connections to/from overseas departments & territories (RUN, CAY, FDF, PTP). Also, there are quite a significant number of pax whose connection involves a ground transfer between CDG and ORY (short-haul flight to/from ORY connecting to/from a long-haul flight at CDG).

This is correct, ORY is indeed a second hub for AF and there is for sure a lot of connecting passengers between ORY and CDG (AF runs direct buses between the two airports every 30 minutes or so, and the RER B train connects the two airports). As a matter of fact, when you need to connect in Paris to/from a long haul to/from a domestic flight, the best fares on AF often include a ground transfer between CDG and ORY... There would be a lot to say about this AF policy but it is actually how it works at the present time.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 13):

This is an interesting debate and I have to admit each of us is right from his own perspective, but after all there is not one absolute truth in this world.
If the point is to simply answer the thread starter's question, then SESGDL has given the figures, the discussion is over, this thread can be closed and everyone can deduct whatever they want from these (gross) figures. But the reality may be slightly different. As Viscount724 has rightfully noted, "It doesn't make sense to exclude regional flights" operated by an airline subsidiary. And as Goldorak and I have noted, there can be connectivity between two hubs located in the same city.
For an airline, the number of ops, i.e. the number of flights (=COST) is less interesting than the number of pax (=REVENUE) they carry.
For a passanger, bearing in mind that indeed "you have to compare similar airports to similar airports" as noted by LHCVG, the number of FLIGHTS available daily at one hub is less interesting than the number of CONNECTIONS available in a limited, acceptable time range (e.g. 2 to 4 hours). This number of available connections is more relevant than the number of flights in order to measure how well a hub performs, if anyone here cares to know.
As a conclusion, the number of flights operated daily at one hub fails to indicate :
- the passenger traffic at said hub
- the number of connections available
- the number of cities served
- the market share of the main airline at said hub
etc...
I therefore maintain that the sole number of ops is or can be misleading.



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - A. de Saint Exupery
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 998 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2366 times:

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 17):
So, how many daily AF flights at ORY? just to know.

AF at ORY had about 130 departures on Friday 25 January 2013.


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