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FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13  
User currently onlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3705 posts, RR: 12
Posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 21439 times:
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http://avherald.com/h?article=45cb7632&opt=0

Av Herald is showing an MD-11 tail strike in DEN today. Looks like N618FE will be on the ground for some time.


Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecornutt From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 338 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 21247 times:

Ouch! Buckled the floor... I wonder what it did to the rear bulkhead.

User currently offlineKC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 21015 times:

Sadly I think we may be looking at the end of another beautiful Trijet. Thanks FEDEX for wrecking another one.

User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5590 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20932 times:

Those pictures don't look bad at all. The report of a buckled floor is troubling, but somehow, based on the apparent exterior damage, I'm thinking the report is exaggerated.


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineSPaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1975 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20894 times:

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 2):
Sadly I think we may be looking at the end of another beautiful Trijet. Thanks FEDEX for wrecking another one.

Hopefully not. They recently bought two other MD-11s as sources for spare parts. At least, this one didn't end up belly up or in the water, isn't it FedEx ?



I wish I was a glow worm.
User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20897 times:
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Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
Those pictures don't look bad at all. The report of a buckled floor is troubling, but somehow, based on the apparent exterior damage, I'm thinking the report is exaggerated.



That's what sucks about these... they DID report a "Hard Landing" and external appearances are most always deceiving. If they reported a "buckled floor" then it's a lot worse than it looks!

Regards,
135Mech


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5909 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20734 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
Those pictures don't look bad at all. The report of a buckled floor is troubling, but somehow, based on the apparent exterior damage, I'm thinking the report is exaggerated.

Unfortunately, the main damage didn't come from the tailstrike, it came from the impact. They could be quite lucky, today, that they didn't experience yet another classic MD-11 failure mode- hit too hard, rip main wing spars, lose the plane.

Also, photos of tailstrike damage rarely tell the whole story; you can't tell from an exterior photo that the aft pressure bulkhead is buckled, for example.

Quoting 135mech (Reply 5):
That's what sucks about these... they DID report a "Hard Landing" and external appearances are most always deceiving. If they reported a "buckled floor" then it's a lot worse than it looks!

Yup yup. Bad day for 618.


User currently offlineMd88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1334 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20726 times:

Buckled floor = major, major $ and time. Maybe more than the airframe is worth? Probably more than the airframe is worth.

User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4732 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 20408 times:

Lucky it wasn't worse.


A very unforgiving Aircraft bites again.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1975 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 20262 times:

The MD-11 has proven to be tricky to handle especially during approach and landing. But once more, it did happen again with FedEx. So unless any outside element like a gust of wind occurred at the last moment, I find it interesting that both FedEx and UPS operate a large fleet of MD-11, one for longer than the other, and still, one company's aircraft were involved in several incidents or accidents, while the other's seem to go the other way while both companies handle the same kind of cargo.


I wish I was a glow worm.
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1567 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 20011 times:

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 9):
The MD-11 has proven to be tricky to handle especially during approach and landing. But once more, it did happen again with FedEx. So unless any outside element like a gust of wind occurred at the last moment, I find it interesting that both FedEx and UPS operate a large fleet of MD-11, one for longer than the other, and still, one company's aircraft were involved in several incidents or accidents, while the other's seem to go the other way while both companies handle the same kind of cargo.

Simple, it's the handling differences between the MD-10 and MD-11. Fed Ex is the only airline in the world that crews are dual qualified on the MD-10 and 11. Because of the dual qualifications, the crews are not as proficient in the aircraft as their competitors are with the 11s. When you add up a tricky aircraft to land, with a crew who hasn't flown a Md-11 trip in a while and is not as proficient as someone who flies nothing but the MD-11, then you will surely have more incidents with the type! After the crash of the Md-11 in Japan, it was the widely debated between Fed Ex crews about splitting the fleet up as far as pilot qualifications go. Fed Ex I believe shot down those ideas due to cost issues as well as guarantees from Boeing in regards to the flight deck overhauls on the DC-10s



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 19860 times:

That don't look good....I guess it will takes a few days to determine how bad the damage is. I suspect that if the damage is too much to fix vs. the value of the plane that this will get parted out to keep some other MD-11's flying.
Was there any reason to believe that was a cargo shift ?


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3235 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 16726 times:

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 9):
So unless any outside element like a gust of wind occurred at the last moment, I find it interesting that both FedEx and UPS operate a large fleet of MD-11, one for longer than the other, and still, one company's aircraft were involved in several incidents or accidents, while the other's seem to go the other way while both companies handle the same kind of cargo.

UPS did crack an MD-11 tail a few months ago at SDF, flown by management pilots. It was swiftly put in the hangar; needless to say it didn't make the headlines.



FLYi
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31692 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 16681 times:

The pictures don't seem serious enough.....Any inside views......


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14913 times:

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 2):
Thanks FEDEX for wrecking another one.

VERY uncalled for remark dude! You weren't there and don't have a clue what happened. 12 yr. MD-11 Capt Fedex Ret.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
Was there any reason to believe that was a cargo shift ?

very doubtful.


User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1975 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 13704 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 10):
Simple, it's the handling differences between the MD-10 and MD-11. Fed Ex is the only airline in the world that crews are dual qualified on the MD-10 and 11. Because of the dual qualifications, the crews are not as proficient in the aircraft as their competitors are with the 11s. When you add up a tricky aircraft to land, with a crew who hasn't flown a Md-11 trip in a while and is not as proficient as someone who flies nothing but the MD-11, then you will surely have more incidents with the type! After the crash of the Md-11 in Japan, it was the widely debated between Fed Ex crews about splitting the fleet up as far as pilot qualifications go. Fed Ex I believe shot down those ideas due to cost issues as well as guarantees from Boeing in regards to the flight deck overhauls on the DC-10s

Thanks for your reply. I should have remembered the dual qualification.



I wish I was a glow worm.
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4732 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11720 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 10):
After the crash of the Md-11 in Japan, it was the widely debated between Fed Ex crews about splitting the fleet up as far as pilot qualifications go. Fed Ex I believe shot down those ideas due to cost issues as well as guarantees from Boeing in regards to the flight deck overhauls on the DC-10s

You don't save much money when you're crashing them all the time..



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7008 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11205 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 16):

You don't save much money when you're crashing them all the time..

   Best summation yet.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineAerowrench From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10766 times:

Its all about the wing loading...Glad to see this crew walk away with nothing more than a possible bruised ego.

User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 10544 times:

It's never good when you leave aircraft parts behind on the runway.

You never know what will actually happen at the end of the runway until you arrive there, weatherwise.


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 10383 times:

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 9):
But once more, it did happen again with FedEx.

Fedex has more flights on the type than anyone, ever. It makes sense that they would have the most incidents.

Quoting Aerowrench (Reply 18):
Its all about the wing loading.

And the empennage, which is 40% smaller than a DC-10's, creates interesting handling situations at landing according to accounts from a number of very experienced captains.

The single type certification for two planes with such different handling attitudes is very interesting to me, since I'm not a pilot I perhaps don't understand where the line would be drawn between what constitutes common and what does not.
It can't just be the cockpit, otherwise the MD-11 would have always been the same rating as the DC-10, different 747s wouldn't be the same rating, and 737s would not all carry the same rating.

Airbus and Boeing discuss their FBW systems as enabling common qualifications - Airbus planes from the A318 to the A380 are said to handle quite similarly, according to them.

NS


User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1567 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10129 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 16):
You don't save much money when you're crashing them all the time..

Well, if insurance pays for it, I guess you would be still saving money! But then again, Fed Ex clearly has no idea how to run an airline, apparently!  



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4732 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9808 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 21):

Well, if insurance pays for it, I guess you would be still saving money! But then again, Fed Ex clearly has no idea how to run an airline, apparently!

Insurance doesn't pay all the costs resulting from a crash, the damage is enormous, for passenger Airlines it can run over a Billion dollars easily.


Freight operators are, by their very nature 'lower profile' and their accidents are soon forgotten but the costs are still there and the effect on their insurance premiums as well.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9668 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 20):
It can't just be the cockpit, otherwise the MD-11 would have always been the same rating as the DC-10,

Don't follow that since the MD-11 cockpit and DC-10 cockpit is totally different. It's the MD-11 and the MD-10 that has like cockpits but the handling differences are completely different. One flies like a MD-11 and the other flies like a DC-10.


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2780 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9362 times:

Isn't it a little bit funny that the 787 has been grounded but the MD 11 keeps on flying even though there have been a series of accidents and incidents with the MD 11, which can be clearly linked to the design of the MD 11 (i.e. the fact that MD decided to keep the same wing as for the DC 10).

I am fully aware that I am comparing apples with organges since the 788 has only a limited number of flying hours compared to the MD 11. But still, I think every a.netter will confirm that within the next 5 years there will be another serious landing accident with the MD 11 a là LH MD 11 in Saudi Arabia, Fedex MD 11 in Japan etc.). So, applying the same standards as for the 788 should the (cargo) airlines start to phase out the MD 11s?


25 gigneil : Sorry, that was somewhat the opposite of what I meant to say.... I meant that if it were just the cockpit, none of those other types would have commo
26 Darksnowynight : Seriously. People keep talking about that (more on the site linked to than here at any rate), but I haven't seen anything that says floor damage actu
27 CosmicCruiser : Correct, it's the fact that the systems are identical (with some subtle exceptions). What used to be a manually operated system in -10 became an auto
28 SEPilot : Seeveral operators have flown the MD-11 for very long times with no serious incidents; FX has had way more than their share. I don't think UPS has ha
29 Post contains links FlyingAY : There's this one in Louisville: UPS MD-11 Awaits Repair After June Incident (by Jeffry747 Sep 8 2005 in Civil Aviation)
30 UALAMT : I personaly inspected this A/C lastnight and in my opinion it will be scrapped.The aft bulkhead is buckled ,in fact the frame in that entire area are
31 flyinryan99 : It will cost them at least $1M (deductible) if the cost exceeds that. Also, with most, if not all airlines, they are co-insured where insurance compa
32 KC135Hydraulics : Can you provide some credentials, perhaps? Not that it really matters, this is just the internet, but if you legitimately did this inspection then it
33 cornutt : I see on Av Herald today that the FAA has re-categorized this incident as an accident.
34 SEPilot : If I were in the insurance business and was insuring FX, I would be VERY concerned as to why they have had so many MD-11 incidents, which is totally
35 Max Q : Well said, just having a common cockpit does not bestow common handling characteristics ! Having a dedicated group of Pilots that only flies the MD11
36 DocLightning : You have a very good point. For the few MD-11 frames there are out there, there are a lot of landing incidents owing to the handling characteristics
37 CosmicCruiser : Folks this is getting a little extreme. We all agree that the -11 CAN be a little tricky sometimes but not every landing is a handful. As I said befo
38 davidho1985 : China Gov only banned Chinese's airline to operate MD11. Same as 787, all airlines from China are not allowed to operate 787, but foreign airlines ar
39 DocLightning : Ah. Thank you for the clarification.
40 type-rated : [quote=Max Q,reply=22]Insurance doesn't pay all the costs resulting from a crash, the damage is enormous, for passenger Airlines it can run over a Bil
41 longhauler : Perhaps with regard to that one hull. But all DC-10 operators lost a considerable amount of money due to the grounding of the type initiated by that
42 akelley728 : What? The following Chinese airlines have the 787 on order: Air China 15 787-9 China Southern 15 787-8 Hainan AIrliners 10 787-8
43 AA737-823 : Indeed; yet the Chinese government has forbidden their acceptance. Several Chinese 787s are ready for delivery up in Seattle, but the CAAC won't issu
44 BasilFawlty : China Cargo Airlines still has three MD-11F's in operation?
45 Max Q : Perhaps they made a profit on the hull but so what ? You need to consider the massive loss of revenue from the grounding and the expense of the bad p
46 davidho1985 : The ban is imposed after the KE crash in Shanghai. In addition, I have read a news state that following the retirment of the remaining MD-XX in CZ fl
47 flyinryan99 : This may be true if they insured the hull for a value higher then what they paid for it. However, they would not have "made money" from insurance as
48 msp747 : This has been an issue for months, long before the battery problems surfaced with the 787 and the grounding that followed. It is not the reason the p
49 msp747 : Sad to see a rare tri-holer go out like this. As difficult as the plane may be to handle (depending on whom you ask of course), I have always enjoy w
50 Rage : Don't write this plane off just yet.
51 Max Q : That is already a regular occurence..
52 Post contains links lightsaber : I too have to wonder if FedEx has an issue with training (e.g., MD-10/MD-11 commonality) or fatigue. It just seems like FedEx has more than their shar
53 crjavionics : Well no matter who is to blame, the latest status of the plane (from an inside contact) is that the aft pressure bulkhead has been damaged. The plan i
54 Darksnowynight : Well, if you can, let us know when it will be ferried. Might be neat to get over there (I'm assuming it will over where FX does some of their heavier
55 Post contains links and images 71Zulu : http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N618FE http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...E/history/20130204/1500Z/KDEN/KLAX Well, we missed the ferry flight,
56 Darksnowynight : Wow, that has to be about 2,000 mi. Oh well, I think I know where they'll put it. I'll see if I can have a look at work tonight...
57 Revelation : Interesting - who does such work at LAX?
58 135mech : Just out of curiousity...why LAX and not back to Memphis? If their base is in Memphis, why go the opposite direction? Yes, Palmdale is near it, but wi
59 wrenchon727 : It will be repaired in house. LAX does in house C checks and have done extensive repair like this in the past.
60 135mech : Cool, thanks for the info! 135Mech
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