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North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"  
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1029 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18193 times:
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"the average fleet age in North America is higher than Africa"..... ouch

Must be all the MD80s and 767s in North American fleets.

Delta, American, and Aeromexico operate lots of MD80s and 767s...

USAirways' 757s are very old too

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/north...planes-kcVxcivFTiGz2B7nYMzBGw.html

[Edited 2013-01-25 15:44:08]

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18149 times:

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
"the average fleet age in North America is higher than Africa"..... ouch

Aircraft age is unrelated to safety. Compare the safety record of North American airlines with Africa (and almost everywhere else in the world).


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1029 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17956 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Aircraft age is unrelated to safety. Compare the safety record of North American airlines with Africa (and almost everywhere else in the world).

you do understand that I'm quoting the journalist from the video right?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17923 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Aircraft age is unrelated to safety. Compare the safety record of North American airlines with Africa (and almost everywhere else in the world).

you do understand that I'm quoting the journalist from the video right?

I was only commenting on the relationship of aircraft age to safety, as that's usually the point most people try to make when talking about older aircraft.


User currently offlineKC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17872 times:

I fly on 50 year old aircraft regularly and have never once felt unsafe. Age isn't indicative of safety as someone else mentioned.

User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1867 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17745 times:

but if the cabin isn't refreshed and revamped from time to time, the old plane will be less comfortable.

User currently offlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17674 times:

What determines the ultimate end life.....ignoring mandated life limits...of an airplane. All the mechanical parts can be replaced, cockpits upgraded, interiors changed, and engines swapped. I would presume that corrosion of the airframe would be one issue...sealing of the fuel tanks maybe.

Jim


User currently offlinedtwlax From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17506 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
I was only commenting on the relationship of aircraft age to safety, as that's usually the point most people try to make when talking about older aircraft.

Not necessarily. Older aircrafts can be uncomfortable if the interiors are not refreshed. Old worn out seats do not leave a good impression on the passenger.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17458 times:

OK, please don't flame, but is it really true that aircraft age is absolutely unrelated to safety? That is to say, I fully understand well-maintained older aircraft to be safe, but I merely pose the question about how well-maintained new aircraft compare to well-maintained older ones. I ask with no expectation or bias, other than to obtain some kind of statistically valid answer.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently onlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17432 times:

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
the average fleet age in North America is higher than Africa

The fleet is several magnitudes larger too. The top African airlines (ET, KQ, SA, MS etc) do indeed have modern fleets, but although they are pretty small compared to US carriers, it will still sway the average fleet age significantly on the continent. Lots of national or "major" airlines have a total fleet of just a handful of aircraft.



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User currently offlinea380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1118 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17395 times:

What I don't get is that Airbus and Boeing are selling their products based on performance. How can old metal compete with brand new models? I don't doubt that these airlines are run competently. Are new Boeings and Airbuses not so good after all? I don't get it.

User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1029 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17384 times:
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Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8):
OK, please don't flame, but is it really true that aircraft age is absolutely unrelated to safety? That is to say, I fully understand well-maintained older aircraft to be safe, but I merely pose the question about how well-maintained new aircraft compare to well-maintained older ones. I ask with no expectation or bias, other than to obtain some kind of statistically valid answer.

If they're well maintained (to Western Standards), and flown by a reputable airline, I feel as safe in a MD80,DC9,or 737-200 as I do in a new 737-900 or A319..

Actually I'd love to fly in a DC10 again.. i really want to do that


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17369 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Aircraft age is unrelated to safety. Compare the safety record of North American airlines with Africa (and almost everywhere else in the world).

However, aircraft age does have a strong correlation to fuel efficiency.

All these old gas guzzlers are hurting our environment.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6132 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 17264 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
Actually I'd love to fly in a DC10 again.. i really want to do that

Just one left...I think Biman Bangladesh has the last active passenger DC-10 on the planet.

There are a couple of other options.... I can't tell you how many times I ended up on a KC-10 flying somewhere to do something  



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinetonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day ago) and read 17031 times:
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Quoting a380900 (Reply 10):
What I don't get is that Airbus and Boeing are selling their products based on performance. How can old metal compete with brand new models? I don't doubt that these airlines are run competently. Are new Boeings and Airbuses not so good after all? I don't get it.

I don't think there is any doubt that the latest A & B generation of aircraft are much better and more efficient than their older counterparts. Without being an economics expert, I would guess that it works out cheaper and is better for cashflow to fly around 20 year old airplanes that have long since been paid for even if they burn a little more fuel than it is to run up massive debts in this world of restricted credit availability to buy the newest generation of aircraft. Add to this the fact that unlike the likes of the L1011/DC10/DC8 (many of the last operators of these types ditched them because there were so few of them left), there are still plenty of B757s, B767s and MD-80s in active service, meaning that there is no shortage of spare parts and support systems to keep them operating.

Long story short, it works out cheaper to spend a little more on gas and spare parts than it is to run up massive debts to buy new planes.



Next Flights: CX178 MEL-HKG; CX257 HKG-LHR; EI387 LHR-SNN; EI384 SNN-LHR; CX250 LHR-HKG; CX135 HKG-MEL
User currently offlineGSPflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 369 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day ago) and read 16868 times:

Fleet size seems to correlate with age. Everyone knows that most of the time, airlines must wait years from ordering a new aircraft to receive it. We also know that North American carriers are larger than most others. I did a little research, and came up with the following numbers. (Numbers don't include regional airlines/subsidies)

Airline.....Fleet Size.......Avg. Age (years)

North America
DL...........722..................16.4
UA..........707..................13.4
AA..........605...................14.8
WN.........585...................11.6
US..........348..................12.5
AC..........330...................12.5

Europe
LH...........306...................12.6
BA..........256....................13
AF...........253...................10
KL..........115....................9.6
IB............95....................9.7

Asia
NH...........170...................11.1
KE...........149...................9.5
CX............135...................10

Australia/New Zealand
QF............135...................10.4
NZ.............50.....................9.8


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day ago) and read 16801 times:

Quoting airtechy (Reply 6):
What determines the ultimate end life.....ignoring mandated life limits...of an airplane. All the mechanical parts can be replaced, cockpits upgraded, interiors changed, and engines swapped. I would presume that corrosion of the airframe would be one issue...sealing of the fuel tanks maybe.

Money. The airplane will age to the point where is is not economically feasible to keep it flying anymore. Every part can be swapped to keep an older airplane flying, but as the plane gets older, it becomes more maintenance intensive as well as using more fuel than newer aircraft. Every airline is different when it comes to determining when a given airplane is due to be retired.


User currently offlineAussieItaliano From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 17 hours ago) and read 14960 times:

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 17):

North America
DL...........722..................16.4
UA..........707..................13.4
AA..........605...................14.8
WN.........585...................11.6
US..........348..................12.5
AC..........330...................12.5

Europe
LH...........306...................12.6
BA..........256....................13
AF...........253...................10
KL..........115....................9.6
IB............95....................9.7

That's amazing to think that WN has a fleet larger than LH and BA combined! I realise that LH and BA operate aircraft with many more seats than the 737, but still, that is amazing that a US carrier that doesn't operate outside of North America has a fleet larger than 2 carriers combined, each of which has a well-developed worldwide network.

Which I think is exactly the point. While North American carriers are renewing their fleets, and for the most part, they are constantly taking delivery of new planes, they cannot do so at a pace to have a brand new fleet every 10-15 years, simply because their fleets are massive. Wait until FR and U2 have been operating on the same scale for over 30 years, and you'll see their fleets age as well without being able to be replaced straightaway.

In addition, the early 2000s saw a huge decline in air travel in the USA (most of North America's air traffic) in response to the 2001 terrorist attacks, leading most airlines to suspend or even cancel deliveries of new aircraft. UA, US, DL, and NW (now part of DL) all went through bankruptcy during this time (AC did as well). So, in essence, North American carriers were not in a position to take delivery of entire fleets of new airplanes.



LHR - The Capital of the World
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9746 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 17 hours ago) and read 14745 times:

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 17):
LH...........306...................12.6
BA..........256....................13

These figures are wrong, even before LH phased out a larger number of 735/733/744s last year as well as phasing out complete all Avro/HS146 jets the average was at 11.2 or so.

It should now be aroiund 10, or even under 10 years in average.

More 744s will leave this year as will 737s and new A320 and 5x 748 will join the fleet and reeduce the average.

LH and Regional hjas a total of 403 aircraft, if OS and LX are added the total makes 572



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 1323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 16 hours ago) and read 14451 times:

The huge advantage of those old planes is that there is no capital expenditure. Those planes are paid for. It means you can even have the luxury of parking one of those as a fleet reserve at your hub and use it if another plane has a technical.

User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1029 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 16 hours ago) and read 14257 times:
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Quoting seahawk (Reply 21):

Correct these old planes have no capital expenditure, but higher fuel and maintenance costs. It evens out at the end


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 13 hours ago) and read 12301 times:

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
"the average fleet age in North America is higher than Africa"..... ouch

Must be all the MD80s and 767s in North American fleets.

Delta, American, and Aeromexico operate lots of MD80s and 767s...

USAirways' 757s are very old too

From an aviation enthusiast's point of view - and this is a forum for aviation enthusiasts, correct? - this is actually not too bad. I am writing these lines from China and I can tell you, all the airports here, the big ones as well as all the provincial ones - are so boring. Only 738s and A 320s. I am even no longer looking out of the window during take-off and landing, in opposite to landing in Miami, where I typically freak out while watching all these rarities in the maintenance area.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
These figures are wrong

Well, let's say they are not up to date. However, it shows a trend and I find it very interesting.


User currently offlineb2319 From China, joined Jan 2013, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 12 hours ago) and read 11334 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 23):
I am writing these lines from China and I can tell you, all the airports here, the big ones as well as all the provincial ones - are so boring. Only 738s and A 320s.

My last two flights have been Airbus A300s between SHA and SZX.

Please look at the daily variety of aircraft between PEK and SHA/PVG: A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A343/B733/B73G/B738/B744/B772

But let's not let the facts get in the way of a good argument, eh?

Regards

B-2319


User currently offlinecontext From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 12 hours ago) and read 11217 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8):
OK, please don't flame, but is it really true that aircraft age is absolutely unrelated to safety? That is to say, I fully understand well-maintained older aircraft to be safe, but I merely pose the question about how well-maintained new aircraft compare to well-maintained older ones. I ask with no expectation or bias, other than to obtain some kind of statistically valid answer.

I too would like to see a strictly statistical analysis. We all have our opinions of what's comfortable or which planes seem to have the most MX delay but anyone know where we could get some hard numbers for this?


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10655 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 12 hours ago) and read 11199 times:

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
"the average fleet age in North America is higher than Africa"..... ouch

Better to have a well maintained, older fleet than a poorly maintained, newer fleet, I would think.  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
25 cosyr : I accept what you are saying. Everything can be maintained and refreshed and an old airplane can be as safe as a new one, but a new one doesn't have
26 boeingrulz : One of the reasons that there are some companies that can dramatically replace their fleets with new airplanes is that money is cheap right now and in
27 bogota : And even better to have newer well maintained fleets. From an enthusiast point of view seeing the newer generation of vintage aircraft all over US ai
28 Post contains links GSPflyer : This is my source for the information; http://airsafe.com/events/airlines/fleetage.htm
29 mayor : Are the passengers willing to pay for it?
30 PanHAM : The current active 23 747s have an average age of 12,26 years, not 14,6 just to mention one. The fleet does not contain the LH regional jets which fur
31 bogota : I do not seem to recall US airfares cheaper than the rest of the world.
32 Flighty : Our market is competitive. The market does not allow big spending for aircraft that don't provide a direct financial return. Other countries need to w
33 mayor : But they probably cheaper, here, than they used to be, when inflation is figured in. To get the kind of service (which the U.S. carriers are more tha
34 Post contains images mayor : Makes you wonder what happens with this theory when DL, WN, UA and AA start to take delivery of all the a/c they have on order........
35 Post contains images L410Turbolet : They are, but at the same time the old airplanes have been fully paid for long time ago and they are now only making money for the airline (minus nec
36 bogota : Not as much then, if the market allows for lower quality service and no company can change that trend it is not a competitive market. Maybe the large
37 bogota : That could be true, but on the other hand they are the nicest people you run into when you fly in the US. When I see a mature person in my cabin I ge
38 lightsaber : Just AA riding themselves of the MD-80 and DL replacing DC-9s with 717s will skew the numbers quite a bit. With the immanent 'fast retirement' of 757
39 Post contains images mayor : Maybe Virgin America should ask the legacies how to be profitable......
40 bogota : Especially AA... anyhow if the service you get is what you are actually expecting then I guess then again they are doing what that market wants. It m
41 tan1mill : If a plane from the 50's is still flying, I feel that's a testament to how safe it really is.
42 okie73 : None of the airlines in the U.S. receive government subsidies. That is a big factor.
43 RussianJet : As do I, absolutely, but that really wasn't the point of my question. Not saying, asking. I am making no assertion of any kind. Sure thing. But still
44 LN-KGL : Since you have said A, now you have to start listing airlines that receive government subsidies. I suggest you start with one of the airlines with th
45 xaapb : IIRC AM dosen't operate any MD80 anymore, all of them had been replace with 737NG, as for the 767 they have according to planespotter 7 767s: 5 767-2
46 hOmsAR : I'm not sure how long ago you were a kid, but in the 90s (since you're referring to US airlines from 20 years ago, I'll pick that time), airlines wer
47 gigneil : I dunno. A lot of those older seats are much, much more comfortable. That's the thing, Virgin can't compete. They cannot charge enough more for their
48 L410Turbolet : What about JetBlue, can they compete? Their product seems to be quite similar to VX.[Edited 2013-01-26 16:05:16]
49 mayor : As for flying to be "better" in the good old days, here's a quote from the Air Transport Association: "A round-trip coach ticket between New York and
50 gigneil : Here's the thing. JetBlue addressed a market with demand - low cost, domestic service from JFK. They faced very little competition on the routes they
51 Cubsrule : I can. New build airports are nice regardless of where they are, but among large hubs only DEN fits in that category in the United States and it is n
52 dc9northwest : Good. Another thing to like about aviation in the USA. I'll put that on the list with free upgrades and real business class seating. Let's just say my
53 Post contains images cmf : You may not like it but environmental concerns are reality. No it is not. Plenty of small airlines with very old average to disprove that theory. Fle
54 Cubsrule : What you are missing is that there are a finite number of delivery slots and, obviously, many customers. So if DL decided today to replace all remain
55 Post contains images macc : From an enthusiast point of view i am travelling to DFW today on AA 767. Dont care at all for the age of the plane, but being stuck in that tube for 1
56 incitatus : Your statement is usually accepted as true. But here is another kink on this: Are newer airframe designs safer than older ones. If so, older fleets a
57 PanAm788 : I'd say the DC-9 is a "safer" design than the MD-11 and the DC-9 is much older. The Comet was likewise less safe than the vast majority of the previo
58 hOmsAR : Those are somewhat apples-oranges comparisons. The Comet was an entry into what was then brand new technology with very little understood about the f
59 mayor : However, I doubt if the fleets compared in the original article have a 40 year differentiation between them.....more like 20 years (with the exceptio
60 N14AZ : Let me start by saying that I didn't intend to say anything negative about your country or the civil aviation of your country. All my domestic eight
61 incitatus : True but those are two designs with defects. Electras and Stratocruisers had issues as well. Soon after EIS aircraft will have problems not detected
62 mayor : What if that fleet of new a/c is NOT well maintained? Doesn't that change the argument, slightly?
63 peanuts : So, we are having an argument over "old" planes, yet the rest of the world is just at the dawn of the mess US carriers just went through over the past
64 cmf : Can you expand on this because I'm not able to make heads or tails of what you're trying to say.
65 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Newer aircraft most likely will not be able to be used as long as some of the older aircraft. Newer aircraft are manufactured to lower minimums as eng
66 FlyingAY : I would also expect that the certification requirements for new aircraft these days are more strict than the requirements were in 1960s for example.
67 gigneil : Fibreglass and composites will live nearly twice or 3 times as long under compression as aluminum. The 787's fuselage has a practically unlimited lif
68 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Did you ever try and repair fiberglass or composite materials. It is not as simple as aluminum.
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