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Loss-making Flybe To Axe 300 Staff  
User currently offlinebmibaby737 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1810 posts, RR: 9
Posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9130 times:

FLYBE chief executive Jim French ­has announced the first jobs cull in the firm’s 30-year history in a sweeping attempt to steer the airline back to profit.

The airline lunched part one of a two phase turn-around plan, which initially involves axing 300 jobs around the country. According to news reports, most of the job losses are expected to be at Flybe’s Exeter headquarters as well as Manchester and Newcastle. The restructuring is expected to cost between £10m and £12m.

The group is also considering outsourcing some support activities in addition to the redundancies, having already outsourced its call centre last month with the loss of 55 jobs. More than 100 jobs in catering, ground services and line maintenance could be transferred out of the company, too.

Meanwhile the airline has said it will be selling four aircraft, and today launched a new Birmingham-Lyon route to be operated daily by an Embraer 175.

Lets hope phase two has some more constructive initiatives.

Just one of the many press releases online:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21157000

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesandyb123 From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2007, 1108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9075 times:
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I flew BE for the first time on Monday and return Tuesday EDI-BHD. Loads were quite light at ~ 30 pax each way. Was ok but the crew seemed somewhat down at mouth. The flight cost was more than the 'full service' flights with BA I took last week EDI-LCY but its definately a budget offering in comparison.

It was my first time on the Q400 and it was a pleasant experience, although both aircradt where quite dirty and the window view was impaired.

A friend works for them so I hope they get it sorted out! Has this been on the cards for long?

Sandyb123



Member of the mile high club
User currently offline2008matt From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8837 times:

I don't know how flybe are in business at the ridiculous prices they charge. I wanted to fly from Aberdeen to Geneva last summer and they wanted to charge over £200 one way, whereas Easyjet to Luton and connecting to Geneva took 2 hours longer for just £70 one way, so how is two hours worth £130 difference?

[Edited 2013-01-25 23:16:41]


Keep calm and up your game!
User currently offlinesandyb123 From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2007, 1108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8445 times:
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Agreed. However on the outbound EDI-BHD there was about 30 pax whilst the U2 flight that leaves at the same time to BFS was full! Although it was quite last minute the U2 flight was more expensive.

I wonder how many of the U2 pax even knew about the BE flught!? Power of the brand I guess!

Sandyb123



Member of the mile high club
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7377 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8227 times:
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Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 3):
I wonder how many of the U2 pax even knew about the BE flught!? Power of the brand I guess!

Err....there are no BE flights operating ABZ-GVA non-stop. To travel on that route means routing ABZ-CDG-GVA on AF or ABZ-MAN/BHX-CDG-GVA with BE doing ABZ-MAN/BHX, MAN/BHX-GVA being AF or BE and the CDG-GVA on AF.


User currently offlineLuftyMatt From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 428 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7939 times:

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 1):
Was ok but the crew seemed somewhat down at mouth

Now you know why.

As the article says, rising fuel costs and the introduction of APD have to take a large share of the blame. Such a shame as I've always found Flybe a great airline with excellent customer service. I really hope they return to profitability soon.



chase the sun
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7845 times:
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Quoting david_itl (Reply 4):
Err....there are no BE flights operating ABZ-GVA non-stop. To travel on that route means routing ABZ-CDG-GVA on AF or ABZ-MAN/BHX-CDG-GVA with BE doing ABZ-MAN/BHX, MAN/BHX-GVA being AF or BE and the CDG-GVA on AF.

You could do Flybe all the way via the southern hub at Southampton !

That said their online timetable will normally send you via Paris and codeshare partners AF.

And you get no discount on the AF sectors !

[Edited 2013-01-26 11:20:07]

User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7356 times:

I wonder if the E175 was a good idea. The aircraft itself is good, but there were delivery delays due to financing questions (no smoke without fire IMO...) and I wonder about the wisdom of the order, particularly the size of it.

The Q400 is also a good aircraft and rumor has it that break even point can be achieved with a very low LF (the metrics in this equation are of course varied) but I think it would be cheaper to operate a half full DH4 than E75 for example. For the domestic and routes under 90 mins at least, I think it would be stupid to completely eliminate the DH4 in place of the E75. Any update on DH4 retirements? I assume this would be the 4 a/c mentioned in the article.

I used them for the first time last summer MAN-EDI, there were two flights 2 hours apart and my flight had 10 pax on it - and it was 630pm on a Friday which you would think would be one of the busiest flights of the week. I paid a very reasonable fare, so I doubt very much they made any money on that flight. In such markets Im not sure such frequency is required and consolidation would surely make sense.

Quoting bmibaby737 (Thread starter):
and today launched a new Birmingham-Lyon route to be operated daily by an Embraer 175.

Also launched by BMI Regional, great planning by someone.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineScottishDavie From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2011, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7290 times:

Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 5):
...I've always found Flybe a great airline with excellent customer service.

I'm pleased to hear that but it certainly doesn't reflect my own experience. I have found them to be so consistently unreliable that nowadays if there is an alternative to Flybe I'll use it and if there is no alternative I'll go by train or drive. Judging from the comments on Skytrax (yes, yes, I know) I'm by no means alone. I'm sorry for anybody who loses their job but if Flybe do go bust I certainly won't mourn their passing. The only thing that surprises me is that they've managed to last so long.


User currently offlineawthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6770 times:

Quoting ScottishDavie (Reply 8):
I'm sorry for anybody who loses their job but if Flybe do go bust I certainly won't mourn their passing. The only thing that surprises me is that they've managed to last so long.

I think that statement is rather uncalled for. If flybe, one of the last remaining independent British airlines with a decent scheduled network leaves the scene, whats left?
Also if they go, you sir can expect to start paying much more for your flights as competition will be much reduced.

I will offer my completely contrasting experience:
Over the years I have flown with Flybe hundreds of times out of Belfast City to virtually all of their UK destinations but most regularly Manchester, Birmingham and Gatwick. I can only recall very good service virtually throughout. By that I mean that they fulfilled what I expected when I booked, ie. got me to where I wanted to go quickly, at a good price, efficient check in, comfortable planes etc. What else do I need? From reading airliners.net forums I get the impression that many people expect too much from an airline. It is nothing more than a form of transport.

I virtually rely on Flybe in both my personal and working life and if they go, I will be at a serious disadvantage. Take them out of Belfast City, there's not much left.

The above said, unfortunately the reality is that the UK is going backwards from many standpoints. Having just returned from the far east, mainly Hong Kong, I can't help feel that the UK, and in particular Northern Ireland is a complete backwater now. Even the Philippines where I spent some time, once third (or fourth) world, is now booming. If things don't turn for the better soon, it will be time for me to pack up and move elsewhere.


User currently offlinestarrymarkb From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6716 times:

IIRC back when they were Jersey European I heard them described as a Maintenance Company with an Airline Hobby. Could it be their Maintenance arm keeping them afloat? It's interesting that the workshop operations are being split from the airline and I can see them stopping their own flights at some point which would hit the smaller airports (EXT,SOU,NQY) hard.

But for price reasons I don't use them. It's cheaper even as a single passenger to drive and park at BRS and fly EZY or even KLM then to fly BE from EXT. For example their BCN flight from EXT was on offer recently at £53.99 each way (usual is £59.99) - EZY start from £52 return including Admin Fee!


User currently offlineEuroWings From UK - England, joined Sep 2011, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6609 times:

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 10):
But for price reasons I don't use them. It's cheaper even as a single passenger to drive and park at BRS and fly EZY or even KLM then to fly BE from EXT. For example their BCN flight from EXT was on offer recently at £53.99 each way (usual is £59.99) - EZY start from £52 return including Admin Fee!

See £108 return for that distance seems entirely reasonable to me. £52 return won't be making EZY much money on a sector of that length and EZY can offer such loss leading fares because of their low cost base.

On the whole, I've had good experiences with BE. Yes, I think they could review some of their 'LCC practices' but I think they have realised that recently. Their fleet brings some variety to the skies as well!


User currently offlinecainanuk From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2002, 551 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6426 times:

If Flybe were to go bump, it would not just affect the BE employees... There are also the literally THOUSANDS of employees of handling agents throughout their network that would be affected... not to mention all the other ancilliary services (catering, cleaning etc etc...) that go along with it. The comment made from ScottishDavie is nothing short of selfish and ignorant and one from which I take massive offense.


Cainan Cornelius
User currently offlineLuftyMatt From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 428 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6278 times:

Quoting cainanuk (Reply 12):
The comment made from ScottishDavie is nothing short of selfish and ignorant and one from which I take massive offense.

You take massive offence because he wouldn't mourn them if they go bump?   Whilst I don't agree with what he said, there's certainly nothing offensive about what he's saying. It's his opinion and he's entitled to it.

Quoting ScottishDavie (Reply 8):
Judging from the comments on Skytrax (yes, yes, I know) I'm by no means alone

I'm sure Skytrax do have some reliable accounts on there, but my experience of Flybe is usually positive. An example is when Manchester closed due snow on Friday evening. I was supposed to be flying back from SOU. To cut a long story short, Flybe had to cancel the flight and couldn't book me on the morning MAN flight as it was full. So they offered me a flight to LBA and they would pay for my taxi to MAN, or said I could wait for one of the direct Sunday flights if I wished, or was entitled to a complete refund. I took the LBA option, and they paid for the taxi as well.
When you compare this to how some other low fares airlines would treat you (ie leave you abandoned to make your own way home) I thought this was very generous of FlyBe.



chase the sun
User currently offlineScottishDavie From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2011, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6095 times:

Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 13):
The comment made from ScottishDavie is nothing short of selfish and ignorant and one from which I take massive offense.

Well I'm really crying into my beer ..........  
I'll know never to express my opinion again.

[Edited 2013-01-27 01:25:42]

User currently offlineLuftyMatt From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 428 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5979 times:

Quoting ScottishDavie (Reply 14):

It wasn't me who said that  



chase the sun
User currently offlineScottishDavie From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2011, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5874 times:

Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 15):
It wasn't me who said that

Sorry Matt, of course it wasn't. A case of fat fingers on my part quoting from the wrong post! Thanks for your support even if we disagree on our view of Flybe.   


User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1832 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5826 times:
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And this is the company that is considering taking 43 A320 operated routes (from airports not currently served by FlyBE) from Aer Lingus if FR take them over?

User currently offlineScottishDavie From UK - Scotland, joined Feb 2011, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5765 times:

Quoting cainanuk (Reply 12):
The comment made from ScottishDavie is nothing short of selfish and ignorant and one from which I take massive offense.

Having managed to attribute the above quote to LuftyMatt by mistake, let me reply properly.

You can take as much offense (sic) at my post as you want but I have a perfect right to express my opinion whether you like it or not. I also take considerable exception to being described as "selfish and ignorant" because you happen to disagree with me.

I'm sure many people have had good experiences with Flybe, I have not. Some time ago, due to family circumstances I had to fly several times (at my own expense) between EDI and CWL, a route on which they have a monopoly. Out of three return flights over a period of about seven weeks only one leg of one journey was entirely problem free. The question was not "Will the flight be delayed?" but "Will the flight operate at all and, if so, how long will the delay be?" It was risky planning meetings or other commitments because you couldn't be confident you'd arrive anywhere near the stated time. I eventually switched to flying U2 to BRS, hiring a car and driving to Cardiff. Maybe I was exceptionally unlucky but from my perspective Flybe's performance was totally unacceptable and following that experience I will never use them again. How, exactly, does that make me "selfish and ignorant?"

The world doesn't owe Flybe a living. Their fares are not cheap, certainly not by the standards of U2 and FR, and unless they can provide a reliable service at a price which customers are willing to pay they don't deserve to be in business which is unfortunate for people who work for them or otherwise rely on them but a simple fact of business life.

[Edited 2013-01-27 05:15:14]

User currently offlineawthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5692 times:

ScottishDavie

I understand your viewpoint now that you have backed up your opinion with some examples of frustrations you have had with the airline. Those are certainly not pleasant experiences.

My challenge is that if one of the few remaining British scheduled airlines go to the wall, it will continue to get worse for us all. Britain (and Ireland) does need more than merely EZY, RYR, BAW, EIN, EXS, VIR, MON, TCX and TOM. We have lost BMI only months ago and I don't like the trend that is ensuing. Which will be next?

For me, Flybe kind of straddles the gap between the true low cost carriers and the full service airlines and had a useful place in the market.

Can I also comment on the gravity of this situation that we are discussing. The loss of BEE (and I hope it doesn't happen) and the trend that is taking place could ultimately lead to the closure of airports. Belfast which has two airports is already starting to look well over catered for and it would not take much more strain to lead to one having to capitulate. Currently Belfast City is a Flybe airport. Take out Flybe, and what's left virtually makes the airport unviable. I have been worried now about the future of Belfast's two airports for couple of years and if trends don't reverse, I'm afraid we're getting closer to a situation which could lead to one or other being closed. The hundreds (thousands?) of jobs affected here are not to be sneared at.

Perhaps someone who is familiar with the Scottish aviation scene, could echo a similar situation with certain Scottish airports which Flybe operate to. What will happen to the Public Service Obligation funded Scottish airports - I am thinking highlands and islands?

In the precarious state we are in, I will personally not be mourning the loss of any further airlines or aviation related jobs in this country.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5675 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 7):
I wonder if the E175 was a good idea. The aircraft itself is good, but there were delivery delays due to financing questions (no smoke without fire IMO...) and I wonder about the wisdom of the order, particularly the size of it.

The size was fanciful bordering ridiculous, even considering the bullish market at the time. Still, the aircraft is right for them now, but not for long. By the time they are receiving their last original 175s the E jet NG, C Series, MRJ and other types will be available, giving any airline operating them in competition with FlyBe a considerable advantage. This leaves FlyBe with a rapidly depreciating fleet and in no financial position to modernise it. It's a situation which could see them bleeding to death over time without a major investment boost.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 7):
Also launched by BMI Regional, great planning by someone.

Intentional by FlyBe - they have too great a focus on taking out competitors.

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 10):
IIRC back when they were Jersey European I heard them described as a Maintenance Company with an Airline Hobby. Could it be their Maintenance arm keeping them afloat?

It has in the past, but IIRC their latest results showed that taking a hit too.

Quoting awthompson (Reply 9):
I think that statement is rather uncalled for. If flybe, one of the last remaining independent British airlines with a decent scheduled network leaves the scene, whats left?

Well the irony is that it's because of FlyBe's aggressive competition and determination to blow the small fish out of the water that there would be no back up. Should they disappear there would be a vacuum, but it would be filled quicker than you might think. Most probably by a business related to the demise of FlyBe as we know it currently.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1243 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5621 times:

I have always said that FlyBE:s biggest mistakes are their Q400. There is no need for that machine in their fleet. They could have flown with the much lower trip costs of the ATR instead. For their network and their flighttimes they have nothing to gain from using the Q400. Especially when they own the Embraer 175.

The extra costs that a Q400 is compared to the ATR is not justifiable when the routes are as short as those Flybe in general operates.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 893 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5563 times:

Quoting awthompson (Reply 19):
Belfast which has two airports is already starting to look well over catered for and it would not take much more strain to lead to one having to capitulate. Currently Belfast City is a Flybe airport. Take out Flybe, and what's left virtually makes the airport unviable. I have been worried now about the future of Belfast's two airports for couple of years and if trends don't reverse, I'm afraid we're getting closer to a situation which could lead to one or other being closed.


Which other city - anywhere in the world - with a total of just 6,5 million passengers per year, can permit itself to have two commercial airports?


User currently offlineACdreamliner From UK - Scotland, joined May 2005, 519 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5453 times:

Quoting ScottishDavie (Reply 8):
Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 5):
...I've always found Flybe a great airline with excellent customer service.

I'm pleased to hear that but it certainly doesn't reflect my own experience. I have found them to be so consistently unreliable that nowadays if there is an alternative to Flybe I'll use it and if there is no alternative I'll go by train or drive. Judging from the comments on Skytrax (yes, yes, I know) I'm by no means alone. I'm sorry for anybody who loses their job but if Flybe do go bust I certainly won't mourn their passing. The only thing that surprises me is that they've managed to last so long.

Thus their nickname, flymaybe...

In my experience, 5 hour delay without an ground handling information and i'm 99% sure the flight i did from EDI to SOU in a DH4 was the flight that my tinnitus first started. Was sat in seat A in the row right next to the prop, my ear didn't pop (not suggesting for a second thats BE's fault) and guess that messed with th e sound waves, now I get a lovely ringing noise all day everyday in my left ear...

That said, they do serve a very good purpose and their ERJ's are great little aircraft. The crews on board have been on the whole very good and I wish them all the best to turn themselves around...



Where are you going?
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2995 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5399 times:
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From their press release it is clear they intend to (re)focus the business towards Europe and away from the taxed to death UK.

It quite clear the UK inter regional domestic market is hemorrhaging money.

What options do they have ?

More focus on Flybe Nordic and the sub-contract operations for Finnair.

Something similar with AF as part of that carriers impending changes to regional services ?

More IT contract work ?

More UK-EU international routes ?

With regards the redundancies are the TUPE protections of former BAcon staff now time served and can they begin to streamline these costs out of the business perhaps ?

What ever i wouldn't wish redundancy on anyone and most certainly not through bankruptcy.

Do Flybe have to up their game yes - Have they the commitment i would think so.

Now is a waiting game.


25 CRJ900 : They have around 50 x Q400 in their fleet, so it can't be that bad either. They topped up their original order several times, IIRC. The Q400 has 10 m
26 anstar : To be honest when you put them all together that is alot of airlines competing for the business!
27 sandyb123 : I think most of these flights are currently operated by RE on the ATR72. With the exception of Highlands and Islands they have competition on most of
28 Post contains images YVRLTN : Im not sure about that, remember a lot of the aircraft they were replacing were 146's, so while they were slow for an RJ I think the Q400 is certainl
29 awthompson : Well, that list covers at least three different categories with not many in each category. Although they all kind of dabble nowadays in each of the t
30 EagleBoy : Aer Lingus and Aer Lingus Regional are 2 separate operations. FR are not trying to takeover EIR. And EIR operate less than 20 routes for EI. Flybe me
31 european742 : Having been associated with Flybe for many years they are very unreliable, the cabin crew are flawless, I have never had a bad on board expreience (wh
32 Post contains images Pe@rson : Saw the following this morning on BE's website and it made me chuckle. Note that its CWL-CDG from £15.99 one-way must mean £51.99 given that was the
33 Post contains images bluesky73 : Flybe were doing so well a few years back and were an example of how to manage a regional airline efficiently. They showed BA how it can be done. Unfo
34 sandyb123 : It seems like this is an issue. A lot of competition on many routes aswell. Is aircraft utilisation an issue? I have always noted at EDI (and my rece
35 skipness1E : 1) Large and famously lethargic and top heavy former flag carrier cannot make money on regional flying 2) Sells out to smaller and nimble competitor
36 bluesky73 : Years ago I thought it was a long term plan to let FLYBE grow a profitable regional airline (as they were doing so well) then acquire and brand BA. I
37 TC957 : I fly SOU - MAN a couple of times a year and oddly when it's a DH4 the flights is heavily booked - compleatly full on my last return - and when it's a
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