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Frontier Launching DEN-CVG  
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24997 posts, RR: 85
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5958 times:
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I posted this in the Frontier thread, but it''s an interesting move, so here goes - DEN-CVG 6 x weekly A320:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...stop-between-denver-181600342.html

"Frontier Announces Nonstop Service Between Denver and Cincinnati Beginning May 16"

Consolidating southern Ohio at one airport.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-28 10:54:06]


aeternum nauta
66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5894 times:

I hope this sticks. DL usually takes this very personally.

User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5821 times:

Why not. One of the routes will eventually work.

User currently offlineazstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5832 times:

I suspect DL still considers CVG it's own turf and will squash F9 like they recently did in MCI & MSP.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24997 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5817 times:
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Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 1):
DL usually takes this very personally.

As on the Frontier thread that was my immediate concern. But - so far - Delta has not responded to TTN-ATL or TTN-DTW.

So given all the good things Republic has done for Delta recently, I wonder if there is a new relationship?

Fingers crossed, anyway.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5745 times:

I just looked at the times. Leaving Denver at 6:59 pm and landing at CVG at 11:35 pm and then leaving CVG at 6:15 am and landing in Denver 7:15 am. For an entry into a hub, this looks pretty gentle. I wonder who is handling ground services.

User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5704 times:

Could this be to position an aircraft for the Apple Vacation Flying, and or to swap aircraft that are flying the Apple Vacation Flying.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineocracoke From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5705 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 5):
For an entry into a hub, this looks pretty gentle. I wonder who is handling ground services.

Currently, DL does. If Frontier still plans on flying the CVG-CUN/PUJ route, then I imagine that DL will continue, as that plane will have to clear customs in CVG, and the only access to Customs are at the DL gates.

I don't think it will be cost effective for DL to handle the international flights, and another contract (Eagle?) to handle the daily domestic flight.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7031 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5666 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
So given all the good things Republic has done for Delta recently, I wonder if there is a new relationship?

Highly doubtful

Quoting EricR (Reply 2):
Why not. One of the routes will eventually work.

Keep switching airports, pissing off customers, spending money on station setup, and starting from scratch.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 6):

Could this be to position an aircraft for the Apple Vacation Flying

Probably. Not sure why their scheduling requires these things. You don't see Allegiant ferrying aircraft to fly their infrequent routes.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24997 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5639 times:
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Quoting luv2fly (Reply 6):
Could this be to position an aircraft for the Apple Vacation Flying, and or to swap aircraft that are flying the Apple Vacation Flying.

It may help with that, but both CVG-CUN (Saturday) and PUJ (Sunday) are only 1 x weekly,

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
Highly doubtful

Something has changed.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5636 times:

Another good choice for F9. And we know who flies to SDF and not CVG.

I landed in CVG twice; once on a TWA BCN-JFK-CVG-BNA flight and once on a DL flight MCO-CVG-SEA flight which actually aborted its takeoff 1/2 to 3/4 of the way down the runway. That ride and sudden stop was enough thrill for a lifetime. It would have certainly cost $10 in a carnival.

Is CVG the first of the proposed new eight cities or does do the recent TTN announcements count toward the eight?



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24997 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5622 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 10):
Is CVG the first of the proposed new eight cities or does do the recent TTN announcements count toward the eight?

I don't think it will be "eight cities," Gent.

There are eight cities (nine if you count MSO) bidding for service this summer, but I doubt they'll all get a guernsey.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3716 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5579 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 10):
And we know who flies to SDF and not CVG.

Don't forget you-know-who's considerable operations in IND, DAY, and CMH.  
Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
You don't see Allegiant ferrying aircraft to fly their infrequent routes.

You can't compare G4 scheduling to F9's. G4's business model bases crews at the vacation destination and makes them go to the small city and back in the same day. It works for a pure vacation airline like G4, but can't be adapted to an airline like F9.

Anyway, I'm glad to see CVG getting their first LCC in years. Hopefully, this is the first of many and locals will embrace F9 if DL uses "NW heartland strategy" tactics.

[Edited 2013-01-28 11:46:42]


I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently onlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1599 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5530 times:
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Quoting azstar (Reply 3):
I suspect DL still considers CVG it's own turf and will squash F9 like they recently did in MCI & MSP.

Hmmm..really??? Cuz DL hasnt been able to keep F9 out of DTW, MSP, SLC or ATL. MSP-MCI is a horrible example because neither was a F9 hub. Yes, I know sure MCI was a F9 hub, sure it was.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5493 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 5):
Leaving Denver at 6:59 pm and landing at CVG at 11:35 pm and then leaving CVG at 6:15 am and landing in Denver 7:15 am.


Because DEN-CVG is a 6x weekly service If F9 were to initiate TTN-CVG and adjust the 6:15 A.M. departure out of CVG it would potentially give TTN a second connection to DEN a little more south of MDW. Keeping in mind a direct TTN-DEN may happen at some point.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5343 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5459 times:

This is probably "free" a/c time -- using a plane 6x a week that would otherwise spend the night in DEN -- so it isn't really a high-cost move by F9. Whether the times and freq will work, of course, is the question...

As mentioned by several, it will be very interesting to see what DL's reaction is.

bb


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5416 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 10):
And we know who flies to SDF and not CVG.
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 12):
Don't forget you-know-who's considerable operations in IND, DAY, and CMH.

I was thinking 5X...Just kidding.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24997 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5417 times:
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Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 13):
Hmmm..really??? Cuz DL hasnt been able to keep F9 out of DTW, MSP, SLC or ATL. MSP-MCI is a horrible example because neither was a F9 hub. Yes, I know sure MCI was a F9 hub, sure it was.

That was precisely the problem - Delta did not regard MCI as a Frontier hub.

The rule of thumb (Delta/Frontier) has been that Delta doesn't react (or not much) if Frontier starts a route from its hub - DEN.

It is the non-hub routes (LAX-MSP, MEM-MCO/LAS and MCI-MSP) that Delta goes nuclear about - if Delta already flies it. .

The open question is TTN, which clearly isn't yet a hub. But - Delta doesn't fly TTN-ATL or TTN-DTW.

So far, Delta has not responded. This is in itself unusual, because normally the reratliation happens within about a week. It may yet respond, of course - who knows?

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-28 12:24:59]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7031 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5360 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 17):
The rule of thumb (Delta/Frontier) has been that Delta doesn't react (or not much) if Frontier starts a route from its hub - DEN.

They (NW) retaliated against DEN-DTW by adding DEN-IND/MKE. DEN-MEM was also retaliated against with JFK-LAX/JFK/IND. So, F9 has never been free to add DL/NW hubs from DEN without reaction...or at least there is no evidence to support that comment.

Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
Highly doubtful

Something has changed.
Quoting mariner (Reply 17):
So far, Delta has not responded. This is in itself unusual, because normally the reratliation happens within about a week. It may yet respond, of course - who knows?

I think DL is not quite sure how to deal with TTN. CVG is hard to say. If it were MEM I'd be more certain DL would let it go, but CVG is not really shrinking right now. DL just retaliated for RDU-LAX on AA by adding BNA-LAX. DL is not going soft. I think it has reached a point where DL will do something. Not sure what...


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24997 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5348 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 18):
They (NW) retaliated against DEN-DTW by adding DEN-IND/MKE. DEN-MEM was also retaliated against with JFK-LAX/JFK/IND. So, F9 has never been free to add DL/NW hubs from DEN without reaction...or at least there is no evidence to support that comment.

MSP. SLC. ATL.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5331 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 5):
I just looked at the times. Leaving Denver at 6:59 pm and landing at CVG at 11:35 pm and then leaving CVG at 6:15 am and landing in Denver 7:15 am. For an entry into a hub, this looks pretty gentle. I wonder who is handling ground services.

I just posted this as a new thread before I saw this one. This is exciting news for Cincinnati. I'm sure we'll have team reporting by our TV stations here tonight.

With the addition of F9, we now have three daily flights to DEN  

This is a short layover for the crew...I'm sure they're not going to like this one.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3344 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5328 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
As on the Frontier thread that was my immediate concern. But - so far - Delta has not responded to TTN-ATL or TTN-DTW.

Its kind of tough for delta to respond when they dont serve the airport!


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24997 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5303 times:
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Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 21):
Its kind of tough for delta to respond when they dont serve the airport!

Delta could easily start TTN - its done it before. It didn't last, but it was flown.

Delta Starting TTN -BOS/-ATL In Dec! (by Lrgt Sep 5 2006 in Civil Aviation)

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5214 times:

Quoting seatback (Reply 20):
This is a short layover for the crew...I'm sure they're not going to like this one.

Wouldn't this be a long layover? They won't fly out after just under 7 hours on the ground will they? I am kind of assuming that every flight crew will spend the night and next day unless there is some rotation that can be done for the Apple flight.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24997 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5123 times:
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This is interesting - comparative fares. DAY saw an increase in pax while CVG saw a decline:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnat...raffic-declines-at-cincinnati.html

The average air fare at Cincinnati airport was $535, compared with $378 at the Dayton airport and $377 at the Columbus airport, according to second quarter figures from the U.S. Department of Transportation."

A little low-fare stimulation in the works at CVG?

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-28 13:37:17]


aeternum nauta
25 GentFromAlaska : Because F9 remains a subsidiary of RJET would in my mind be a retaliation against Bryan Bedford. Does DL really want to pick that fight. If F9 were a
26 mariner : Frontier was a subsidiary of Republic when it announced MCI-MSP - and Delta went nuclear. Whether they still want that fight is the unknown. mariner
27 seatback : I fly this route weekly. As a person traveling on business and as a slave to my Delta miles, I won't switch to F9. I'm easily upgraded on the CRJ900 w
28 Post contains images PHX787 : YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! As you can imagine, any new service into my hometown airport is great news! Looks like F9 was the result of a s***load of lobbyin
29 airlinewatcher1 : Great news!!! I've been waiting for this for a while! DL recently downgraded their CVG-DEN route from mainline to a CRJ, so to me that shows it's not
30 B4REAL : Additionally, I think the masses will do what you do. I think CVG fliers are notoriously picky, I'm really not sure they've ever been happy. With the
31 flyguy89 : Finally! Hard to say with any certainty how the route will do, but Cincinnati has been a low-fare starved market for quite some time, so I hope it doe
32 Post contains images PHX787 : What am I then? I'll probably fly F9 on my next flight back to my hometown just to see something different for once. Any word on what a/c is going to
33 Post contains images mariner : Yes. A320. "“We are excited to bring our low fares to residents in the Cincinnati area,” said Daniel Shurz, Frontier’s senior vice president, c
34 Post contains images PHX787 : Well I'm sold. F9 from AZA-DEN-CVG :D
35 B4REAL : We do need to see fare positioning response... If only CVG-DEN is priced the same, DL wins. If many markets Westbound are much less expensive, F9 win
36 F9fan : This is very similar to what F9 used to do at CAK, send a flight in really late and just have it RON. As for retaliation from DL, I'm surprised they
37 cosyr : How long until F9 tries another mini hub? This one might be justified, if DL doesn't kill them.
38 Kcrwflyer : Remember, Delta only defends things they want. Can we at least agree that this passes the eye test? I can't imagine the pieces aren't in place for th
39 Post contains images SurfandSnow : Wow, CVG has finally gotten real LCC service! This should substantially bring down fares to key Western destinations like DEN, LAS, LAX, PHX, SAN, SEA
40 BDL757 : What are all the good things Republic has done for DL? What do you think has changed?
41 mariner : (i) Giving Delta the use of the Republic/Frontier LGA slots at MKE. (ii) Seriously downsizing MKE, clearing the way for Delta. (iii) Seriously downsi
42 enilria : Those were all pre-2001. How do you even remember what happened then when you forgot about the response on DTW and MEM much more recently? Less easil
43 Cubsrule : But if it's a fare response we don't see, who cares? DL will match. We know that, but it has nothing to do with anything specific to F9 or the route.
44 PHLBOS : If memory serves, DL (via a Connection carrier, OH IIRC) entered TTN with routes (I believe they also flew TTN-ATL as well) that nobody was flying at
45 LHCVG : I'm interested to see whether UA or DL considers this a bigger threat. We've all been talking about this as F9 poaching DL at CVG, but I think UA's re
46 flyguy89 : Well UA only operates 1 daily flight on a CRJ-700, so DL and UA pretty much have identical capacity on the route and fares are still high (north of $
47 delta2ual : I wish DL and F9 would work together! F9 could open a mini hub in CVG; they could grow in the east; people in CVG would still have a "hub" of sorts; D
48 LHCVG : I've seen it fluctuate up to 3x a day in the past, and sometimes they throw in an ERJ as one of the segments, though I can't recall the specific date
49 mariner : Because I don't mention something does not mean that it is forgotten. I thought you would understand that by now. ATL, MSP and SLC were Delta pure, D
50 ScottB : The overnight is far too short to be a legal layover for crew rest. Is it a "stand-up" layover with the crew on duty all night? I can't imagine that
51 B727FA : Why does this thinking persist? The "hub/focus city" what ever you want to call it, CVG is profitable now and DL doesn't throw money/profit away. Don
52 seatback : Agreed. But as a note, my company pays my travel, not me personally. If I had to be mindful of a travel budget, or paying for it myself, I'd be force
53 mariner : But it isn't designed for folk like you. It isn't attempting to be Delta or United. The laser focus by the new CEO on leisure pax as the primary mark
54 LHCVG : I could be wrong, but I thought I saw something last week about them having a contract with a casino or some such. Yup. Same problem as VX's elite st
55 Post contains links mariner : That's a Republic contract for 10 x E190's - it doesn't involve Frontier. The E190's are still in Frontier livery, though, which is causing some conf
56 LHCVG : I stand corrected.
57 cornutt : I haven't been following the situation closely, but that's what I've heard... routes between HSV and the Northeast U.S./Canada where I used to be abl
58 PHLBOS : Facilities & gate leases made available, yes. OTOH, an airline starting identical service at an airport that they're not currently serving with t
59 PHX787 : Seasonal winter. Well if its a good product ill do it F9, but if its out of the country or to the east coast (all while implying that I'm originating
60 enilria : Huh? I don't think you understand the concept of a fare response. Delta could, for example, lower prices to dirt in DEN to a bunch of cities where DL
61 dbo861 : Non-stops? The number of non-stops DL still offers from CVG dwindles each day. Also, F9 only has 6 weekly flights to fill, and offers many more conne
62 FWA2500 : The contract is up on C in 2015, but until then it has to be maintained in "flight ready" condition, or so we were told. It iss a big waste of money
63 mariner : There is a school of thought that says Delta sees Frontier at TTN as at least a limiting factor to Spirit's ACY-ATL/ACY-DTW I don't know if I agree w
64 GentFromAlaska : I would think if there were any sort of retaliation it would be equipment matching by DL or UA to match the seats on the route to as close to possible
65 slcdeltarumd11 : Honestly if there was anywhere that needs a LCC its CVG. That market desperately needs a last minute option at affordable prices. If frontier cant mak
66 PHLBOS : FYI, you're quoting cornutt; not me.
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