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IAG Plans To Replace European Flts With Vueling  
User currently onlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19227 posts, RR: 52
Posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14224 times:

"Vueling is reportedly set to take over many of the European flights operated by British Airways and Iberia.

International Airlines Group (IAG), which was formed through the merger of British Airways and Iberia in 2011, plans to cut costs by using Vueling for short-haul services in Europe, sources told the Financial Times.

IAG owns a 46% stake in Vueling via Iberia and in November (Xetra: A0Z24E - news) made a bid to buy the remaining shares of the company as it grows profitably."

Some more here: http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/iag...ce-european-flights-100100841.html

Given BA and IB both typically lose money on their short-haul flights, yet need the feed they provide, utilising a lower-cost platform may - depending upon how it's used - be a good way to remedy the financial ill-performance. But, we must wait to see what materialises, including the degree of use.

[Edited 2013-01-29 11:10:59]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDolphinAir747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14175 times:

It seems like they're walking in LH and AF's footsteps...

User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3994 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13328 times:
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Yahoo's report is a bit short on crucial details.

Basically, Vueling would be to IAG what Germanwings is to Lufthansa, a low-cost carrier operating short-haul point-to-point flights. BA and IB would continue to operate European flights to/from LHR and MAD.

There are no concrete plans at this time, however, so it may also be a ploy to force Spanish unions to grant the concessions IAG has requested by the end of the month.

[Edited 2013-01-29 14:35:35]


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinebaexecutive From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13214 times:

I can see Vueling operating all LGW short haul services for BA

User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12997 times:

They're following the jetstar model.

BA stuffed up with GO by allowing it on key routes where BA was strong. GO ended up eroding BA's own
flights. The key with Jetstar is its presence on key Qantas routes is controlled. On routes where QF's higher cost base
makes life tougher, then jetstar is deployed. For example, flights to hobart or Domestic New Zealand flights.
You could easily see service to some Secondary european cities like say GOT being ideal for this model. As long as business pax could still access a lounge, and it allowed easy connections to the long haul network, a great deal of the short haul passengers would be happy with the LCC product.


User currently offlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12897 times:

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 3):
I can see Vueling operating all LGW short haul services for BA

SNAP! That was my first thought too, but LHR stays BA short haul. As for IB I think there will be a drip feeding of routes to Vueling just leaving the profitable one's. However this must be dependant on IAG gaining control of Vueling, but will the regulators allow this and with or without conditions? Afterall this will make IAG quite poweful in the Spanish outbound market.


User currently offlineThomas_Jaeger From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 2388 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12368 times:

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 5):
SNAP! That was my first thought too, but LHR stays BA short haul. As for IB I think there will be a drip feeding of routes to Vueling just leaving the profitable one's. However this must be dependant on IAG gaining control of Vueling, but will the regulators allow this and with or without conditions? Afterall this will make IAG quite poweful in the Spanish outbound market.

Maybe that means Iberia Express and Vueling being merged as previously denied by IAG. There are very few routes still served by Iberia not serving the Madrid hub. Iberia's short-haul fleet now is 19 A319s, 15 A320s, 18 A321s, Iberia Express already has 19 A320s, Vueling 2 A319s and 53 A320s. So the I2/VY short-haul fleet is already larger than Iberia.

Iberia Express currently operates to ALC, AMS, CPH, DUB, DUS, FRA, FUE, XRY, ACE, LPA, AGP, PMI, SPC, SCQ, SVQ, TFN, TFS and VGO.

With the exception of LPA-DKR, LPA-NKC, TFN-ORY and TFS-ORY there are no Iberia flights left that do not operate from/to MAD. Obviously Air Nostrum operates other routes but they are all franchise operations from what I know, so not really Iberia's problem. All they can cut is these four routes or cancel routes from Madrid (altogether other by moving them to I2/VY).



Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
User currently online1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1000 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10471 times:
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Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):
Given BA and IB both typically lose money on their short-haul flights

Do BA lose money on short-haul these days ?

I think LHR is profitable. Not sure about LGW.

[Edited 2013-01-30 00:33:39]

User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10103 times:

This story originated in the Financial Times and was accompanied by a story about the negotiations with Iberia's unions in advance of the deadline of this week. I'm pretty confident the story was placed in the Financial Times by IAG which is obviously keeping its options open depending on how negotiations conclude this week. IAG has been pretty bullish that 31 January is a hard deadline.

Vueling is not going to take over BA short-haul at LHR, either under its own brand or the BA brand. And I think by far the preferred option is for LGW short-haul to remain BA operated under the BA brand. The brand profile of BA in the South East is very strong and there is also the profile of the Executive Club. Vueling operating BA flights under the BA brand is likely to be resisted by BA pilots.

It does seem that progress has been made on costs at LGW - IAG claim BA LGW costs are now comparable to LCCs.

[Edited 2013-01-30 01:15:43]

[Edited 2013-01-30 01:24:58]

User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10079 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 7):
I think LHR is profitable. Not sure about LGW.

Both LGW and LHR short-haul lose money on a standalone basis (but there is of course the perennial question of how you allocated revenue for connecting flights between long-haul and short-haul).


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10000 times:

Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 6):
There are very few routes still served by Iberia not serving the Madrid hub. Iberia's short-haul fleet now is 19 A319s, 15 A320s, 18 A321s, Iberia Express already has 19 A320s, Vueling 2 A319s and 53 A320s. So the I2/VY short-haul fleet is already larger than Iberia.

Correct. IB is already effectively performing all non-MAD flying through VY (and regional franchise Air Nostrum). It makes sense to apply this model at an IAG level too. BA might discover that it can be profitable to fly short-haul from other UK airports than LHR, under the VY model. VY is successful, profitable and growing, a rare thing these days in EU short-haul.
The remaining question is what happens to IB Express, which was supposed to take over MAD short-haul but is blocked by the courts and ongoing labor conflicts.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 2):
it may also be a ploy to force Spanish unions to grant the concessions IAG has requested by the end of the month.

This is definitely being used as a means to exert pressure against the unions, but I think it is more than a ploy as there is a realistic possibility for it to happen.


User currently onlinenuckleuz From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9934 times:

Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 6):
beria Express currently operates to ALC, AMS, CPH, DUB, DUS, FRA, FUE, XRY, ACE, LPA, AGP, PMI, SPC, SCQ, SVQ, TFN, TFS and VGO.

They dropped AMS a couple of weeks ago.


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1737 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9447 times:

I suppose BA could set up bases in cities like MAN and GLA using VY performing O&D flights on behalf of BA using a low cost model. It could also allow connections to BA mainline.

Problem is that MAN especially is oversaturated with LCCs at the moment so whether they could make it work.. who knows.



Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319-BA), OSL-LHR (319-BA), LHR-CPH (320-BA), VXO-BMA (S20-TF), ARN-CPH (738-SK), CPH-LHR (320-BA)
User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9354 times:

I wonder how they're going to brand this (especially in the UK) as Vueling is a brand that has no penetration whatsoever in the UK and they do have a lot of names and possible names "in the locker" that they could pick from:

IB Express
BA Express
BMI
BA Vueling


or how about some from the ark

BEA
Bcal

:D


User currently online1400mph From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2013, 1000 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9219 times:
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Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 9):
Both LGW and LHR short-haul lose money on a standalone basis (but there is of course the perennial question of how you allocated revenue for connecting flights between long-haul and short-haul).

Yes. If the airline as a whole is operating in the black and when people transfer from a relatively cheap short-haul seat to a £5000 long-haul Club World seat (that would otherwise be empty)........you cannot just write-off the incurred revenue in a standalone format scenario.

If you're losing 500M a year on short-haul and making 400M a year on long-haul obviously that's no good either......

The best way is to look at an airline like EK.....long-haul supports long-haul...the airline is overall profitable but all that transfer traffic has to get to DXB 'to transfer' so there is no difference to short-haul supporting long-haul.

It's all just a means to an end.


User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3822 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9152 times:

So on some European routes I get to fly with Vueling instead of BA or Iberia in the future?

AWESOME!!

(IMO Vueling is so much better than IB and a little better than BA from a passenger's point of view)

Soren   



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlinebongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3584 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9079 times:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 14):
Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 9):
Both LGW and LHR short-haul lose money on a standalone basis (but there is of course the perennial question of how you allocated revenue for connecting flights between long-haul and short-haul).

It has to be looked at as an overall package, if BA shorthaul was a loss maker it would have been closed down long ago.


User currently onlineKaiTak747 From Switzerland, joined Aug 2012, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9029 times:

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 3):
I can see Vueling operating all LGW short haul services for BA

I could see BA doing this, as their 737-400s are reaching the end of their lives (I think the eldest frames are over 20 years old) and will need replacing. BA won't want to buy new aircraft for an unprofitable base.

My opinion is that BA will ditch their Gatwick short-haul endeavour altogether. They have to compete with Easyjet and other airlines which dominate Gatwick. On a couple of flights out of LGW last year I found BA was actually cheaper than EZ, and when you think that BA has much higher costs and have lower density seating (as well as a free checked bag and snack) it shows that BA must have similar yields to low cost airlines.

I don't think then that Vueling would have any chance of standing up to EZ at their Gatwick fortress hub, especially because they both offer very similar products (i.e. at least BA Gatwick was full service). On another thread it says that very few airlines are making money short haul, so why increase capacity?


User currently onlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 799 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8871 times:

If they wanted to become big in the UK I think Vueling would need to change their name. No English speaker really knows how to pronounce it, do they?

I recall TUI had to change their name in the UK for the same reason.


User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 971 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8838 times:

What is problematic about using VY all over the place is that they're a pain to fly, literally. I've never felt so cramped in an aisle seat in my life. You Europeans are getting much tougher than we Americans when it comes to flying; the idea of paying for EVERYTHING on board and being uncomfortable for hours on end is too much for me to bear. I would rather pay an extra 50 Euros and fly a carrier like U2 or HV than fly VY. Still, the 45 Euro fares are awfully tempting...I suppose price gets most travelers every time.

User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8701 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 4):
BA stuffed up with GO by allowing it on key routes where BA was strong. GO ended up eroding BA's own
flights.

Not strictly true because Go operated from STN. The London + SE area is so spread out that STN and LHR both serve different markets. Yes, there would be some dilution of traffic but not enough to worry BA at LHR.


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 2500 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7979 times:

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 18):
If they wanted to become big in the UK I think Vueling would need to change their name. No English speaker really knows how to pronounce it, do they?

I have to disagree. The brand Vueling is well known in Europe and it is associated with a cool and young airline. Their present operation in the UK is limited to a handful of routes. If they do expand, I think they will be successful there. Their name is catchy and it has a Spanish element (Vuelo) and an English one (ing)... Which represet very well the Spanish English combination of IAG.

I can see BA using Vueling in some of the LGW routes especially the ones to Spain and some other holiday destinations (except may be Tunis, Algiers, Tirana, Jersey, Edinburgh and Glasgow). BA will obviously put their codes on VY flights. They could even expand from GLA and EDI but in a limited scale.

The idea is not bad IMHO.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7891 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 19):
What is problematic about using VY all over the place is that they're a pain to fly, literally. I've never felt so cramped in an aisle seat in my life.
Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 19):
I would rather pay an extra 50 Euros and fly a carrier like U2 or HV than fly VY.

Actually, I feel the same pain in VY and U2: both are at the very limit of human (or, at least, my) endurance. And they both seat 180 people in their A320s, although in a different configuration. I even find FR's 738s slightly less painful.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7448 times:

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 3):
I can see Vueling operating all LGW short haul services for BA

This would prove very costly in terms of crew expenses. Effectively VY flight and cabin crew operating these services would be living semi-permanently away from home staying in hotels and dining on company expences. These additional costs would likely far outweigh any other cost savings.

When IAG was formed the first two changes were:

1. All IB flights between BCN and LHR were transferred to BA because IB did not have a hub at either BCN or LHR. Note here that VY does not have an LGW hub.

2. The BA LHR-MAD-LHR overnight flight was transferred to IB and the IB MAD-LHR-MAD overnight flight was transferred to BA. This was to save the significant hotel / subsistence costs of crew overnighting away from their home hub.

It is certainly possible that BA flights between LGW and AGP would be transferred to VY. However I really cannot see the likes of routes such as LGW to JER or LGW to FCO being operated by VY. What I can see is IAG getting VY to operate new flights to LGW from several Spanish leisure destinations in addition to the flights they currently operate between BCN and LGW. Currently the only BA flights between LGW and Spain are those to AGP and IB does not operate into LGW.

I suppose it is possible in the medium term that a VY hub with locally employed flight and cabin crew could be established at LGW. But have not BA had a "Go" at doing that before at an airport further from LHR than LGW and then suffered the consequences to their Main Line Heathrow business?


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 894 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7182 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):
This would prove very costly in terms of crew expenses. Effectively VY flight and cabin crew operating these services would be living semi-permanently away from home staying in hotels and dining on company expences. These additional costs would likely far outweigh any other cost savings.

This is highly unlikely.

We are talking IAG here, so these would be G- registered Vueling aircraft with UK based crews.


25 Post contains links LHRFlyer : As I say it's no co-incidence the story appeared this week... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...h-while-offering-trade-off-1-.html
26 fcogafa : I don't think it would be regarded as catchy by Brits, just confusing as it means nothing to them. There is no English equivalent to 'Vue' being pron
27 VV701 : As I originally said: But I qualified this possibility. Do you think that having set up Go Fly to operate out of STN and then found how it adversley
28 SKAirbus : Well surely, and this is me being logical, if BA get rid of the SH operation at LGW and instead base Vueling there, wouldn't it be easier to transfer
29 bwaflyer : They could still be operated on the Spanish register with UK based crews (easyjet and Ryanair manage to operate all over Europe with G- and EI- regis
30 UALWN : I didn't write that quote above.
31 bluesky73 : You want a name that is catchy and Europeans find easy to pronounce. To me Vueling makes me think of fuelling (petrol related). Plus another bland bra
32 Post contains images adriaticflight : From a business perspective i think BA would make a huge mistake by doing too much with Vueling. I agree with several of the comments from posters tha
33 Viscount724 : This gives me the opportunity to ask a question I've been curious about. What is the correct pronunciation of "Vueling"? is it "View-ling" or "Vway-l
34 hotplane : All pilots pronounce it ' Welling '
35 UALWN : Which is the correct Spanish pronunciation. "Vueling" may not be a real Spanish word, but the Spanish pronunciation rules dictate that it should be p
36 tullamarine : My guess is that the UK based planes would continue to be branded as BA but there would be a little sign near the front door that would say "Operated
37 QANTASvJet : If I was Willie Walsh I would definitely see Vueling as the future of the intra-European operations. I would tll BA and IB that they are welcome to op
38 Post contains links LHRFlyer : Talks between Iberia and the unions have broken down according to Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...fter-airline-s-job-talks-fail.html
39 Post contains links PDPsol : I fail to see all this interest in branding? Do customers in the UK care whether the flight is operated by a carrier called 'Vueling' or 'BA' or some
40 AIR MALTA : Exactly... I still think that shorthaul at LHR will still be BA. LGW might be another story. VY operated flights with BA code could end up stealing s
41 Post contains images VV701 : I recall the reaction of the British media and public to the re-branding of BA in June 1997 with the launch of what was variously called "BA World Im
42 AIR MALTA : So how is AY managing cost reductions if they have successfully transferred some of the operations to BE? We are not talking about the whole LGW rout
43 PDPsol : Why not simply say all these VY flights are BA Code shares, and 'brand' them as BA, but operate them with VY crew and assets? The passenger is comple
44 Viscount724 : There's a big difference beween products, like cars and food/beverages, and services like airlines. Airline service, especially in shorthaul markets
45 r2rho : Don't forget that while VY may be unknown in the UK, it is becoming increasingly well know throughout Europe, not just Spain. They have bases in AMS,
46 VV701 : What is this big difference? Sure "British Airways" is very different to "Ford" but "Ford" is also very different to "Coca-Cola". However any differe
47 PDPsol : Look, no one is arguing "brands do not matter", but the issue here has nothing to do with that, we're not talking rocket science here... Very simple:
48 VV701 : No. As I have already stated EU Comsumer Protection Law requires that the operator of any flight is clearly stated during the booking process and on
49 PDPsol : Hate to break it to you, but only ANET members have any clue what "Capacity Purchase Agreements", "Code-shares", and "operators" are. Everyone else i
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