They don't have a operating certificate as far as I am aware. They have until Feb. 25th to start operations or else their DOT authority is revoked-considering the DOT has already given them an extension to start I don't think they will allow any further extensions, so CP being dead would be no surprise.
sunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1997 posts, RR: 9 Reply 3, posted (10 months 1 week ago) and read 23878 times:
Quoting bohica (Reply 2): BTW did CPA even have their AOC? I thought there was something that was holding up the AOC or am I thinking of something else? I know there has been several delays in CPA's startup.
I believe that they had the DOT blessing, but the FAA was the hold up in getting ops going.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 23456 posts, RR: 50 Reply 4, posted (10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 23468 times:
For years now they have been talking about launching private prospectus to generate the needed funding prior to start up. Looking back at old threads they even once hoped to have $32mil in place by October 2010 !
As of September 2012 they still seem to have been at square one, just having retained another NYC firm to walk around with the tin can trying to sell shares.
So besides Ted Vallas hawking his condo as collateral, and some locals throwing some trust fund money in, without the real dough in the bank there is no chance of flying.
In the mean time they took delivery on one E170 for PR sake that is burning a ~$175,000 monthly hole to cover lease rates and insurance.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
rduco From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 28 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 22640 times:
how much $$ should someone have to start an airline (regional). I remember someone about 10yrs ago that tried to start a regional carrier out or SRQ (think it was called FLair). they did start flying for a short time but I believe the carrier ran out of $$. Just curious, how much one should have to go from nothing to flying?
dxBrian From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 132 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 22326 times:
There are so many variables that it is hard to give a good answer. A large part of the costs is having enough money on hand to operate your proposed schedule for 90 days without any revenue. Shorter routes will have less fuel cost for a given airplane. Smaller airplanes use less fuel for a given route and the landing fees are also less. A low number of flights means you burn less fuel. Then you need to consider the monthly cost of the airplane? Some aircraft may have low acquisition cost but the parts may be expensive. How much flying are you going to do? More flights means more crews means higher costs. Are you going to do power by the hour? Are you going to operate under supplemental rules or domestic rules? Are you going to have your own maintenance or contract maintenance? Where is your headquarters- that will affect costs.
Morris Air was a pretty unique operation. Sierra Pacific and Ryan International operated the airplanes on routes chosen by Morris. Morris also provided the airplanes. The crews were hired with the understanding that if the venture worked they would ultimately work for Morris. So when they started to pursue their certificate, they already had all the manuals and procedures laid out. They had proven revenue. I think we got certified with only two or three airplanes, and then added crew and planes as quickly as we could get the crews trained as "Morris Air Service" crews instead of Ryan or Sierra Pacific crews.
CARRIER TYPE OPERATING
Carlsbad-Palomar Airlines, Inc. DS NO/NE
(Operating-NO / NE Not Yet Effective)
In the list of applicants Carlsbad-Palomar Airlines, Inc. is listed with Theodore Vallas as President. (Last updated 08/2010).
The list of Certified Air Carriers also lists Carlsbad Palomar Airlines but with Lawrence Sittig as President (Last updated 09/2012).
atcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 794 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 22239 times:
Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 9):
Quoting rduco (Reply 8):
Just curious, how much one should have to go from nothing to flying
I would say $5 to $10 million minimum but I might be wrong
I seem to remember JetBlue reaching about $130mil in backing and $30mil cash on hand before beginning ops on Feb 11, 2000 (I only remember the date because it's my birthday!). B6 people may know the numbers better than I do, but they did a sh*tload of fundraising before they got going. Granted they were taking delivery of brand new airplanes out of JFK and wanted to make a real go of it, but $30mil in 2013 dollars is close to $40mil.
If I were starting a small airline with E170s, I wouldn't even look at leasing an airplane until I had about $15mil cash. Anything less and it's destined for failure, because most start-ups won't become profitable until 1-2 years after launch...that is, if they become profitable at all. Airlines need enough cash and backing to survive the first two years because they have to assume they'll be loss-making.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 23456 posts, RR: 50 Reply 14, posted (10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 22189 times:
At the time (August 2011) the DOT financial fitness test determined they would $11.9 million free and clear in the bank prior to launching service in addition to about $7.4 million in pre-operating expenses they would need prior to commencing revenue operations. It was estimated they would incur $28.0mil in expenses within the first 12-months.
For this as I posted in Reply 4, they had indicated they were trying to drum up $32mil in equity.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15055 posts, RR: 26 Reply 15, posted (10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 22117 times:
Quoting rduco (Reply 8): how much $$ should someone have to start an airline (regional).
As much as possible. You can't buy success, only more time of being unsuccessful before becoming a failure. As far as airlines go, you cannot have too much capital, but no number can guarantee success.
Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 10): How much cash did B6 have when they started? It was quite a bit if I remember right.
I want to say somewhere in the $60 million range. It helped that they knew what they were doing, which had a lot to do with how they were able to find that kind of capital in the first place.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 23456 posts, RR: 50 Reply 16, posted (10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 22076 times:
Reference JetBlue, it was at the time the best capitalized start up in history.
David Neeleman managed to raise $130.2 million start-up capital much of it from venture capital or equity firms.
Chase Capital Partners $20 million
Multiple George Soros funds $40 million combined
Western Presidio - $30mil
Banc Boston Ventures - $10mil
Massachusetts Mutual Life - $10mil
Nationsbank Montgomery Securities -$10mil
David Neeleman invested $10.2 million.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13 Reply 17, posted (10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 22060 times:
Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 10): No matter what kind of business you are thinking of starting up, you need cash and lots of it, lack of startup money is gotta be the number one cause of failure for any new business.
Quoting dxBrian (Reply 11): There are so many variables that it is hard to give a good answer. A large part of the costs is having enough money on hand to operate your proposed schedule for 90 days without any revenue.
Agreed, usually referred to in management as overcoming "barriers to entry". You need lots of $$$ to cover all your startup costs such as regulatory and so forth, your marketing, which needs to separate your product from the pack, and then as dxBrian says, operate for some period as though you are taking in no $$$. Anything brought in is gravy.
I was president of a golf course 97-01, and when we budgeted, we planned on zero April and October revenue,and put forth a budget to the membership on that basis that was in balance (this is Western Canada, where winter can last long and come early). Any April or October revenue was gravy. 1999, very favourable weather, we opened April 9, and our club pro put out a very nice incentive rate which brought in about $30k (this is a small club but challenging course). October was good as well. At the spring meeting the next year with an audited statement we were able to show not 'in balance", but a net of $200k, which went down very well with the members. Thank you, weather gods.
sunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1997 posts, RR: 9 Reply 24, posted (10 months 6 days ago) and read 17286 times:
Quoting PSAJet17 (Reply 23): Quoting sunking737 (Thread starter):
I read on another web site that California Pacific has closed down before their first flight as they ran out of money.
Quoting sunking737 (Reply 21):
A friend of mine who writes manuals for airlines. Very trusted person.
Sunking737: I'm confused now. Did you see this story on another website as you stated in the first post or did you hear it from your friend who writes airline manuals?
There is no link as I was PM on my Facebook page by her. She is a very trusted source of information. She has to sign NDA with clients. She couldn't say anything unless they closed.
Just an MSPAVGEEK
25 PSAJet17: Thanks, Sunking737. The last thing I saw about CPAir was a small piece in some smaller newspapers (Encinitas for one) that spoke about the plan to be
26 EMBQA: I don't think their aircraft ever flew after the delivery flight
27 commavia: Exactly. I realize there were a few people invested in this venture, but it was honestly a ridiculous concept from the start, and it's hardly unique
28 mariner: You may be right, but if they can find the money for it, go for it. Isn't that a function of capitalism? Few people gave tuppence for Allegiant's cha
29 Polot: I think PeopleExpress could succeed if they are careful and play their cards rights, but over all I agree with you. I had no faith in this project or
30 XEspecialist: Bret Ebaugh and his wife Lisa Ebaugh were previously listed as Chief Pilot and Manager of Inflight Training respectively. Information on both of them
31 commavia: The function of a capitalist market is to maximize capital. I'm all for people taking risks - it is inherently necessary in a capitalist system - but
32 mariner: I bought into Apple Computers when the shares were $12 each - and (everyone thought) headed for oblivion. I knew the ricks - and look at 'em now. Tha
33 commavia: With respect, this idea bears no resemblance to Apple at any point in that company's history. Your investment in Apple was far better than any invest
34 mariner: No one else thought so then. Although many are wise after the event now, of course. Anyone could have said the same about Allegiant - and many did. F
35 XEspecialist: Hold that thought... I'm with Mariner on this one. Commavia, using your values as to what constitutes an 'efficient' investment in the economy, FedEx
36 F9animal: I was hopeful this airline would make it, and still hopeful at this point. I trust you Sunking! I just hate to see Vallas dream not come true.
37 sccutler: As are Delta, United, USAirways, Frontier, etc., each having benefited from the cleansing touch of the bankruptcy judge's decrees. ... I still entert
38 SocalApproach: Not to highjack the thread but I was also looking forward to this startup. It reminded me of LV Air also. What has happened to them? http://flylvairno
39 rampart: In your opinion, Commavia. A group of smart people -- we have no corner on the market here on A.net -- also thought it was not ridiculous, was possib
40 PSAJet17: I sent an email to Tom Morrow asking him about rumors that the airline was shutting down. Here is his reply: Tom Morrow [email@example.com] Sent: S
41 ScottB: Neeleman's involvement was critical to getting funding in place for the venture, as he had been June Morris' right-hand man and a co-founder of WestJ
42 sunking737: PSAJet thanks for the update. When pushed more my "friend" started to back peddle and said they laid off some folks. I now feel that I was mislead by
43 slider: Vallas is a good man, but let it go. He's accomplished much, but enjoy retirement already! This is a cockamamie scheme anyhow.
44 SANFan: Thank you so much for doing that PSA'. It's nice to see something "real" expressed in a thread such as this rumor-based one full of lots of opinions.
45 OB1504: The reason we remember cases like FedEx are because those are the very rare exceptions. Every day, similar business plans fail and we don't even disc
46 mariner: It is the function of the FAA to decide if the intended business meets all the legal, operational, technical and financial requirements. It is a not
47 bennett123: XEspecialist "The bigger the risk, the greater the reward". I fail to follow your logic. AFAIK, there is no guarantee that if you take a crazy gamble,
48 mariner: There are no guarantees at all. Investing is a perpetual balance between risk and reward. Cautious investors shun the big risks and thus miss out on
49 LAXintl: What we will need to hear soon, is another pleading to the DOT to extend their start-up authority timeframe. They are already living on borrowed time
50 JA: I do not think your friend is that off. An airline planning to fly on February 25 isn't this quiet. An airline not sure of flying by that date should
51 Polot: What is especially problematic for them is that any additional extension must have been filed by 45 days before expiration of the authority. As far a
52 F9animal: Sunking, dont take it personal, or discredit your source. CP has been very quiet, and many wondered if they were going to throw in the towel. If anyth
53 JA: Yep. In addition, if people are being let go before certification is complete, that is a big flag. Typically, the personnel needs increase as one app
54 AirDance: http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/...ornia-Pacific-FAA-airline-delayed/ According to this article from the San Diego Union-Tribune, "The airline —
55 Jamake1: It appears to me that CPA was perhaps, a bit too premature in taking delivery of an aircraft when all of their ducks were not in a row with the FAA...
56 LAXintl: So CP Air is; - In a dispute with the regulator that is supposed to bless them and provide ongoing oversight. - Has a E170 sitting on the ramp collect
57 Polot: I think it is pretty clear that management at CP has been poor to say the least, which does little to inspire people to invest much needed money into
58 PSAJet17: I'm at a point I don't know which tale to believe. Tom Morrow responded to my email with a "rumors are untrue" reply. Today's story in the San Diego p
59 WarmNuts: Having read the thread top-to-bottom, Commavia didn't simply state that the "odds are against this particular venture" as you claim. To the contrary,
60 xespecialist: Richard Branson is often credited for saying the following: "If you want to be a Millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline."
61 Raddek: So if I want make a billion dollars, then I should start with a trillion then?
62 hawaiian717: NBC San Diego has an article this morning about California Pacific. Nothing really new. Approval deadline is Feb 25, holdup is documentation. http://w
63 Polot: Funny, in this article: while in the article posted by AirDance in reply 54 dated Feb. 5 (11 days ago): [Edited 2013-02-16 13:22:30]
64 BMI727: The issue with these sorts of things is that they're always bureaucracy and documentation right up until they aren't.
65 PSAJet17: Tom Morrow, VP Communications CPAir, responded to a question on their Facebook page saying: "Tom Morrow FAA certification should be complete within th
66 usxguy: Sometimes items don't get docketed as quickly as they should... keep an eye on airlineinfo.com
67 Polot: Ignore airlineinfo.com (subscribe to see the dockets? HA!). Go directly to the source, regulations.gov. CP's docket number is DOT-OST-2010-0126. They
68 sunking737: Here is a link to today's L.A. Times about California Pacific.... http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...extension-20130225,0,4287214.story
69 0NEWAIR0: The managment team basically dismantled last summer, CP Air is STILL trying to find new managment. (I believe) They will never fly.
70 PSAJet17: Emailed the author of this story and his reply was: "Yes, the DOT told me yesterday that they had received an extension request that had yet to be po
71 slider: Or, he's a well meaning old rich guy with the best intentions but is in way over his head. Vallas is a smart guy and I admire his work ethic and cont
72 OB1504: And I heard it was from C.R. Smith. One day we should have a thread to find the origin of that quote once and for all.
73 F9animal: It has been a difficult process for CP. But.... They are still fighting, and show no signs of throwing in the towel. This airline will fly, and Vallas
74 Goldenshield: That airplane needed to be flying 2 weeks ago yesterday to meet even this new deadline.
75 Boeing717200: The runway at that airport is 4897 feet in length with 300 feet of pavement and a cliff as a safety area at the primary runway end. This gives it an a
76 slider: Never underestimate the ability and desire of people to throw away money in a well intentioned cause.
77 FATFlyer: That extension request is now posted at regulations.gov. Document number is DOT-OST-2010-0126-0037.
78 LAXintl: Its basically a pleading asking the DOT to give CP Air an opended ended startup timeframe, while trying to paint all the stumbling blocks to date in t
79 Polot: I thought that was the amount invested so far in the airline, not the amount that they have necessarily burned through yet. But your legalese might b
80 prost: I love this quote from the LA Times story: "Tom Morrow, a spokesman for the airline, said most of the delays so far are due to discrepancies over regu
81 PlymSpotter: I can tell you for a fact that 4,197ft is plenty of runway for those E-Jets on the routes suggested. Dan
82 Boeing717200: The issue with the certification is operational. They aren't just proposing 500 mile stages. They also have to contend with a 3.2 degree glideslope t
83 PlymSpotter: None of which are beyond the E-jet's capabilities. If there's an issue here it's not about the physical performance of the aircraft. Dan
84 Boeing717200: You can land a 737 in 4,200 feet with a 3.2 glideslope as well, but that doesn't mean the FAA will sign off on your operating certificate allowing yo
85 PlymSpotter: So as I've been saying, that would not be due to the performance of the aircraft but the discretion of the FAA. I find this interesting because in ge
86 Boeing717200: This is a certification issue. I think your misinterpreting what I'm saying. Your looking at it from a raw aircraft performance standpoint. In terms
87 rsmith6621a: The problem is PERFORMANCE... There is no T/O and Land DATA at CSB at the current time in CPAs hands. You could not fly that E-170 out of there fully
88 dxBrian: Why would you use LAX as an alternate for OAK? There are better choices, particularly SJC. but you also have SMF, SAC, STS and SFO (though I wouldn't
89 rsmith6621a: Why?? Because it is the only legal field in the area. They will have to prove that they can meet economics by being able to fly to destination then t
90 PlymSpotter: Not at all, I was replying to what you said below, regarding the Declared Distances not being sufficient for an E 170. They in themselves are suffici
91 dxBrian: How many times have you had to use LAX as an alternate for OAK? There are so many other alternates available within 200 NM that the chances are pretty
92 rsmith6621a: I have done over 15K dispatch releases for the E-175 and I can tell you that this aircraft will not get off the ground at KCRQ doing CRQ OAK with LAX
93 PlymSpotter: Then you need to understand that an ERJ 170 has vastly superior performance compared to the ERJ 175, the two are not comparable like that. I cannot g
94 sunking737: Here is the latest news story about California Pacific...... http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/...cific-airline-application-refiled/
95 rsmith6621a: Sorry but this is not going to be a a gate near you...EVER.. Just the marketing cost to overcome all damage and the false starts and rumors will cost
96 jmc1975: Is that some kind of joke? It has no indication that it's CalPac, but the livery is somewhat indicative of it.
97 sccutler: Cash in on what? The opportunity to lose what little he has remaining of his personal assets? What possible "IRS loopholes" could be of use here?
98 Polot: Uhh, did you actually read the article at all?
99 flashmeister: You mean other than them specifically mentioning California Pacific Airlines? Excerpt: California Pacific Airlines is asking for extensions after bot
100 BoeingGuy: STS isn't suitable due to very short runway and lack of facilities. FAT is also sometimes used as an alternate for the Bay Area airports, like AA's D
101 LAXintl: I hope Mr. Vallas is planning on becoming a centenarian. Frankly shame on these guys. In April it will be 3-years since they started their formal appl
102 ouboy79: Huh? The entire article is about them. Not sure what article you were reading.
103 F9animal: The fact they are seeking extensions clearly shows ambition. Vallas is determined, and he will see to it that the airline does get airborne. The posit
104 LAXintl: No one is saying these guys don't have ambition. However seemingly they are not very organized in meeting DOT and FAA requirements in a timely matter.
105 coreyrust: What is the FAA's biggest reservation in granting them the sought after approval? Is it the management team, Carlsbad as the airport, other?
106 PSA727: I'm not shocked about this at all. Their E170 has been parked at CLD for about half a year now. I'm more shocked that they ever intended one of those
107 Goldenshield: Assuming optimal conditions taking off on runway 6, the performance king or the series, the CRJ-700, could maybe get to DFW without bumping in the de
108 usxguy: Mesa flew 4-5 Dash 8-Q200s a day to CLD from Phoenix.... maybe something else is going on....
109 boeing717200: You can't compare the airfield performance of a turboprop with an RJ. Its apples to oranges. Its like saying a 747 should be able to launch off of an
110 UAL747DEN: I have been saying this from day one but I'll say it again, what exactly do the "believers" believe in? Nothing about this airline is viable, NOTHING
111 lightsaber: California Pacific gains a new CEO: http://carlsbad.patch.com/articles/c...esident-flights-hopeful-mid-summer I'm enjoying following the airline parti
112 mariner: So it is someone's dream - let's call it Vanity Airlines. Many on a.net dream of starting an airline. If he's got the money, if he can afford it, or
113 0NEWAIR0: Are you sure about that? I think all they have now is a DoM and a Chief Inspector. If that's true, they still need a new DO, a new Director of Safety
114 PlymSpotter: The CRJs and EMBs do not handle heat or short runway well - even a EMB135 would struggle come summer. They've got the right aircraft in the ERJ170, t
115 usxguy: Where do you get that I'm comparing aircraft performance? I didn't see the previous post and was referring to the USAirways route map regarding the m
116 rlwynn: CLD does not get very hot in the summer. The August average high temp is 73° F.