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IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks ago) and read 11690 times:

The talks between the Unions and IB about the re-structuring plans are in a dead end.
The six Unions announced no less than five days of strike during the second half of February.

Link in Spanish for now.

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1359717363_272546.html


Rgds.
G.


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
129 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinedurangomac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks ago) and read 11566 times:

I think unions have their place but in the airline industry I think they no longerbelong. Actions like this are in my opinion what dooms a company.

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6467 posts, RR: 32
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11393 times:
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So, you live in a country that:

1) Economically is a basketcase
2) Pollitically, is as corrupt as has seldom been seen anywhere
3) Is bankrupt
4) Qualified people are emmigrating in a massive scale (Mexico has received over 35,000 Spanish citizens in the last 2 years, to the point we´ve had to change our immigration laws) And it´s architects, engineers, economists, financiers, not waiters or drug dealers. They are young too
5) Has over 25% unemployment

And your employer tells you:

1) We´ll be firing 23% of the workforce, 4,500 people (and we know that with the new laws in Spain you get nothing when fired)
2) We´ll be reducing 15% capacity
3) And oh, by the way, we´ve created an LCC where you pilots we´ll be making 50% of what you currently make, with more flying hours.

Are you supposed to take all of this with a smile and thank your employer? What sane union wouldn´t try to get a better deal?

Add to that the really bad job IAG is making in the PR department by not forcefully eliminating the rumors that BA is screwing IB and you get this:

CONFRONTATION

And the passengers are screwed. But, frankly, if I were living in a country in the conditions Spain is in now, I would thank my unions. Furthermore, It´s starting to look that Mr. Walsh is leading by conflict and is betting the Spanish will tire of IB and see its employees as spoiled brats. That would happen in more prosperous economic times but not now.

It´s not just the employees that are screwing IB.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5302 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11329 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
t´s starting to look that Mr. Walsh is leading by conflict

It seemed to work for him at BA


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6467 posts, RR: 32
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11325 times:
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Quoting anstar (Reply 7):
It seemed to work for him at BA

True. But remind me when was the UK in the position Spain is in now?


User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3398 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11297 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Are you supposed to take all of this with a smile and thank your employer? What sane union wouldn´t try to get a better deal?

The trouble being, by fighting for a better deal you might take the whole house down with you.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6467 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11264 times:
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Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 9):
The trouble being, by fighting for a better deal you might take the whole house down with you.

I agree. But Spain and the Spanish are at a point when losing your job means real dire straits. And no possibility of working for at least three years. In short, they have nothing to loose. So they don´t really give a crap wether IB disappears or not. I agree that striking is in general counterproductive, but under the circumstances of IB workers it´s really not. IAG needs to get this. Unless what they really want is to let IB die. Which is what I suspect, by the way.


User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11261 times:

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 9):
The trouble being, by fighting for a better deal you might take the whole house down with you.

As the employees found out at Eastern.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11254 times:

IAG is not leading by conflict. The unions have been given the chance to negotiate and SEPLA in particular has been confrontational for over a year. It's sad when it has come to this but IAG has been very clear that 31 January was a hard deadline and that "Plan B" will be pursued if the unions strike.

If the unions strike I would not be surprised if the strikers are locked out.


User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3338 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11196 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
The six Unions announced no less than five days of strike during the second half of February.

Is this five separate days, very disruptive, or 5 continuous days, you can plan around it?



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6467 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11116 times:
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Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 13):
Is this five separate days, very disruptive, or 5 continuous days, you can plan around it?

It´s five separate days. Dates to be announced later by the unions.


User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11116 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
1) Economically is a basketcase
2) Pollitically, is as corrupt as has seldom been seen anywhere
3) Is bankrupt

The economy situation is really bad, but in a year is expected to improve. I think that corruption is a very serious problem in Spain, but it is not that common. There a lot of countries that have a lot more corruption, i.e. Mexico, with no offense.
Finally, Spain is NOT in bankruptcy, the country has not even been rescued yet and it is not expected to be.

Back to this thread, I think that both management and unions are to blame, and if things don't get any better soon they will ending in closing down Iberia.



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlinebluesky73 From UK - England, joined Oct 2012, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10942 times:

Hopefully both can sort this out for the good of the airline, both employer and employee as not having an IB will be a loss to both parties and to European aviation history.

Unions aren't always for the good of staff but not sure what Spanish unions are like?

As mentioned before IB needs to tone and get fit and that inforunately means short term pain, hopefully long term gain.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10844 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 7):
As the employees found out at Eastern.

You can add PU to that list, and there are some others for sure. IIRC PU had more than 900 workers for a fleet of 11 CRJ9... They never expected a "lefty" government will choose to close the airline instead of keeping a bleeding airline, and then crashed against the reality...let's hope the IB workers can be more realistic in their demands...

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10815 times:

Information about this subject in English can be found here :

http://atwonline.com/operations-main...alks-fail-strike-action-looms-0131

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinesumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10791 times:

Quoting mfc (Reply 11):
Back to this thread, I think that both management and unions are to blame, and if things don't get any better soon they will ending in closing down Iberia.

Oh well, at least IAG have Vueling that can do the same job as IB, but much more efficiently.
I am sure they would be quite happy to get into the long haul too, if need be.


User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1142 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10290 times:

The employees will sink IB!  . No, no, no!!!!

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6467 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10202 times:
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Quoting mfc (Reply 11):
The economy situation is really bad, but in a year is expected to improve.

Really? How strange. Both your government and the IMF have been panicking seeing how Spain´s economy will behave in 2013. Just a heads up: "Continued destruction of employment", "Another year of recession"

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1342784004_152133.html
http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1343400827_935244.html

Quoting mfc (Reply 11):
I think that corruption is a very serious problem in Spain, but it is not that common. There a lot of countries that have a lot more corruption, i.e. Mexico, with no offense.

While Mexico has been the pet boy of corruption scandals and a reference, things have changed. Corruption in Spain and Greece has outshone us for the past 5 years at least.

You don´t think so? Think Bárcenas, Urdangarín, Gurtel, Garzón´s inhabilitation, Ana Mato, Cospedal´s and her family members, the Madrid Arena Deaths, etc. etc. No offense. But really, a 30 million Euro fortune and a 33,000 hectare agro industrial exploitation in Argentina are telling.

Add to that the darkish ways Spain has engaged in privatizing different industries. Specially your wonderful "Heath System" which in Spain it´s being curtailed to the point people are dying of preventable diseases. Not to mention emergencies. Oh wait, emergencies don´t exist in Spain, since your government is closing many ER´s for "lack of use". No offense.

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/.../actualidad/1359751226_077767.html
http://politica.elpais.com/politica/.../actualidad/1359740934_577829.html
http://politica.elpais.com/politica/.../actualidad/1359752870_121146.html

Quoting mfc (Reply 11):
Spain is NOT in bankruptcy, the country has not even been rescued yet and it is not expected to be.

Yeah...Well, you might want to have a discussion about that with:

1) My UX friend, who has ended up flying with CM as FO, being a 737NG captain back in Spain (He did not leave willingly)
2) My homeless friends in Madrid
3) MAD, which has lately looked pretty dirty due to its sanitation personnell being on strike
4) The newly arrived qualified immigrants in Mexico from Spain
5) BANKIA

Back to the thread. IB as such will not survive. But it has to find a way for its unions to work hand in hand with management. i dontt´hink it´s in the interest of IAG to have the IB brand disappear. Radicalization is not the answer.

[Edited 2013-02-01 23:46:39]

User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10136 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):
Yeah...Well, you might want to have a discussion about that with:

1) My UX friend, who has ended up flying with CM as FO, being a 737NG captain back in Spain (He did not leave willingly)
2) My homeless friends in Madrid
3) MAD, which has lately looked pretty dirty due to its sanitation personnell being on strike
4) The newly arrived qualified immigrants in Mexico from Spain
5) BANKIA

Airline pilots' situation in Europe is not good, there are a lot of them and no jobs for everyone. Middle East airlines, many Asian carriers and South American airlines hire European pilots.

I live in Madrid and I don't know any homeless, sure there are a lot, but not as much as in New York City or San Francisco.

Sanitation personeel problem at MAD has been solved, there is no strike anymore and MAD now looks spotless. That kind of strike can occur regardless the economic situation as they were re-negociating their contracts.

Ok, Bankia is a shame, but what about Santander or BBVA? Oh, we can also talk about Movistar, Repsol, Inditex...



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1880 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10020 times:
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Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
It´s starting to look that Mr. Walsh is leading by conflict and is betting the Spanish will tire of IB and see its employees as spoiled brats.

Mr Walsh loves confrontation...........he deliberately provokes fights between staff and mgmt rather than try to find a mutually agreed solution. Even when the unions offer a compromise he pushes them over the edge.
He did it in Aer Lingus, he did it in BA, looks like he is now doing it in IAG.


User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 3040 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9997 times:

BASSA offered a compromise...???

Please, don't turn this thread into a comedy sketch.  

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6467 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9972 times:
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Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 19):
Mr Walsh loves confrontation...........he deliberately provokes fights between staff and mgmt rather than try to find a mutually agreed solution. Even when the unions offer a compromise he pushes them over the edge.
He did it in Aer Lingus, he did it in BA, looks like he is now doing it in IAG.

Well, as I´ve written before. The IAG case is different as the IB employees have really nothing to loose. It´s the same for them if IB disappears or if it stays. And given the political situation in Spain these days, nothing is certain.

Rajoy is being asked to resign. I don´t think he will agree to have IB killed by IAG. He´s clutching at straws lately and the loss of IB can be the final one. He is not going to risk it.

Mr. Walsh should be wise to see these things. No matter what worked for him before in other carriers.


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1603 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9821 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
Pollitically, is as corrupt as has seldom been seen anywhere
3) Is bankrupt
4) Qualified people are emmigrating in a massive scale (Mexico has received over 35,000 Spanish citizens in the last 2 years, to the point we´ve had to change our immigration laws) And it´s architects, engineers, economists, financiers, not waiters or drug dealers. They are young too
5) Has over 25% unemployment

Nonsense, there are far more corruption in other contry's like Portugal, Italy, Poland etc..

The myth about Spain being bankrupt is really annoying, even more country's like Germany have more debts then Spain.
The BANKS are bankrupt not the country that's a HUGE difference!!

The 25% unemployment rate is sure worrysome, however it does not represent the reality. Many jobs are illegal employment, so if you add that jobs the unemployment rate is not that high.

About the Iberia Strike i don't really see how it is gonna help them.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9641 times:

Now that Eu has tried saving every ailing too big to fail its time to let corporations go down with no help. Clean the system, hope IB is just the first example. SK needs to get flushed too IMO.

User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9639 times:

Quoting anstar (Reply 3):

He always has done, that's his way. His way or no way, but I always knew tackling the Spanish workers would be difficult for him.


User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9898 times:

Such a strike is just going to enforce people´s opinion that Iberia is one of the European carriers that is not a good idea to book, just like Alitalia. Unreliable with bad service and unfriendly personal. And do not get me wrong I love Iberia, I have 4 flights booked with them this summer, but I can tell you that the travel agent looked quite shocked, when I decided to fly with Iberia via Madrid instead of LH via FRA,

Iberia needs to be restructured but it won´t work if the employees do not go along. If the friendliness and service does not improve Iberia will fail. Not saying all employees at Iberia are unfriendly, but some of the cabin crews showed a service standard that you would never see with BA or LH.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4987 posts, RR: 4
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9860 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
The talks between the Unions and IB about the re-structuring plans are in a dead end.
The six Unions announced no less than five days of strike during the second half of February.

On the 5th day of strikes there won't be a job to fight for since the airline would've seized flying and belly up...

Great way to fight for job security... Honestly, I understand unions fight for better conditions but in this case the airline has no chance of surviving if a 5 day strike goes ahead...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineTYCOON From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 416 posts, RR: 3
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10041 times:

Although not necessarily condoning the strike action of Iberia employees nor am I a particular fan of the airline (I have flown them 41 times and they rank 8th in frequency out of the 159 airlines that I have flown), I can't allow some very strange and incorrect statements about Spain to be left uncorrected, such as

AR385:
While Mexico has been the pet boy of corruption scandals and a reference, things have changed. Corruption in Spain and Greece has outshone us for the past 5 years at least.

Really???? According to the latest report of the least to most corrupt nations in the world (Transparency.org 2012 report), it wasn't even close. Spain ranked 30th out of 174 countries and Mexico 105th... To even suggest that corruption is worse in Spain than is Mexico is rocambolesque to say the least (Greece by the way ranked 94th).

Although the situation in Spain is critical, the government is not near to bankruptcy (in fact govt debt as a percentage of GDP is lower than in the UK, USA or France for instance, you just need to check the stats). The country will still be in recession for most of 2013 but the situation is stabilizing with exports picking up and job loss slowing (even one of the articles AR385 attached in Spanish states this). Most economists now believe the country is bottoming out, and some regions namely Pais Vasco, Navarra, have never entered a recession.

So let's keep the debate intelligent and informed... not full of tabloid stats that are meaningless and statements (such as the corruption one) that are just plain ridiculous.

BTW, I am an economist by training.


User currently offlineTYCOON From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 416 posts, RR: 3
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9974 times:

Oh, and Portugal, Poland and Italy ranked respectively 33rd, 41st and 72nd in this 2012 report... still nowhere near Mexico's corruption level.

User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9897 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 19):
Mr Walsh loves confrontation...........he deliberately provokes fights between staff and mgmt rather than try to find a mutually agreed solution. Even when the unions offer a compromise he pushes them over the edge.
He did it in Aer Lingus, he did it in BA, looks like he is now doing it in IAG.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong again.

A huge amount of structural change was achieved during his time at BA without confrontation with the unions:

a) A major overhaul of ground staff working practices prior to the move to Terminal 5.

b) Significant changes to the terms of the company's pension funds including changes to retirement ages and contributions

c) Cost and productivity savings amongst pilots, ground staff and engineers during the great financial crisis

If you actually check your facts, the only exception was cabin crew and you can see from uncontested court evidence that the cabin crew union did not at any time negotiate with the company in good faith and thought if they stonewalled the company BA would leave them alone. They never offered anything as a compromise.

Willie Walsh does not provoke confrontation. He is a businessman that knows that the airline is there to deliver a return to investors and decisions have to be made on the basis of cold hard facts.


User currently offlinealphaomega From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 581 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9711 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 22):
The 25% unemployment rate is sure worrysome, however it does not represent the reality. Many jobs are illegal employment, so if you add that jobs the unemployment rate is not that high.

Haha oh...well thanks to the illegal jobs everything is good.

IB needs to go through what almost every other carrier has gone through in the last 10 years, and the same bickering with the unions and threats of strikes will continue just as it has in the past. The only difference will be if they make it out or not - I'm betting they will, but it will be a tough year for them as an airline. Happy to see the new A330s coming on-line, maybe getting rid of the A340s will help, but they've had financial issues for years so we'll see. As much as I hate unions, they won't be responsible for sinking the airline if it doesn't work out. Their demise may have been set in motion a while back.


User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 604 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9604 times:

In my opinion, the time for IB has been and gone unfortunately. Employees of IB need to wake up to the fact that the airline needs to trim down and get healthy. Yes, it will be a painful process, much like it was for BA and many other carriers - but it's a much more attractive prospect to the alternative.

Like it or not, IAG and WW will most CERTAINLY win-out and press ahead with the proposed changes. The Spanish unions are no match for them. BASSA couldn't stop him after all.

I actually think the best option for IAG is to go ahead with the proposed major overhaul and I would not be too sad to see the IB brand disappear. Years of sub-par product, poor customer service and reviews have blighted to company for so long that I don't think their reputation can ever be built up. We may see a Spanish Airways being born, or Vueling become the nations flag carrier with long-haul service.

Either way, this needs to happen and ASAP or there will be nothing left to save, sadly.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9615 times:

UX will be pleased if IB employees go on strike. Again more pax flying UX at higher fares.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):

Well, as I´ve written before. The IAG case is different as the IB employees have really nothing to loose. It´s the same for them if IB disappears or if it stays. And given the political situation in Spain these days, nothing is certain.

I agree plus the fact that Spain isn't the UK. If IB goes bankrupt they don't have a job and may get another one at the airline which picks up the slack left by IB. However this would mean lower wages. If they agree to the wage cuts, they get lower wages as well. Thus, why not strike to prevent the wage cuts? It makes even more sense if the employees don't see a future in IB regardless whether they make a sarcifice or not.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 22):
The BANKS are bankrupt not the country that's a HUGE difference!!

Basically, the banks aren't even bankrupt (if so they wouldn't be around). However, usually the country of residence bails out its own banks (like we see here in The Netherlands). In Spain the banks are bailed out by the EFSF, which basically means that Spain does not have the cash to do it themselves (of which one can debate if this means close to bankruptcy or not).

Quoting autothrust (Reply 22):
The 25% unemployment rate is sure worrysome, however it does not represent the reality. Many jobs are illegal employment, so if you add that jobs the unemployment rate is not that high.

Which is one of the problems. The people working in this environment don't pay taxes but do use the facilities of the government.

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 30):
As much as I hate unions, they won't be responsible for sinking the airline if it doesn't work out. Their demise may have been set in motion a while back.

The most sensible comment in each strike vs no strike debate here on Anet. A strike can be the last straw (we've seen this at Sabena), but the root cause of the problems leading to the demise of a company are usually bad management decisions in the past and/or the inability or unwillingness to adapt to a changing environment. Does this jsutify a strike to perserve the current situation? No, but it surely explains why employees react to "sacrifices". In the end, those who brought the company in this situation either already left the company or don't feel much of the pain as the ordinary workers.


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9567 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 29):

Maybe so but he has caused confrontation with the staff, ie scabs, volunteer crew ect ect and bully boy management, which has filtered into nearly every department.
The man is as cunning as a fox.


User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1880 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9545 times:
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Quoting autothrust (Reply 22):
The 25% unemployment rate is sure worrysome, however it does not represent the reality. Many jobs are illegal employment, so if you add that jobs the unemployment rate is not that high.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):
The IAG case is different as the IB employees have really nothing to loose. It´s the same for them if IB disappears or if it stays. And given the political situation in Spain these days, nothing is certain.
Quoting EK413 (Reply 26):
Great way to fight for job security... Honestly, I understand unions fight for better conditions but in this case the airline has no chance of surviving if a 5 day strike goes ahead...

I think the issue here is that the IB workers are scared of what the future holds for them.....lots of Spaniards feel the same. They are thinking emotionally. Yes this strike could bring down the airline...but perhaps they are thinking we will lose anyway so lets make a gamble.

I'm not condoning their actions, just trying to figure out why they are doing what I think is an irrational move. I think there are many ways to disrupt an airline without actually going on strike.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 29):
Willie Walsh does not provoke confrontation.

Ever have a drink with him on an overnight.........the crew's he worked with knew to just agree with whatever he said.....made the couple of beers more relaxing.

I do take your point on the BA cabin crew issue....I had thought that BASSA had offered a compromise in that situation. Obviously I am incorrect in that.

I will say that in my experience WW tries to provoke an emotional response from the other side in order to allow him to get the upper hand by remaining rational and hardline.


User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 604 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9530 times:

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 33):

I disagree with that. He did what needed to be done, and it upset a lot of staff, naturally. He had to make some hard decisions that I'm sure were very difficult but absolutely essential and now BA is seeing the many benefits of this.

IB staff will face some very challenging months ahead, but this is their only hope and deep down , I suspect they all know it.

[Edited 2013-02-02 05:15:15]

[Edited 2013-02-02 05:18:30]

User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9521 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 34):

I really couldn't imagine any crew sitting having a beer with him ha ha..
He is not very well regarded by any staff, most recently by LGW ramp staff whom I am sure they would love to take him out for a beer or two....


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9485 times:

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 35):

That's fair enough what he did but BA were not in any way the position IB are today. I think all Walsh wanted at the time to just contract the whole lot out and just keep pilots and managers.So far he has done a pretty good job of it.
Look after your employees, and they will look after your airline as the late lord King once said.
Now it's shaft your staff, make as much money for the shareholder and pay managers very large bonuses.

I am not just saying this happens at BA, it is happening all over the UK, most large corporations, banks included are doing this, it very much "the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer"

It is a sad situation the country is in , but for these large companies they have managed to use this as an excuse.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9296 times:

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 33):

The fact that you used such a disgustingly offensive word that deserves to stay in the 1970s says everything.

The idea for the Volunteer Cabin Crew programme actually came from the flight operations department not the board of BA.

As for making as much money for the shareholders, perhaps you'd like to tell us when BA/IAG shareholders last received a dividend?

[Edited 2013-02-02 06:07:04]

User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9061 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 38):

What? " bully boy management"? Well come on, he has brought that style with. Fair enough the shareholder may not be getting a dividend at the movement, but are you telling me managers are not getting big bonuses??

As for disgustingly "offensive" words I have used none such with. If what you, which I think you are referring too ie, Scab, it is actually deemed not an offensive word.
I will give you a definition.

Scab, Employee who 1 continues to work during strike action at the place of work
2 Accepts work where strike action is going on
3 Takes work in a non union shop or
4 under none union conditions where a union is trying to organise
A unit.Also called a black leg.

Scab , a crust which is formed over a cut or wound during healing.

Can you please tell me where I have used an offensive word, words in the last post? I have double checked but I cannot seem to see.

Rgds


User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1880 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8975 times:
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Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 36):
I really couldn't imagine any crew sitting having a beer with him ha ha..

Remember he was once an operational pilot many moons ago.....

....in fact Willie's flight career was saving by Unions at the time not allowing EI to lay off their cadets.....instead they were given Flight Ops positions until flying roles became available. (Can't remember the exact deal but it was along those lines)
He was also a member of the EI pilots union leadership at one point......very much a poacher turned gamekeeper.


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8980 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 40):

EagleBoy you couldn't have said it better.A friend of mine and his co workers fixed a minor fault on his Futura 737 once and I believe he gave them all a "carry off" but yeah you are spot on with the poacher, game keeper scenario.


User currently offlineRTFM From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8883 times:

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 39):
but are you telling me managers are not getting big bonuses??

How would you define 'big'........?


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8851 times:

Quoting RTFM (Reply 42):

You tell me?


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2742 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8743 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
It´s starting to look that Mr. Walsh is leading by conflict and is betting the Spanish will tire of IB and see its employees as spoiled brats.

It's a reasonable bet. IB's unions have made countless selfish and senseless strikes in the past and have a very bad reputation among Spaniards.

This time however, for the first time in ages, they are 100% right at striking and their action is fully justified. But will public opinion understand that this time? It's like the fable of the boy who cried wolf. And Walsh is betting that this conflict will end like the fable.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
the really bad job IAG is making in the PR department by not forcefully eliminating the rumors that BA is screwing IB

Indeed. If the "BA wants to destroy IB" rumors are just conspiracy theories, and I hope they are, why is IAG management not doing anything to counter them, thus leaving room for doubt?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
It´s not just the employees that are screwing IB.

  

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 5):
The trouble being, by fighting for a better deal you might take the whole house down with you.

It's a gamble they are willing to take, because, as others have said, they have nothing to lose. Furthermore, they have no hope in IB's future viability under the proposed plan; they do not feel that making a sacrifice today will help the airline in the future, which they view as doomed either way.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):
the IB employees have really nothing to loose. It´s the same for them if IB disappears or if it stays

Exactly. If IB disappears, they will either face long unemployment or find a job at a much lower wage at another airline. If IB survives under the proposed plan, they will either be fired and face long unemployment or keep their job at a much lower wage at IB. The outcome is the same for them.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
they have nothing to loose. So they don´t really give a crap wether IB disappears or not. I agree that striking is in general counterproductive, but under the circumstances of IB workers it´s really not. IAG needs to get this. Unless what they really want is to let IB die. Which is what I suspect, by the way.

  


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8702 times:

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 39):
What? " bully boy management"? Well come on, he has brought that style with. Fair enough the shareholder may not be getting a dividend at the movement, but are you telling me managers are not getting big bonuses??

As for disgustingly "offensive" words I have used none such with.

The dictionary definition of scab may not be offensive, but it is generally viewed as an offensive word and does serve to highlight some of the unreconstructed attitudes in some parts of BA.

I don't know of any big management bonuses. And if you look at executive pay generally in BA and IAG it's certainly not excessive compared to other FTSE 100 companies.

By many accounts Willie Walsh is no pussycat but he wasn't recruited to win any popularity contests. Unfortunately, BA had tried Mr Nice Guy (Rod Eddington) and he had two wildcat strikes by ground staff on his watch and he barely scratched the surface of restructuring BA. The aviation industry is brutally competitive and there are plenty of airlines setting out to grab BA's share of the UK market. Management can't ignore cold hard reality in the hope it will go away.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8717 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 44):
Indeed. If the "BA wants to destroy IB" rumors are just conspiracy theories, and I hope they are, why is IAG management not doing anything to counter them, thus leaving room for doubt?

IAG has rebutted the claims that it is investing in BA at the expense of Iberia.

If IAG wants to destroy Iberia why, pray tell, is it receiving new aircraft with new cabins, refurbishing aircraft, carrying out numerous initiatives to improve its operations and customer experience at Madrid?


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6467 posts, RR: 32
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8726 times:
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Interesting editorial today in El Pais:

http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/02/01/opinion/1359752381_777879.html


User currently offlineshuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8695 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 45):

Fair enough comment, I do not take things personally and as other posters have said about you, it's everybody's opinion on here not just your own.

We cannot all agree on everything.
Anyway moving on!


User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 802 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8622 times:

What a nightmare this must be for BA...I have a feeling it would be the same if AF were to buy AZ out. nothing good will come from that..

User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 604 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8101 times:

Quoting toobz (Reply 49):

Oh I don't know, AF is not exactly 'hot stuff' at the moment either, not sure I would want to see them snapping up any airlines too soon!

Does anyone know what sort of back-up plan IB has for these proposed strikes? Could we see BA being called in to help operate flights on behalf of IB?


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7972 times:

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 50):
Does anyone know what sort of back-up plan IB has for these proposed strikes? Could we see BA being called in to help operate flights on behalf of IB?

Iberia is required by law to operate a specified minimum service to certain destinations.

BA operating Iberia flights is probably an absolute no-no. There might be pressure from IAG for BA to at least cover some of the Iberia operated Madrid-Heathrow rotations but I expect BA staff would rather not get involved.


User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 604 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7780 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 51):

really? I never knew such laws existed that's rely interesting.
Why is that, political? Going off topic but I suppose that must include some service to the Canaries/Balearics.


Are there many carriers in Spain to offer spare capacity?


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7794 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):

What a strikingly accurate description...


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7682 times:
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I'm sad for IB, but they must restructure> I understand the employees frustration, but this is a self inflicted wound.

But how much does BA really have at stake?

Also:
But it is struggling to respond to rivals such as Latam Airline Group, formed this year through a merger of Brazilian and Chilean airlines.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/97b37...ce-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2JtpB6E5y

No amount of striking will make LAN/TAM less competitive. IB was given a breather by the 788 grounding, but that won't last forever. It isn't a question of if IB must cut, but how effective. One big cut is far better than cut followed by cut...

IMHO, BA made a mistake buying IB. Now they must do the best with the hand they have been dealt. Like it or not, IAG must cut job at IB.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 25):
Such a strike is just going to enforce people´s opinion that Iberia is one of the European carriers that is not a good idea to book, just like Alitalia.

That is the crux. I set of disruptive strikes is just an advertisement for the competition.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6467 posts, RR: 32
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7543 times:
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According to this, the involved unions will be deciding the logistics of their strike:

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1359925100_664231.html

But:

The strike dates will be defined on Monday (today for me) and will be five CONSECUTIVE days.

Which essentially means an all out war has broken out. I wonder why SEPLA is not joining though. Hard to see how IB is going to survive this.

[Edited 2013-02-04 01:10:36]

[Edited 2013-02-04 01:11:50]

User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7425 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54):
disruptive strikes is just an advertisement for the competition

IMO, is not "just an advertisement for the competition".... is THE BEST advertisement ( the most effective ), and it's free of charge for the competitors... definitely the worst thing you can do if you're struggling with low demand.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 55):
I wonder why SEPLA is not joining though.

I wouldn't be surprised if SEPLA joins the party in the last minute, that will allow them to say "we do our best to avoid this" in the future.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2742 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7142 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 51):
Iberia is required by law to operate a specified minimum service to certain destinations

AFAIK this normally concerns island destinations. Though it is true that in the case of transportation companies (airlines, trains, busses) Spanish law can require a minimum service to be provided. Not sure what the minimum would be in this case.

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 50):
Could we see BA being called in to help operate flights on behalf of IB?

Technically yes, but if they do that it would be an all-out war. If IAG really wants to play down the rumors that "BA is killing off IB", that's the last thing they want to do.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54):
No amount of striking will make LAN/TAM less competitive. IB was given a breather by the 788 grounding, but that won't last forever.

Indeed LAN-TAM is the number one threat to IB's former LatAm stronghold. However, they will need more than a handful of A333's to counter them... a good stopgap but I hope IAG has a better IB fleet plan than that for the future.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54):
BA made a mistake buying IB.

I think it can still work out in the long term, particularly throwing AA into the mix. But they really need to get their act together and sort this out ASAP.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 55):
I wonder why SEPLA is not joining though.

Surprising, given that they have historically been the most active strikers, even against the interests of other employees.


User currently offlinedcajet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7113 times:

I find it a bit disturbing that certain posters here can show such largesse with the careers and lives of other people. I wonder what would they do faced with the prospect of joining the breadlines in Spain - awfully long as they are these days, vis-a-vis the dire straits that Spain is facing today.

And the folks that will most likely be let go are the most "expensive" ones, i.e. the most senior, the least likely to be hired ever again by any airline. They are simply too old for this new economic order. Ahh... progress.

And if one has been to Spain over the past 6-8 months, understands Spanish and personally knows folks in the thick of it, one has to realize that the perception in Spain is that BA is calling the shots here, picking the cherries and so forth. Phrases like having given Iberia to the pirates are not unheard of. While I do not subscribe to that point of view, fact is, a good deal of people in Spain at large and in Iberia particularly feel that way. And perception, sooner or later, becomes reality if it is not stopped at its tracks.

Therefore the management at C/Velazquez 130 needs to prove that it is calling the shots here, not BA. So far, that has not been the case and time is running out before we may have to regret things.

[Edited 2013-02-04 13:09:38]


"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6955 times:
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Quoting r2rho (Reply 57):
I think it can still work out in the long term, particularly throwing AA into the mix. But they really need to get their act together and sort this out ASAP.
Quoting dcajet (Reply 58):

I find it a bit disturbing that certain posters here can show such largesse with the careers and lives of other people.

I don't take their trials for granted. I just jumped ship with a demotion and pay cut to preserve my carrier. Sometimes it is just seeing the writing on the walls.

IB is hurting at LAN/TAM are far more effective competitors today for the South American competition. Do I need to mention what FR and U2 has done to IB on short haul? There is no pretending this is the same economy that allowed the prior work conditions.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 58):
And the folks that will most likely be let go are the most "expensive" ones,

Why I took a pay cut. However, I held my ground as they wanted a far larger pay cut and I made my new employer compensate with vacation days.    This is why one moves when one can. I do not like the seniority system as it means no mobility. One must develop skills and there is an option with airline employees (e.g., management).

If I come across as harsh, I simply do not want IB employees to be in the same shape many of my friends are in. I jumped ship a mere 3 months ago. However, that is far better than what is happening now. The US economy shrank in the 4th quarter due to 'defense cuts' and I came out of that world. For those of us in it, the 'contraction' wasn't a surprise and its going to get worse. So I feel for the IB employees. But there must be money to pay them.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 58):
Therefore the management at C/Velazquez 130 needs to prove that it is calling the shots here, not BA. So far, that has not been the case and time is running out before we may have to regret things.

That has nothing to do with the economic reality. I know worker are frustrated, but scaring off customers is not going to preserve jobs. IB must:
1. Rationalize their fleet. BA will help here tremendously.
2. Reduce costs (the whole point of this thread).
3. Find ways to increase RASM. (e.g., better partnering to the East of Spain as IB's eastward routemap is too sparse).
4. Improve the customer experience (AA did it, so it is possible)

MAD has potential as a hub. But costs must be first brought in line. And quickly. For once the 788 grounding is lifted, IB will be facing a world of LAN 788 lovin' that will be tough. And FR will have a fun with a strike too...

Quoting EK413 (Reply 26):
Honestly, I understand unions fight for better conditions but in this case the airline has no chance of surviving if a 5 day strike goes ahead...

IB isn't that dire... I waited to rebut, but that is the truth. The issue is how much business it will cost them and thus jobs.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinedcajet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6892 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 59):
Why I took a pay cut. However, I held my ground as they wanted a far larger pay cut and I made my new employer compensate with vacation days.    This is why one moves when one can. I do not like the seniority system as it means no mobility. One must develop skills and there is an option with airline employees (e.g., management).

Two things come to mind:

1. The job mobility that we enjoy here in the US, is something very unique to our way of life and economic system. In most other countries it is not that easy to jump from job to job. Or cut deals for more vacation days - those are perks reserved for those in management. Which is hardly the case here - these jobs are all unionized and those deals you refer to are not possible. The fact you even bring it up as an example leads me to think you don't even get the predicament these people find themselves in.

2. You do understand that Spain is looking at 27% unemployment, don't you? So you hold on to what you have with tooth and nail.

Care to explain to me what TAM/Lan have to do with all this? Iberia's woes have little to do with Lan or Tam. You do realize that Iberia is much more than flying to Lim/Gye/Scl and Gru/Gig. I fail to see that point. There is a clear difference between Spain and its economic situation, its location in the context of the EU and Lan Chile and Tam Brazil - both Latin carriers with a whole different cost structure; and in the big picture of Iberia's woes they are not that fundamentally relevant. I agree though that Ryanair is a problem. And not just for Iberia. But for BA to LH to AF et al too.

[Edited 2013-02-04 21:35:17]

[Edited 2013-02-04 21:38:01]


"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlinedcajet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 61, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6882 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 59):
IB must:
1. Rationalize their fleet. BA will help here tremendously.
2. Reduce costs (the whole point of this thread).
3. Find ways to increase RASM. (e.g., better partnering to the East of Spain as IB's eastward routemap is too sparse).
4. Improve the customer experience (AA did it, so it is possible)


1. Iberia only has the 320 family and 330/340 in house. What exactly do you mean by rationalize? Unless rationalizing for you means stuff made in Seattle....

2. I think Iberia is trying to do that...

3. East of Spain - do you mean Italy, the Levant, Greece, China? Turkey? Russia?

4. AA improved its customer experience? Sorry but I need to laugh here, no offense. So can you explain why AA continues to have the worse indicators of ALL US airlines by most measures? A new 777 and a hurried and botched branding exercise (Tails of Desperation) hardly are any indicators of improved customer service.

And why would LAN 787 spell disaster for IB? Not sure I follow the logic. Unless the new cash cow route pairing is something like a nonstop Asturias-Arica... but for everything else, the 330/340 combo should do well. There are two city pairs in LatAm that are Iberia's cash cows: MAD/EZE and MAD/MEX - and neither of them have LAN or TAM competing directly with IB.

Have you seen the new IB Business class cabin that made its debut last week at FITUR? Far superior to what LAN has installed on their 787s.

Regards,



"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlinebagmanlgw From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6784 times:

Now that the Iberia unions have announced their intention for a series of 24 hour strikes up to the end of Feb

Have they actually announced the dates for the industrial action and what time they intend to start from ?

Bagmanlgw


User currently offlinecapri From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 452 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6715 times:

Is Air Nostrum part of strike???, am flying with them in Feb, between MAD-TNG

User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6692 times:

Quoting bagmanlgw (Reply 62):
Have they actually announced the dates for the industrial action and what time they intend to start from ?

The announcement will be made tomorrow, after a last meeting between the Unions and the company, but this meeting is considered "just a formality", and there is consensus among the Unions that an agreement with the company is already impossible. The *rumours* are there will be 5 consecutive days of strike, starting on Feb 18.

Source ( sorry, Spanish only ) :

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/...05/agencias/1360063556_897877.html

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6616 times:

Clearly IAG has no intention of backing down...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...in-in-taking-on-iberia-unions.html

Quote:
IAG Chief Executive Officer Willie Walsh pledged to push through job cuts at Spanish unit Iberia in the face of union opposition, pointing to his past record in slashing costs at British Airways and Aer Lingus Group Plc.

“We will reform Iberia and we will secure its viability,” Walsh said in London, adding that a move on Feb. 1 to go ahead with cuts without union agreement was the first of a number of “difficult” steps to be taken. “People can be confident we will resolve this issue. I’ve done it before and I’ll do it again.”

IAG is pressing on with a plan to shrink Iberia operations by 15 percent after the rejection of proposals that would have limited job losses to 3,147. While the capacity cut implies an initial workforce reduction of 3,500, analysts have said Walsh may need to eliminate more posts and cut pay if he’s to deliver a 600 million-euro ($814 million) earnings turnaround by 2015.

While Walsh previously faced down strikes to cut positions and wages at British Airways and as CEO of Ireland’s Aer Lingus, he said Iberia’s talks are being left to local executives.

“It’s the responsibility of the management at Iberia to do it and they’re the people that are managing the negotiations with the trade unions,” he said in an interview at the annual Business Travel Show in London. “They’re the people responsible for implementing the change, so they will continue to do it.”


User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6532 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):
Quoting capri (Reply 63):

Is Air Nostrum part of strike???, am flying with them in Feb, between MAD-TNG

Air Nostrum and Iberia Express are not part of the strike. However, handling will be on strike, so they will be affected in some measure, as well as any other airline serviced by Iberia Airport Services at any Spanish airport.



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlineacelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6491 times:

Suspect this is going to get messy, the Unions will figure they have nothing to lose and IAG will not want to be seen backing down, Just wonder if Iberia will see the year out. If not or it becomes very Bloody I can see BA getting the blame somehow, as said above IAG need to get the PR side sorted out sooner than later otherwise its just going to get very out of hand....


from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 68, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6487 times:

You can see from the latest traffic numbers the stark difference in the traffic performance of the two airlines.

Worringly, Iberia's revenue is falling faster than the cuts in capacity and cargo, seen as a indicator of future passenger trends, is down by 17%.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...YxfENoaWxkSUQ9LTF8VHlwZT0z&t=1

[Edited 2013-02-05 07:14:13]

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 69, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6309 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting dcajet (Reply 60):
The job mobility that we enjoy here in the US, is something very unique to our way of life and economic system.

You missed my point. One has to be flexible and mobile to stay employed in this economy. I get it. Did you bother reading about the overall job situation (US isn't a great market, not as bad as Spain, but not great)? What I didn't mention is the number who are outside the Aerospace industry who have taken up jobs in Singapore, Russia, and even parts of Africa that make living in Spain look easy.

I get that they have it tough. Striking will only drive business to LAN/TAM, FR, and U2.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 60):
Care to explain to me what TAM/Lan have to do with all this? Iberia's woes have little to do with Lan or Tam.

Their hubs are taking traffic and high yield passengers. Despite domestic markets open to foreign competition, they thrive. LAN has rights in Chile, Argentina (being constrained), Brazil, Colombia, Peru, and Ecuador. What happens to IB when LAN starts flying to Europe from new cities? That is why I see them as the big threat. Not just what they are doing today, but in the environment and potential for groath LAN/TAM is in a very exciting place!

Hence why I say when the 787 issues are resolved, they will be tough competition.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 61):
1. Iberia only has the 320 family and 330/340 in house. What exactly do you mean by rationalize? Unless rationalizing for you means stuff made in Seattle....

Nothing with Seattle. You'll find I'm not A vs. B. What I mean is dump the A340s that are not on profitable routes and quickly replace them with aircraft that can be profitable at $96/bbl crude. Some of that will be with longhaul NEOs. The collapse in crude prices hasn't happened and to be blunt the A346s are tough at even a cheap $50/bbl (about as low as oil will go before oil fields are idled).

IMHO LH has already laid the groundwork to replace their A346s early with 748Is, A380s, and some A330s. We need to see such planning from IB.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 61):
2. I think Iberia is trying to do that...

Too slow. They must speed up the rationalization. There isn't just getting it right, but doing it fast enough to matter.

SLOW=DEAD

Quoting dcajet (Reply 61):
3. East of Spain - do you mean Italy, the Levant, Greece, China? Turkey? Russia?

I meant long haul and wrote that poorly. I mean India, China,Russia and possibly other Asian nations. IB should be taking advantage of their incredible South American feed to connect passengers onward or else others will do it for them.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 61):
4. AA improved its customer experience? Sorry but I need to laugh here, no offense

Before 2012 I would have laughed too. In 2012, my customer service experience on AA has been wonderful.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 61):
the 330/340 combo should do well.

Outside of hot/high,    A well managed airline like EK has fuel at 40% of their expenses. There just isn't any profit left with the A340s. Once the 787s are no longer grounded, much of the hubbing IB does on routes competing with LAN/TAN will be taken care of directly. (Or at least enough of the J class demand.)

Quoting dcajet (Reply 61):
Have you seen the new IB Business class cabin that made its debut last week at FITUR? Far superior to what LAN has installed on their 787s.

I'm sure it is a great hard product. Now get IB's 'soft product' to match their prices. What I've found is people are picky until their boss says 'fly the cheaper J or coach' and then they suddenly do not care so much about the seat.

IB is losing market share and money too quickly. Even the Spanish economy doesn't explain their woes relative to some peers. Even this reorganization isn't enough to compete long term as noted by LHRflyer. While South America is hurting, somehow LAN/TAM are doing ok while:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 68):
Worringly, Iberia's revenue is falling faster than the cuts in capacity and cargo, seen as a indicator of future passenger trends, is down by 17%.

Gasp...

BA's tepid growth is masking IB's drop. But its only 10% drop in passengers... only...

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 67):
Suspect this is going to get messy, the Unions will figure they have nothing to lose

They have everything to lose as you implied by wondering if they will see the year out. I do not think they are in that bad of shape.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6120 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 68):
Worringly, Iberia's revenue is falling faster than the cuts in capacity and cargo, seen as a indicator of future passenger trends, is down by 17%.

Iberia Express is not doing better. Although there is no previous stats to compare ( IB Express has only one year in the market ), the managers admitted they expected a higher number of pax for 2012, and the reality was 8 % under that expectations. Not surprising considering the branding problems that IB is facing.


http://economia.elpais.com/economia/...06/agencias/1360151097_572976.html

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6028 times:

Just on the news: 15 days strike, 18-22 February, 4-8 March, 18-22 March. This is what I call "caring for the passenger".


A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 72, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5966 times:

Quoting spantax (Reply 71):
Just on the news: 15 days strike, 18-22 February, 4-8 March, 18-22 March.

Yep... certainly fighting the fire with fuel. When I started this thread I thought that " no less than 5 days of strike" could be called a "sensationalist title" for some people here... now they go for 15 days of strike...  Wow!

I understand at some degree the worker's dilemma ( strike = kill the airline and get jobless / don't strike = get jobless anyway ), but I really feel sorry for the thousands of passenger that will be the first casualties in this war....

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1119 posts, RR: 5
Reply 73, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5961 times:

I just read the article, totally crazy...

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1360158688_840644.html

I can only imagine what insane chaos this will create. Dreadful really for all parties involved, the owner, IAG, the employees, and the passengers.

IAG should be very clear with its employee unions: "the sole purpose of our existence is to maximize the wealth of our shareholders, within the guidelines of all appropriate regulations and agreements. We believe our measures will maximize the wealth of our shareholders and can be executed within the parameters of all relevant laws and agreements."

Why not just negotiate based on that statement? All cards on the table, chips fall where they may...


User currently offlineacelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5885 times:

Not going to improve forward passinger bookings with Iberia then... just wonder where it will all end.


from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5889 times:

Quoting spantax (Reply 71):

Nice way to cut your own throat.

Adios Iberia!



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 76, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5753 times:
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Quoting spantax (Reply 71):
Just on the news: 15 days strike, 18-22 February, 4-8 March, 18-22 March. This is what I call "caring for the passenger".

That's NUCLEAR! In my prior posts, I thought it would be 5 days of strikes. Not 5 days in February, 5 in the start of March, and 5 more just to ensure March sucks for IB's passengers.

What is the risk of wildcat strikes? This is bad...

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 73):
Why not just negotiate based on that statement? All cards on the table, chips fall where they may...

IAG must cut staff. So the unions would still strike because... they could.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 72):
When I started this thread I thought that " no less than 5 days of strike" could be called a "sensationalist title" for some people here... now they go for 15 days of strike...

I don't think any of us thought they would go that far.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6467 posts, RR: 32
Reply 77, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5841 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 76):
That's NUCLEAR! In my prior posts, I thought it would be 5 days of strikes. Not 5 days in February, 5 in the start of March, and 5 more just to ensure March sucks for IB's passengers.

This is dangerous brinkmanship:

IB won´t survive this. The costs of acommodating those passengers, plus the revenue lost since as of now reasonable people won´t book IB, and not only for those days, constitutes an unsurvivable cash haemorraghe.

I find it also hard to believe thta the government has the political capital to invtervene in this, with the political crisis they are going through now.

I guess the ball is in IAG´s court now.


User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5801 times:

Why they don't close down Iberia and create a "new" Iberia the next day? Didn't Swissair and Sabena do that? I don't know many details about the situation of that companies before their closure...


So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 79, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5735 times:

Total insanity.

When IAG management says they will do something they will do it. If they say industrial action by the unions will accelerate the shrinking of Iberia they mean it.

I suspect we will know of IAG's intentions by the end of the month.


User currently offlineFreshSide3 From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5723 times:
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You would think, with the demise of Spanair, last year, IB would be doing well financially.

User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5714 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 79):
I suspect we will know of IAG's intentions by the end of the month.

I don't know exactly, what do you mean?



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 82, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5704 times:

Quoting mfc (Reply 81):
I don't know exactly, what do you mean?

IAG said last year when the restructuring was announced that the cash burn in Iberia must be stopped. One reason for this is that IAG has to review the value of its investment in Iberia for the financial year ended 31 December and if the cash burn detoriates IAG would have to write down the value of its investment in Iberia and take a financial charge in its accounts.

IAG made it clear yesterday that it would pursue action without union agreement to return Iberia to a cash flow neutral position by the middle of the year so they will not waste any time and I expect they will want clarity before IAG publishes its financial results for 2012 at the end of this month so they can reassure the market that the situation at Iberia is under control.


User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 83, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5655 times:

Quoting mfc (Reply 78):
Why they don't close down Iberia and create a "new" Iberia the next day? Didn't Swissair and Sabena do that? I don't know many details about the situation of that companies before their closure...


Very interesting point. Perhaps somebody could enlighten us about these two cases in the framework of Iberia. Personally I wouldn't be shocked if this happens. Iberia has always been a kind of Francoist company: privileges for the personnel, endogamy, inefficiency, inflation of managers, promoting the inflation of unused-absurd airports all over the country, submissiveness of the State to the desires of the company (last example: T-4 in Barajas, a totally unnecesary operation that helped so much to the dire financial situation of AENA, the Spanish aviation authority, with a debt of around 15 billion EUR; somebody calculated that, if everything goes well, AENA could repay its debt in around 700 (sic) years). And as said before, even after the collapse of Spanair they were unable to take advantage of the situation to grow or to gain market.



A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2742 posts, RR: 1
Reply 84, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5453 times:

Quoting dcajet (Reply 61):

And why would LAN 787 spell disaster for IB? Not sure I follow the logic.

LAN-TAM are a limited threat today, but the biggest threat lies in their future expansion potential. IB would then be competing with a handful of A346's and A333's against a swarm of 787's (don't forget AV-TA will join the party too). Not a great future fleet strategy. It would help if IAG management promised employees a future 787/A350 order for IB, thereby giving them the hope that IB is long-term viable, which is something they have lost faith in today.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 70):
Iberia Express is not doing better. Although there is no previous stats to compare ( IB Express has only one year in the market ), the managers admitted they expected a higher number of pax for 2012, and the reality was 8 % under that expectations.

Not a surprise given that the expansion of the IB Express fleet has been blocked by a court. He does claim in a vague way that I2 has met its "financial objectives", whatever those are (but I assume it is too early to know if IBS is profitable). In any case, it is clear that IB short-haul can only survive in the form of I2 or VY. LH with 4U and AF with HOP are doing the same thing.

Quoting spantax (Reply 83):
even after the collapse of Spanair they were unable to take advantage of the situation to grow or to gain market.

They did : through VY which is growing and thriving at BCN. But I agree IB mainline short-haul was unable to take advantage due to its high cost base.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 85, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5385 times:
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Quoting AR385 (Reply 77):
IB won´t survive this.

They could. Its just a question of how large an IB.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 77):
I guess the ball is in IAG´s court now.

It is in the unions and IAGs court. Either could sink the company. IAG if that is the best ROI. The unions out of spite.
It really sounds like IAG has given IAG targets to meet with no choice but to meet them:
“It’s the responsibility of the management at Iberia to do it and they’re the people that are managing the negotiations with the trade unions,” he said in an interview at the annual Business Travel Show in London. “They’re the people responsible for implementing the change, so they will continue to do it.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...in-in-taking-on-iberia-unions.html

To me this implies that IB management is about to get a haircut too. Either get in line with IAG's cost cutting or find a new position. Unfortunately, that is how it must be in this environment.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 79):
Total insanity.

When IAG management says they will do something they will do it. If they say industrial action by the unions will accelerate the shrinking of Iberia they mean it.

   I hope IAG is very rational in their additional cuts. However, as already noted, it is their choice.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 84):
It would help if IAG management promised employees a future 787/A350 order for IB, thereby giving them the hope that IB is long-term viable, which is something they have lost faith in today.

Agreed. But before buying, the cost structure must be brought into line. IB is simply bleeding cash faster than IAG could invest.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 84):
LAN-TAM are a limited threat today, but the biggest threat lies in their future expansion potential.

   Well said.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5340 times:

Quoting spantax (Reply 83):
last example: T-4 in Barajas, a totally unnecesary operation

T-4 at Barajas is not unnecessary, Madrid Airport would have been saturated if T-4 hasn't been built. Iberia needed a hub style terminal, and now T-4 is where IAG can grow. There are no problems with MAD, BCN, PMI or ALC, where you can recover the money invested because they have enough traffic. The problem is with several regional airports like León, Santiago, Sevilla, Vigo and many more, that have been extended without necessity, just for political reasons.



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlinePlunaCRJ From Uruguay, joined Nov 2007, 574 posts, RR: 2
Reply 87, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5297 times:

Quoting spantax (Reply 71):

Just on the news: 15 days strike, 18-22 February, 4-8 March, 18-22 March. This is what I call "caring for the passenger".

Is this still on? I just tried a dummy booking for February 22, and the flight appears as bookable. I would have thought that with a strike planned for these dates, IB wouldn´t continue to sell tickets on the affected flights.

Also, at least at first sight, I can´t find any reference to the strike on IB.com

Regards,


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 88, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 87):
Is this still on? I just tried a dummy booking for February 22, and the flight appears as bookable. I would have thought that with a strike planned for these dates, IB wouldn´t continue to sell tickets on the affected flights.

Also, at least at first sight, I can´t find any reference to the strike on IB.com

I doubt the IB management will allow any change in the website or booking system that can affect the sales. The Spanish newspapers and TV networks are giving enough warnings to the people who will travel those days.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5208 times:

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 87):

Affected flights are to be announced. They have to arrange several things, once it is done, they will post the information on the website and will inform the passengers via e-mail, phone, social networks...

Iberia said this via twitter yesterday:

"Hemos recibido la notificación oficial de próximas jornadas de huelga convocadas por los sindicatos. Las fechas se indican a continuación: del 18 al 22 de febrero, ambos incluidos; Del 4 al 8 de marzo, ambos incluidos; Del 18 al 22 de marzo, ambos incluidos. Hasta no conocer los servicios mínimos, no sabemos que vuelos serán afectados. Tan pronto se conozcan, ofreceremos las mejores alternativas a los clientes afectados. Agradecemos vuestra paciencia."

In English (Google Translator):

"We have received official notification of next days of strike called by unions. Dates below: from 18 to 22 February inclusive; 4 to March 8, inclusive, from 18 to 22 March, inclusive. Until knowing minimum services, we don't know what flights will be affected. As soon as we know, we will offer the best alternatives to affected customers. We appreciate your patience."



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6467 posts, RR: 32
Reply 90, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5153 times:
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Quoting r2rho (Reply 84):
LAN-TAM are a limited threat today, but the biggest threat lies in their future expansion potential. IB would then be competing with a handful of A346's and A333's against a swarm of 787's (don't forget AV-TA will join the party too). Not a great future fleet strategy. It would help if IAG management promised employees a future 787/A350 order for IB,

Don´t forget AM. AM will have a swarm of 787s too, and more than likely, they will have more frequencies on MEX-MAD, start MTY-MAD, GDL-MAD, CUN-MAD and restart MEX-BCN. While not a threat (yet) to its global Latin network, it will be in Spain-Mexico which is one of the most important IB destinations.


User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4876 times:

Announcement made today:
http://grupo.iberia.es/portal/site/g...60429cc310VgnVCM20000060fe15acRCRD



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 92, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4764 times:

Quoting mfc (Reply 91):
Announcement made today:

Interesting that they are offering to return the money to every one who want. It will be very nice to know what proportion of the people who bought tickets for that time frame will choose that option ( I probably will !! )

Thanks for the update.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4687 times:

Quoting mfc (Reply 78):
Why they don't close down Iberia and create a "new" Iberia the next day? Didn't Swissair and Sabena do that? I don't know many details about the situation of that companies before their closure...

If they close it down, then IAG will loses everything it has invested in IB. Furthermore, it's questionable if the Spanish government can replace IB by a "new IB". Both Sabena and Swissair didn't have domestic competitors which are in the same business. IB does however has UX, which will block any "new IB" unless it gets something in return (which automatically means the "new IB" will be less attractive for investors). Finally, this strategy remains a very dangerous route.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 90):

Don´t forget AM. AM will have a swarm of 787s too,

So will UX (though they won't start getting them until 2015).


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Reply 94, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4530 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 84):

Quoting dcajet (Reply 61):

And why would LAN 787 spell disaster for IB? Not sure I follow the logic.

LAN-TAM are a limited threat today, but the biggest threat lies in their future expansion potential. IB would then be competing with a handful of A346's and A333's against a swarm of 787's

Also remember that TAM is the launch customer for the A-350-900 in Latin America. LATAM Airlines has 27 A-350s, 4 B77Ws and 4 B763s on order, (plus 29 B-787s).


User currently offlineenginebird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4472 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 69):
Nothing with Seattle. You'll find I'm not A vs. B. What I mean is dump the A340s that are not on profitable routes and quickly replace them with aircraft that can be profitable at $96/bbl crude. Some of that will be with longhaul NEOs. The collapse in crude prices hasn't happened and to be blunt the A346s are tough at even a cheap $50/bbl (about as low as oil will go before oil fields are idled).

IBs main problem are not the A346s, which are used profitably by other airlines such as LH, even at 100$/bbl. IBs problems are, among many other things, a terrible reputation, unbelievably bad customer service, a sub-par on-board product, the often unenthusiastic cabin crew and high personnel costs.

Best example is a recent flight SCL-MAD in October 2012: The only other airlines offering SCL-Europe, i.e. LA and AF, were fully booked and so I was forced to take IB. The overall experience was bad and it was no surprise that IB could not even fill half of the seats of the A343 used that day, while IB's competitors' planes were full. A half empty A34x is not much worse than a half empty B777.


User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4360 times:

Breaking: IAG announces 3 807 layoffs in Iberia (19% of the workforce) according to newspaper El País.


A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 97, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4340 times:

This is confirmed in the IAG press release. As I said above, IAG do not bluff!

http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zht...-newsArticle&ID=1784018&highlight=

Quote:
IAG UPDATE ON IBERIA TRANSFORMATION PLAN

International Airlines Group announces that Iberia has today informed its employees, trade unions and the Spanish Employment Ministry that it has started the formal process of collective redundancy. 3,807 jobs in the airline are affected. There will now be a 30 day consultation process.

This is part of Iberia's transformation plan to introduce permanent structural changes across the airline to stem its losses enabling it to grow profitably in the future.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 98, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4282 times:

Quoting spantax (Reply 96):
Breaking: IAG announces 3 807 layoffs in Iberia (19% of the workforce)
Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 97):
This is confirmed in the IAG press release. As I said above, IAG do not bluff!

Ufff !!! Certainly this is not going to stop the strikes.... I wonder how the unions will react to this...but definitely I will not be very calm if I had a flight booked with IB this days...

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 99, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4234 times:

Link in Spanish.

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1360670779_897922.html



A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6467 posts, RR: 32
Reply 100, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4058 times:
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SEPLA has just announced they are joining the strike.

User currently offlineacelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3799 times:

Where does/will this leave Iberia Express i wonder....


from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13439 posts, RR: 100
Reply 102, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3884 times:
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Quoting enginebird (Reply 95):
IBs main problem are not the A346s, which are used profitably by other airlines such as LH,

LH has unusually high premium markets *and* unusually efficient maintenance operations. They would still make more money with a twin long haul airframe than the A346. That isn't IB's main problem, but I simply do not see them being profitable without a fleet rationalization too.

With IB's service reputation, they must become a very low cost provider.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 97):
As I said above, IAG do not bluff!

Did anyone think they were bluffing?

IB's costs must be brought in line with revenue.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 98):
Certainly this is not going to stop the strikes....

Then their might need to be another round.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 103, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3755 times:

(Sorry, but for me it is almost impossible to post in a thread concerning Iberia without falling in the classical A.net bestseller "Bashing Iberia")

It is 18.30 CET of February 13, the first round of strikes begins on February 18 (and I am one of the prospective f***** passengers...). Until now no explanation on IB website, no message in my email, no SMS, "we know anything yet" as I phoned their calling centre a couple of hours ago. They should consider that if a passenger can't fly, usually he has to do some/a lot of changes to his agenda and plans.

Maybe it is anecdotical, but I can't find right now a better example of the need to axe a lot of people at Iberia.



A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2899 posts, RR: 2
Reply 104, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3726 times:

Quoting spantax (Reply 103):
Maybe it is anecdotical, but I can't find right now a better example of the need to axe a lot of people at Iberia.

It seems to me that your example calls, mainly, for axing the management, not the front-line workers...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinefilLPA From Spain, joined Mar 2009, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 105, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3660 times:

Quoting spantax (Reply 103):
Until now no explanation on IB website, no message in my email, no SMS, "we know anything yet" as I phoned their calling centre a couple of hours ago. They should consider that if a passenger can't fly, usually he has to do some/a lot of changes to his agenda and plans.

The problem is that before they can organise their new schedules, they first have to receive from the "Ministry" the list of minimum services (in percentage) set by the Spanish Government. They are divided into four blocks: flights between spanish mainland cities, flights between the islands & autonomous cities and mainland Spain, medium-haul flights, and long-haul flights.

Once they receive the info, they will be able to publish the cancelled flights.

And the other thing is that even though, Iberia Express isn´t going to strike....their flights will also be affected due to that their ground and maintenance staff belongs to Iberia  http://blog.iberiaexpress.com/iberia-staff-strikes/


User currently offlinefilLPA From Spain, joined Mar 2009, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3655 times:

El Mundo newspaper just published the following:

The Ministry has informed Iberia, his strike committee and Aena, minimum services for the strikes from 18 to 22 February and from 4 to 8 March and 18 to 22 of this month.

Minimum services include both flights operated by Iberia itself as flights of other airlines that are assisted (ground staff and maintenance services) by the airline.

These minimum services are:

- All services with a scheduled departure time before the start of the strike and whose arrival is scheduled during the period of strike.

- 100% of the services of each airline on each route between mainland Spain with Canary and Balearic Islands, between all islands and between mainland Spain and Melilla.

- 50% of the services of each airline on each route between peninsular Spanish cities where alternative use of public transport takes a distance of 500 km or more with travel time of more than 5 hours.

- 25% of the services of each airline on each route between peninsular Spanish cities where alternative use of public transport takes a distance of less than 500 km or a travel time of less than 5 hours.

- 50% of the services of each airline on each route between Spanish and foreign cities.

- Those operations and other positioning techniques such as, crew positioning, necessary for the effective conduct of air transport services considered essential, and for scheduled flights on the next day of the strike.

- Ensuring sufficient capacity in deicing services to meet all essential utilities.


link only in spanish http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/02/13/economia/1360782840.html


User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3552 times:

This document has been published recently (only in Spanish):

http://estaticos.elmundo.es/documentos/2013/02/13/iberia.pdf

The situation of Iberia and the transformation plan are explained very clearly. The document is endorsed by PwC, which gives authenticity.

You can also see the article here:

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/0...056b858cdbd46&t=1360796648&numero=

[Edited 2013-02-13 15:05:03]


So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 108, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

Quoting filLPA (Reply 106):
The Ministry has informed Iberia, his strike committee and Aena, minimum services for the strikes from 18 to 22 February and from 4 to 8 March and 18 to 22 of this month.

Please excuse my ignorance, and this ( probably stupid ) question.... What can the airline ( or the authorities, or the Government ) do in order to comply with this minimum services, if there are no ground services, or pilots, or cabin crews ??

What happens if the airline fails to comply with this minimum services ??

Thanks in advance for your info.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 109, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

UPDATE ( From the official website of Iberia ) :

For those with flights booked on IB, here are the Lists of flights cancelled ( almost 500 flights total, sorted by date )


http://www.iberia.com/ibcomv3/content/COMUN/PDF/XX_18_FEB.pdf

http://www.iberia.com/ibcomv3/content/COMUN/PDF/XX_19_FEB.pdf

http://www.iberia.com/ibcomv3/content/COMUN/PDF/XX_20_FEB.pdf

http://www.iberia.com/ibcomv3/content/COMUN/PDF/XX_21_FEB.pdf

http://www.iberia.com/ibcomv3/content/COMUN/PDF/XX_22_FEB.pdf

And here are the flights of Iberia Regional / Air Nostrum / Iberia Express :

http://www.iberia.com/ibcomv3/content/COMUN/PDF/XX_YW_18_22.pdf

http://www.iberia.com/ibcomv3/content/COMUN/PDF/XX_I2_18_22.pdf

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 662 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 108):

Please excuse my ignorance, and this ( probably stupid ) question.... What can the airline ( or the authorities, or the Government ) do in order to comply with this minimum services, if there are no ground services, or pilots, or cabin crews ??

What happens if the airline fails to comply with this minimum services ??

Nothing, but if they don't staff the minimum flights, the government will sue the unions and they will have to pay the compensation to IB and the affected passengers. This has just happened with a past Madrid Metro strike. So I'm quite sure the unions will try to comply with the minimum services.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6467 posts, RR: 32
Reply 111, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3227 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

There´s a MAD-EZE cancelled for the 5 days. Ouch!
MAD-MEX is cancelled for 3 days.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2742 posts, RR: 1
Reply 112, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3129 times:

Quoting mfc (Reply 107):
This document has been published recently (only in Spanish):

http://estaticos.elmundo.es/documentos/2013/02/13/iberia.pdf

The situation of Iberia and the transformation plan are explained very clearly. The document is endorsed by PwC, which gives authenticity.

You can also see the article here:

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/0...mero=

This is exactly the PR response from IAG management that I had been asking for. Note that the article also links to the widely spread (staff-created?) document which started all the BA wants to shut down IB rumors. I'll take some time to look over it.

Quoting realsim (Reply 110):
What happens if the airline fails to comply with this minimum services ??

Nothing, but if they don't staff the minimum flights, the government will sue the unions and they will have to pay the compensation to IB and the affected passengers.

The minimum services rules make a lot of sense and would be quite useful for example this week at HAM which is all but shut down due to a security personnel strike. But does this really get applied or does it happen only "on paper"?


User currently onlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2899 posts, RR: 2
Reply 113, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 112):
But does this really get applied or does it happen only "on paper"?

In general it does get applied, although maybe not exactly 100%.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinespantax From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 323 posts, RR: 1
Reply 114, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2933 times:

Breaking: another 807 flights by Air Nostrum, Vueling, Iberia Express cancelled next week. New A330 for IB landed in Madrid. IAG up in Madrid stockmarket.

BTW, I was wondering: before the strike Iberia was losing 1,7 EUR million per day. Next week this amount should be less (no taxes at airports, not fuel, not paying salaries for strikers...) or more (rerouting, hotels, etc.)?



A300.10.19.20.21.30.40,AN26,ATR42,AVR146,B717.27.37.47.57.77,B1900,C130,C212,CH47,CRJ200.700,DC9,DHC4,ERJ135.190,F27
User currently offlinebongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3658 posts, RR: 3
Reply 115, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2863 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):
Well, as I´ve written before. The IAG case is different as the IB employees have really nothing to loose. It´s the same for them if IB disappears or if it stays

Are you saying that the Spanish state will pay unemployment benefit in excess of their present wages ?

Quoting dcajet (Reply 60):
The job mobility that we enjoy here in the US, is something very unique to our way of life and economic system. In most other countries it is not that easy to jump from job to job

it could be claimed that the US job mobility is a direct result of job insecurity and not something to be enjoyed. Its only easy to jump from job to job, if someone has been removed to create a vacancy


User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2181 posts, RR: 7
Reply 116, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2760 times:

Noticed that, for example, all of IB's flights between LHR and MAD cancelled during the strikes. What will happen with the BA flights, given that IB handle BA at MAD?

User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 117, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2629 times:

Quoting spantax (Reply 114):
Breaking: another 807 flights by Air Nostrum, Vueling, Iberia Express cancelled next week.

Yep... the list of affected flights for each airline can be found here :

http://vuelingnews.com/category/ultima-hora/
http://www.airnostrum.es/noticia_detalle.asp?id_noticia=359
http://blog.iberiaexpress.com/huelga-iberia-18-22-febrero-2013/

About the BA flights to MAD, If I was in charge of BA, I wouldn't schedule any flight to a destination where the handling is provided by IB workers....there is a very big chance of having a stuck plane at the end of the day....

Rgds.
G.

[Edited 2013-02-15 14:00:58]


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinereifel From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 1380 posts, RR: 1
Reply 118, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2585 times:

There is one thing I don't get. Why does this affect Vueling? I thought Vueling - although realted to IAG - had own staff and where not part of the dispute?
Anyway, Vueling cancels a big bunch as well:
http://www.vueling.com/huelga.html

And they're very mean on rebooking:
http://vuelingnews.com/category/ultima-hora/
You may only transfer free of charge to the next avalable flgiht. Transfer to any other Vueling flight you need to pay the fare difference! This is insane...


User currently offlineacelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 119, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2448 times:

Certainly agree about Vueling, so many cancelled plus insane rule for rebooking. Would make me think twice about using them again if I had to pay more...


from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2181 posts, RR: 7
Reply 120, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2323 times:

The concern I have is that my flight on 21st Feb LHR-MAD is the BA462 at 15:25, and it doesnt show up on BA's booking or the KVS availability tool..yet on the BA website it's still showing as operating.

BA 464 LHR 12:30 MAD 15:50 320 C0 D0 R0 I0 Y0 B0 H0 K0 M0 L0 V0 Q0 S0 G0 J0 N0 O0
BA 460 LHR 14:15 MAD 17:35 320 C0 D0 R0 I0 Y0 B0 H0 K0 M0 L0 V0 Q0 S0 G0 J0 N0 O0
BA/IB 516 LHR 15:00 MAD 18:35 321 C3 D0 R0 I0 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 L9 V0 Q0 S0 G0 J7 N0 O0
BA/IB 522 LHR 18:40 MAD 22:10 333 C9 D0 R0 I9 Y9 B0 H0 K0 M0 L0 V0 Q0 S9 G0 J9 N0 O0


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2742 posts, RR: 1
Reply 121, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2315 times:

Quoting reifel (Reply 118):
There is one thing I don't get. Why does this affect Vueling? I thought Vueling - although realted to IAG - had own staff and where not part of the dispute?

Neither VY nor IB Express are part of the disputes, but many of their flights are handled by IB ground staff, which are. So indirectly they are affected too.

Quoting reifel (Reply 118):
You may only transfer free of charge to the next avalable flgiht. Transfer to any other Vueling flight you need to pay the fare difference! This is insane...

Exact same thing that AF offered me after the strike that shut down HAM, so no big difference there. Often it is better to get the full refund and just buy the alternative flight yourself.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 122, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2277 times:

Quoting BA777 (Reply 120):
The concern I have is that my flight on 21st Feb LHR-MAD is the BA462 at 15:25, and it doesnt show up on BA's booking or the KVS availability tool..yet on the BA website it's still showing as operating.

I definitely don't want to be the carrier of bad news for you, but I will be really worried if I have to take a flight with destination in an airport where the handling workers will be on strike....the chances of the flight being cancelled are high, unless BA could arrange and ensure a handling service for the aircraft with a different provider. I humbly recommend to you to search for a much "harder" answer from BA, and to have a "plan B" just in case, specially in the case that the motive or reasons for the date of your flight(s) can not be modified.

Just my thought...

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinedcajet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 123, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2135 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 111):

There´s a MAD-EZE cancelled for the 5 days. Ouch!
MAD-MEX is cancelled for 3 days.

That is because EZE has twice daily service, while MEX has two flights on some days, and just one on others. It is perfectly in compliance with "servicios minimos" which in the case of EZE and MEX is 50% of the scheduled services MUST be operated.

Regards,



"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlinedcajet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 124, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2124 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 108):
Please excuse my ignorance, and this ( probably stupid ) question.... What can the airline ( or the authorities, or the Government ) do in order to comply with this minimum services, if there are no ground services, or pilots, or cabin crews ??

What happens if the airline fails to comply with this minimum services ??

Thanks in advance for your info.

It is the law of the land. Simple as that. All striking unions must comply with "servicios minimos". Not compliance with it means any of the above parties are breaking the law and civil and/or criminal penalties may apply as prescribed in Spain's "Derecho Laboral".

As per Spain's Constitution:

Quote:
1. La Constitución Española reconoce en su art. 28.2 el derecho de huelga como un derecho fundamental, en los siguientes términos: «Se reconoce el derecho a la huelga de los trabajadores para la defensa de sus intereses. La ley que regule el ejercicio de este derecho establecerá las garantías precisas para asegurar el mantenimiento de los servicios esenciales de la comunidad».


[Edited 2013-02-16 12:11:46]


"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 125, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

Quoting dcajet (Reply 124):
As per Spain's Constitution:

Thank you. I have a "problem" with the part of the article where it talks about "the essential services for the community". I could understand that the Hospitals, Police Forces, firefighters or even the public transport in a city ( subway, bus ), can be included under that category. Even some flights to the Islands where there are no other ways of transport. But for the other places where you can find alternative services ( train, car, bus, other airlines ), I can't see why the IB service could be considered as "essential"....

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinedcajet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 126, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2004 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 125):
I have a "problem" with the part of the article where it talks about "the essential services for the community". I could understand that the Hospitals, Police Forces, firefighters or even the public transport in a city ( subway, bus ), can be included under that category. Even some flights to the Islands where there are no other ways of transport. But for the other places where you can find alternative services ( train, car, bus, other airlines ), I can't see why the IB service could be considered as "essential"....

Hence the different levels of essential service: places like Canarias, Baleares and Ceuta and Melilla are immune to the effects of a strike as they are dependent on Iberia to provide a lifeline to these otherwise isolated parts of the kingdom. I do suppose that Spain's lawmakers had a reason to do legislate that way - and it is consistent with EU's norms, btw,

Now, and please forgive me for pointing this out - no offense to you - but I struggle with your position. On the one hand you blast Iberia's unions for striking yet you have an issue with Spain's laws that regulate the depth and reach of strikes. What gives?

Regards from San Francisco.



"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 127, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2001 times:

Quoting dcajet (Reply 126):
Now, and please forgive me for pointing this out - no offense to you - but I struggle with your position. On the one hand you blast Iberia's unions for striking yet you have an issue with Spain's laws that regulate the depth and reach of strikes. What gives?

Regards from San Francisco.

Hahaha don't worry, I can see why you have that feeling. I was very critical against the IB unions not for the strike itself, but more for the extension of the strike. A strike to fix a clear standpoint in front of the counterpart is understandable. A strike that can kill the whole airline is like shooting your self in the head to avoid a headache.
And regarding the "essential services", I understand that can be real for the islands, but I think a flight MAD-EZE or MAD-MEX is not, since the people affected could be transported ( IB paying the bill ) with the use of other options ( re-routing in other carriers via CDG, or FCO, or AMS ). Declaring this flights as "essential" ( even a 50 % of the frequencies ), is a little exaggerated IMO. But luckily I'm not a lawmaker !!!!!    

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 128, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1731 times:

Here are the phone numbers for the people who had tickets for flights affected by the strike :

IBERIA & AIR NOSTRUM : 900 100 480 // 902 400 500

VUELING : 902 808 009

IB EXPRESS : 902 100 424


*** People with tickets provided by travel agencies should contact with the travel agency, not this numbers. ***

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinereifel From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 1380 posts, RR: 1
Reply 129, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1664 times:

Aparentely a few other airlines handled by Iberia are affected as well,
i.e. LH cancelled their flights from MUC and FRA to BIO today, as IB handles LH at BIO.


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