LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22219 posts, RR: 51 Reply 1, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16988 times:
Its hardly a secret - AA has a large pool of 777 options/purchase rights, and has been slowly exercising them.
Related, AA just filed with the court that it expect to sell two upcoming deliveries to Guggenheim.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 19236 posts, RR: 63 Reply 3, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 16821 times:
The very first line of the linked article states, "American Airlines has increased its order for Boeing 777-300ERs to 20, says chairman and chief executive Tom Horton."
cornutt From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 226 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16132 times:
It does also say, though, that AA hasn't disclosed how many are firm orders and how many are options. Previously AA held 13 firm orders and two options. Presumably the two existing options are being converted; those might be the two that LAXIntl mentioned. As a wild guess, I'll guess that the new order is 2 firm and 3 options.
777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3054 posts, RR: 3 Reply 6, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16070 times:
Quoting cornutt (Reply 5): Previously AA held 13 firm orders and two options. Presumably the two existing options are being converted; those might be the two that LAXIntl mentioned. As a wild guess, I'll guess that the new order is 2 firm and 3 options.
That's how I read it. 13 orders, two options firmed up, for a total of 15 orders, plus 5 new orders/options, the specific allocation of which isn't clear.
crAAzy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 591 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15047 times:
Wasn't there a recent thread about a big Boeing 777 and 737 order? (15 777s and 30 737s)
I think it said the 737 and 777s were ordered by different carriers but many thought the 777 order was from an Asian carrier. My guess is that this was AA's order with 5 firm and options for an additional 10.
On a related note does anyone think the more 77Ws AA orders the less chance AA's 787-9 are goint to have F
BlueLine From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 72 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 14855 times:
Quoting crAAzy (Reply 7): On a related note does anyone think the more 77Ws AA orders the less chance AA's 787-9 are goint to have F
The 789's will have first, as I think they would be deployed on thinner ULH routes, or to increase frequency on long routes. The 788's on the other hand, I can see in two configurations. One with a few F seats for higher yielding and longer routes and one without for routes the 763 currently flies.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7407 posts, RR: 7 Reply 9, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 14507 times:
5 more is just "5 more" AA will probably get 20 More. If AA does get 35 or 40 77W I hope AA expands the route map beyond where they currebtly fly, many will be used to Heathrow and Tokyo with Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires. Hong Kong, Johannesburg and Dubai. Hey if Cathay can fly 8000 miles nonstop from JFK to HKG so can AA.
Jetsgo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2971 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11733 times:
I feel like a total n00b for asking this, but it's been bugging me for the past 10 years I've been on this site. What exactly does it mean someome orders 5 and "has options for an additional amount" ? I want to assume it's along the lines of a pre-negotiated price, but not 100% sure. Thanks.
Options are both pre-negotiated terms and a place holder on the order queue. So if a carrier orders 10 777s with 10 options, that means that the airline can order an additional 10 777s with the same terms as the initial 10.
The 10 options will also hold a place in the order queue. So if the carrier decides to exercise the options and convert them to a firm order, the order will not go at the end of the queue, the new order will simply attach to the initial order.
This is a good thing for a carrier that may be uncertain about their aircraft needs in the future. If a carrier wants to place an order for 20 777s, but is unsure whether they will need all 20, they can simply place a firm order for a smaller amount (say 10) and place options for the remaining amount (10). This way if 5-6 months down the road, they figure out that they will need the additional 10, they simply firm up the options. If they dont need them, then they cancel the options or simply let them "expire".
This saves them the hassle of placing a brand new order with new terms that will go at the end of the queue.
Darksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1011 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10564 times:
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 12):
Well done for "Old technology" when is Qantas going to pull its head out of the sand or grow a pair and order some?!
I would imagine that the 779X will be a good point for them to jump in to the 777 party.
Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
JAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1212 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10229 times:
Good heavens! AA intends on being a major player. These several orders are akin to UAL buying the 744 several years ago.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 19236 posts, RR: 63 Reply 15, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10201 times:
Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 11): The 10 options will also hold a place in the order queue. So if the carrier decides to exercise the options and convert them to a firm order, the order will not go at the end of the queue, the new order will simply attach to the initial order.
Is the difference between an option and a 'purchase right' simply that the latter doesn't hold a place in line, or is there more to it? I often see all three referred to in an order—firm, options, and purchase rights.
CapEd388 From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 218 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10017 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15): Is the difference between an option and a 'purchase right' simply that the latter doesn't hold a place in line
Thats correct. At least thats how I understand it.
In terms of "seriousness of commitment" the order is as follows:
1. LOI / MoU - An agreement to place an order in the future at pre negotiated terms. No fee or payment attached and is very easy to cancel. Not a lot of specific details. This is not a commitment.
2. Purchase Rights - A specified amount of aircraft that the carrier has rights to order at a pre negotiated price. This is usually attached to a firm order. Does not hold a place in the queue and is fairly easy to cancel. No delivery date specified.
3. Options - A specified amount of aircraft that the carrier has rights to order at a pre negotiated price. This is usually attached to a firm order. Holds a place in the order line and have a delivery date. There is usually a fee or down payment attached to options that is refunded if the options are not exercised. Not so hard to cancel options.
4. Firm Order - A specified amount of aircraft that the carrier has ordered and are on the queue ready to get built. Comes with a specified delivery date. The carrier pays a non refundable down payment. It is a bit harder and more expensive to cancel a firm order.
qf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2604 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9666 times:
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 12): Well done for "Old technology" when is Qantas going to pull its head out of the sand or grow a pair and order some?!
What on earth does this have anything do with AA ordering more 77Ws? That said, QF pulled their head out of the sand back when they ordered A330s -- a mixture of 744s and 777s would have left them in a far worse state than the 744/A330 fleet they ended up with. A mixture of A330s, 77Ws, 744s and A380s would probably have been the end of the international division.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10867 posts, RR: 100 Reply 18, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9547 times:
Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 16): 2. Purchase Rights - A specified amount of aircraft that the carrier has rights to order at a pre negotiated price. This is usually attached to a firm order. Does not hold a place in the queue and is fairly easy to cancel. No delivery date specified.
True. But just to be clear, the price is somewhat variable based on various costs. For example, I now work for a vendor and our parts cost so many hours of labor charged at a rate that goes up with inflation plus we charge a multiple of the raw material cost.
This is true of most purchases with the price only truly being 'locked in' two years before delivery (or so...) when the costs are fixed.
They used to have a cost too... not so much anymore.
Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 16): It is a bit harder and more expensive to cancel a firm order.
Boeing and Airbus usually do a good job of differing. Actually cancelling a firm order has become rare. More often the order is differed until a different model is ordered. The deposit almost never leaves Boeing or Airbus.
Zkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4740 posts, RR: 10 Reply 20, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7863 times:
Quoting qf002 (Reply 17): What on earth does this have anything do with AA ordering more 77Ws? That said, QF pulled their head out of the sand back when they ordered A330s -- a mixture of 744s and 777s would have left them in a far worse state than the 744/A330 fleet they ended up with. A mixture of A330s, 77Ws, 744s and A380s would probably have been the end of the international division.
because QF is pretty much the only holdout in terms of 777s (LH being the other). The 744 fleet would be down to only the ERs is why and they would only be used for sub-Antarctic routes (JNB, SCL) and as fill ins. DFW could have been daily direct in both directions, AKL-LAX could have remained with the massive freight ability of the 77W. SFO could have remained (A330s can't reach it). YVR could have been added from SYD also. HKG-LHR would have been viable with the lower fuel costs and increased freight ability. SYD-LAX-JFK would be right sized with the 77W as would a daily BNE-LAX.
The Asian routes would have been the A330s domain as they are good at those shorter hops.
That is why QF should have/should still get the 777. Some of those routes could be 787 routes but its not as big.
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1581 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7649 times:
I think QF will bet on the A359/10 instead of the 77W, a much more modern big twin and with better economics. I think QF will go All Airbus with time. The 787 will probably be cancelled by QF they have a great opportunity now with the grounding.
AA likes old planes and the 77W will suit them fine in this role.
Indeed. Some would have us believe that the 777 is "past it" when the very fact of its massive backlog suggests otherwise. Suffice it to say that I agree with your posts.
Quoting sweair (Reply 21): AA likes old planes and the 77W will suit them fine in this role.
On what basis do you say that AA "likes old planes"? A quick look at another website suggests that the average age of their fleet is only 15 years with brand new 777s and 737s still to be delivered, as well as orders for both the A320neo and the 737MAX.
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1581 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6740 times:
Old as built in the 90´s. For airlines that have no prior 777s why not go for the new big twin, the A350?
25 817Dreamliiner: Because they want it as soon as possible maybe? Remember the A350 hasn't even flown yet, the 777 is already a proven airframe, so why not?
26 CXB77L: Of AA's current fleet of 50 777s, 11 were built and made its first flight before 2000. 39 out of 50 - 78% of the fleet - were built post-2000. Of the
27 jfk777: The way this info is presented is a bit confusing, AA had 74 737-800 by the time they stopped deliveries after 9/11. The next 738's didn't srrive unt
29 miaami: The 767-300s are going tech quite often and I think thats why they moved up the 787 deliveries. The additional 777-300 orders may help speed up the re
30 brilondon: Is that a surprise? They will probably lease them back since they already lease some of their aircraft from Guggenheim. So the way I understand it is
31 cornutt: I have to admit this surprises me... AA did have a pretty old fleet. I recall flying on a lot of their Super 80s, and it seems like not that long ago
32 na: Which planes are being replaced by those 77Ws?
33 american 767: Does that mean the additional 77Ws will free up some more 772s to be assigned on routes currently flown with 763 equipment? Because if that is the ca
34 Revelation: Let's hope that turns out to be a change for the better!
35 sweair: Yes there is no way around that fact, the 77W is 90´s technology the A350-1000 is about 16 years more modern. I think the 77W is heading for a hard
36 incitatus: Problem is the A350-1000 is not here, even though you talk like it is. Project delays and problems with the A380 and the 787 have demonstrated that t
37 sweair: Well if an Airline puts an order today why choose the more than decade old option, the 777-X is about 7 or 8 years away. Same with A332 vs 788 why ord
38 Polot: So how many airlines are expected to take delivery of the A350-1000 this year? There is only one aircraft from A or B newer than the 777 flying in se
39 sweair: Well if you are an airline that need new frames 5 or 6 years from now, most orders are well in advance.. If you have no current 777 in your fleet as w
40 Polot: Why do you think that AA wants these planes 5 or 6 years from now? AA has plans to have 10 77Ws by the end this year (that is about 2/3rd of its curr
41 sweair: I wasn't specific about AA, the subject seems to de rail earlier sorry. I was talking in general.
42 817Dreamliiner: Well if the 777X was on offer airlines would order it, but it not so they cant... Because they can get them faster than the A350-1000, just because i
43 brilondon: How do can you know that it will live longer in the market? It has not even been completed yet. The B77W has been in the air and I do like to fly it
44 777STL: I guess it never occurred to you that AA needed an aircraft ASAP and couldn't afford to wait around until 2017 or 2018 (whenever the first A350 deliv
45 Viscount724: AA still has around 180 MD-80s in service.
46 american 767: I think that those will be leaving the fleet as well, by the time the last few Super 80s leave in 2017 or 2018. Don't forget that the oldest 737 is o
47 SYDSpotter: Yep, that's why they bought the A320NEO and 737MAX
48 CXB77L: No. The programme that spawned the 777-300ER and 777-200LR was launched in 2000; and the 777-300ER only made its first flight in 2003. Because the A3
49 Deltal1011man: your looking at age when you should be looking at the engine. CFM56-7B drinks less fuel than the JT8D. Doesn't matter how old the M80 is.
50 Polot: Its not just that the 77W is your best best, it is your only bet considering Airbus no longer makes the A340.
51 StickShaker: QF's refusal to order any version of the 777 (particularly the 77W) is part of the reason the international division is performing so poorly, QF's po
52 jfk777: The Qantas 777 question has been debated to death but does bring an interesting point, why didn't QF get a 300 seat 7500 mile airplane ? If the 744/A
53 kaitak744: This is probably a conversion of their outstanding order of 5 777-200ERs. 1 new 777-300ER was firmed today, bringing the total to 15 + 5 -200ERs.
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