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CNN On OSL, Making Report On Winter Operations  
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3874 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6193 times:

From OSL Facebook page:

The American TV network , CNN is currently filming a report on OSL on the airports winter operations and how the airport manages so well. Apparently Americans ( and also the British ) are puzzled as to why winter operations goes so much more smoothly on OSL than on airports in the USA and UK.

The report will be aired on CNN on Business Traveller with Richard Quest on 14th of february.


So, why is it that winter operations at OSL is so much better managed ? We all know that the white stuff always comes down at a certain time of the year. One would expect that big international airports in the USA would have both the capacity and preperations ready to deal with it ?

OSL is ofcourse a smaller airport, but it is full to it's capacity and aircraft has to operate to it's schedule on this airport too.



Photo curtesy of OSL

https://www.facebook.com/#!/OsloLufthavn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Airport,_Gardermoen

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinewingnutmn From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5931 times:

Apparently they (CNN) have never been to MSP in the Winter. They usually manage to keep 2 runways open during a snowstorm, and when it is really bad manage to keep one runway open. They (MSP Airport) have more plows and snow removal equipment then most states do south of Illinois! This sounds more like an excuse to go to Norway for a week than a story. Also, OSL in 2012 had 22M pax, MSP in 2011 (could not find 2012 numbers) had 33M pax. I believe that MSP takes this one!

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlinedelta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5835 times:

There are a lot of US airports that handle snow very well (MSP/DTW/DEN). It's when snow hits airports like LGA (which is strained on good days) and ATL (not enough equipment) that the sh*t hits the fan. In fact, I read once that the airport at DEN had more snow-removal equipment than the entire state of Georgia!


From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
User currently offlinezanl188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5748 times:
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To paraphrase Mel Bakersfield:

"You buy enough snow removal equipment to cover an average storm, then when the big storm hits you go around the clock and do the best you can with the equipment you've got!"

(cue "Airport" main theme)



Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
User currently offlineLN-MOW From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1908 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5519 times:

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 2):
I read once that the airport at DEN had more snow-removal equipment than the entire state of Georgia!

Very likely. Atlanta har 8 snowplows. Doubt there's many more around the state ....



- I am LN-MOW, and I approve this message.
User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1858 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5327 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

I sure hope they send a copy of the tape to AMS and LHR ops!

Martijn



Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5279 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
So, why is it that winter operations at OSL is so much better managed ?


As a frequent user of OSL, I beg to differ.
For a key airport which is naturally prone to snow and ice, I am surprised that operations are so often disrupted.
LHR, AMS and CDG are not airports where extreme winter weather conditions may be expected, OSL is.


User currently offlineLN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 1026 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5023 times:

As I recall, Mr. Quest is a scouser (or Liverpudlian) and I think this may well be a report how one of the Top 20 European airports manage the snow removal so good while the British (LHR), the French (CDG), the Dutch (AMS), the Germans (FRA, DUS) and also the Danes (CPH) almost grind to a holt only seeing the snow. Contrary to MSP with their 4 four runways, OSL has only got two runways and closing down one runway is not an option.

During January this year OSL had a regularity of 98.8% and a punctuality of 84.2%. The regularity number is lower than normal, and a very large share of the cancellations was due to problems at the airport I mentioned above. While the second largest operator measured in movements at OSL, Norwegian, had a regularity of 99.9% with only two cancellations (one to AMS during the snow chaos there), the largest operator, SAS, suffered more with a regularity of 99.0% and almost 50% of the cancellations was related to the same airports above. If we look at other large operators at OSL in January, British Airways was at the bottom with a regularity of 70.5%. Next of the large European airlines was Lufthansa with 95.5%, then KLM with 96.1% and Air France with 96.6%. Brussels Airlines had a flawless record in January with 55 of 55 flown (regularity 100%) and the other operator to BRU, SAS had no cancellations. Wasn't BRU hit by the snow at all or did they show snow how?

I think OSL is very lucky to have one of the world's better manufacturers of airport snow removal equipment only 100 km from its site. This manufaturer, Øveraasen, has a close collaboration with OSL and use the airport to test improvements to their equipment. No need to say that almost all snow removal equipment at OSL bears the name Øveraasen. It is spectacular sight to see ten Øveraasen RS400 in formation doing 60 km/h down the runway and with the result a cleared runway in only six minutes.


Another picture from Facebook - Mr. Quest climbing the 2000 hp Øveraasen TV2000 snow blower at OSL

[Edited 2013-02-02 17:01:09]

User currently offlinebeau222 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4174 times:

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 3):
zanl188 ,

I was hoping someone would quote Bakersfield.


User currently offlinefoxecho From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 746 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4163 times:

They should have just come to SYR and saved money lol

Andrew



..uh, we'll need that to live......
User currently offlinemozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2168 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3442 times:

Quoting wingnutmn (Reply 1):
This sounds more like an excuse to go to Norway for a week than a story

The story is produced by CNN in London. So why go to Minneapolis?

Quoting foxecho (Reply 9):

They should have just come to SYR and saved money lol

I suspect it's the usual US-centric view of the world to think that everything not in your country is far and foreign. You simply assume that because it is a CNN story it would be cheaper to produce the story in the US than in Europe. It isn't.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2981 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3370 times:
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Quoting breiz (Reply 6):
LHR, AMS and CDG are not airports where extreme winter weather conditions may be expected, OSL is.

This is no longer an acceptable excuse for poor planning and in the scheme of things considering revenue generated the relatively small cost of a few more ploughs and blowers purchased.


User currently offlineSpeedbird2155 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 871 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3332 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 11):
This is no longer an acceptable excuse for poor planning and in the scheme of things considering revenue generated the relatively small cost of a few more ploughs and blowers purchased.

Cost is anything but relatively small.......it is a large investment for airports like LHR, AMS and CDG to reach standards of OSL and others in winter, only to use it for less than a week each year. The investment in OSL is proportional to the conditions they experience, that is months of snow. In addition, OSL doesn't have the number of flights that LHR, AMS and CDG have and so would have more space and time for clearance than these larger airports so would expect less disruption at OSL.

Compared to previous years, I would say that LHR in particular, has been learning and improving and has better plans in place. This year LHR managed to remain operational, with the main problem being poor visibility leading to ATC restrictions, rather than the snow.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2981 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3291 times:
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Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 12):
Cost is anything but relatively small.......it is a large investment for airports like LHR, AMS and CDG to reach standards of OSL and others in winter, only to use it for less than a week each year

Not acceptable !

That said LHR Airports planning has improved and i don't care if its one DAY.
They need to be prepared and it IS small when measured with revenue !


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2981 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3201 times:
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Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 12):
with the main problem being poor visibility leading to ATC restrictions, rather than the snow

I understand that ATC did not actually declare or activate LVP during last period of snow, yet the authorities still instigated flow and slot restrictions in the region of 10 to 20% slot reductions at times.


User currently offlineokobjorn From Denmark, joined Jun 2011, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3149 times:

Quoting beau222 (Reply 8):
As I recall, Mr. Quest is a scouser (or Liverpudlian) and I think this may well be a report how one of the Top 20 European airports manage the snow removal so good while the British (LHR), the French (CDG), the Dutch (AMS), the Germans (FRA, DUS) and also the Danes (CPH) almost grind to a holt only seeing the snow. Contrary to MSP with their 4 four runways, OSL has only got two runways and closing down one runway is not an option.

CPH almost never closes down due to snow. Operations may be temporarily restricted by the combination of severe snowfall and severe crosswinds to the main runways (04/22) as rwy 12/30 then will conduct the full operation of the airport.
I do not have exact numbers as LN-KGL has for OSL, but CPH is far from the same league as LHR, CDG, AMS and FRA.


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

According to this article, OSL has 27 people on 24/7 in wintertime, wich increases with 90 people from mid october to march. Altogether 135 people is employed just to plouge snow ... The crew usually get the equipment they ask for without question.

It's not just about plouging, but also having a snowdepot. There is alot of mechanics involved in keeping the equipment in working condition. However the investments pays off.

Quest is impressed by all the equipment ( wich he get to try out ), but says it's ,not only the equipment, but also good planning and worketich.

http://www.osloby.no/CNN-lager-episode-om-Gardermoen-7110147.html


User currently onlinepspfan From Netherlands, joined Mar 2008, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2678 times:
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Restrictions in flow are quite normal during snowfall. Outbound flights are limited due to de icing capacity of the handling companies. The inbounds can continue to land until the runways are marked poor. After that the snowfleet has to clean the runway that will be used in mixed mode. When the snow halts they will clean a second runway so that there will be a capacity of around 30/30. In the meanwhile gates are cleared of snow so that there will be no infarct at the terminal area. It is always easy to criticize but AMS has made some big improvements last couple of years.


Fixit002Heavy
User currently offlinewingnutmn From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Quoting mozart (Reply 10):

No, it is not a US centralist attitude, it is a I live in MN and fly out of MSP for a living. I am just saying that I have not been to another airport in the US that handles snow as well as MSP. DEN would be next best. Also, I know that CNN is a worldwide company and has offices throughlut the world. Just like SKY news and even Al Jazeera. Your comment also shows your European view of if it is the US or involves the US, it can't be that good. Right, because nothing we do is as good as what you do!

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlineSpeedbird2155 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 871 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2532 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 13):
That said LHR Airports planning has improved and i don't care if its one DAY.
They need to be prepared and it IS small when measured with revenue !

The investment required to purchase and maintain the equipment is not insignificant and from a financial perspective does not make sense if you spend more time actually servicing and maintaining the equipment than it is operational. LHR and any other airport has to make a judgement as to the acceptable level of investment based on potential return.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 14):
I understand that ATC did not actually declare or activate LVP during last period of snow, yet the authorities still instigated flow and slot restrictions in the region of 10 to 20% slot reductions at times.

The first day of snow (18 Jan IIRC), was severely affected and visibility was extremely poor and there were LVP in place. The slot restrictions that followed is based on an agreed plan to introduce slack into LHR during predicted periods of severe weather or reduced visibility. This allows the airlines and airport to proactively manage the situation rather than wait until it happens and react.


User currently offlineLN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 1026 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2367 times:

Speedbird2155, you have to remember that airports with more than one runway have the ability to divide the movements among more runways - and hence the loads will get lower for each runway. Doing the exercise for the airports I mentioned above + plus adding the two top European airports that makes out the lowest and the highest loads.

Movements per runway in 2012:
ARN = 210,000 movements / 3 = 70,000 movements per runway
CPH = 242,990 movements / 3 = 80,997 movements per runway
AMS = 423,400 movements / 4 = 105,850 movements per runway **
DUS = 221,700 movements / 2 = 110,850 movements per runway *
OSL = 230,360 movements / 2 = 115,180 movements per runway
FRA = 482,240 movements / 4 = 120,560 movements per runway
CDG = 506,890 movements / 4 = 126,723 movements per runway *
LHR = 471,380 movements / 2 = 235,690 movements per runway
LGW = 240,455 movements / 1 = 240,455 movements per runway

* 2011 numbers
** The sixth and shortest runway at AMS, Oostbaan (rwy 04/22), is mainly used by the Dutch Coast Guard, some few executive jets included the orange Fokker 70 and I have therefore not counted that as a regular runway. The Buitenveldertbaan (rwy 09/27) is usually only used during strong westerly winds and when used blocks the Aalsmeerbaan (rwy 18L/36R)

There is also the thing regarding load shifts between summer and winter. LHR had only 17% more passengers in July compared with the number of passengers that went through the terminals in December. The largest difference between the two months was LGW with 59%. CPH, AMS and FRA had a larger summer shift in loads compared with OSL, and since OSL report their movements monthly we know July had only 8.6% more movements than December in 2012. In other words the movement loads are very evenly spread out over the year, and the snow season offers no breaks.

Let us take a closer look at the regularity of three airlines at OSL the last years.


Except for KLM and SAS are playing in a different league compared with British Airways, it is easy to identify the snow spikes at LHR in February 2009, February 2010, December 2010 and January 2013 and for AMS the mid December 2010 and the two last months can clearly be seen. The small spike for all three airlines in December 2011 was due to a day with freezing fog at OSL. The only real spike SAS had at OSL was due to the Icelandic ash in April 2010. What the causes for all the other British Airways spikes I don't know. One thing is for sure, the confidence to British Airways is not strengthened with an average of 1 out of 10 flights being cancelled for the whole period shown. In addition to that, British Airways is also among the low punctuality performers at OSL and this certainly makes it even worse for BA to win passengers.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is: The snow removal team at OSL does a wonderful job and many of the large European airports can learn a lot from OSL. OSL has natural phenomenon to deal with caused by the relatively warm Lake Hurdal to the north of Gardermoen. With northerly wind this moist air drifts south oover the relatively cold ground around the airport and the result is the darn freezing December fog. No snow removal team can help remove that.


User currently offlineLN-KGL From Norway, joined Sep 1999, 1026 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1990 times:

It might be interesting for you to know how well Newark Liberty International Airport did it this Saturday after only being in the outskirts of the Nor'easter Nemo. I've done a small analysis based on the FlightStats departure numbers 9 February 00:00 - 23:59 local, and here are the results.

Regularity = 50.3%
Punctuality = 54.8%
Average delay of aircraft departing with more than 15 minutes late = 1 hour 51 minutes

Number of departing seats cancelled = 23 thousand (44%)
Number of departing seats flown and delayed with more than 15 minutes = 14 thousand (27%)
Number of departing seats flown on time = 15 thousand (29%)

I don't know the cabin loads at EWR on this Saturday, but a safe guess must be over 50,000 passengers where affected - either didn't fly or experienced a considerable delay.

Now the question is: Was Mr. Quest at EWR this Saturday?


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1705 times:

Part 1, 2, 3 and 4

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video...raveller-oslo-airport-norway-a.cnn

Part 1: How Oslo Airport beats the weather

Part 2: Powerful antifreeze fights icy wings

Part 3: Simulators helps pilots master the snow

All parts includes bits an pieces from OSL


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