allrite From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 1676 posts, RR: 4 Posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 20773 times:
Welcome to the Australia Aviation Thread #68 in the midst of some big announcements.
Previously we discussed:
* Predictions for Melbourne
* Royal Brunei to keep MEL over BNE putting politics ahead of logic
* Virgin Australia moves to Sabre, replaces DJ with VA
* CZ reinstates PER-CAN, announces BNE
* JQ breakdown in HNL
* Issues with PER redevelopment
* JQ, QF and the 787 issues
* Additional 5 717s for QantasLink
* Weather related diversions
* Could QF base aircraft in Dubai for flights EK is constrained from flying?
* QF loses NZ ground handling contract to Toll Dnata
* QF removes its code from JQ domestic flights between major capitals
* Discussion of Qantas special liveries
* MH adding flights to BNE
* TransAsia rumoured to fly to Australia and NZ
* QF announces changes to Asian network, to cease FRA in April.
sydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 2568 posts, RR: 20 Reply 1, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 20702 times:
Quoting tullamarine (Reply 205): So the new Asian strategy is deferred another 3 years and even that may be optimnistic given the 787-9s in 2016 are no certainty given the current dramas. Surely QF understands that SQ,CX and the Chinese carriers are not going to sit on their hands for 3 years. By 2016, there will be litlle of worth for QF to consider that is not already serviced.
Entirely agreed. If QF wants to resume services to India, Beijing and Seoul they'd better do it before 2016! It's also worthwhile noting that nowhere is there anything more ambitious for the 789. No resumption of SFO, FCO or a new service to a place like GRU. It's going to be really interesting to see what happens when;
- We know the outcome of the current Italy traffic rights. If QF loses 200 seats a week to Virgin the only way they can make it up is be commencing services. If they lose half of the remainder, 300 seats per week, again the only way to make it up is to actually fly it;
- The SAA codeshare finishes. The cynic in me thinks that QF will entirely abandon the PER-South Africa market and concentrate on SYD.
Quoting tullamarine (Reply 205): Truly bizarre ceasing PER-HKG!!! You can still earn FF points on CX but CX must be wrapped, Likewise SQ will gladly accept the ADL pax heading to Asia.
The cynic in me is waiting for the Jetstar announcement.........
sydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 2568 posts, RR: 20 Reply 3, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 20618 times:
[quote=mariner,reply=2]Will they have the aircraft? I thought (could be wrong) the 787's weren't coming until 2016.
But I wonder if anything can be carved in granite with that aircraft and I'm wondering if there is a Plan B.
I think the Plan B is already in place - instead of the A332's coming from JQ back to Domestic, they go to International instead. The A332 has plenty of range to do India, China, Korea and most of the rest of the region from Australia while the 767's, with the IPADS etc, are more than adequate for the domestic trunk network. It may be less efficient to keep them around but if QF wants to do it, they've got the capability.
Otherwise, and I actually think this is a good idea, QF could obtain some 737-900ER's and use them on the East Coast trunk routes while they split the A332's coming from Jetstar between International and Domestic. The 4 JQ A332's with the lighter floors could come back to Domestic along with a couple of others while the balance are upgraded to A380 style and go International. That kills two birds with 1 stone while allowing QF to keep a simplified domestic fleet and retiring the 767's.
tullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1261 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20466 times:
Quoting sydscott (Reply 5): I think a few more A330's couldn't hurt given the problems with the 787 program.
Only problem is Airbus has no available slots on their A330 line in the short-term.
They could approach EK who is rumoured to be reducing their A332 fleet as new 77Ws arrive but these are RR powered, not GE powered like the existing QF fleet and VA's experience with the ex-EK A332s has not been a happy one!!
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 23929 posts, RR: 87 Reply 7, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20447 times:
Quoting sydscott (Reply 5): I think a few more A330's couldn't hurt given the problems with the 787 program.
I think it is close to essential, but maybe I'm a tad more wary (cynical?) about the 787 deliveries than most.
Every time AJ sings the praises of the aircraft, I wonder when he'll wake up and smell the coffee. It can only change the game when it's flying - and it ain't.
I think the same of Air New Zealand and the only way I can explain it is with the analyst Richard Aboulafia's comment: "the drug-like rush of the 787."
It seems to be a tough addiction to break. As I said in the other thread, it is astonishing to me that the then management of Qantas, supposedly hard-headed business people, went doolalley and bet a large part of the farm on so much new technology - and didn't have a back-up plan.
sydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 2568 posts, RR: 20 Reply 8, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 20386 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 7): Every time AJ sings the praises of the aircraft, I wonder when he'll wake up and smell the coffee. It can only change the game when it's flying - and it ain't.
I have a friend who is constantly singing the praises of how wonderful her husband is. One of my less than tolerant friends, admittedly when he was drunk, asked her if she kept repeating herself to convince us or to try and convince herself. I see Alan Joyce's comments about the 787 in the same light.
Quoting tullamarine (Reply 6): Only problem is Airbus has no available slots on their A330 line in the short-term.
Given QF is a substantial Airbus operator, if they needed them I'll bet Airbus could find them. I'd go as far to say that QF should cancel a couple of the A380's they have deferred and convert them to A330's. That works well for Airbus, who has orders now, and for QF taking A380's deferred to 2020 off of their order book. I doubt QF would take second hand aircraft that don't have commonality with the existing fleet.
Let me re-phrase to "I doubt they would do it again". Considering they are getting rid of the ex BA 767's and 2 of the first 744's to be retired were bought second hand, and were apparently problematic to maintain, I'd say it's not an experiment that QF will want to repeat!
Flyingsottsman From Australia, joined Oct 2010, 431 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 20235 times:
Quoting sydscott (Reply 1): Quoting tullamarine (Reply 205):
Truly bizarre ceasing PER-HKG!!! You can still earn FF points on CX but CX must be wrapped, Likewise SQ will gladly accept the ADL pax heading to Asia.
The cynic in me is waiting for the Jetstar announcement.........
Yes I tend to agree JQ are just waiting in the wings to take over these routes. It does amaze me how QF can just give up citys in its own back yard to the competition. Perth is a city on its own with a large ex pat english population over there most of the mining HQ's are located over there you would think there would be enough buisness for QF out of Perth alone. I am sure both SQ and CX must be rubbing their hands together. Why hasnt QF created an Indian Ocean network out of Perth? Holiday places like the Seychelles, Mauritius, Madagascar. If the codeshare with SAA ends operate Perth/Joburg, even the Maldives all from Perth I am sure they could make money some how all from Perth make Perth a West Coast hub.
Ben175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 625 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 20101 times:
Am I the only one who finds it absolutely hilarious that EK and SQ can manage to fill ginourmous Boeing 777 aircraft 3-4 x daily and offer 21-28 weekly flights to a single destination - while all QF will now offer PER passengers is a daily Singapore service? I thought we'd see an INCREASE in Asian flying, perhaps bringing DPS and CGK back to QF mainline, heck even the return of Tokyo to strengthen JQ Japan. Absolutely pathetic if you ask me. This is why I'm a proud Singapore Airlines frequent flier. Bright days ahead for all the Asian airlines flying into WA.
SYDSpotter From Australia, joined Oct 2012, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 19834 times:
Quoting Ben175 (Reply 12): Am I the only one who finds it absolutely hilarious that EK and SQ can manage to fill ginourmous Boeing 777 aircraft 3-4 x daily and offer 21-28 weekly flights to a single destination - while all QF will now offer PER passengers is a daily Singapore service? I thought we'd see an INCREASE in Asian flying, perhaps bringing DPS and CGK back to QF mainline, heck even the return of Tokyo to strengthen JQ Japan. Absolutely pathetic if you ask me. This is why I'm a proud Singapore Airlines frequent flier. Bright days ahead for all the Asian airlines flying into WA
No, its called a different business model. SQ, EK, CX etc are 'hub carriers' whereas QF is effectively a point to point carrier.
Lets take PER as an example. SQ flying into PER not only carries those flying direct from PER-SIN (i.e. O&D) but also connecting/transit traffic (e.g. those flying from PER who want to fly into Paris,London, Beijing, Mumbai, Tokyo, Zurich etc but connect in Singapore).
Even with the previous QF 'mini-hub' in SIN, QF's PER-SIN flight was effectively comprised of 2 categories of passengers (those going to LHR/FRA and connecting on the QF LHR/FRA services and those flying just into Singapore). Compare that with SQ, who can connect the PER traffic with their entire network in Asia/Sub-continent and Europe.
In terms of DPS/CGK going back to QF mainline, ain't going to happen. They are tourist/VFR markets and will never be high yielding enough to support a QF service.
SYDSpotter From Australia, joined Oct 2012, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (10 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 19788 times:
Quoting Ben175 (Reply 21): And QF is the national carrier of Australia - Australia is not Sydney.
It may be the national carrier but it's purpose is not to serve every city out of Australia, but it is to run an airline profitably. If that means certain markets/cities don't get served then so be it.
And let's not go down the route of QF is always so Sydney 'centric'. There's a good reason why Sydney gets most of the traffic, it's because that's where the greatest demand is. One only needs to look at the number and frequency (and size of airplane) of all the other airlines that fly into SYD vs MEL/BNE/ADL/PER and it's no coincidence that QF is not the only airline which focuses the majority of their ops at SYD.
If the other capital cities could support direct services (i.e. make money and generate a return), then QF would be operating those. QF not operating certain services is not because they're brain dead but rather the route isn't sustainable.
**Btw, Yes I am from Sydney and I'm not trying to turn this into a mine is bigger than your's contest.
Ben175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 625 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (10 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 19733 times:
Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 22): One only needs to look at the number and frequency (and size of airplane) of all the other airlines that fly into SYD vs MEL/BNE/ADL/PER and it's no coincidence that QF is not the only airline which focuses the majority of their ops at SYD.
SQ and EK's frequency to PER and SYD pretty much match, obviously SYD gets the A380's but, in EK's case, that's simply because PER's management is ludacris.
Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 22): If the other capital cities could support direct services (i.e. make money and generate a return), then QF would be operating those. QF not operating certain services is not because they're brain dead but rather the route isn't sustainable.
The twice daily PER-SIN rotation has been profitable. Many occasions I have booked a PER-SIN flight only to find that both flights are sold out and QF wants to route me via Sydney (ha-ha). Sure, a generous amount of feed will be lost with SIN-LHR/FRA leaving, but if Alan Joyce knows how to run an airline and isn't talking smack (who am I kidding), new demand should be generated through an increase in cooperation with QF's Asian partners and a better schedule alignment. This proposed "Asian expansion" is complete BS for WA, like always. I highly doubt we'll see any new destinations added in the next "four phases" either. I'm not demanding QF operate flights to every Asian capital, but HKG three times a week is a vital route, unless they want to pass even more of their traffic to CX.
Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 22): **Btw, Yes I am from Sydney and I'm not trying to turn this into a mine is bigger than your's contest.
Oh don't worry, us in the West have Qatar!
No disrespect to you, but I don't think you understand simply because you have the luxury of Qantas' extensive and expansive hub at your doorstep. Saying PER cannot sustain anything more than a flimsy A330 to Singapore makes no logical sense when almost every other established airline in PER has doubled or even tripled their capacity within the last 12-24 months. Yes, EK and SQ capture alot of connecting traffic, but there is significant O&D demand for Singapore (it's one of Australia's most travelled international routes) and Hong Kong. Qantas' cuts to the PER network have not gone unnoticed, many people over here believe QF is utterly useless and overpriced with their two (and in many cases, three) stop journies to anywhere in Europe but LHR. I used to be very patriotic about my flag carrier, but AJ seriously needs to go. Pronto.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 23929 posts, RR: 87 Reply 24, posted (10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 19689 times:
Quoting Ben175 (Reply 23): Saying PER cannot sustain anything more than a flimsy A330 to Singapore makes no logical sense when almost every other established airline in PER has doubled or even tripled their capacity within the last 12-24 months.
And there you have the answer - or a large part of it.
Australians have been flocking to the ME/Asian carriers (for whatever reason and price may be the biggest) but then complain if Qantas cuts service.
I'm not sure why "use it or lose it" is so hard to understand. If you want more Qantas at PER you have to use it.
All the airline can do is offer - it can't actually force people to part with their money.
25 gemuser: Would you like to prove that? QF ceased being the "National Carrier" in the 1990s when the government sold it. Its now just another profit driven com
26 Ben175: You're pretty much saying you expect WA passengers to fork out hundreds of extra dollars and add ridiculous backtracking/valuable hours to an itinera
27 mariner: No, I am not saying anything like that. I'm saying that an airline can only offer - if people choose not to fly it, or fly others instead, there isn'
28 sydscott: The QF issue at PER is a couple of things as I see it; 1. The QF domestic situation in Perth has never been stronger. QF has a large share of transco
29 mariner: That may be part of the problem - perception. Jetstar has achieved what it set out to be, the brand does not carry national connotations. Too success
30 tullamarine: Jetstar operating PER-CGK has had the perverse effect of making Garuda desirable.
31 mariner: I've never had a problem on Garuda. I like the airline. Then again, I've never had a problem on Jetstar. You blokes must be really, really picky. mar
32 Ben175: Exactly. I have no idea why JQ haven't looked into flights from PER to KUL, BKI, HKT, SUB or KCH. We've even got PR launching PER-DRW-MNL with an A32
33 sydscott: As much as I agree with Mariner, I think there is room for QF Mainline 737-800 service on CGK. That's what it used to be prior to Jetstar taking over
34 mariner: Maybe, even probably, but I assume there's a reason they switched it to Jetstar and - I'm guessing - the reason is yield. It's a curious problem. Ind
35 EK413: Are you offering to step in, take charge of a well known icon & return it to profitability again without making the necessary changes which AJ ha
36 Ben175: Why don't you have a scroll through the wall posts on Qantas' Facebook page... you might come to realise that to the people of WA and SA, Qantas is n
37 AirNiugini: Garuda is bloody good these days mate, you should give them a go next time you head off to South East Asia or Europe... People on facebook say outrag
38 Flyingsottsman: Every time the subject of QF and routes comes up the "Sydney vs the rest of Australia" comes up, its been like that for decades and will continue to b
39 SYDSpotter: I could list a number of carriers that fly into SYD and not PER, but I'll let you have your moment in the sun As per the previous post by the others
40 9MMPD: We are close the 2 million now (curently 1.9) thats alot of travellers to forsake. Just hope AJ can get QF International back on its feet and then us
41 mariner: If you're trying to sell Perth and Western Australia, you lost me right there. If you want Qantas to be a "national carrier" you'd better push your m
42 EK413: I never said "Australian icon"... I said "well known icon"... As for those comments on Facebook it comes from those which don't understand how the in
43 Sydscott: Personally I doubt that. I think the reason has more to do with Jetstar being able to use the Australian beyond rights into Singapore to connect in w
44 mariner: Maybe. If aircraft use is the key to it, that that strikes me as entirely valid, too. It is all Qantas Group. mariner
45 RyanairGuru: I've always thought this, and still do. In fact I always wondered where the 757 went with QF. A 757 style aircraft (739MAX or 321NEO) would be perfec
46 fiscal: Unlike some I can understand the rationale behind the reduced services out of Perth, but I am personally more concerned with the redemption status for
47 airbusa322: Tiger to launch: SYD-ASP SYD-CNS MEL-ASP MEL-MCY Pending Announcement from the company.
48 Sydscott: Personally, if I was travelling in business I'd go with CX over QF, and EK, anyday. But I do take your point and it does seem counter intuitive to re
49 fiscal: Funny how this topic was talking about PER-CGK http://www.perthnow.com.au/business/...-june/story-e6frg2qc-1226571493812 Seems Garuda has beaten us to
50 qf002: The problem is that PER-HKG is really a spoke-spoke route for QF. They are almost entirely dependant on local market traffic to support their service
51 Sydscott: For Transcon I agree however for flights in the Golden Triangle and to Adelaide that are currently a 767, a 737-900ER or a 739MAX would seem perfect
52 RyanairGuru: Me too Funny you should mention that. People in the USA said that when UA started using the 757 for PremiumService... and when DL chose the 757 when
53 Ben175: And the increase in PER flights from the Asian carriers begins. Garuda has been operating a triangular CGK-PER-DPS-CGK for years, and used to operate
54 AirNiugini: Wouldn't that be the same for the BNE to HKG route? I'm not very knowledgeable about QF's HKG aspirations, but what connections/ partners do QF now h
55 Ben175: Garuda's PER-CGK schedule: GA0724 CGK-PER 1030 1550 738 GA0725 PER-CGK 1740 2115 738 The website is playing up a little, so not sure on frequency - I
56 ZKOKQ: I dont get why everyone is banging on about markets being pulled. The fact is QF was finding parts of its network unprofitable. So they done what is n
57 EK413: Very well said! Other news... Sydney Airport given more time for grand plan Date: February 05 2013 The federal Transport Minister, Anthony Albanese,
58 RyanairGuru: That sounds incredibly political, as though Albanese wanted to carry it into the election (with his electorate nearby) and also get to tinker with it
59 Sydscott: The reason we're "banging on about" it is because, realistically, QF never really gave these markets the chance they needed to be successful. They sa
60 RyanairGuru: This is where the decision to scrap PER-HKG makes the least sense. Even if the route is loss making on an absolute basis, it is surprising that no on
61 Sydscott: Some Virgin news for a change - The ACCC is concerned that Virgin taking a majority stake in Tiger might be anti-competitive. http://www.businessday.c
62 Dan23: Does anyone here know the status of 744 VH-OJT? She has been at Avalon (assumed to be for maintenance) since 7th December. This comes shortly after sp
63 6thfreedom: No real surprises there. 3 of the 4 routes are resumption of services. the only new flight is SYD-ASP which was not operated previously
64 EK413: Some interesting flight news for Dubai... I'm curious if the move has anything to do with QF moving their hub from Singapore to Dubai...? I understand
65 QF175: It appears that Virgin Australia has almost completed the Business Class installation on its E190 fleet. According to Flightaware, VH-ZPM returned to
66 ZKOKQ: Just because the routes are pulled early, doesn't mean forward bookings were crash hot, once again, the service was there, but people using the servi
67 EK413: I've answered my own question not to worry KQ will still operate NBO-BKK daily... it's just that the flight will be reallocated to CAN to become a da
68 mariner: Out of interest, what happened to Air North's allocation for Indonesia? Are they dormant or did they go back into the pot? tia. mariner
69 QF762: Interesting to note with the QF BNE-SIN changes, the daily service is still scheduled as a 744 up until at least July with the corrected times. (I wou
70 RyanairGuru: I agree, especially with PER going down to 1x meaning that there will be a spare 333 floating around the system. Is anyone aware of any 333 heavy mai
71 QF175: The reason EK has amended their schedule from a 0230L to a 2330L departure ex-Brisbane is due to RWY01/19 resurfacing works taking place overnight du
72 QF762: Oh, OK... That makes sense. And here I was thinking QF and EK were going all out with their co-operation! I didn't realise they marketed it as same d
73 QF175: Looks to be a good year ahead for Brisbane and Melbourne Airports. BRISBANE Commenced or Announced - Daily Etihad BNE-SIN-AUH services - Daily Qantas
74 JQflightie: I think that is completely wrong, you try and get on a GA flight in J/C, further to that, the rtn price for a J/C ticket is nearly $2450 on all 3 fli
75 Ben175: Following GA, CX and MH are also announcing increases in PER services.
76 EK413: Sydney bound flights have been placed in holding patterns with SQ211, SQ7286 circling in the outer west... The QF44 was holding but has landed and so
77 TN486: same happening in the south, the standard doughnuts on ac coming in from MEL, holding patterns to the west pf Canberra. Also note QF2904, Antarctic c
78 EK413: Is MEL experiencing any thunderstorms too...? VA883, CX139, AC33 in holding patterns at the moment... EK413[Edited 2013-02-10 01:30:46]
79 TN486: MEL weather is cool but fine. I thought the current delays into SYD were due to the normal sunday night "quagmire". Please send some of the rain south
80 SYDSpotter: A few thunderstorms around town tonight.
81 EK413: We going to hear about it in the news tomorrow "Sydney Airport experienced lengthy delays due to thunderstorms, decision on 2nd airport top priority"
82 BHMNONREV: I have just recently relocated from the US to Darwin to work on the Ichthys LNG project. With the number of Filipinos who work here I'm sure this fli
83 gemuser: Most if not all of that demand will be met by charter flights on behalf of the mining companies, not regular scheduled services. QF, VA and various s
84 BHMNONREV: Certainly makes sense from a cost standpoint, as it looks like all return fares from DRW are astronomical..
85 QF175: JQ will commence 4x weekly SYD-AYQ services in JUN13, replacing the existing daily QF 737-800 service. Schedule: SYD/AYQ 1030/1335 JQ660 Tue/Thu/Fri/S
86 QF175: Qantas will also reportedly cancel its thrice weekly CBR-DRW service later this year..
87 VHVXB: As result of the impending EK-QF tie up, QF has changed it baggage policy from the piece concept to the weight concept. In addition both EK and QF hav
88 fiscal: Pay Plus Points and Any Flight award redemptions are available now, but us poor Classic Awards seekers must wait until after March 31 to see what add
89 NZ107: QF's SYD-AYQ flight is going to be a JQ flight from June.. Oh well, I guess there's still a way to get there on QF via the 717s through PER or DRW.
90 bjwonline: There are no DRW-AYQ or PER-AYQ flights. CNS is the only other destination from AYQ which is serviced by QantasLink's B717.