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WB's For US NB Carriers  
User currently offlinePassedV1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 218 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

What does it take for a NB airline to make the leap into the WB market. I can't remember the last time that it has been tried, but what does it take, and who of the lot is the most likely to make the leap. (SW, JB, AS, etc.)

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2067 times:

Quoting PassedV1 (Thread starter):
What does it take for a NB airline to make the leap into the WB market. I can't remember the last time that

Well for starters, it would take many tens of millions of dollars.


User currently offlineAtlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2049 times:

I think of all that group listed above is say probably JetBlue would be the first to make that leap. My prediction some time with in the next 10 years.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1946 times:

I imagine the big legacy carriers UA/DL/AA would really attack any widebody routes flown by any smaller carrier. It is one thing to steal low yield Florida and leisure traffic from the legacies, it is another to go after the bread and butter int'l routes.


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User currently offlineredzeppelin From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 498 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting PassedV1 (Thread starter):
I can't remember the last time that it has been tried

Maybe ATA?



Happiness is rediscovering a forgotten L-1011 in your flight log.
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1333 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1858 times:

What domestic routes today are served more than once a day by a wide body, besides flights to Hawaii?

I know AA does LAX-NYC, but those 767s are being replaced by narrow bodies.

Even HA is getting some NBs when today it is all WB (for interstate flying).


User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1805 times:

Are we talking about AS/WN/B6 getting widebodies to fly domestic routes? or to expand internationally?


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User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29686 posts, RR: 84
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1755 times:
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Quoting PassedV1 (Thread starter):
What does it take for a NB airline to make the leap into the WB market.

A medium-haul route that had high traffic volumes 365-days a year across multiple years clustered around a 60-minute departure window at each end. But even then, I'm not sure it would be worth the effort.

Consider a hypothetical AS morning service between ANC and LAX that had three daily 737-800 departures of 07:00, 07:20 and 07:40. Assuming 100% LF in First and 85% LF in Economy, that would be 48 First seats and 360 Economy seats. *

An AS 787-8 could seat 54 First Class seats between Door 1 and Door 2. At 8-abreast, they would seat 244 in Economy and at 9-abreast, that would be 273. So if AS collapsed those three 737-800 flights onto one 787-8, they would see an increase of 6 First Class seats (which would predominately go to upgrades) and a reduction of 87-116 Economy seats. Now AS is fortunate to have a strong lock on Alaska traffic, but if UA, AA, DL or VX added an A320-200 or 737-800 departure in that window, they might be able to take a fair bit of those displaced customers depending on when the next AS departures were (and how high their average LF was). We'd also need to factor in the trip costs of three 737-800s versus one 787-8 and what the net profit of three 737-800s is vs. one 787-8.


* - First will almost always go out full due to upgrades. And it strikes me that an airline would have three flights within an hour's block because there was strong demand, which would lead to higher than average load factors in Economy.

[Edited 2013-02-04 11:31:31]

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6110 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

I'd say the size of the plane is the wrong way to look at things. Such successful airlines will look into widebodies when they'll be looking at destinations further away than what their current planes can fly. And I don't think buying only a couple of planes would work, so they would need a plan to really shake the current players.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineLH707330 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1559 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
Such successful airlines will look into widebodies when they'll be looking at destinations further away than what their current planes can fly.

Bring back the A300! Seriously though, all modern WBs are optimized for longer distances and are consequently heavy, so I doubt it makes sense for one of these carriers to upgauge.


User currently offlinePassedV1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1416 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 6):
Are we talking about AS/WN/B6 getting widebodies to fly domestic routes? or to expand internationally?

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of new routes. If Delta can make money flying SEA-NRT and SEA-CDG, I don't see why AS couldn't if it had it's own metal (ahem, plastic) to do it. AS would also have the benefit of selctively upgauging certain routes (i.e. a couple of SEA-ANC flights in the summer). I'm sure the same could be said for many routes to Europe for JB on the East Coast.

Just thinking/wishing out loud.


User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1259 times:

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 10):
I guess I was thinking more along the lines of new routes. If Delta can make money flying SEA-NRT and SEA-CDG, I don't see why AS couldn't if it had it's own metal (ahem, plastic) to do it. AS would also have the benefit of selctively upgauging certain routes (i.e. a couple of SEA-ANC flights in the summer). I'm sure the same could be said for many routes to Europe for JB on the East Coast.

Just thinking/wishing out loud.

In other parts of the world it seems commonplace, and successful at that, for LCCs (I hate that term) to fly widebodies on international routes as you dream about above. I dont know why it hasnt happened in the US yet, perhaps too much existing competition?



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User currently offlinejporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 425 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1209 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 5):
What domestic routes today are served more than once a day by a wide body, besides flights to Hawaii?

ATL-LAX DL 1x 77L, 5x 763
ATL-SLC DL 3x 763

That's what I could find for DL for this time of year. During the summer, of course, many flights are upgauged.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1175 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 5):
What domestic routes today are served more than once a day by a wide body,



Today:
IAH-EWR UA 2 x B763, 1 x B764
IAH-LAX UA 1 x B762



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlinehoMsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1119 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):

A medium-haul route that had high traffic volumes 365-days a year across multiple years clustered around a 60-minute departure window at each end. But even then, I'm not sure it would be worth the effort.

Consider a hypothetical AS morning service between ANC and LAX that had three daily 737-800 departures of 07:00, 07:20 and 07:40. Assuming 100% LF in First and 85% LF in Economy, that would be 48 First seats and 360 Economy seats. *

An AS 787-8 could seat 54 First Class seats between Door 1 and Door 2. At 8-abreast, they would seat 244 in Economy and at 9-abreast, that would be 273. So if AS collapsed those three 737-800 flights onto one 787-8, they would see an increase of 6 First Class seats (which would predominately go to upgrades) and a reduction of 87-116 Economy seats. Now AS is fortunate to have a strong lock on Alaska traffic, but if UA, AA, DL or VX added an A320-200 or 737-800 departure in that window, they might be able to take a fair bit of those displaced customers depending on when the next AS departures were (and how high their average LF was). We'd also need to factor in the trip costs of three 737-800s versus one 787-8 and what the net profit of three 737-800s is vs. one 787-8.


* - First will almost always go out full due to upgrades. And it strikes me that an airline would have three flights within an hour's block because there was strong demand, which would lead to higher than average load factors in Economy.

But then the next question is, what do those three 737-800s do once they get to LAX? If they all turn around and fly, one after the other, to the same destination, then you could use that same hypothetical 787. However, if one turns around and flies to SEA, another to PDX, and another back to ANC, well...it's awfully hard to split that widebody into three.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2977 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1096 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 5):
What domestic routes today are served more than once a day by a wide body, besides flights to Hawaii?

CLT-PHL:1x 767, 1x A332



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1151 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1059 times:

I can see B6 ordering 763ERs to major Euope hubs like LHR (with AA and BA codeshare), FRA (since LH owns 19% of B6), and possibly CDG.

If Boeing re-announces the 783, I can definitely see B6 using them for transcon and NYC to Florida and SJU. And possibly AS for their Hawaii flights and SEA/LAX-ANC.

WE NEED MORE DOMESTIC WIDEBODIES!!!!!!!



Я говорю по-русский. :)
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2048 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1030 times:

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 12):
Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 13):
Quoting USAirALB (Reply 15):

Of course all of those flights are hub-to-hub/focus city (within one airline) and the presence of multiple daily widebodies are largely due to aircraft positioning and people connecting within the airline's network...

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 16):
I can see B6 ordering 763ERs to major Euope hubs like LHR (with AA and BA codeshare), FRA (since LH owns 19% of B6), and possibly CDG.

I don't see any new customers ordering passenger 767s (by new customers I mean an airline who has never operated the 767, not top ups from airlines such as LAN).

[Edited 2013-02-05 13:43:12]

User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1151 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1016 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 17):
I don't see any new customers ordering passenger 767s (by new customers I mean an airline who has never operated the 767, not top ups from airlines such as LAN)

I somewhat agreee. The only way I see a new 767 order is if a NB airline like AS, B6, or WestJet were to start WB flights since it is a lower risk, cheaper, and more readily available alternative to the 787 ad A350.



Я говорю по-русский. :)
User currently offlinehoMsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 948 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 18):
I somewhat agreee. The only way I see a new 767 order is if a NB airline like AS, B6, or WestJet were to start WB flights since it is a lower risk, cheaper, and more readily available alternative to the 787 ad A350.

Cheaper/more readily available, I agree. Lower risk, not necessarily.

Ignoring the 787's current troubles, a 787 would have a lower operating cost than a 767 would, and if the venture somehow didn't work and they had to dump the planes, the 787 would be much easier to place than would a 767.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 16):
WE NEED MORE DOMESTIC WIDEBODIES!!!!!!!

Why?



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently onlineWingtips56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 888 times:

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 4):
Quoting PassedV1 (Thread starter):
I can't remember the last time that it has been tried

Maybe ATA?

HP/America West and their 747s. That didn't go well.



Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines
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