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Alaska's ANC/SEA-HNL. 6+ Hrs Over Water In A 737  
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 940 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 15216 times:
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I started a thread a few months back about Copa's 737 flights to South America, the longest 737 flights in the world, they have a couple of flights blocked for over 7 hours.. I guess they had a few fuel diversions due to winds

I was looking at Alaska Airlines ANC-HNL blocked for 6 hrs 20 mns and SEA-NHL blocked for 6 hrs 15 mns. Not a lot of room for error over water...

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinereffado From Brazil, joined Feb 2012, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 15180 times:

Risky or not, I for one won't ever spend that much time inside a 737. Basically the same reason why I fly JJ to MIA rather than AA. Widebodies for long flights, please. I'm intrigued though, isn't the flight over water restricted in some way?

User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3103 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 15131 times:

Quoting reffado (Reply 1):

Risky or not, I for one won't ever spend that much time inside a 737.

From my point of view, 1:3 chance of a window on a 737, vs. >1:4 chance on a widebody. The seat is the same otherwise. I prefer the narrowbody. So long as it has a movie.

-Rampart


User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4385 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14903 times:

About 737s and long distance;
TK ordered 15 x 739ER (only 151 seats) with extra fuel tanks to start long, thin routes to Africa. Now operating 10 of the type, TK flies to some distant locations from Istanbul, many over 3000 miles.
IST-Mombasa at 3171miles with a block time of 8:45 (I don't know why this long) and the return at 6:45 hours.
There could be longer routes from IST, this one came to mind.
It is not that longer than West bound transcons but being an international flight it is loooong.
I wonder if there is a 3rd pilot on board.


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14875 times:
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Quoting TK787 (Reply 3):

Correct however Turkish airlines' longest 737 flights won't over water...

Has Alaska cancelled any flights to Hawaii due to strong head-winds?

[Edited 2013-02-04 06:46:59]

User currently offlineNobleRT From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 14713 times:

I don't understand the aversion to long flights on narrowbody, especially those lucky ones in biz/first. Unless you want to get up and walk around a lot, you still get the same squarefootage so to speak whether it's got one aisle or two isles.

User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 924 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 14589 times:

I remember the first time I flew a 737 to Hawaii...it was on AQ from SNA-HNL. I couldn't believe I was getting on that 737-700 for that long of flight. After getting on board I realized it was really no different than flying on a 757...used for years to Hawaii and TATL and it was a very nice flight. AS offers a very nice service both in F and Y to Hawaii.

Yes, wide-bodies are nice but on thinner routes they're just not economically practical. You'll see 737's on AS and others to Hawaii for many years to come.

I imagine in the next 5-10 years you'll see AS bite the bullet and start flying 787's or some other smaller widebody. In the summer they fly close to 20x daily SEA-ANC and in the winter 3x daily SEA-HNL so the economics of a bigger plane make sense on some routes. I think they still need to grow a bit more and reach some sort of critical mass before adding another a/c type. I can't wait to see that day and what they could do!


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 14568 times:

Fiji Air Pacific used to fly YVR-HNL-NAN w/B737; so B737 SEA-HNL isn't something out of the extraordinary.
When TAAG Angola DT got B737-700 it was discussed here on a.net that those had the range to fly transatlantic between Angola LAD and North East Brazil (REC/SSA) that would be +/-7h.
Now, if CM was to get B737-700ER and fly transatlantic 10hours between PTY and MAD, that surely would be another thing.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 818 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14430 times:

UA is also flying 738's to ITO and HNL from SFO and LAX. As was said earlier in this thread, I'm afraid that the Boeing 737 and Airbus NEO's are the future for travel to and from the West Coast and Hawaii.


Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
User currently offlinemd3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14329 times:

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 8):
I'm afraid that the Boeing 737 and Airbus NEO's are the future for travel to and from the West Coast and Hawaii.

I would agree and add that, any flight simply needs the most appropriate aircraft for the specific mission. That would be based on historical load information, aircraft efficiency, network needs, etc.

As it's shaking out, and we see more and more of the 73G/73W/739/321Neo placed (or announced) for HI-mainland routes, it just shows what the most appropriate aircraft for the route really is.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9495 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14158 times:

I’ve flown AS’ 737s to Hawaii. I’ve also flown on the 767s of the competition. The 767 2-3-2 seating is far more comfortable if you are flying with one other person, but I wouldn’t spend more money to get it. Hawaii is barely any different than a transcon route. It’s only slightly longer, and people are accustomed to getting a 737 from SEA to any other destination. Basically every domestic city served from SEA is on a 737 or A320 with the occasional 757 from DL and UA. There are almost no regional jets and few domestic widebodies in SEA. Excluding all the Horizon Q400s, 90% of SEA’s landings are on 737s or A320s, so people are used to it.

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
Has Alaska cancelled any flights to Hawaii due to strong head-winds?

When the headwinds get bad on SEA-Hawaii, they will take a fuel stop in OAK. If the range is still a potential problem they will take weight restrictions and offload passengers. This is relatively rare, but a few times a year they do need to stop at OAK. OAK saves about 200 miles off the overwater crossing which can make the difference, but the fuel stop adds 400 more miles, so it is avoided if possible.

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 6):

I imagine in the next 5-10 years you'll see AS bite the bullet and start flying 787's or some other smaller widebody. In the summer they fly close to 20x daily SEA-ANC and in the winter 3x daily SEA-HNL so the economics of a bigger plane make sense on some routes. I think they still need to grow a bit more and reach some sort of critical mass before adding another a/c type. I can't wait to see that day and what they could do!

It’s possible, but AS seems more interested in the 737-900ER than any new type. AS has a very conservative growth strategy. I don’t see them going for the 787.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):

I was looking at Alaska Airlines ANC-HNL blocked for 6 hrs 20 mns and SEA-NHL blocked for 6 hrs 15 mns. Not a lot of room for error over water...

What error? ETOPS rules dictate how much extra fuel is required and stipulates the condition of the airplane prior to dispatch. They can lose an engine halfway to Hawaii and still have enough fuel to limp along on a single engine for 3 hours at 25,000ft. ETOPS requirements force the same fuel reserves for any airplane. Just because a 757 or 767 has more range, doesn’t mean the airlines are filling up the tanks. The weather is almost always perfect in Hawaii so there’s no need for a lot of holding fuel on board. You have the same safety margins on the 737 as any other plane.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13933 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 10):
ETOPS requirements force the same fuel reserves for any airplane. Just because a 757 or 767 has more range, doesn’t mean the airlines are filling up the tanks. The weather is almost always perfect in Hawaii so there’s no need for a lot of holding fuel on board. You have the same safety margins on the 737 as any other plane.



Completely agree, no less safe at all. Even if the weather at HNL was bad, diversion to a neighboring island is quite easy and little if any added distance.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3052 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13831 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
Has Alaska cancelled any flights to Hawaii due to strong head-winds?

Flying ANC-HNL; don't the winds aloft at some point beyond the Gulf of Alaska turn SSW favoring flights and fuel burn into the Hawaiian Islands. The same winds which create the the ginormous waves on Oahu's north and east shores.

We were lead to believe the islands giant waves more-so in Dec-Jan are generated by ocean currents and wind more than a thousand miles offshore.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineasmvpgold From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13618 times:

I flew HNL-SEA on Friday on a new AS 739ER... was a great flight. A million times more comfortable than the old DC10s NWA used on the route many years ago and I thought it was better than UAs old 772s in the config they used to Hawaii about 10 years ago. I agree with others... I don't know why some people think a narrow body flight is all that different than a wide body. It's a plane... they all have the same range when they plan out the proper fuel requirements for the flight and they certainly don't leave the ground without enough to get there as well as diverting somewhere else.


721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,741/2/3/4,752/3,762/3/4,772,DC9/30/50/80/90,DC10,MD11,L1011,F100,319,320,332,CRJ,ERJ,DH8/2/4
User currently offlinerscaife1682 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13347 times:

This only issue I have with NB long haul flight is the long line in Y before arrival. Always nice a long on UA 757 TATL but I am mostly in biz which to me is no different than any other biz cabin.

User currently offlinejetsetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13242 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 3):
IST-Mombasa at 3171miles with a block time of 8:45 (I don't know why this long)

Stops in JRO first - 6:55 flight time to JRO, 1 ground time, then 1 hour flight to MBA


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12386 posts, RR: 47
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13194 times:
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Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
Not a lot of room for error over water...

An ETOPS qualified A320 or 737 has exactly the same 'room for error' as any widebody twin flying the same route.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineValorien From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13136 times:

Only flights from one large population center to another can support and/or substantiate large (widebody) aircraft. The cost per available seat mile (CASM) on a widebody aircraft is less than a full narrowbody aircraft only if the flight is full, so airlines will only deploy widebody aircraft if the demand is large enough to fill a widebody jet.

On flights from one large population center to a smaller population center or small population center to another small population center, narrowbody aircraft may be the only smart choice if the demand isn't there to fill a widebody. In turn, the fares on flights to/from smaller population centers can garnish a premium (higher than average) fare because of passengers willing to pay for the convenience of flying to/from their preferred airport.


User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 12818 times:

6:40 minute block over turf is 6:40 block over surf. The ETOPS bird has had a more rigorus pre-flight than the land bird anyway. Sure, if we "had to land" we could over Montana, but for a medical, which could happen on any size a/c, why would we? The plane doesn't "feel better" and have a better reliability over the ground v/s water.

Ultimately, ETOPS doesn't, in and of itself, have anything to do with water. ETOPS can be over land, too.



My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlinerobsaw From Canada, joined Dec 2008, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 12788 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
An ETOPS qualified A320 or 737 has exactly the same 'room for error' as any widebody twin flying the same route.

Based on ALL the operational and risk factors in play, I'd say that the "error probability" is nominally identical regardless of narrow/wide and 2/3/4 engine aircraft.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9495 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 12652 times:

Quoting B727FA (Reply 18):

Ultimately, ETOPS doesn't, in and of itself, have anything to do with water. ETOPS can be over land, too.

ETOPS does require more fuel to be carried, which makes a narrowbody at the edge of its range a little more challenging. On a SEA-HNL flight, there might be weight restrictions due to the ETOPS rules that wouldn't be there if the flight was over land and had the same winds & same distance filed on the flight plan.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4118 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12082 times:

How do those aircraft differ from a 757? I have flown to HNL from YVR on WS's 738 and it has no first class and every seat is the same. What I don't understand is the aversion to a 6 hour flight over water in a 737 and people don't seem to complain as much to be shoe horned into an ERJ for four hours. You fly from YUL-YVR in what is the same cabin and I never read how it is too small. Personally, I prefer a smaller plane, 130 passengers loads a lot quicker then 300 passengers. I don't have to say what would be preferred by most FF's.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently onlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11985 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 20):
ETOPS does require more fuel to be carried, which makes a narrowbody at the edge of its range a little more challenging. On a SEA-HNL flight, there might be weight restrictions due to the ETOPS rules that wouldn't be there if the flight was over land and had the same winds & same distance filed on the flight plan.

Whether over water or ground makes no difference. ETOPS or EDTO is all about diversion times. Flying over land more than 1 hour from an airport is also a ETOPS flight.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24817 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10935 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 7):
Fiji Air Pacific used to fly YVR-HNL-NAN w/B737; so B737 SEA-HNL isn't something out of the extraordinary.

FJ still operates the 738 HNL-NAN which is almost 400 nm further than YVR-HNL.

WestJet also operates almost 5 daily YVR-Hawaii (HNL/OGG/KOA) nonstops with 738s.


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10260 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
FJ still operates the 738 HNL-NAN which is almost 400 nm further than YVR-HNL.

But that route isn't over open water with no diversion airport on the way.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
25 YULWinterSkies : There is nothing wrong about a 737 flying that far. If anything, it shows how great of an airplane it is. A widebody will indeed have more range, but
26 B737900 : Just last week flew Bellingham-Maui AS 807 on a 738. We were an hour early landing in OGG! Not a bad flight at all in F class. The ac was #512 which i
27 N62NA : It's psychological. Some people prefer being in a larger cabin.
28 mke717spotter : I know its not over water, but I'm thinking AS's ANC-ORD flights must be over six hours as well? Didn't AQ used to fly this route too?
29 Post contains images dc1030cf : reffado: I once flew a DC-10-30 of RG from LAX to NRT in the 9 across Y-class middle seat. Now compare that to even the middle seat on a narrow body
30 n797mx : What about NH 943? That's over 9 hours strapped into a -700ER going to BOM from FUK!
31 Post contains images PassedV1 : This is a very often misunderstood issue with the 737's even amongst pilots who should know better. It is never the actual range of the flight that i
32 HAL : As several people above have noted, any flight more than 1 hour away from a suitable airport requires special ETOPS rules for fuel, and for system re
33 Post contains images AlnessW : I agree with you on both of those matters! Is this because of AS? Or other airlines as well? What was UA's 772 configuration? 2-5-2? I think it reall
34 woodsboy : Just flew to Hawaii and back on AS from Anchorage, ANC-KOA was 5h50 min and KOA-ANC was 5h 32min, perfectly comfortable, as expected. Whats the differ
35 g500 : The diference between being in a wide-body and a narrow-body is that if you have a emergency in a 767/757/A330 and you have to descend half way there
36 ushermittwoch : Have you seen the configuration of those birds?
37 jfk777 : Copa should buy a bigger plane so it can fly to Madrid, other European cities and launch another pioneering flight from Latin America to Tokyo. 787 s
38 max550 : Why would a 737 be spooky while a widebody would be fine? Are you suggesting that a 757, 767 or A330 would be able to fly further on 7 hrs of fuel th
39 checksixx : I guess being a seasoned traveler, I don't consider 6 hours a long haul flight at all.
40 TK787 : Oh yes, remember those? I have done EWR-AMS on a 2-5-2 NW DC-10, middle seat of the 5 across middle section, sucks. Even though my all time average f
41 HiFlyerAS : Did you READ the previous threads? Apparently not. No airline operates an ETOPS flight without enough fuel to operate on one engine in a depressuriza
42 n797mx : 32" pitch economy seats on some of them, although I know they are mostly business set up
43 SEPilot : Just because a widebody CAN carry more fuel does not mean that it always does. To put in in simpler terms than PassedV1 did (not meaning to cast any
44 clydenairways : It's about the same as MAN to the Cape Verde Islands. Don't see what the big deal is?
45 N62NA : It's psychological. Some people prefer being in a larger cabin.
46 atct : Yep thats all it is. Ive flown 737's ANC-IAH (6 hours) and I have no problem with it. Id actually rather fly a CO 752 across the pond vs. a UA 763 in
47 AR385 : But they do go over the Sahara, which is the same, I believe, in terms of ETOPS. Many EU-Asia flights are ETOPS and they are over land, specially whe
48 B727FA : Exactly, ETOPS is NOT about water...
49 cornutt : Yeah, my mom gets claustrophic in a narrowbody. She can tolerate it for an hour or two, but if she had to do, say, ATL-NRT in a narrowbody, she'd nee
50 N62NA : Many people do, and you don't have to officially suffer from claustrophobia. But... psychological factors can make the difference between enjoying a
51 HAL : To repeat what I and several others have said - every ETOPS flight is calculated so that if an engine quits at the worst possible time, there's still
52 HiFlyerAS : Thank you, HAL. Close thread...let's move on.
53 robsaw : Air Canada has flown St Johns to LHR on A319. Granted, that's about a short a route as you can get from NA to Europte.
54 brilondon : ETOPS is how far from an airport you can be if your flight suffers an emergency and they have to land at the nearest airport. That is kind of a neat
55 Viscount724 : Yes, daily starting April 25.
56 Post contains images AlnessW : What are the old and new configurations? Exactly. You've hit the nail on the head!
57 Post contains links IAHFLYR : Here take a look: http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings....-newsArticle&ID=1704267&highlight= http://www.united.com/web/en-US/cont...ht/aircraf
58 Post contains images AlnessW : Thanks! I do not see much difference other than the lack of first class.
59 cornutt : Last night, I was reviewing a book published in 1988 which has a writeup of the Boeing 7J7 project. I had forgotten that the 7J7, among other things,
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