bdak From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 87 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 31642 times:
The BA Source www.thebasource.com is reporting that the BA1/2 Club World London City Service is cancelled for a second day in a row, after the a318 aircraft used to operate the service was damaged at JFK. Does anyone have any idea what happened? Or any pics?
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6618 posts, RR: 17 Reply 2, posted (3 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 31112 times:
Here is the full The BA Source report dated 3 February:
"British Airways A318 G-EUNA sustained damage to its tailfin whilst under scheduled maintenance at New York JFK resulting in the cancellation of BA2 New York JFK – London City today."
SSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 432 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 26976 times:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 2): "British Airways A318 G-EUNA sustained damage to its tailfin whilst under scheduled maintenance at New York JFK resulting in the cancellation of BA2 New York JFK – London City today."
I can't help imagining someone being insistent that A320s fit through a certain hanger door, so an A318 must too.
Continental From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5476 posts, RR: 21 Reply 19, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 19320 times:
Quoting robbb (Reply 11):
A319/A320/A321 tail height is 11.76m
A318 tail height is 12.51m
What kind of hangar are they using? We're talking a difference of 0.75 m (2.46 ft). Is the hangar entrance really that tight?
kjfk527 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 18223 times:
The aircraft is currently parked in American Airlines Hangar 10, Bay # 4. It was in Bay # 6 yesterday and was repositioned today. Their is plenty of space for the A318 in both Bay #4 and Bay # 6 with more than enough clearance for the tail.
The aircraft normally RONs over the weekend on AA hardstand number 3.
I will try and snap a picture of the bird in the hangar tomorrow if it is still there.
N243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1491 posts, RR: 21 Reply 22, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 18220 times:
Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 18): apparently the taller tail is to compensate for the shorter body, not sure but I assume it's a centre of gravity issue
Sort of. It's not for adjusting the location of the center of gravity, if that's what you're suggesting. The shorter fuselage means the stabilizer and rudder are farther from the aircraft's CG and therefore has less of a moment arm to counter any yawing tendency. Without a larger rudder area to compensate, the 318 would be less directionally stable than its larger variants.
ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21025 posts, RR: 60 Reply 23, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 17644 times:
Quoting fca767 (Reply 16): Ohhh...that's funny...i would never have thought that...sorry to ssteve for doubting...
Shortest 737NGs have taller tails. 747SP has taller tail. It's to combat yaw do to wingspan v length being greater.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
BryanG From United States of America, joined May 1999, 418 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 18354 times:
N243NW is exactly correct, from a physics standpoint. It's a moment arm issue. It's not uncommon for shortened airframes to have taller tails in a line of aircraft, and vice versa.
For example the A340-600 has a shorter tail than the A340-500, because of the longer fuselage, therefore a different moment arm.
rojo From Spain, joined Sep 2000, 2395 posts, RR: 10 Reply 25, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 18524 times:
Didn't F9 also learned the difference in tail height between A319 and A318 the hard way?
I remember some news about their A318 not being able to clear DEN's bridge ...
Spacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2735 posts, RR: 1 Reply 26, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 18706 times:
Quoting N243NW (Reply 23): The shorter fuselage means the stabilizer and rudder are farther from the aircraft's CG and therefore has less of a moment arm to counter any yawing tendency.
Actually the rudder is CLOSER to the CG, and has less moment arm.
Speedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 18238 times:
Quoting ezalpha (Reply 21): I believe that's true. Of all 747s, the 747SP has the tallest tail.
It is correct, yes. The A330-200 also has a taller vertical stabilizer than the A330-300 and A340-300 due to it's shorter fuselage, and also has a shorter vertical stabilizer than the A340-200, which has 4 engines and therefore is more stable and has better directional control
Speedbird741
Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
Viajero From Mexico, joined Aug 2008, 119 posts, RR: 0 Reply 28, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 17428 times:
Quoting rojo (Reply 26): Didn't F9 also learned the difference in tail height between A319 and A318 the hard way?
I remember some news about their A318 not being able to clear DEN's bridge ...
They did indeed. Now the remaining A318s In Frontier's fleet have a placard in the cockpit concerning the DEN bridges. I believe the bridge itself has signs on it as well.
BN747dfwhnl From United States of America, joined May 2005, 32 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 15799 times:
Quoting Viajero (Reply 29): I believe the bridge itself has signs on it as well.
platinumfoota From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 14583 times:
Hmmm... Does the 777-200 have a taller tail than a 777-300??
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11113 posts, RR: 63 Reply 31, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13142 times:
Quoting platinumfoota (Reply 31): Hmmm... Does the 777-200 have a taller tail than a 777-300??
Not exactly, only the -200LF and -200F, but I believe that the tail itself is the same size and that the variation is due to other factors. Design shrinks often have the taller tail, hence the A318, B747-SP and early A332s. However there are also exceptions, like the A310, which is shorter.
flyinTLow From Germany, joined Oct 2004, 501 posts, RR: 0 Reply 32, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12484 times:
It is not about the "normal" directional stability, but about being able to compensate the yaw momentum in case of an engine failure. With the same or at least similar engines attatched, you need the same yaw momentum compensation by the tail fin.
Now as momentum is force x arm, when shortening the arm, you have to increase the force somehow. You can do that by increasing the aerodynamic area.
Looking at the A320 family, A319/20/21 all have the same tail fin, but the rudder of the A321 does not deflect as far as the A319 one. On the A318, the deflection was not sufficient, hence the "taller" tailfin with increased "deflectable rudder area".
EagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1612 posts, RR: 2 Reply 33, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12329 times:
Quoting N243NW (Reply 23): It's not for adjusting the location of the center of gravity, if that's what you're suggesting. The shorter fuselage means the stabilizer and rudder are farther from the aircraft's CG and therefore has less of a moment arm to counter any yawing tendency. Without a larger rudder area to compensate, the 318 would be less directionally stable than its larger variants.
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 24): It's to combat yaw do to wingspan v length being greater.
Quoting BryanG (Reply 25): N243NW is exactly correct, from a physics standpoint. It's a moment arm issue. It's not uncommon for shortened airframes to have taller tails in a line of aircraft, and vice versa.
Thanks for the clarification.....I knew the shorter body needed the taller tail but didn't know the physics of it.
skipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2370 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12259 times:
Quoting platinumfoota (Reply 31): Does the 777-200 have a taller tail than a 777-300??
The B777-300 is a stretch whereas the taller tail comes into play with a shrink of the baseline model, like the B747SP, the A330-200 and the A318. It's not just early A332s that have the taller fin, they've all got it.
The B737NG has a bigger tail and wing across all models.
clydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 995 posts, RR: 0 Reply 36, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12292 times:
How is BA coping with one of these aircraft out of service? It's a problem when you have a very small sub-fleet, you have nothing that can replace it directly.
skipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2370 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12223 times:
Quoting BryanG (Reply 25): For example the A340-600 has a shorter tail than the A340-500, because of the longer fuselage, therefore a different moment arm.
Is this right? I thought they were identical. Is the eight inch (seriously?) difference in height not accounted for by the nose down attitude of the shorter body?
gkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24621 posts, RR: 59 Reply 38, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12109 times:
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 37): How is BA coping with one of these aircraft out of service? It's a problem when you have a very small sub-fleet, you have nothing that can replace it directly.
Presumably sending folk in and out of LHR?
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6618 posts, RR: 17 Reply 39, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10629 times:
Quoting bthebest (Reply 14): I thought it was a year round twice daily? (except Saturdays)
The frequency of the LCY-SNN-JFK-LCY rotation is reduced from twice daily to daily during the holiday period in August each year.
In 2012 BA003/04 - the rotation 'NA was operating before it was damaged - did not operate from 29 July to 31 August inclusive. 'NA was at LGW undergoing routine maintenance from 29 July to 8 August. and 'NB followed on 17 August returning to LCY on 3 September.
In 2011 the last BA003/04 rotation was on 31 July and the next 0n 31 August. That year 'NA was undergoing maintenance at LGW from 29 July until 8 August while 'NB was at LGW from 6 to 31 August.
The gap between 8 and 17 August in 2012 when neither aircraft was under maintenance but BNA003/04 did not operate strongly suggests that operating the second flight in August would not be justified by demand. However data published by the CAA for 2011 - full year 2012 numbers have not yet been published - shows that in August 2011 passengers carried on this route (1,234) were significantly more than half the number carried on average in the other elven months of that year (1,853). So unless the August figures are boosted by a weakening in average per passenger yield that month looks to be operationally more profitable.
BA did say when announcing this service that routine maintenance would be carried out in "bite sized chunks" at LGW. These "chunks" are not all in August. It is not unusual for either aircraft to visit LGW for maintenance at other times. For example in 2012 'NA was ferried into and then out of LGW on the following day on six occasions, most usually arriving there on a Saturday and retuning to LCY on the Sunday. However in addition to the August visit there was another longer visit from 5 to 10 April. But this also looks as if it was for planned maintenance as it was from the Thursday before to the Tuesday after the Easter holiday weekend.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19688 posts, RR: 56 Reply 41, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6742 times:
Quoting BryanG (Reply 41): No, I was incorrect, and I stand humbly corrected. Vertical stabilizers on the 340-500/600 have the same dimensions.
Airbus took the vertical stabilizer off the 330-200 and put it on the 340-500/600 - they could have put a different size on the -600 because it's longer, but since they already had a stabilizer that was designed and tested and certified, the cost/benefit analysis just didn't make sense.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Devilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4423 posts, RR: 1 Reply 49, posted (3 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2723 times:
Quoting axelesgg (Reply 47): 737-700 seems like a good replacement, if only LCY were certified for that model
What about an all-premium configured CSeries or Emb-NG? By now, the historical load factors on this service could indicate the optimal seat number and aircraft model.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11113 posts, RR: 63 Reply 50, posted (3 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2583 times:
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 49): What about an all-premium configured CSeries or Emb-NG? By now, the historical load factors on this service could indicate the optimal seat number and aircraft model.
The former is planned and apparently capable non stop both ways, the latter will depend on how the specs firm up as Embraer refine the NG.
Lofty From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 195 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (3 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2241 times:
I understand that the aircraft was in the hanger with a safety wire which the engineers attach themselves to when working at hight. The wire was not removed before the aircraft pushed back and cut into the tail.
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