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BA A318 Damaged At JFK  
User currently offlinebdak From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 89 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 34079 times:

The BA Source www.thebasource.com is reporting that the BA1/2 Club World London City Service is cancelled for a second day in a row, after the a318 aircraft used to operate the service was damaged at JFK. Does anyone have any idea what happened? Or any pics?

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3130 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 33638 times:
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I wouldn't be surprised if it was damaged during pushback. The space over by T7 around gates 1-3 isn't very plentiful


\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7534 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 33555 times:

Here is the full The BA Source report dated 3 February:

"British Airways A318 G-EUNA sustained damage to its tailfin whilst under scheduled maintenance at New York JFK resulting in the cancellation of BA2 New York JFK – London City today."


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 30992 times:
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Where is the second A318 used for ths LCY to JFK flights ?

User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3130 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 30588 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):

G-EUNA is probably operating club World flight 3/4



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1836 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 29725 times:
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Maybe down for MX over the winter. I assume they don't refit it (with those 32 F seats) just for the summer schedule?

User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 29414 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 2):
"British Airways A318 G-EUNA sustained damage to its tailfin whilst under scheduled maintenance at New York JFK resulting in the cancellation of BA2 New York JFK – London City today."

I can't help imagining someone being insistent that A320s fit through a certain hanger door, so an A318 must too.


User currently offlinefca767 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 1763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 28680 times:

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 7):
I can't help imagining someone being insistent that A320s fit through a certain hanger door, so an A318 must too.

A318's are smaller/same size


User currently offlinehoMsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 28491 times:

Quoting fca767 (Reply 8):
A318's are smaller/same size

A318 has a taller tail.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineaudidudi From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 28401 times:

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 5):

Then that would be G-EUNB, as G-EUNA is the aircraft involved the mishap.


User currently offlinerobbb From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 28293 times:

A319/A320/A321 tail height is 11.76m

A318 tail height is 12.51m


User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 28315 times:

Quoting fca767 (Reply 8):
A318's are smaller/same size

Hopefully not said just before shortening one.  


User currently offlinerampbro From Canada, joined Nov 2012, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 28203 times:

Quoting fca767 (Reply 8):
A318's are smaller/same size

That is exactly how this incident occurred.


User currently offlinebthebest From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 27908 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 6):
Maybe down for MX over the winter. I assume they don't refit it (with those 32 F seats) just for the summer schedule?

I thought it was a year round twice daily? (except Saturdays)


User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3130 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 26683 times:
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Quoting audidudi (Reply 10):

Whoops, you're right. Got distracted when I was typing



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlinefca767 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 1763 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 25932 times:

Quoting hoMsar (Reply 9):
A318 has a taller tail.

Ohhh...that's funny...i would never have thought that...sorry to ssteve for doubting... 
Quoting rampbro (Reply 13):
That is exactly how this incident occurred.

They need a warning Label on the hanger or aircraft, warning tail may be taller than they appear  


User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 23423 times:

Quoting bthebest (Reply 14):
I thought it was a year round twice daily?

Yes except normally in August when it goes down to one a day while more heavy maintenance is performed.

This year I believe it is also only operating once a day during some of April - but I don't know why.


User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1836 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 22114 times:
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Quoting hoMsar (Reply 9):
A318 has a taller tail.

apparently the taller tail is to compensate for the shorter body, not sure but I assume it's a centre of gravity issue?


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 22033 times:

The taller tail is probably for better directional stability.


Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineContinental From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5517 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 21757 times:

Quoting robbb (Reply 11):

A319/A320/A321 tail height is 11.76m

A318 tail height is 12.51m

What kind of hangar are they using? We're talking a difference of 0.75 m (2.46 ft). Is the hangar entrance really that tight?


User currently offlineezalpha From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 21177 times:
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Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 19):
The taller tail is probably for better directional stability.

I believe that's true. Of all 747s, the 747SP has the tallest tail.


User currently offlinekjfk527 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 30 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 20661 times:
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The aircraft is currently parked in American Airlines Hangar 10, Bay # 4. It was in Bay # 6 yesterday and was repositioned today. Their is plenty of space for the A318 in both Bay #4 and Bay # 6 with more than enough clearance for the tail.

The aircraft normally RONs over the weekend on AA hardstand number 3.

I will try and snap a picture of the bird in the hangar tomorrow if it is still there.


User currently onlineN243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1632 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 20657 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 18):
apparently the taller tail is to compensate for the shorter body, not sure but I assume it's a centre of gravity issue

Sort of. It's not for adjusting the location of the center of gravity, if that's what you're suggesting. The shorter fuselage means the stabilizer and rudder are farther from the aircraft's CG and therefore has less of a moment arm to counter any yawing tendency. Without a larger rudder area to compensate, the 318 would be less directionally stable than its larger variants.



B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21530 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 20082 times:

Quoting fca767 (Reply 16):
Ohhh...that's funny...i would never have thought that...sorry to ssteve for doubting...

Shortest 737NGs have taller tails. 747SP has taller tail. It's to combat yaw do to wingspan v length being greater.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBryanG From United States of America, joined May 1999, 433 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 20791 times:

N243NW is exactly correct, from a physics standpoint. It's a moment arm issue. It's not uncommon for shortened airframes to have taller tails in a line of aircraft, and vice versa.

For example the A340-600 has a shorter tail than the A340-500, because of the longer fuselage, therefore a different moment arm.


User currently offlinerojo From Spain, joined Sep 2000, 2452 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 20973 times:

Didn't F9 also learned the difference in tail height between A319 and A318 the hard way?
I remember some news about their A318 not being able to clear DEN's bridge ...


User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2930 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 21149 times:

Quoting N243NW (Reply 23):
The shorter fuselage means the stabilizer and rudder are farther from the aircraft's CG and therefore has less of a moment arm to counter any yawing tendency.

Actually the rudder is CLOSER to the CG, and has less moment arm.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineSpeedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 20700 times:

Quoting ezalpha (Reply 21):
I believe that's true. Of all 747s, the 747SP has the tallest tail.

It is correct, yes. The A330-200 also has a taller vertical stabilizer than the A330-300 and A340-300 due to it's shorter fuselage, and also has a shorter vertical stabilizer than the A340-200, which has 4 engines and therefore is more stable and has better directional control  

Speedbird741



Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
User currently offlineViajero From Mexico, joined Aug 2008, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 19891 times:
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Quoting rojo (Reply 26):
Didn't F9 also learned the difference in tail height between A319 and A318 the hard way?
I remember some news about their A318 not being able to clear DEN's bridge ...

They did indeed. Now the remaining A318s In Frontier's fleet have a placard in the cockpit concerning the DEN bridges. I believe the bridge itself has signs on it as well.


User currently offlineBN747dfwhnl From United States of America, joined May 2005, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 18255 times:

Quoting Viajero (Reply 29):
I believe the bridge itself has signs on it as well.

Yes; it does.


User currently offlineplatinumfoota From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17042 times:
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Hmmm... Does the 777-200 have a taller tail than a 777-300??


Never forget United 93
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 15600 times:

Quoting platinumfoota (Reply 31):
Hmmm... Does the 777-200 have a taller tail than a 777-300??

Not exactly, only the -200LF and -200F, but I believe that the tail itself is the same size and that the variation is due to other factors. Design shrinks often have the taller tail, hence the A318, B747-SP and early A332s. However there are also exceptions, like the A310, which is shorter.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineflyinTLow From Germany, joined Oct 2004, 521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14940 times:

It is not about the "normal" directional stability, but about being able to compensate the yaw momentum in case of an engine failure. With the same or at least similar engines attatched, you need the same yaw momentum compensation by the tail fin.
Now as momentum is force x arm, when shortening the arm, you have to increase the force somehow. You can do that by increasing the aerodynamic area.

Looking at the A320 family, A319/20/21 all have the same tail fin, but the rudder of the A321 does not deflect as far as the A319 one. On the A318, the deflection was not sufficient, hence the "taller" tailfin with increased "deflectable rudder area".



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User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1836 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14785 times:
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Quoting N243NW (Reply 23):
It's not for adjusting the location of the center of gravity, if that's what you're suggesting. The shorter fuselage means the stabilizer and rudder are farther from the aircraft's CG and therefore has less of a moment arm to counter any yawing tendency. Without a larger rudder area to compensate, the 318 would be less directionally stable than its larger variants.
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 24):
It's to combat yaw do to wingspan v length being greater.
Quoting BryanG (Reply 25):
N243NW is exactly correct, from a physics standpoint. It's a moment arm issue. It's not uncommon for shortened airframes to have taller tails in a line of aircraft, and vice versa.

Thanks for the clarification.....I knew the shorter body needed the taller tail but didn't know the physics of it.


User currently offlinegkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14793 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 32):
Not exactly, only the -200LF and -200F

Same thing is it not? Or do you mean the 200LR?  



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3254 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14716 times:

Quoting platinumfoota (Reply 31):
Does the 777-200 have a taller tail than a 777-300??

The B777-300 is a stretch whereas the taller tail comes into play with a shrink of the baseline model, like the B747SP, the A330-200 and the A318. It's not just early A332s that have the taller fin, they've all got it.
The B737NG has a bigger tail and wing across all models.

[Edited 2013-02-05 03:25:44]

User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14751 times:

How is BA coping with one of these aircraft out of service? It's a problem when you have a very small sub-fleet, you have nothing that can replace it directly.

User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3254 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14682 times:

Quoting BryanG (Reply 25):
For example the A340-600 has a shorter tail than the A340-500, because of the longer fuselage, therefore a different moment arm.

Is this right? I thought they were identical. Is the eight inch (seriously?) difference in height not accounted for by the nose down attitude of the shorter body?

[Edited 2013-02-05 03:29:19]

[Edited 2013-02-05 03:29:43]

User currently offlinegkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14567 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 37):
How is BA coping with one of these aircraft out of service? It's a problem when you have a very small sub-fleet, you have nothing that can replace it directly.

Presumably sending folk in and out of LHR?



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7534 posts, RR: 17
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13090 times:

Quoting bthebest (Reply 14):
I thought it was a year round twice daily? (except Saturdays)

The frequency of the LCY-SNN-JFK-LCY rotation is reduced from twice daily to daily during the holiday period in August each year.

In 2012 BA003/04 - the rotation 'NA was operating before it was damaged - did not operate from 29 July to 31 August inclusive. 'NA was at LGW undergoing routine maintenance from 29 July to 8 August. and 'NB followed on 17 August returning to LCY on 3 September.

In 2011 the last BA003/04 rotation was on 31 July and the next 0n 31 August. That year 'NA was undergoing maintenance at LGW from 29 July until 8 August while 'NB was at LGW from 6 to 31 August.

The gap between 8 and 17 August in 2012 when neither aircraft was under maintenance but BNA003/04 did not operate strongly suggests that operating the second flight in August would not be justified by demand. However data published by the CAA for 2011 - full year 2012 numbers have not yet been published - shows that in August 2011 passengers carried on this route (1,234) were significantly more than half the number carried on average in the other elven months of that year (1,853). So unless the August figures are boosted by a weakening in average per passenger yield that month looks to be operationally more profitable.

BA did say when announcing this service that routine maintenance would be carried out in "bite sized chunks" at LGW. These "chunks" are not all in August. It is not unusual for either aircraft to visit LGW for maintenance at other times. For example in 2012 'NA was ferried into and then out of LGW on the following day on six occasions, most usually arriving there on a Saturday and retuning to LCY on the Sunday. However in addition to the August visit there was another longer visit from 5 to 10 April. But this also looks as if it was for planned maintenance as it was from the Thursday before to the Tuesday after the Easter holiday weekend.


User currently offlineBryanG From United States of America, joined May 1999, 433 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9311 times:

Quoting gkirk (Reply 39):
Is this right?

No, I was incorrect, and I stand humbly corrected. Vertical stabilizers on the 340-500/600 have the same dimensions.

After further research, this post addressed that issue in detail: A340-500/-600 Vertical Stabilizer? (by GearDownPlease Oct 28 2008 in Tech Ops)


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21634 posts, RR: 55
Reply 41, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9198 times:

Quoting BryanG (Reply 41):
No, I was incorrect, and I stand humbly corrected. Vertical stabilizers on the 340-500/600 have the same dimensions.

Airbus took the vertical stabilizer off the 330-200 and put it on the 340-500/600 - they could have put a different size on the -600 because it's longer, but since they already had a stabilizer that was designed and tested and certified, the cost/benefit analysis just didn't make sense.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 42, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8444 times:

Quoting gkirk (Reply 35):
Same thing is it not? Or do you mean the 200LR?

It's a special low fat variant of the LR  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinesralfalo From Germany, joined Nov 2005, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7495 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

G-EUNA is back in service, currently operating BA001 to JFK

image of fixed tail fin: http://t.co/uRSMnuFw


User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 876 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6848 times:

See - nothing a bit of tape can't fix...

User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7534 posts, RR: 17
Reply 45, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6813 times:

Quoting sralfalo (Reply 44):
G-EUNA is back in service, currently operating BA001 to JFK

It was returned to service on 6 February operating JFK-LCY (B A002).


User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6573 times:

I started the jokes about it being assumed to be no taller than an A320... do we know what actually hit the tail?

User currently offlineaxelesgg From Sweden, joined Jan 2010, 188 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5687 times:

A Privatair 737-700 seems like a good replacement, if only LCY were certified for that model  

User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3254 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5469 times:

Quoting axelesgg (Reply 47):
A Privatair 737-700 seems like a good replacement, if only LCY were certified for that model

Given BA operate seven daily flights from LHR they're not likely to need that.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4839 posts, RR: 1
Reply 49, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5187 times:

Quoting axelesgg (Reply 47):
737-700 seems like a good replacement, if only LCY were certified for that model

What about an all-premium configured CSeries or Emb-NG? By now, the historical load factors on this service could indicate the optimal seat number and aircraft model.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 50, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5043 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 49):
What about an all-premium configured CSeries or Emb-NG? By now, the historical load factors on this service could indicate the optimal seat number and aircraft model.

The former is planned and apparently capable non stop both ways, the latter will depend on how the specs firm up as Embraer refine the NG.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineLofty From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4705 times:

I understand that the aircraft was in the hanger with a safety wire which the engineers attach themselves to when working at hight. The wire was not removed before the aircraft pushed back and cut into the tail.

User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 23):
Shortest 737NGs have taller tails.

All NG's have the same size vertical stab.


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