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Air France Might Start MVD  
User currently offlinePU752 From Uruguay, joined Mar 2005, 584 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6146 times:

According to local media and Uruguayan government, Air France is willing to restart MVD service from CDG via EZE.
Any one got more information regarding this?


Link in Spanish only
http://www.diariolarepublica.net/201...e-llegara-a-montevideo-via-ezeiza/

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDolphinAir747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5951 times:

With 2 airlines about to fly MVD-MAD will Europe-Uruguay yields not drop? Also, wouldn't flying via GIG or a destination not requiring backtracking work better?

User currently offlinePU752 From Uruguay, joined Mar 2005, 584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5902 times:

IB will drop MVD in april, and UX will start MVD-MAD in June, so it'll be just 1 carrier on the Europe-Uruguay market..

User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1119 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5717 times:

Quoting PU752 (Reply 2):
IB will drop MVD in april, and UX will start MVD-MAD in June, so it'll be just 1 carrier on the Europe-Uruguay market..

This announcement should kill off any plans Lopez Mena had with BQB to operate that route. UX is certainly a very experienced operator to markets in South America from MAD and has the added advantage of running a large travel agency network to feed its UX routes.

This decision is a good result for MVD and for UX. They have stated intentions to increase frequencies on the route once it is established as well.

Regarding AF and this topic, the relationship with SkyTeam should favor MVD as well. AF can coordinate with UX and even use this an opportunity to strengthen ties with GOL, which operates POA and GRU from MVD.

AF is committed to South America and is focused on taking advantage of growth in the region.

The soap opera-drama at IB can only benefit the likes of AF and UX, as well as carriers in Latin America, LA, TAM and AV.


User currently offlinereffado From Brazil, joined Feb 2012, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5522 times:

If they're increasing South America, I wonder if we'll see BSB-CDG anytime soon. TAP currently holds all of the BSB-Europe traffic...

User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5273 times:

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 1):
With 2 airlines about to fly MVD-MAD will Europe-Uruguay yields not drop? Also, wouldn't flying via GIG or a destination not requiring backtracking work better?

No, whilst downtime at GIG is longer (10.5 hours vs 9.5 hours) a EZE-MVD is shorter (and cheaper). Moreover, I think yields on GIG - CDG are better than EZE - CDG and thus you don't need the MVD pax on GIG - CDG flights whilst it may be good for EZE-CDG.

Quoting reffado (Reply 4):
If they're increasing South America, I wonder if we'll see BSB-CDG anytime soon. TAP currently holds all of the BSB-Europe traffic...

According some rumours AF intends to start this route somewhere in the 2014/15 timeframe. However, you it remain rumours.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7422 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4855 times:

Quoting reffado (Reply 4):
I wonder if we'll see BSB-CDG anytime soon.

Planned for 2014.

SSA is also planned for 2014 ou 2015.

Doubt to see AF anytime soon in MVD, especially since UX is staring MVD from MAD ...


User currently offlinePlunaCRJ From Uruguay, joined Nov 2007, 574 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4659 times:

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 3):
Regarding AF and this topic, the relationship with SkyTeam should favor MVD as well. AF can coordinate with UX and even use this an opportunity to strengthen ties with GOL, which operates POA and GRU from MVD.

With AR in Skyteam, wouldn´t it be easier to codeshare with AR's flights into MVD from EZE (I am sure convenient schedules from EZE for connections can be arranged) than to start an own flight? I don´t see Skyteam as favouring AF's return (with their own metal) to MVD, but the opposite.



Quoting PDPsol (Reply 3):
The soap opera-drama at IB can only benefit the likes of AF and UX, as well as carriers in Latin America, LA, TAM and AV.

  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, with foreign long haul flight's schedules into EZE, I am actually surprised by the lack of EZE-MVD tags. I know tag-ons are expensive; but surely they are better than having your aircraft parked all day waiting for its evening/night return flight...


User currently offlinePlunaCRJ From Uruguay, joined Nov 2007, 574 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4202 times:

http://airlineroute.net/2013/02/07/af-mvd-s13/

If this is true, it indeed is great news.


User currently offlinemfc From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4194 times:

It is confirmed:

http://airlineroute.net/2013/02/07/af-mvd-s13/



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlinePU752 From Uruguay, joined Mar 2005, 584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4062 times:

Awesome news indeed, more links confirms this

http://www.deplacementspros.com/Air-...tevideo-des-le16-avril_a19666.html


User currently onlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7614 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3781 times:

One of the links clarifies there will be no traffic rights (i.e., there will be no fifth-freedom rights). Does anyone know if AF might apply with the corresponding governments to obtain fifth freedom rights at some point?


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinePU752 From Uruguay, joined Mar 2005, 584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3777 times:

No rights between MVD-EZE, indeed EZE-CDG is not performing as it should, thats why they are seeking MVD seats to fill the service.

User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1119 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3547 times:

Quoting PU752 (Reply 12):
No rights between MVD-EZE, indeed EZE-CDG is not performing as it should, thats why they are seeking MVD seats to fill the service.

This is not surprising, but is very silly, indeed, if it is solely a political decision from Bs.As. to protect AR. One can only imagine what in the world is going on with AR if they cannot/will not agree with their Skyteam partner, AF, to coordinate and operate EZE-MVD to support the AF CDG route.

Whatever can be done to promote traffic to/from MVD should favor everyone, including carriers, passengers as well as facility concession-owner.

Perhaps Skyteam members, UX and AF, can now work together to develop European traffic from other markets in southern Brasil and Argentina. I would imagine GOL would want to participate.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3413 times:

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 13):

This is not surprising, but is very silly, indeed, if it is solely a political decision from Bs.As. to protect AR. One can only imagine what in the world is going on with AR if they cannot/will not agree with their Skyteam partner, AF, to coordinate and operate EZE-MVD to support the AF CDG route.

Probably nothing to do with it. AR itself only flies 1 daily EZE-MVD, which connects solely on its long haul flights. All local pax probably do AEP - MVD (why would one fly from EZE when you have 7 daily on weekdays from AEP?). Probably more to do with AF doesn't want local rights.

BTW does AF also not have interline rights on EZE-MVD?


User currently offlinePlunaCRJ From Uruguay, joined Nov 2007, 574 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 13):
One can only imagine what in the world is going on with AR if they cannot/will not agree with their Skyteam partner, AF, to coordinate and operate EZE-MVD to support the AF CDG route.

Indeed, AR feeding MVD pax into AF at EZE would have been a much more logical choice. As I said before, I am sure schedules could be arranged for easy connections...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think in this route we have to consider the possibility that, after PU's collapse and IB's retreat; and with both MVD airport and UY's government VERY interested in adding new air service to the country; some sort of incentives besides the already announced discount in jet fuel prices could have taken place.

This plus the long down-time of the 777 at EZE, and the route starts to make more and more sense.

Quoting LJ (Reply 14):
All local pax probably do AEP - MVD (why would one fly from EZE when you have 7 daily on weekdays from AEP?). Probably more to do with AF doesn't want local rights.

Why wouldn´t they? AA and UA had (have?) fifth freedom rights on the route. MVD-Buenos Aires still has not fully recovered the capacity it had prior to PU's shutdown.

I really don't see a reason for UY's government to block 5th freedom rights on this route (the more to please AF, the better) If someone is blocking this, IMHO, it is surely Argentina to protect AR.

Regards,


User currently offlineskyteam2000 From Spain, joined Apr 2004, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3321 times:

Air France has comfirm t'he new destination MVD to start on apr 2013.
5/7 a week CDG EZE MVD.


User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1854 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3002 times:

Quoting PU752 (Reply 12):
No rights between MVD-EZE, indeed EZE-CDG is not performing as it should, thats why they are seeking MVD seats to fill the service.

I have real doubts that CDG-EZE is not performing well. Monopoly on this route + packed flights...OK I know that packed doesn't mean profitable but...


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2908 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 17):

I have real doubts that CDG-EZE is not performing well. Monopoly on this route + packed flights...OK I know that packed doesn't mean profitable but...

However, NW13 already sees a downgauge on certain days to a 777-200. Given the current state of the Argentinian economy a downgauge isn´t strange..


User currently offlinedcajet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2848 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 17):
I have real doubts that CDG-EZE is not performing well. Monopoly on this route + packed flights...OK I know that packed doesn't mean profitable but...

The route is performing well, AF has been increasing capacity on it by means of the 77W on certain days of the week. That said, there has been a softening of demand lately, mostly from Europe to South America, product of the crisis that Europe finds itself in. All operators are reporting a dip in demand ex-Europe. Demand from Argentina has softened to a much lesser degree - this time due to the misguided policies of the Kirchner administration. In an nutshell, Argentina's Inland Revenue Agency (AFIP - Administracion Federal de Ingresos Publicos) has been tightening the noose on taxpayers - tax evasion is a national sport in Argentina - as a way to put an artificial lock on the circulation of dollars in the market, dollars that Mrs Kirchner needs to honor the sovereign debt - and with quite a lot of due dates this year, those Benjamins are needed more than ever. Normally dollars are always in ample supply in Argentina and this year should be no exception. But with inflation reaching worrying indicators, Argentines flock to the dollar as a way to protect their savings. Hence the controls over foreign exchange transactions, and who ends up being punished? The traveler...

So, with IB leaving it, MVD becomes an interesting way to help mitigate the market softness on both ends of the Atlantic. Now lets not kid ourselves, MVD is no knight in shining armor - it is a tiny market. Time alone will tell but the moment demand kicks into high gear again in CDG and EZE, more capacity will be needed.

Quote:
Why wouldn´t they? AA and UA had (have?) fifth freedom rights on the route. MVD-Buenos Aires still has not fully recovered the capacity it had prior to PU's shutdown.

I really don't see a reason for UY's government to block 5th freedom rights on this route (the more to please AF, the better) If someone is blocking this, IMHO, it is surely Argentina to protect AR.

Neither UY nor Argentina have denied anything, AF did not request it, period. AF's ultimate goal here is to take people from/to Europe not compete with its Skyteam partner, AR. And if you live in MVD or BUE why would you fly from/to EZE? When AEP or even the ferry is faster when you factor in commute times to the EZE, and to a lesser degree MVD? The only way AF can fill the 777 from/to EZE-MVD is to undercut AR's AEP flights. Not going to happen.

Quote:
This is not surprising, but is very silly, indeed, if it is solely a political decision from Bs.As. to protect AR. One can only imagine what in the world is going on with AR if they cannot/will not agree with their Skyteam partner, AF, to coordinate and operate EZE-MVD to support the AF CDG route.

None of the above nonsense. This reminds me a bit of when Pluna shut down. Oh, it was Argentina's fault. Aerolineas was out to get it from day one. Argentina would not let them fly over PAPIX so the AEP-MVD flight was taking 2 extra minutes. Please. It shut down because its business plan was flawed. Full stop. And in any case, if you really want to find someone who helped way more than AR to send PU to the other side, look a bit beyond Buenos Aires. Yes, past the Andes. That airline (LA) undercut Pluna since day one.

I know blaming AR and Argentina is an easy scapegoat - not this time.

[Edited 2013-02-09 11:38:25]


"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2897 posts, RR: 31
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2802 times:

Great news for MVD and Uruguay. With IB leaving, it seemed that AA would now be the only major global airline serving the market from anywhere outside Latin America. Nice to see that AF will now offer a great connection to/from Europe and a plethora of points beyond!


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

Great news! We will now have two European carriers flying to Europe, who would have thought about this scenario after IB said bye bye to MVD
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 11):
One of the links clarifies there will be no traffic rights (i.e., there will be no fifth-freedom rights). Does anyone know if AF might apply with the corresponding governments to obtain fifth freedom rights at some point?

Yah, they might just give it a shot.

Quoting goldorak (Reply 17):
I have real doubts that CDG-EZE is not performing well. Monopoly on this route + packed flights...OK I know that packed doesn't mean profitable but...

Yeah, I was thinking that as well. AF's CDG-EZE have good loads, which does not always mean profit, but in this case, it does.

Quoting dcajet (Reply 19):
None of the above nonsense. This reminds me a bit of when Pluna shut down. Oh, it was Argentina's fault. Aerolineas was out to get it from day one. Argentina would not let them fly over PAPIX so the AEP-MVD flight was taking 2 extra minutes. Please. It shut down because its business plan was flawed. Full stop. And in any case, if you really want to find someone who helped way more than AR to send PU to the other side, look a bit beyond Buenos Aires. Yes, past the Andes. That airline (LA) undercut Pluna since day one.

I know blaming AR and Argentina is an easy scapegoat - not this time.

While I agree that the demise of Pluna can not solely be blamed on Cristina, LA has barely anything to do with PU's demise. The only real competition PU faced from LA was on MVD-SCL and that's pretty much it, Pluna had very different business plan compared to LA's. They were connecting big cities with secondary cities, secondary cities with secondary cities...etc. Which as we have seen, worked pretty damn well, and brought a lot of passengers. Even so, if someone wants to start an airline based in MVD, this is the only way to make money. Unless you are BQB
The "old Pluna" with the slogan "Todo Pluna para vos" was a joke. But "Todo Pluna para vos" indeed! When I flew them GRU-MVD back in 06, we had the entire 757 for ourselves (me and my family), we were the only ones, a disaster. No wonder O&D was not working at all for Pluna, but that's not surprising! Uruguay is small!
The reasons to Pluna's demise is not the business plan, but many contributing factors:

- Not being granted some flights to Argentina (Argentina - Brazil being the biggest market for Pluna)
- Corruption (being the main one by far)
- Lack of control (leading to the above one)
- Unions (sometimes asking for too much)
- CRJs (Yes unfortunately, the planes themselves, Cargo is a huge business which was completely lost)
- Aerovip (Yes! That was a waste of time and money, I think it was just LeadGate's way of saying "See! We can still get around your obstacles!" to the Argentinian government, which was a stupid idea)
- Unsolved problems from the past (*cough*ex-varig-employees*cough*) 

...from the top of my head.

The PAPIX-story was just something the media picked up quickly and made a huge deal out of it, just like anything Anti-Argentina seems to pick up quick in Uruguay...typical 3rd world-ish, to hate between brother countries.

Anyways, this is nowhere to be discussing this. Hope for the best for AF!



Flying4Ever!
User currently offlinedcajet From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 21):
LA has barely anything to do with PU's demise. The only real competition PU faced from LA was on MVD-SCL and that's pretty much it, Pluna had very different business plan compared to LA's.

With all due respect, but LA undercut PU since day one, pricing wise. As you well say, PU's business plan was to connect the three main markets, Argentina, Brazil and Chile thru MVD. Had not LAN undercut PU wherever they competed, (Brazil /Chile and Argentina /Chile mainly and Uruguay/Chile, Pluna could have fetched much better pricing on these routes. But Lan was not going to have it. So in a sense, LAN just helped send Pluna to the grave faster.

Yes Argentina (not Cristina - she is not the embodiment of Argentina as a state) did make it more difficult too by not giving Pluna access to more cities in its almost natural market - Argentina, and no one is denying that. Just trying to be balanced as it appears for some here that Her Holiness LAN can do no wrong. Look no further than Peru and see the lengths they will go to so as to prevent Star Perú and Peruvian get rights to fly international ex-LIM.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 21):
Which as we have seen, worked pretty damn well, and brought a lot of passengers.

It did bring volume, but at what cost? It killed Pluna. The irony here is that Pluna - and ultimately the State of Uruguay and the Uruguayan taxpayer ended up subsidizing the vacations of one too many Argentines, Brazilians and Chileans. So you tell me if that business plan was not flawed from day one; see how well it worked for Pluna. Ultimately the question the Uruguayans need to ask themselves is that given the small size of the country, the absence of natural barriers that make air transport ideal, the presence of AR, LA, Tam and Gol that will make it almost next to impossible to establish a national airline with any chance of success - aren't they better off served by letting others serve MVD?

Meanwhile, back in Paris...


Best from San Francisco,

[Edited 2013-02-09 15:22:38]

[Edited 2013-02-09 16:14:21]


"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
User currently offlinePDPsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1119 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2410 times:

Quoting dcajet (Reply 22):
Ultimately the question the Uruguayans need to ask themselves is that given the small size of the country, the absence of natural barriers that make air transport ideal, the presence of AR, LA, Tam and Gol that will make it almost next to impossible to establish a national airline with any chance of success - aren't they better off served by letting others serve MVD?
Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 21):
Great news! We will now have two European carriers flying to Europe, who would have thought about this scenario after IB said bye bye to MVD

This is what everyone should be focused on, more carriers, more routes, more traffic and, most importantly, open skies for carriers at MVD.

The fact that two major European Skyteam members, UX and AF, decided to pick up routes to Europe from MVD speaks volumes about Uruguay's attraction as a travel destination. The local market is, indeed, teeny-tiny, but is attractive nonetheless.

The government appears to have learned its lesson, 'policies shall be focused on maximizing routes and traffic to/from MVD'. All other silly policies to 'support' some 'flag carrier' will hopefully go out the window...

With this announcement, MVD will have connectivity to CDG and MAD in Europe, daily connectivity to MIA via AA, and nonstops to other major regional centers, GRU [several daily via TAM and GOL], SCL, AEP, LIM [via AV affiliate TA], PTY [perhaps the most interesting route via CM], and even GIG.

All the major regional carriers serve MVD and their focus should be to now develop AV a bit more, perhaps BOG, or even Brasil, via O6, to compete with TAM and GOL.

The objective is to develop MVD as a leading regional traffic center, complementing the nation's tourist, convention, business, finance and nascent energy industries.

Surely, AF evaluated this carefully before announcing the route. In addition, AF is initiating the route right after its travel partner, Sofitel, inaugurates its beautiful, newly-renovated Hotel Carrasco and Casino!

http://www.sofitel.com/gb/hotel-7969...spa-opening-march-2013/index.shtml


User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4584 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2127 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 17):
I have real doubts that CDG-EZE is not performing well


My same thoughts.
I don't manage accurate figures trying to dispute that statement. However, the mentioned tag-on makes sense if the yields on the CDG-EZE are not being injured.
On the other hand, SkyTeam grouping also flies KL AMS-EZE 3x weekly.




.

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 23):
PTY [perhaps the most interesting route via CM],


Please, explain.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
25 LJ : When asked why KL didn't introduce the 4th weekly frequency on AMS-EZE they replied "dimishing demand due to the economic climate in Argentina". I do
26 PDPsol : More than any other carrier in Latin America, CM has made a strategic bet on linking North and South America via a central hub, PTY. CM is a new Star
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