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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013  
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15378 times:

I've seen a few of my F9 friends on Facebook post about wishing their co-workers well and such due to the pending announcement today. Some people are saying they hear it's not good news. Anyone know what's up? Hoping for the best as I know a bunch of great people at that airline.

158 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 14583 times:

I'm going with its nothing...because with F9 it honestly never is.

Going with the rumors its a new animal debute...

Unless with this new lcc strategy NK has something to do with the news   


User currently offlinecotparampguy From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 14500 times:

I just read that they are outsourcing every station except DEN. Sad.

User currently offlinetsra From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 14502 times:

They are outsoursing all outstations.

User currently offlinedabpit From United States of America, joined May 2012, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 14384 times:
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anyone have the link to the article?


Carpe Diem
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 14381 times:

I just verified this info from a former colleague in one of the stations. Said they found out today. Crazy.

User currently offlinedabpit From United States of America, joined May 2012, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 14209 times:
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That is sad. Business is Business but not every decision is a good one. What is going to happen to all the workers?
I think customer service will suffer greatly.



Carpe Diem
User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 14213 times:

wow boy was I wrong and underestimated this.

F9 was just hiring for the city I live in too. Their turnover rate is pretty bad here and most wanted to get out and on board with any other airline here. But the seasoned employees obviously weren't leaving with the seniority they have. When does this come into effect? I would like to know how long I have to swing by and get reaction from employees there.

Does NK do this as well?

EDIT: so does that mean this was unknown throughout the entire airline except for maybe HQ and the higher up Personal? If not then What gives with F9 still having jobs on their website for Customer Service at various Airports?

Good luck to everyone at F9

[Edited 2013-02-05 13:09:49]

User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13990 times:

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 7):
When does this come into effect?

I heard it begins in April and will be completed by the end of the year.


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9518 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13935 times:

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 7):
What gives with F9 still having jobs on their website for Customer Service at various Airports?

standard operating procedure. No different than a company posting jobs when it's already been filled by some employee's sister, etc. etc.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13914 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 8):
I heard it begins in April and will be completed by the end of the year.

Thats too bad this is happening. I had some nice conversations while working at SEA (for another airline) with a few of those workers. They already cross train their employees. Its hard to imagine they need to save that much more by outsourcing it. No offense but F9 isn't even close to the highest paying airlines out there for customer service and raises are frozen from what I remember. Does anyone know what the employees get? Do they get any kind of settlement or are they just out of luck with a couple months notice to find a new job?


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13860 times:

This is what someone posted on FlyerTalk. Take it for what it's worth. They might as well not even call the airline Frontier anymore. Just rebrand it to Republic and let history take its course.

-------------

1) All stations, with the exception of DEN, are going to be outsourcing employees in above and below wing operations

2) All General Managers are let go, with the exception of DEN

3) F9/Republic is working with the new company to see about hiring current F9 employees

4) DEN is under review as to whether or not they will be outsourced. Future is unclear.

5) The Republic Finance department is largely behind this decision.


User currently offlinemci10 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13737 times:

Sad news indeed. Have many good friends there. I heard they will get a serance but not sure what it is.

User currently offline727tiger From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13719 times:

This is very concerning news to me. I have a real soft spot for F9, and I really want it to succeed. I and my family have flown it whenever we could. Our F9 flight/connection options are more limited out of Branson, but we've flown F9 out of MCI some, too. Was looking to see what options it might present for a trip we're taking 7/11-7/20. That part of the flight schedule hasn't opened yet for reservations. Will have to see what develops, I guess.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13634 times:
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Quoting 727tiger (Reply 13):
This is very concerning news to me. I have a real soft spot for F9, and I really want it to succeed.

To succeed, especially as a separated airline from Republic, Frontier has to reduce costs. It is quite expensive to staff a station with only two or three flights a day.

In terms of the schedule, nothing changes.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13516 times:

The big problem I have with it (in addition to the many jobs lost) is the inconsistency it will create. F9 staff in DEN. Non-F9 staff everywhere else. Poor.

User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2413 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13513 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
It is quite expensive to staff a station with only two or three flights a day.

That is all there is to it. the airline does not have sufficient heft at their stations to maintain that type of expense. It is too bad for the employees, but healthy for the company.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13473 times:
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Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 16):
That is all there is to it. the airline does not have sufficient heft at their stations to maintain that type of expense. It is too bad for the employees, but healthy for the company

  

It's tough for the affected staff, no question, but some 60% of the outstations are already outsourced, as here:


ABQ (RAMP)
ANC
AUS
AZA
BIL
BIS
BKG
BLI
BMI
BNA (RAMP)
BZN
CID
CLE
CMH
COU
CUN
CVG
CZM
DRO (RAMP)
DSM
DTW (RAMP)
FAI
FAR
FLL
FSD
GEG
GRR
GSO
GTF
HUX
IAH
JAC
LIR
LIT
MBJ
MCO (RAMP)
MDT
MOT
MSN (RAMP)
MSP (RAMP)
MSY
OKC
ORD
PDX (RAMP)
PHF
PHL (RAMP)
PSP
PUJ
PVR
RDU
RFD
RSW
SBN
SHD
SJD
SJO
SNA (RAMP)
STL (RAMP)
TPA
TTN
TYS

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offline727tiger From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13415 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
To succeed, especially as a separated airline from Republic, Frontier has to reduce costs. It is quite expensive to staff a station with only two or three flights a day.

The business-related justification for it is sound. You have to cut costs. Just seems like another step in the direction most of us would hate to see it go.


User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13401 times:

If they outsource everywhere eventually who do you say you work for if you are one of those outsourced employees? Everyone would work for F9 essentially right? The entire airline is going to be served by people who don't work for Frontier??   Its kinda comical because its like a big circle...unless there is something preventing these outsourced employees from making a certain amount so payroll is never high eventually wont F9 be in the same situation they are in now? I know their checks wont say Frontier but unless that is in place this isn't a longterm fix...I assume that it is though and wages will be bare minimum and Needless to say customer service will leave alot be desired because of it. Long live F9

User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13353 times:

Frontier was always known for great customer service. That leads to repeat business. Having every outstation run by vendors and keeping F9 staff in Denver is just basically throwing in the towel in terms of a consistent, genuine experience for the passengers. They will experience two different levels of service, no matter how hard the company strives for consistency. And while I have no proof, I guarantee you Dave Siegel said something to the effect of "This was not a decision that we made lightly." Isn't it easy to say that when it doesn't directly affect you? All I can say is that I hope passengers remember how great Frontier used to be. Things will be different going forward, no matter the spin.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13314 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 20):
All I can say is that I hope passengers remember how great Frontier used to be.

And that Frontier went bankrupt.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13247 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
And that Frontier went bankrupt.

Great in terms of customer service...the basics. They did the basics better than most anyone. The people make the airline. Now you're getting sort of a Spirit/old Frontier hybrid. Very strange.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13224 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 22):
Great in terms of customer service...the basics. They did the basics better than most anyone. The people make the airline. Now you're getting sort of a Spirit/old Frontier hybrid. Very strange.

Maybe, but Frontier has not made a full year profit since 2003. The CEO says it will report a full year profit in 2012.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinespinkid From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13186 times:

What are their largest stations outside Denver?

I generally hate outsourced stations. I understand the economics of it, but the customer service is terrible. There is no incentive to provide quality customer service.


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 13919 times:

Dave Siegel was brought in to cut costs. He was brought in at US for the same reasons. He did the job he was suppose to, but at the expense of employee morale. Everyone disliked him there, and he appears to be on the same path here at F9. The F9 folk should know he was brought in for a reason. Just like Menke was brought in for his leadership of guiding a company through bk, (as later seen at Pinnacle doing the same role) every CEO is brought in for a reason.



Most of these make sense, with the exception of places like LAS, LAX, PHX, etc. Maybe to guarantee certain rates with a 3rd party operator, they had to include so manu positions.


User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13804 times:

One answer to not contracting out the regional flying is to contract out the personnel outside the plane.

Sort of the inverse of a wet-lease.

Sort of similar to a McDonalds franchise. Use the name, staff your own location.

This may be the way of the future for other airlines. It may be a wash for employees if they end up being hired by an outsourced organization. Maybe they'll manage the employees better?

-Rampart


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14165 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 25):
Just like Menke was brought in for his leadership of guiding a company through bk, (as later seen at Pinnacle doing the same role) every CEO is brought in for a reason.

That's not my understanding of why he was brought into Frontier. And at Pinnacle, he didn't guide it through Chapter 11 - he quit.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13811 times:

Sad to see though no different then what other airlines have done to save a dime.
VS outsourced all the stations in the United States several years ago and they survived. I understand though I don't agree your going to get what you pay for and or not pay for.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineTWA1985 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13776 times:

I assume that Chicago will keep F9 staff for the pilot and FA bass there, correct?

User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13741 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 23):
Maybe, but Frontier has not made a full year profit since 2003. The CEO says it will report a full year profit in 2012.

All I'm saying is that I believe customer service will go down the toilet and that customer retention will become that much more difficult. No more, no less.


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5724 posts, RR: 24
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13765 times:

Quoting dabpit (Reply 6):
That is sad. Business is Business but not every decision is a good one. What is going to happen to all the workers?
I think customer service will suffer greatly.

What customer service? I've flown them on 8 segments from October through December last year between SLC and STL, and lemme tell ya, I for one will NOT miss a single one of the ground agents. Good bye and good riddance. Now if the airline itself would just fold its wings, I can cash in on my short sells in Republic.



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 143 posts, RR: 12
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13705 times:

With all due respect to the affected F9 employees, I have had great customer service from some of their contract locations. I even said to myself that the F9 employees in DEN could learn a lesson about customer service from some of their contractors. There actually IS an incentive for the contractors to provide a good, reliable service. If they don't, F9 won't renew their contracts.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 33, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13754 times:
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Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 31):
Good bye and good riddance. Now if the airline itself would just fold its wings, I can cash in on my short sells in Republic.

You're short RJET? Oh, gosh.

Good luck with that.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineglobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 953 posts, RR: 3
Reply 34, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13653 times:

Very sad indeed! Does anyone know how the future TTN bookings are looking? COS did not last long as a "mini-hub" and I fear that TTN will not either.


Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 35, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13563 times:
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Quoting globalflyer (Reply 34):
Does anyone know how the future TTN bookings are looking? COS did not last long as a "mini-hub" and I fear that TTN will not either.

As I posted on a.net at the time, within a week of bookings opening for TTN-MCO it became one of the fastest booked routes I had ever seen at Frontier and it seems to be holding up.

February and March TTN bookings look very good.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineazstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13350 times:

Just another example of a US company that views employees as liabilities rather than assets. It's sad, and very poor business, for a business that depends on employees to operate. The only airline that doesn't have this philosphy is Southwest, and look at their financial performance vs all the rest.

User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13305 times:

I feel so sorry for the F9 staff here at MSP. They are all so nice. For some of them, this is their 3rd or 4th airline layoff. One lady there used to work for Sun Country (version 1), then after they shut down got hired by ATA, then got hired by Frontier after ATA shut down and now she is screwed again. Even the station manager is the former Champion Air station manager. If I hear about any openings I will be sure to let them know. The airline industry sucks...

User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 963 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13223 times:

Sad to see this news. I will miss the F9 employees at my station. They are our neighbors and always have helped each other out... But it is also understandable. F9 is going the ulcc route so why not operate like NK and G4... Various airport service companies and other airlines will become F9 pretty much all over the country...

Best of luck F9 employees affected by this



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13059 times:
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F9 outsources at SBN to DGS. The same people who work the Delta Connection flights work the Frontier flight. The DGS employees who work at SBN are outstanding. At airports where they have only 3 or 4 flights a week such as SBN this will make no difference.

User currently onlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 12718 times:

So does this mean even the pilots and the flight attendants?

User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5310 posts, RR: 1
Reply 41, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 12272 times:

Quoting azstar (Reply 36):
Just another example of a US company that views employees as liabilities rather than assets. It's sad, and very poor business, for a business that depends on employees to operate.

It's not that U.S. companies want to view employees as liabilities. It's that corporate raiders like Carl Icahn and Norman Peltz see a company doing poorly, buy a large position, then pester management to either improve company performance or threaten a proxy fight for seats on the board.

Remember that Wall Street still thinks that WN needs to charge for checked bags and snacks the way most other carriers do. Never mind that WN has picked up market share from other carriers, because it still offers free checked bags.

It seems that investors want to buy a stock today and see it double its price in 6 months. No one is willing to sit through a 5-year turnaround plan.


User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 12218 times:

Any word on what contractor(s) were awarded all these stations? Who currently handles F9 in TTN?


My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 43, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11914 times:

Quoting azstar (Reply 36):
Southwest, and look at their financial performance vs all the rest.

Is F9 unionized? I've not seen a peep about some union screaming bloody murder. On the brighter side, nonrev benefits for DEN employees just got better.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 44, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11584 times:

Ok, Im the odd guy out here-What do you mean by outsourced? What is being outsourced ?


Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineWingtips56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11503 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 44):

Ok, Im the odd guy out here-What do you mean by outsourced? What is being outsourced ?

Ìn this case it means throwing away your employees and contracting with another company to provide the ground handling.



Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines
User currently offlinenutsaboutplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 510 posts, RR: 8
Reply 46, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11361 times:

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 45):
Ìn this case it means throwing away your employees and contracting with another company to provide the ground handling.



While I agree with your assessment in the most simplistic terms......what it really means is that Frontier/ Republic has realized that the future of the company rests upon the ability of the organization to reduce costs. "Throwing away" employees is never an easy decision especially on a scale such as this. The decision to outsource even one station is a painful choice for a leadership team to make and it is, in almost every case, a last ditch effort to reduce costs and generate financial stability for a particular city pair or in this case, the airline as a whole.

While many will lose their jobs, many others will retain their job as a result. It would not be far fetched in my opinion for Frontier to simply close its doors and cut its losses........management is trying to salvage a sinking ship.



American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 47, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11201 times:

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 46):
in almost every case, a last ditch effort to reduce costs and generate financial stability for a particular city pair or in this case, the airline as a whole.

Help me with how outsourcing stations with two flights a day - something most other carriers did years ago - is necessarily "last ditch." I don't see it.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 48, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10626 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
Something to chew on...even crappy Spirit has its own employees at some outstations. Yes, Spirit, the airline everyone hates.

How many daily flights does NK have at the smallest outstation with NK staff?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 49, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10659 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
Amen. I experience it all the time flying DL and UA. There is no comparison for actual airline employees. And as many of noted, one of Frontier's best features is its customer service. Good luck F9 with minimum wage slackers who don't know the intricacies of abnormal operations.

I called them out on FB about it, and I got a pretty generic reply about how all the vendors will be trained like current staff. I hope they really don't believe that will somehow negate the fact that these people have no real dedication to the airline...no incentive to excel, to go above and beyond, to really give a damn...because they are paid bottom of the barrel wages and are offered little in terms of benefits from the handling company itself, and nothing from the airline. And as someone said previously, turnover is incredibly high. Frontier is treading into dangerous territory here.


User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 143 posts, RR: 12
Reply 50, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10583 times:

Many of you have ignored the list posted in reply 17. Most F9 cities are already outsourced, so the customer service sky hasn't fallen yet. I find that contractors have more to lose so they go out of their way to do a good job. I have flown F9 out of PHF and been checked in by US. I have flown F9 to GRR and been checked in by AA Eagle. I have flown F9 out of SBA and been checked in by AA Eagle who were also checking in AS and AA at the same time. I have flown F9 to FAI, ANC, SJO, CUN, etc and have received great service from the contractors. Some of the best service I've ever received is by the contractors at BKG. It wasn't that long ago that US ground handled F9 in LAS or CO worked their flights at DFW.

F9 has economies of scale in DEN so it makes sense to have their own employees there. It wasn't that long ago that AS outsourced their entire ramp at their hub in SEA to Menzies. It supposedly saved them $13 million a year. AS outsources the ramp work in most of their cities.

Google Southwest Airlines and outsourcing and see what you get. Most airlines outsource some type of work.

This is not your grandpa's airline. F9 is becoming a ULCC and it must get its cost down to a level so that it can compete with any airline out there. This is certainly not desperation as insuated by some posters. Big business isn't always pretty.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 51, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10428 times:
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Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 46):
It would not be far fetched in my opinion for Frontier to simply close its doors and cut its losses........management is trying to salvage a sinking ship.

Um - you do understand that Frontier is operating profitably and will report a full year profit for the first time since 2003?

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
God bless you, because your positive reaction to this is as expected as the sun rising from the east. If Frontier were to announce they were putting a giant turd on their tails tomorrow, you'd like the move.

And bless you, too.  

I wonder what is inaccurate in anything I have posted in this thread?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 52, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10367 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 50):
I hope they really don't believe that will somehow negate the fact that these people have no real dedication to the airline...no incentive to excel, to go above and beyond, to really give a damn...because they are paid bottom of the barrel wages and are offered little in terms of benefits from the handling company itself, and nothing from the airline.

You are painting with far too broad a brush. Remember a little airline called YX that was renowned for its customer service? News flash - they outsourced most outstations. In BNA, at least toward the end, MQ handled them. There's good outsourcing (save money but enforce standards) and bad outsourcing (spend as little as possible). It's hard to know which path F9 will choose.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5125 posts, RR: 28
Reply 53, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10402 times:

Time to chime. I have been gritting my teeth all day. And I am going to vent. What happened today has been planned for over a year. Cliff left because he knew he could not watch this happen. Bryan Bedford continues to thump his bible, and sell his soul to the devil. I was once a fan of Bedford, but now I see him as another greedy CEO. And please, dont take the time to correct me, or explain to me that this is good business. It will only piss me off more. Many of my friends got knocked to their knees today, and many tears have been dripping. Some of you just crunch numbers, and applaud this move, without giving one shit about the hundreds of lives hurt by this.

Frontier is not a whole different animal anymore. None of the core values of this airline are valid anymore. And sadly, the animals have no character anymore. I have seen many dreams destroyed. Many routes cut. Pathetic leadership come and go. This airline once cherished its guests. Now it cherishes every ancillary fee that passenger pays. Dont expect anymore good customer service, as it is on its way out. I cant defend the airline anymore. I cant cheerlead and argue that this airline will survive. I am jumping ship, and admitting that this airline has officially started taking on water. The ship has hit the iceberg, and it is on borrowed time.

Sorry all.. I am very emotional over this.... Again... Please dont quote me and try sugar coating it. I wont eat sugar coated crap. Nor am I in the mood to argue dollars and cents.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 54, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10310 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 50):
I called them out on FB about it, and I got a pretty generic reply about how all the vendors will be trained like current staff.

What - exactly - did you expect?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 55, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10303 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
Most F9 cities are already outsourced,

28 left to go. Some bigger stations, too.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
so the customer service sky hasn't fallen yet

Not yet, but it will once they all get transitioned.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
. I find that contractors have more to lose so they go out of their way to do a good job

Maybe cleaning crews. I haven't experienced a time when a contract agent checking me in or working the gate is better or even equal to an airline employee, and I've flown on 40 airlines and have visited 79 airports.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
F9 has economies of scale in DEN so it makes sense to have their own employees there.

So the fact that DEN is all F9 and every other city will be non-F9 is okay with you? It's called inconsistent.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
Most airlines outsource some type of work.

Pretty sure that's a well known fact.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
This is certainly not desperation as insuated by some posters.

Only people that would know that are probably DS and BB. Otherwise it's all speculation.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 51):
Big business isn't always pretty.

Nope. It's ruthless. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it.


User currently offlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10281 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
God bless you, because your positive reaction to this is as expected as the sun rising from the east. If Frontier were to announce they were putting a giant turd on their tails tomorrow, you'd like the move.

Too funny!
I almost choked on my diet coke when I read that I was laughing so hard.

This move should be good for the likes of most other airlines.

Wasnt Republic a company that provided outsourcing one time at a bunch of midwester stations?


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 57, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10225 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 55):
What - exactly - did you expect?

I expected what I got, basically.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 58, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10219 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 56):
Only people that would know that are probably DS and BB. Otherwise it's all speculation.

No, it is not. It is public knowledge on Wall Street.

And odd that you would not include the CEO in your list.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 59, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10210 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 53):
You are painting with far too broad a brush. Remember a little airline called YX that was renowned for its customer service? News flash - they outsourced most outstations. I

YX was renowned for its inflight service moreso than its ground service I'd say.

I don't think even Spirit outsources all of its outstations.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 60, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10157 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
No, it is not. It is public knowledge on Wall Street.

And odd that you would not include the CEO in your list.

Ok...so it's public knowledge.

Not odd...BB and DS were just the first names that came to my mind. That's about it.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 61, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10114 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 60):
YX was renowned for its inflight service moreso than its ground service I'd say.

Maybe so, but isn't the same true of Frontier? I don't think anyone is really renowned for its ground service.

I never had a bad experience on the ground on YX, and the closest I came to bad experiences were probably all in MKE.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1016 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10146 times:

I worked for a dying airline back in the '80s. We all had a blind eye to what was happening around us....until eventually they gave us one week notice that the company was closing. F9 employees....ground and air...should start their job search now. The writing is on the wall for you...don't wait until the bitter end.


Next trip...DL RJ SEA-LAX/AM LAX-MEX Dec 23
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 63, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10039 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 62):
Maybe so, but isn't the same true of Frontier? I don't think anyone is really renowned for its ground service.

A long time ago maybe. Inflight service has gone downhill over the past few years, but it has always been, at least, consistent. Renowned might be too strong a word for ground service, but I'm sure you'd agree that some airlines stick out in your mind as better than others in customer facing areas...or at least used to be.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 64, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10099 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 61):
Not odd...BB and DS were just the first names that came to my mind. That's about it.

The CEO is the most important person is this process. He sees it differently from you:

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...rlines-posted-third-quarter-profit

"Frontier Airlines posted third quarter profit

Frontier Airlines, a subsidiary of Republic Airways Holdings, reported a third quarter pre-tax income of $29.8 million on Thursday. This marks a vast improvement over its pre-tax loss of $1.5 million posted for the same quarter last year."


On December 31st, 2012, guidance was raised for Frontier's 4Q margins and the RJET stock has gone from (about) $5.60 to $8.50 in that month.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-05 19:31:55]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 65, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9933 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
The CEO sees it differently from you:

I'm happy they made a profit.

That being said, I do not support this move, regardless of the positive financial impact it may have. The money saved could end up being money lost if people are put off by the new brand of Frontier customer service which is on its way, and choose to go to other carriers. I can't and won't blindly endorse flying F9 like I have for many years. My two cents.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 66, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9902 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 66):
That being said, I do not support this move, regardless of the positive financial impact it may have.

I got that - many times over.

But - however you feel - the primary responsibility of the airline is to its shareholders and its primary function is to be profitable.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 17
Reply 67, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9906 times:

60% of F9's cities are already outsourced. That is a point that so many keep dismissing. When was the last time F9 opened a city with its own employees? Why would the customer service suddenly deteriorate when the remaining non-DEN small cities also go contract?

Supposedly, F9 is offering severance packages to the affected employees, which it doesn't have to do. All of the remaining cities will be phased in, and the employees will get up to 12 weeks notice.

F9's business model has changed. They no longer fly multiple frequencies every day of the week to every destination. They now fly seasonal, sub daily flights. It's simply too expensive to maintain staff, training, recruiting, benefits, ground equipment, etc. in cities with 1 flight a day or 3 flights a week. In order to make it attractive to the ground handling companies of the world F9 had to offer the larger LAX's and DFW's along with the smaller field stations like FLL and BNA.

It is very sad for the affected ground employees, but in reality, the major faces of F9 will still be there. As the majority of passengers now check in online, is it really that important who they drop their checked baggage off with? Most managers will still be there and will have even more important roles as they become like regional managers with feet on the ground overseeing contractors and ensuring F9 standards. The trainers are still F9. The DEN hub is still F9. Maintenance, reservations, pilots and flight attendants are still F9. With all due respect to my fellow customer service employees on the ground, flight attendants spend the most time with passengers and are truly the face of any airline. None of that has changed.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 68, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9857 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 67):
But - however you feel - the primary responsibility of the airline is to its shareholders and its primary function is to be profitable.

Of course it is. And if they feel that decreasing the quality of their product will lead to profitability, more power to them.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 69, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9831 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 69):
Of course it is.

I'm glad you understand that.

For the longest time, people saying that Frontier was doomed because it wasn't making money. It is bizarre that people are now saying it is doomed because it is making money.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-05 19:50:02]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineIllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9778 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 54):
I was once a fan of Bedford, but now I see him as another greedy CEO.

Amen brother! I tried preaching to the choir but it fell on deaf ears!


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 71, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9664 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 70):
I'm glad you understand that.

And, monetary issues aside, I take it you understand that this move probably won't have a positive impact on Frontier passengers, correct? Especially folks who travel a lot.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 72, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9589 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 72):
And, monetary issues aside, I take it you understand that this move probably won't have a positive impact on Frontier passengers, correct? Especially folks who travel a lot.

Because I don't believe it will. But if you think customer service at outsourced MSY is inferior, it's odd that you haven't mentioned it before.

And I'm sure the outsourced staff at MSY would be interested to know that's what you think.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 143 posts, RR: 12
Reply 73, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9517 times:

MSYTristar - Can you agree that frequent travelers probably check in online and print their boarding passes at home? Or they stop at a kiosk? How much of the overall travel experience is really dedicated to dropping off a checked bag at the counter? Is it not more important where Frontier flies, what it's policies and fares are or what the inflight experience is like? Does any of this really matter if there is no F9? I certainly don't think passengers are flocking to EasyJet, Spirit and Allegiant because their ticket counter experience is so joyful.

All any of you need to do is to look at all of the current F9 contracted cities, like MSY, and ask yourself has anything changed for F9's passengers? What has changed is F9 is currently profitable.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 74, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9495 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 73):
But if you think customer service at outsourced MSY is inferior, it's odd that you haven't mentioned it before.

Why would that be odd? I have not flown F9 out of MSY since 2005. My trip to TTN earlier this week was canceled.

Quoting mariner (Reply 73):
And I'm sure the outsourced staff at MSY would be interested to know that's what you think.

Well I can't speak for something I haven't experienced. Like I mentioned earlier, I rarely have experienced a time when outsourced staff was as up to par with everything as airline staff was. Perhaps things are different in your neck of the woods.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 75, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9447 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 74):
MSYTristar - Can you agree that frequent travelers probably check in online and print their boarding passes at home? Or they stop at a kiosk? How much of the overall travel experience is really dedicated to dropping off a checked bag at the counter? Is it not more important where Frontier flies, what it's policies and fares are or what the inflight experience is like? Does any of this really matter if there is no F9? I certainly don't think passengers are flocking to EasyJet, Spirit and Allegiant because their ticket counter experience is so joyful.

All any of you need to do is to look at all of the current F9 contracted cities, like MSY, and ask yourself has anything changed for F9's passengers? What has changed is F9 is currently profitable.

I agree that less time is spent at the counter. But there's been a huge push to get as many bags checked as possible, and that involves a lot of interaction with passengers who are at the kiosk and try to go right to the gate with a a large bag that will have to be gate checked. And then at the gate, there is more customer interaction than there ever has been. So I think the overall quality of the employee is still paramount, and seasoned travelers can certainly tell the difference between people who want to be there and people who are just there for a check.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 76, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9427 times:

I rarely if ever have to go to the counter and when I do, it is just to drop off my bag and to say hello. I believe that would be the reason that airlines are using the kiosks and have on line check in where you can print boarding passes and get seat assignments. I can see why the airlines are doing this and the blame should be put on the passengers who demand low ticket prices. It is a competitive market for sure and any way the airlines can reduce their costs, they are doing it.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 77, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9375 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 74):
All any of you need to do is to look at all of the current F9 contracted cities, like MSY, and ask yourself has anything changed for F9's passengers?

I still think it's going to be a huge consistency issue once all the stations are outsourced while DEN will not be. We can agree to disagree.


User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 78, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9373 times:

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 68):
With all due respect to my fellow customer service employees on the ground, flight attendants spend the most time with passengers and are truly the face of any airline. None of that has changed.

That couldn't be any more false. Anytime a passenger has a problem it is always the CSA that handles it. Delayed flight? CSA. Cancelled flight? CSA. Change flight? CSA. Stranded overnight in a strange city? CSA. Ticketing issue? CSA. Lost bag? CSA. Family seated all over the plane? CSA. What major customer service issues do F/As completely handle on their own without the assistance of the CSA?



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 79, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9380 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 75):
I have not flown F9 out of MSY since 2005.

Oh, well, in that case, Frontier has been outsourced at MSY for a very long time. It doesn't seem to have had any adverse effect.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 75):
Perhaps things are different in your neck of the woods.

I can't say. I seldom use the check-in desk - it's almost all self service in my neck of the woods, no lines, quick and easy - and I never know whether staff are outsourced or not, nor do I see any reason to ask.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-05 20:32:37]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 80, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9289 times:

I think we knew this was on the way a few months ago.

I posted in one of the Frontier threads they had been quietly seeking handling binds in large stations like LAX and SFO while not back filling some vacant positions.

Now it makes sense.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemci10 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8951 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
No wonder why Cliff VanLuven escaped a few months ago. This was coming down the line...

Exactly! I think it was the writing on the wall. When you have your VP of Customer Service leave, its not a good sign of whats to come.


User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1329 posts, RR: 15
Reply 82, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8923 times:

At the risk of sounding like one who would applaud a turd on a tail or worship at the ground of Frontier executives, I can't see how this is such a problem. The largest stations will have 4 flights a day. Many airlines would have outsourced those stations. Why should an airline keep a staff on for 3 flights a week?

I read this thread and the one thing that sticks in my mind is that this effects 40% of stations. 60% are handled by other companies already. This does not represent a gigantic change.

Frontier's business model has evolved significantly over the last few years. That is a welcome change to me, as the previous business model was largely unsuccessful. Love them or hate them, the management team in place has accomplished something few Frontier teams in the past have: A full year profit.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinemci10 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8816 times:

Now I know in the business world making profits is what a company is gauged on. And I understand that Frontier had to make this choice. But if Frontier had to cut this much cost to make a profit, it does not say much for the revenues there are expecting. I am thinking Frontier is not doing as well as we think right now.

User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5125 posts, RR: 28
Reply 84, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8722 times:

Frontiers business model? You call it a friggin model? Really? Seriously? Lets see how this model became what it is. Not necessarily in chronological order. Nor even logical. This was piss poor leadership here.

Buy Midwest. Buy Frontier. Keep them seperate. Merge them. Have the public decide what name stays. Build up MKE. Cut the RJs. Cut the 170s. Slash MKE. Slash MCI. Reduce the Q400. Keep a few Q400s. Remove the Q400s. Remove the 190s. Build up COS. Cut COS. Keep the cookie. Remove the cookie. Move Frontier Corporate to IND from DEN. Move Frontier Corporate back to DEN. Order the C Series for Frontier. Decide the C Series would not go to Frontier. Add this city. Remove this ciry. Add another city, remove that city. Buy Frontier. Sell Frontier. Build up Trenton............................. Layoff all outstation employees, replace with cheaper vendors.

The above is proof of terrible, stupid, idiotic leadership choices. Millions upon millions wasted. Terrible knee jerk reactions. Constant shafting, constant unsure of themselves leadership. While this appears to be a business model to some, I see it as a business disaster. An absolute business disaster. The icing on the cake for me was todays announcement. While some obviously applaud it, I absolutely hate it. Take the animals off the tails. Remove all the whole different animal slogans. This is not Frontier Airlines anymore. Today struck my last nerve. Spiegel will do like he did at US Airways, and jump with a beautiful golden parachute. This ship is taking on water, and workers are being thrown overboard. Anyone thinking they are safe in DEN better get their resumes updated. The writing is on the wall.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinenutsaboutplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 510 posts, RR: 8
Reply 85, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8611 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
Help me with how outsourcing stations with two flights a day - something most other carriers did years ago - is necessarily "last ditch." I don't see it.



First, its not just stations with two flights a day and second, you can not judge an airline or any business for that matter by their financial performance during a single year. If one looks at trends and the fact that this has been a very successful year for most major airlines, the small profit that is expected will not be good news. While a profit is of course a positive, the small profit will be an indicator of the depth of the financial issues at F9.

I defend this move by F9 leadership but I also see it as extreme and aggressive.....hence the "last-ditch".



American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5793 posts, RR: 28
Reply 86, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8453 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 60):
YX was renowned for its inflight service moreso than its ground service I'd say.

Which I would think proves the point to a degree that the ground handling is not necessarily going to make or break the airline. If it were, and if they outsourced, it would seem like they would not have been as popular with their passengers. I chose not to use the word successful because obviously things didn't work out for them too well.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 62):

Maybe so, but isn't the same true of Frontier? I don't think anyone is really renowned for its ground service.

True.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 68):
The DEN hub is still F9.

Some of my least favorite ground handling experiences have been by Alaska Airlines in Seattle - their home. Great employees at most of their outstations (I have no clue if they were contract or company employees) but in Seattle I've seen it all.

I would also go out on a limb and say that sometimes these smaller stations have far better service on the ground than some of the bigger stations, and I can't imagine that all of those operations were in-house.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 85):
I absolutely hate it. Take the animals off the tails. Remove all the whole different animal slogans. This is not Frontier Airlines anymore. Today struck my last nerve.

I actually appreciated your reply #85. I think you made a good case for why you feel the way you feel, and I think in many respects people that are cool to Frontier or it's recent history would point to your litany of failures as the reason why. I would just say that I think one thing that would help eliminate - or at least mitigate to a degree - the emotional vitriol towards them would be to not be so vested emotionally in them to begin with.

That's not to say that we shouldn't like these airlines or these empoyers, or shouldn't expect to be treated well as an employee or as a customer, but at some point I believe that we as enthusiasts and/or workers become enamored with how we "feel" about an alrline and what it "stands for" and how "great" they are - until one day we wake up and things have changed, and now we are suddenly feeling let down, betrayed, etc. In the end, it's a business. It's marketing to the customers. It's marketing to the employees. It's marketing to the shareholders. It's marketing to the communities it serves. It's striving to make a buck. Expecting something "special" from that, while certainly noble and endearing, might be setting oneself up for a huge emotional disappointment. I've done it. I get vested in companies in that way. I'm probably that way at times with my own employer. I'm not criticizing. I just think we are expecting too much from these businesses in meeting our own personal expectations.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 85):
Anyone thinking they are safe in DEN better get their resumes updated. The writing is on the wall.

Frankly, with all due respect to Frontier and Republic, they should have done this a long time ago. LIke somewhere up near the beginning of your list of Frontier Fouls. Failing to do so given the roller coaster that has been going on there would seem to me that they either don't care, aren't aware, or are somehow blindly hoping that things will always go right. I wish them the best with that. My last employer was a great place to work and very successful, but outside factors cut them off at the knees. Forty-five days after I left the employees all showed up to locked doors. Game over.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineb737100 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7861 times:

I shall always remember the words on the back of my first airline ID card.."AN AIRLINE IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE PEOPLE THAT WORK FOR IT"..that was a long time ago and the world has changed. All the best and good luck to the F9 staff being laid off.


Boeing 737 sunjet service
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 88, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7536 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 81):
I posted in one of the Frontier threads they had been quietly seeking handling binds in large stations like LAX and SFO while not back filling some vacant positions.

Now it makes sense.

Indeed, and I assume it is a step towards fuller automation of the check-in process, as already happens in so many places. Kiosks (and Smartphone apps) rule.

Ryanair in the UK charges for manual check-in and Air New Zealand actively discourages it when kiosks are available. I've had two trips to Australia in the past few months- three airlines, eight check-in's and I never had the need to do it manually.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 89, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6645 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 87):
Which I would think proves the point to a degree that the ground handling is not necessarily going to make or break the airline.

It can though. Especially if it wasn't contracted out from the start. If you had your own staff for years, and then go the low road, of course people will notice...especially those who fly frequently. I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way.

In conclusion, I don't have much more to say except that there has always been, and always will be, a noticeable difference in the overall quality of service provided by people who work for the airline and people who are just there to make a paycheck. Are there exceptions? Sure. But they are few and far between. At least some stations (28, which is a decent number) were hanging on to F9 staff. And what's worse, you'll have an inconsistent experience if you're flying Frontier...which is something I've always hated, and which is something an airline airline like Southwest, for example always has never offered. They are as consistent as it gets. Corporate can spin it as much as they want...the fact is, it will be inconsistent. Some may say this is much ado about nothing or that as long as the airline makes a profit, who cares how they get there. If you degrade service quality, the airline will eventually suffer. But don't just take my word for it. Go read some comments on the F9 facebook page for starters talking about the "wonderful" service offered by contract staff. I've always prided myself on customer service, so every time I travel, I notice things. It makes a huge difference if you have your own people. More power to F9 management if this was the best they could come up with or if they think this is the way of the future for the airline. I just happen to think it's pathetic. Carry on.


User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1329 posts, RR: 15
Reply 90, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6523 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 85):
You call it a friggin model?

Many of those moves were the right ones. Merging Frontier with an airline giving it eastern hubs fixed a problem frontier always had: DEN. Yes, that's their home, but their needed to be more. Every F9 management team ha tried to find something more. Getting rid of the Q400s made sense. They did not need those and the E-Jets. They came back because the contract fell through, and RAH could find anyone to even lease the planes, odd considering how magical people here find it. As to dropping and adding cities: airlines do this all the time. Can we really expect a small airline to fly nonprofitable routes. Perhaps they should just fly LAX 5 times a day, and LAS 6 times a day, and lose buckets of money like they used to. Yes, many of republics decisions needed changing, but at least they did change them. They have been a very aggressive company trying to improve Frontier. Without them: Frontier would not exist. Besides, there have been many poor strategic decisions prior to republic. I have work in an hour, so no time to list them all.

The fleet change back to only airbus is a critical phase of the transition to ULCC. That transition as proven critical as well. Frontier of old failed. It is naive to keep wishing for its return.

Just like I said in the old thread: Like them or not, this management team has achieved something few F9 management teams have before: A full year profit.

That result seems better for the airline, than sticking out unprofitable routes, keeping an operation that did not add to the brand (Lynx), and flying routes like they used to.

This is still Frontier Airlines. It is just not the old frontier anymore. And seeing where the old frontier got them, that would seem a good thing to me.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 91, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5954 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 77):
I can see why the airlines are doing this and the blame should be put on the passengers who demand low ticket prices. It is a competitive market for sure and any way the airlines can reduce their costs, they are doing it.



Blaming the customer! For what spending money! The customer can only buy a ticket priced by an airline, they don't make up the fare they are going to pay. If said airline offers low fares to attract customers then is it the customers fault for buying the ticket. I just don't understand the logic in blaming a customer for business.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinenkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 6
Reply 92, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5486 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 77):
and the blame should be put on the passengers

Bold... blame the ones that are paying the bills....



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3626 posts, RR: 6
Reply 93, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5432 times:

Realistically guys, F9 in its current form is not long for this world.

This company will be bought, merged, or cease to exist at some point in the near future. This is yet another step in that direction.

5 years ago, this airline was modeled as a B6 of the mountain west. The model caused them to lose a lot of money. Since then it has been reinvention after reinvention.

Allegiant has proved that you can run a small airline profitably by flying to tertiary airports from vacation hot spots like LAS.

F9 is now trying this approach with Trenton. It already failed in COS. Aviation history shows that Allegiant is the exception to the rule due to relevance. How relevant is F9 in its market place today? What is its marketplace? I think those 2 questions need to be answered.

In the meantime, they will continue to trim all fat possible to make themselves lean and mean.

I can not help but think a staple to the bottom of the WN pilot list would have been better for these guys


User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 94, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5170 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 95):
Realistically guys, F9 in its current form is not long for this world.

This company will be bought, merged, or cease to exist at some point in the near future. This is yet another step in that direction.

5 years ago, this airline was modeled as a B6 of the mountain west. The model caused them to lose a lot of money. Since then it has been reinvention after reinvention.

Allegiant has proved that you can run a small airline profitably by flying to tertiary airports from vacation hot spots like LAS.

F9 is now trying this approach with Trenton. It already failed in COS. Aviation history shows that Allegiant is the exception to the rule due to relevance. How relevant is F9 in its market place today? What is its marketplace? I think those 2 questions need to be answered.

In the meantime, they will continue to trim all fat possible to make themselves lean and mean.

I can not help but think a staple to the bottom of the WN pilot list would have been better for these

You hit the nail on the head and are dead on the money. Well said. The bottom line is, they need to pick a model and stick with it. From the looks they are between a NK and G4 right now.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3144 posts, RR: 10
Reply 95, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5039 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
Anyone know what's up?

Reply 65 has a link regarding Frontier's Profit. These two are specifically regarding the outsourcing:



Courtesy: Denver Business Journal

Frontier Airlines Outsourcing Hundreds Of Jobs

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/mo...airlines-outsourcing-hundreds.html


Courtesy: The Denver Post

Frontier Airlines To Outsource Some Jobs At Stations Outside Denver

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...urce-some-jobs-at-stations-outside


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 96, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5004 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 90):
At least some stations (28, which is a decent number) were hanging on to F9 staff. And what's worse, you'll have an inconsistent experience if you're flying Frontier...which is something I've always hated, and which is something an airline airline like Southwest, for example always has never offered.

But there is this:

Southwest Wants To Begin Outsourcing Employees (by swa4life Jun 19 2012 in Civil Aviation)

And this:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/busines...1-156a-5362-90fc-05900a6b4005.html

"Southwest outsourcing RIC ground workers' jobs"

And this:

http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/uni...est-wants-outsource-164336219.html

"Union says Southwest wants to outsource some jobs

Union workers protest against Southwest, say airline trying to outsource some jobs"


As to the complaints on Frontier's Facebook, go back a bit further in time and read some of the extremely negative posts about the in-house CSA's.

Facebook is sound-off - a place to vent, about anything - as you did yesterday.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-06 09:43:59]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 97, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4932 times:

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 71):
Amen brother! I tried preaching to the choir but it fell on deaf ears!

I say this not as grammar policeman of mixed metaphors but as message critic. Based on your stance compared to others on the "life and times of Frontier" threads, this was not your choir. Your choir was elsewhere. Secondly, choirs don't have deaf ears. Rather the opposite, preaching to your choir they hear everything you say and agree. But this wasn't your choir. And before anyone goes into an "I told you so!" celebration dance, remind yourselves that you are celebrating in front of employees losing jobs, customers striving to make good consumer decisions by encouraging choices, and corporate leaders giving heart and soul to make things work. There, but for the grace of God (Amen brother!), go you.  

-Rampart


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 98, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4898 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 98):
Facebook is sound-off - a place to vent, about anything - as you did yesterday.

And quite a few people seem to have agreed with what I wrote. I didn't just go there to vent. I went there to share my opinion, as I did here. People can agree with it or disagree.

As for the links you've posted, I've never denied the fact that other airlines outsource. I just think the degree in which F9 has decided to do it is a poor, reactionary move. And again I'll throw out the word inconsistent, because that's the service Frontier passengers will get once all the stations are outsourced. Corporate can spin it all they want, but the service will decline.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 99, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4862 times:

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 68):
60% of F9's cities are already outsourced. That is a point that so many keep dismissing.

Even if 60% of outstations are now outsourced, it's still likely that a majority of passengers in the outstations are currently served by actual F9 employees. If we make the not unreasonable assumption that the average outsourced station sees one daily flight, while the average insourced station sees three daily flights, then two-thirds of passengers in the outstations are still served by F9 employees on the ground. (0.4x3 = 1.2; 0.6x1=0.6, 1.2/(1.2+0.6) = 2/3)

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 91):
Merging Frontier with an airline giving it eastern hubs fixed a problem frontier always had: DEN.

Except they tried to merge it with an airline with even bigger problems and that ended up being a disaster. And where exactly are those eastern hubs now?


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7691 posts, RR: 15
Reply 100, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4852 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 30):
All I'm saying is that I believe customer service will go down the toilet and that customer retention will become that much more difficult. No more, no less.

Certainly true, but they are turning into Spirit. We know that. The hurdle of customer service at NK is really really low.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
Help me with how outsourcing stations with two flights a day - something most other carriers did years ago - is necessarily "last ditch." I don't see it.

It's part of being a ULCC. They are going to keep doing this sort of thing until somebody buys them, but I still say they can't make money as a ULCC until they have ancillary revenue from more sources and/or a strong tour packaging product.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
No wonder why Cliff VanLuven escaped a few months ago. This was coming down the line...

Where is he now? You are probably right.

Quoting mariner (Reply 52):
Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
God bless you, because your positive reaction to this is as expected as the sun rising from the east. If Frontier were to announce they were putting a giant turd on their tails tomorrow, you'd like the move.

And bless you, too.

ROTFL

Quoting F9animal (Reply 54):
Bryan Bedford continues to thump his bible, and sell his soul to the devil. I was once a fan of Bedford, but now I see him as another greedy CEO.

Well said...

Quoting F9animal (Reply 54):
Frontier is not a whole different animal anymore.

They aren't. They are becoming Spirit. Can't say I'm surprised.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 56):
So the fact that DEN is all F9 and every other city will be non-F9 is okay with you? It's called inconsistent.

Mark my words: they will do this same thing in DEN. It's probably a year away, but they are going to really shrink in DEN over the next 18 months. Bet the farm on that. The question is where they are going to go. TTN is two planes. The stuff coming out of DEN is a much larger volume of capacity.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 95):
5 years ago, this airline was modeled as a B6 of the mountain west. The model caused them to lose a lot of money. Since then it has been reinvention after reinvention.

Allegiant has proved that you can run a small airline profitably by flying to tertiary airports from vacation hot spots like LAS.

But that is not F9's current model. They are presently NK without the fees and G4 without the fees and tour product.

They keep cutting costs, but they aren't doing anything to build revenue. They are basically reversing a bunch of "quality to create value/fare premium" decisions and rolling themselves back to a ULCC. The old Frontier is gone. The new Frontier is $79 and not much else. That's fine (except for the employees), but they need a revenue fix as well.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 101, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4850 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 100):
And quite a few people seem to have agreed with what I wrote. I didn't just go there to vent.

I see you ignore my point about previous negative posts - the negative ones about the in-house CSA's.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 100):
And again I'll throw out the word inconsistent, because that's the service Frontier passengers will get once all the stations are outsourced.

You keep saying this but where is the evidence? Frontier has been having record load factors and is making money with the majority (60%) of the stations already outsourced.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 102, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4797 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 102):
Certainly true, but they are turning into Spirit.

Oh yeah, they basically said as much when I was there. Trying to follow the NK/G4 model as closely as possible but still have a unique identity...and obviously the unique identity has become one-upping NK in terms of outsourced cities. As mediocre as NK is from a service perspective, at least they keep their own people in some of the larger cities.

Quoting enilria (Reply 102):
Mark my words: they will do this same thing in DEN.

That would not surprise me. I hope the good people in DEN keep indeed.com bookmarked.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 103, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4789 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 102):
They are becoming Spirit. Can't say I'm surprised.

Why would you be surprised? Frontier said it was becoming a ULCC over a year ago.   

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 104, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4773 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 103):
I see you ignore my point about previous negative posts - the negative ones about the in-house CSA's.

I didn't really have a comment on it because it's well known that while browsing various corporate FB pages you'll find a mixed bag of positives and negatives. And there are bad apples everywhere...but I'd rather have a staff of people who truly give a darn about the company than some who are working for multiple airlines and have no real allegiance.

Quoting mariner (Reply 103):
You keep saying this but where is the evidence? Frontier has been having record load factors and is making money with the majority (60%) of the stations already outsourced.

60% and many of those have one flight or less than daily service. The 28 being cut are some of the larger ones which handle more traffic, and where the F9 name is more well known. Where's the evidence? I don't think there is any because I can't remember any airline doing 100% outsourcing in all its outstations, yet keep the hub in house. If there's an example out there I'd love to know. If you were to poll Ascent and Summit members, just for an example, I'd bet my savings account that they would not view this as a positive trend.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 105, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4694 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 106):
If you were to poll Ascent and Summit members, just for an example, I'd bet my savings account that they would not view this as a positive trend.

They may have a kneejerk reaction if told about the concept but in actuality I doubt many of them would know if the staff is outsourced or not.

I travel quite a lot and I never march up to the counter and ask if the staff is outsourced. These days, of course, I usually don't go to the counter.

Most of the airports I use are fully automated - no lines, quick and easy.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7691 posts, RR: 15
Reply 106, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4655 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 105):
Quoting enilria (Reply 102):
They are becoming Spirit. Can't say I'm surprised.

Why would you be surprised? Frontier said it was becoming a ULCC over a year ago.   

mariner

I'm not surprised but to go from a very well loved airline to Spirit (probably least liked by customers) is a huge change that is hard for people to stomach. I think they have to adopt the fees of NK/G4 to finish this conversion (and achieve necessary/comparable financial results) and that will finish off anything left of the customer love that is ebbing.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 107, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4616 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
I'm not surprised but to go from a very well loved airline to Spirit (probably least liked by customers) is a huge change that is hard for people to stomach.

It may have been very well loved, but it was losing money.

One mo' time - Frontier has not made a full year profit since 2003, long before Republic, long before Mr. Bedford, even before Southwest at DEN.

So while folk may have loved 'em, it's a pity they didn't fly 'em.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-06 10:47:29]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 108, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4491 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 107):
They may have a kneejerk reaction if told about the concept but in actuality I doubt many of them would know if the staff is outsourced or not.

I think you'd be surprised. In ATL, we had a steady flow of elite passengers who would actually prefer the counter over the kiosk. We'd have the chance to thank them for their business and offer a little touch of genuine sincerity that people who don't really care about the airline can't duplicate. I was asked numerous times how I liked working for Frontier, how long I've worked there, etc. Good service at all customer facing points was always a Frontier trademark. I can't say the same for some legacy carriers over the years who just wanted to treat you as a number and send you on your way. Trust me...after working in the business off and on since 2001...people will notice the difference. Overall, it's going to lessen the experience, but perhaps management is comfortable with that?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 109, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4431 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 110):
I think you'd be surprised. In ATL, we had a steady flow of elite passengers who would actually prefer the counter over the kiosk.

I'm a Luddite, I used to be like that.

When I first encountered the enforced kiosks of Air New Zealand, I rebelled - pointlessly. I was guided through the use of the kiosk - which took some doing, I don't even own a mobile phone.

Now I am completely comfortable with the kiosks.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 110):
Overall, it's going to lessen the experience, but perhaps management is comfortable with that?

I can only repeat myself. Frontier tried the superior customer service way and lost money to the point of bankruptcy in so doing.

This move is part - but only part - of the move to profitability, but if you are comfortable with the idea of Frontier going bankrupt again and this time perhaps ceasing to exist, there isn't much I can say.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-06 12:01:52]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepetteri From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4389 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 111):
I can only repeat myself. Frontier tried the superior customer service way and lost money to the point of bankruptcy in so doing.

I'm not sure it was the "customer service way" that lost them all that money. I'd wager it was more being unprepared for WN's big entrance into DEN and the lack of finding a way to grow outside of DEN prior to that.

Good customer service and making money don't have to be mutually exclusive.



The above comments are my personal comments and in no way should be viewed as the views,policy or statements of JetBlue
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 111, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4388 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 111):
If you are comfortable with the idea of Frontier going bankrupt again and this time perhaps ceasing to exist, there isn't much I can say.

I never uttered those words. I simply do not believe this was the best idea they could come up with, and if it was, in my opinion, it was due to poor decisions made leading up to it, so I can't really just say bravo, it's a great idea and leave it at that. I think it's basically knee jerk and reactionary. Plus, it's a move that could have a long term negative impact if it negatively affects the customer experience, which it probably will. We'll just see how it all unfolds.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 112, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4348 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 113):
I never uttered those words.

It doesn't matter whether you said the words or not. You must - surely - be aware of the financial hard times of Frontier and what that led to in 2008.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 113):
Plus, it's a move that could have a long term negative impact if it negatively affects the customer experience, which it probably will.

Nothing has a more negative effect than losing money.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 113, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4329 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 114):
Nothing has a more negative effect than losing money.

Thus, I wouldn't expedite the process by degrading the customer experience in every city except one. Long term losses could very well outweigh short term gains.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 114, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4315 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 114):
It doesn't matter whether you said the words or not

It does, because like I said, if this was truly the last and only thing that could be done before going Tango Uniform, that should tell you something. It tells me that whatever was done leading up to it, once again, didn't work. So if all else fails, stick it to the people who represent the airline and what it stands for. Poor leadership 101.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 115, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4275 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 116):
t does, because like I said, if this was truly the last and only thing that could be done before going Tango Uniform, that should tell you something.

It is not the "last and only thing" - this is part of a process of reducing costs which are still too high compared with its peers. Please read what I wrote:

Quoting mariner (Reply 111):
This move is part - but only part - of the move to profitability

But I think I am wasting my time and my breath. Meanwhile, I see the price of oil is up to $116 a barrel again.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2413 posts, RR: 2
Reply 116, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4281 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 100):
I just think the degree in which F9 has decided to do it is a poor, reactionary move. And again I'll throw out the word inconsistent, because that's the service Frontier passengers will get once all the stations are outsourced. Corporate can spin it all they want, but the service will decline.

I am sorry. I am a pretty savy, frequent traveler, and I can not tell the service difference. I have no idea who the person taking my boarding pass works for. I have experienced great customer service from outsourced workers and crappy service from airline employees. And the other way around. I think we are kidding ourselves if we think this is going to have a dramatic impact one way or the other.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 117, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4221 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
It is not the "last and only thing" - this is part of a process of reducing costs which are still too high compared with its peers

To be honest I'd call it grasping for straws at this point. Sad it came to this, but considering the people at the helm, I can't say I'm surprised.

Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
But I think I am wasting my time and my breath

I don't see it like that. You have your thoughts on the subject and I respect those, even though we disagree on the benefits to the airline in the long run.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 118, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4194 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 116):
So if all else fails, stick it to the people who represent the airline and what it stands for.

Again, though, the airline stands for good customer service, NOT using your own employees for customer service.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 119, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4192 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 120):
Again, though, the airline stands for good customer service, NOT using your own employees for customer service.

At many airlines, the two go hand in hand. Just because Frontier can't make it work doesn't mean others aren't.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 120, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4190 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 119):
Sad it came to this, but considering the people at the helm, I can't say I'm surprised.

Mr. Siegel is at the helm and I have nothing but respect what he has so far achieved.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 121, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4177 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 85):
You call it a friggin model? Really? Seriously? Lets see how this model became what it is. Not necessarily in chronological order. Nor even logical. This was piss poor leadership here.

Maybe lots of zig-zagging along the way, but it seems to have generated a profit at the end. So it cant be all that bad.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 118):
I am sorry. I am a pretty savvy, frequent traveler, and I can not tell the service difference. I have no idea who the person taking my boarding pass works for. I have experienced great customer service from outsourced workers and crappy service from airline employees.

  

For almost a decade I was in senior management of a ground handler and can personally state that the service vendors can offer service levels that match and exceed the airlines own inhouse performance. We regularly had higher customer service scores, lower lost luggage rates, reduced ground damage incidents, and simply put happier customers all around then many stations run by our customer airlines themselves.

Ultimately it really comes down to the airline to properly manage its vendors, but selecting competent ones, while setting and holding their vendors to the appropriate expected service levels.

Inherently there is zero reason why a vendor cannot by extension provide the highest possible service. In reality a vendor actually has higher incentive to maintain high service delivery as their entire existence depends upon it, unlike some inhouse staff which can over time hide behind things like unions, seniority etc..



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 122, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4163 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 122):
Mr. Siegel is at the helm and I have nothing but respect what he has so far achieved.

I'm not surprised you'd say that.  


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 123, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4112 times:

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 118):
I am sorry. I am a pretty savy, frequent traveler, and I can not tell the service difference. I have no idea who the person taking my boarding pass works for. I have experienced great customer service from outsourced workers and crappy service from airline employees. And the other way around. I think we are kidding ourselves if we think this is going to have a dramatic impact one way or the other.

Well, I know several people who fly 100K+ a year and who feel the opposite, so it really is subjective.





Quoting LAXintl (Reply 123):
For almost a decade I was in senior management of a ground handler and can personally state that the service vendors can offer service levels that match and exceed the airlines own inhouse performance. We regularly had higher customer service scores, lower lost luggage rates, reduced ground damage incidents, and simply put happier customers all around then many stations run by our customer airlines themselves.

Ultimately it really comes down to the airline to properly manage its vendors, but selecting competent ones, while setting and holding their vendors to the appropriate expected service levels.

Inherently there is zero reason why a vendor cannot by extension provide the highest possible service. In reality a vendor actually has higher incentive to maintain high service delivery as their entire existence depends upon it, unlike some inhouse staff which can over time hide behind things like unions, seniority etc..

I worked with a ground handler for a time and the difference in attitude and customer focus was noticeable compared to my stints at airlines. It's more of a mixed bag with vendors. Most work for multiple airlines and have no real connection to any of them in particular. More incentive to just please your boss, less incentive to be a true face of the airline. That's what I've seen/witnessed. I'm not sure which company has been picked, but you know, with money being so tight, it was likely the one who bid the least.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 124, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4007 times:

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 118):
I am a pretty savy, frequent traveler, and I can not tell the service difference.

I think it varies from carrier to carrier and airport to airport. Not to long after the luggage weight went south from seventy to fifty pounds. (keep in mind it stayed 70lbs at AS considerably longer) I checked a bag with a contract employee for AA at MDT. According to his scale my bag weighed 51 lbs; he made me open it and transfer one pound to a second bag or in my carry-on or he would have charged me the overweight fee. I call that anal.

On the opposite side of the coin; I flew AS JNU-SEA-LAS connecting to AA in LAS for DFW-BNA I had a carry-on pet. It was my understanding AA would charge me a second pet fee in LAS . The gate agent waived it at 1:00 AM in the morning on a red-eye

On another trip from SEA-ORD-DCA without a change of aircraft in ORD we were suppose to be on the ground for less than one hour. The sideways snow dictated otherwise. We ended up getting stuck in ORD for two days until O'Hare and AA could dig out. AA undoubtedly stressed out with all of cancellations gave us the run-around for a good three hours and more or less snubbed their noses at us. We ended up receiving hotel reimbursement from AA in arrears.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinexespecialist From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4006 times:

I wish the affected F9 staff all the best and good luck. I've been a long time fan of Frontier, flying them frequently from BWI to SFO starting in 1998. In those days they did rely heavily on contract support staff, however they worked very hard to instill some pride in the product. My hope is they take this approach the second time around.


Ready. Set. Jet. XEspecialist
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 126, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 125):
Well, I know several people who fly 100K+ a year and who feel the opposite, so it really is subjective.

Not subjective but station and carrier dependent. When NW outsourced all of the stations with fewer than 50 mainline flights a week in bankruptcy, the difference was clear, immediate and negative. In contrast, it's tough to tell the difference between outsourced US East stations and mainline stations.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3977 times:

Why didn't F9 just offer a lower wages or be replaced by Vendors internal vote. Do you think that all the employees representing F9 would want to be there provided "great" customer service then???

User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 128, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3896 times:
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Qouting mariner Post 109 "it may have been very well loved, but it was losing money.

One mo' time - Frontier has not made a full year profit since 2003, long before Republic, long before Mr. Bedford, even before Southwest at DEN.
So while folk may have loved 'em, it's a pity they didn't fly 'em."

It seems to be hit and miss in SBN. Some flights are full. My flights in and out had about 65-70 people on them. Of course it's after the holidays and just before Spring Break and the Denver employees said that traffic has been down a bit because of it. SBN is working with F9 folks to make another advertising push. I also would like to know if the airline is getting cancellations on some of these routes as you can check flight 803 and 802 on travelocity and other sights and it usually shows 111 or so seats booked on average as it did for my flights but the flights only had about 75 people on them or are competitor airlines up to some of the old tricks of getting into the system and booking bogus seats and then they show up as occupied etc? It's been done before.


User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2413 posts, RR: 2
Reply 129, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3832 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 125):
Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 118):I am sorry. I am a pretty savy, frequent traveler, and I can not tell the service difference. I have no idea who the person taking my boarding pass works for. I have experienced great customer service from outsourced workers and crappy service from airline employees. And the other way around. I think we are kidding ourselves if we think this is going to have a dramatic impact one way or the other.

Well, I know several people who fly 100K+ a year and who feel the opposite, so it really is subjective

As do I. the difference is F9 only has a couple of flights now to the affected cities. We are not talking about stations with 20 to 30 flights as cited by Cubsrule. I used to fly YX a lot to TPA. I believe Spirit was doing the handling at the time. It was just fine. Anyone can have a bad experience, and some like me, have had mostly indistinguishable experiences. I believe Indistinguishable is more the norm.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 130, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3777 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 128):
Not subjective but station and carrier dependent

Subjective in terms of the customers own unique experience and his/her perception.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 131):
As do I. the difference is F9 only has a couple of flights now to the affected cities. We are not talking about stations with 20 to 30 flights as cited by Cubsrule. I used to fly YX a lot to TPA. I believe Spirit was doing the handling at the time. It was just fine. Anyone can have a bad experience, and some like me, have had mostly indistinguishable experiences. I believe Indistinguishable is more the norm.

In this case, I would say people flying out of Denver would/will have more positive experiences than indistinguishable, because there are a bunch of talented, customer-focused people there, while passengers in the outstations would/will have more indistinguishable or negative experiences. There will be a difference. But I would not be surprised to see DEN go all contract at some point. At least then, it'll be the same service levels nationwide, with no chance of confusion.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 131, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 132):
Subjective in terms of the customers own unique experience and his/her perception.

Are you suggesting that service cannot be objectively good or bad?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 943 posts, RR: 1
Reply 132, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 133):
Are you suggesting that service cannot be objectively good or bad?

On an individual level, I would tend to agree with that suggestion.

Two passengers can receive the same treatment from the same gate agent and perceive two very different levels of service. One could be appreciative of the agent helping out, making small talk, asking how the trip is going so far, etc etc etc. The other passenger could be positively annoyed by the small talk.

(Case in point: I was in Target years ago and heard a employee walk up to a lady in electronics offering help and getting a loud response of "I just want to shop without being badgered every minute! Is that so much to ask?!")

In customer service and in human resources, people are taught to be aware of perception. Because perception drives the boat. Thus, and as evidenced by previous replies, there are vastly different opinions on vendors. Just as, if you were to look at Frontier's Facebook page right now, not only would you see people unhappy about outsourcing, you would also see plenty of people who are dissatisfied with Frontier's mainline employees too. We could argue all day about the virtues of mainline or vendor employees and get nowhere. Simply put, there's no silver bullet to pleasing customers - there is always good and bad customer service regardless of whether it says "Frontier," "Spirit," or "Menzies" on their badge. Yes, even Menzies.

The aggregate level of customer service is what's important. There is value in good customer service, absolutely there is. And I'd concede that a company-wide customer satisfaction survey may reflect a slight decrease when this transition all goes through. But when margins are as tight as they are, and for a company that is going to lose whatever synergies they have with Republic soon, it's hard to see how that value added by having mainline employees working outstation ticket counters adds up to offset their savings. Frontier is spread thin capacity-wise (and as every Frontier basher loves to point out, its capacity is terribly volatile). Stations are seasonal, some are less than daily, and as it is now there are but a handful of cities not named Denver that have more than three or four flights a day. So even if every city becomes outsourced to the Swissports and Menzies of the world (which at some stations really isn't bad at all), it's not realistic to expect there is enough added (or in this case, retained) value in keeping a mainline staff. And I say that with not a drop of disrespect towards anyone. It's simply math. Customer service is (somewhat) subjective. Math is not.

The aviation world is tough. We'd love for every station to have mainline jets and mainline employees. But that's long gone.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1751 posts, RR: 12
Reply 133, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3434 times:
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Simply put, the best thing for the remaining family is to get out from under Republic ASAP. Whatever type of transaction it is, it will be better than this wild circus of Brian Jesus and Segal.

The overhaul of F9's planning, revenue management and marketing is long overdue. Half of us could look at DOT data and do as good of a good as Daniel Shurz and his team. Maybe they can outsource these departments too?


User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1751 posts, RR: 12
Reply 134, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3410 times:
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Just thought of something...wonder how the Frontier employee in OKC who lost her son & had a plane named after her son & spent a day with BB feeding the homeless feels. And before you (you know who you are) ridicule my criticism, think about how BB brings it upon himself for his holier than though stance...

User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1329 posts, RR: 15
Reply 135, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3349 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 136):
And before you (you know who you are) ridicule my criticism, think about how BB brings it upon himself for his holier than though stance...

I see no need to ridicule your criticism. Just as I see no need for you to ridicule a mans practice of his faith. It adds little to the discussion.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinemci10 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3307 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 122):
Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 119):Sad it came to this, but considering the people at the helm, I can't say I'm surprised.
Mr. Siegel is at the helm and I have nothing but respect what he has so far achieved.

mariner

I agree he has achieved some success. But from what I have seen, being a fromer F9er, all he has done is cut overhead. Which dont get me wrong you have to do. What is he doing to drive the revenue side? And I believe the only revenue that is keeping F9 afloat is the Apple Vacation Charters. You can only cut so much. A CEO has to be successful on both sides. And he is not showing me that he can be successful on both sides.


User currently offlinejetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2850 posts, RR: 33
Reply 137, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3290 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 136):
Just thought of something...wonder how the Frontier employee in OKC who lost her son & had a plane named after her son & spent a day with BB feeding the homeless feels. And before you (you know who you are) ridicule my criticism, think about how BB brings it upon himself for his holier than though stance...

OKC was outsourced back in April 2012, the individual you are thinking of now works for a mainline carrier in OKC.



No info
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 138, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3280 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 125):
It's more of a mixed bag with vendors.

Just like any other business entity. Its really up to the customer(airline in this case) to select the appropriate business partner in a vendor and properly set their expectations and hold that vendor accountable at the end.

Its really not rocket science as business to business relationships exist everywhere and there is no reason why airline handling cannot be transparent regardless if its a 3rd party vendor or inhouse.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 125):
I'm not sure which company has been picked, but you know, with money being so tight, it was likely the one who bid the least.

Well since the bag is out of the hat, I can confirm F9 has been laying these plans since last summer and has been seeking deals where vendors would be offered bundles to take over multiple airports in one shot. Basically stations were split into groups with a single vendor taking all in the group.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 963 posts, RR: 1
Reply 139, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3215 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 140):
Basically stations were split into groups with a single vendor taking all in the group.

Any word on who the vendors might be?



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 140, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3222 times:
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Quoting mci10 (Reply 138):
And I believe the only revenue that is keeping F9 afloat is the Apple Vacation Charters.

They surely didn't make $30 million profit in Q3 from the Apple contract - it's the weakest quarter for Apple.

I'd be surprised, as in fall over in shock, if they made that much - as in net profit - from Apple in a full year.

Certainly reduced costs are an important part of it, thus this present move, but the revenue is increasing. They issued revised upwards guidance for 4Q 2012 (actual numbers not released yet):

http://www.jagsreport.com/2013/01/re...g-reaffirmed-by-dahlman-rose-rjet/

“Total unit revenue growth at Republic’s Frontier subsidiary is expected to increase by 5% y/y, up from prior guidance of up 4% y/y. Frontier non-fuel costs are expected to be down by 8%, compared to prior guidance of down 5%. As a result of higher revenues and lower costs, Frontier generated a profit margin of 2% to 3% in the quarter.

The Republic Airways subsidiary is expected to report a pretax profit of $20 MM to $25MM, up from prior 4Q12 guidance of $15 MM to $20MM.


The airline is already profitable for the full year (about $24 million) so if the Q4 numbers hold, 2012 will be very respectable. Not good enough yet for the airline to cash neutral because of (among other things) progress payments on the Airbus Neo order.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-06 22:20:58]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1607 posts, RR: 4
Reply 141, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3180 times:

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 19):
Its kinda comical because its like a big circle...unless there is something preventing these outsourced employees from making a certain amount so payroll is never high eventually wont F9 be in the same situation they are in now?

Contract companies have a lower top out that is reached much earlier. The only way to increase your pay after roughly 3-5 years with the company is to move up the ladder.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):

Help me with how outsourcing stations with two flights a day - something most other carriers did years ago - is necessarily "last ditch." I don't see it.

Many carriers outsource anything less than 10 or so.

Quoting F9animal (Reply 54):
Some of you just crunch numbers, and applaud this move, without giving one shit about the hundreds of lives hurt by this.

I don't crunch numbers, and I don't applaud this move, but I can't say I didn't expect it. I'm on my second stint working for one of the contractors that will probably pick up a big chunk of this, and I worked for Frontier at one point (very, very briefly). I have never figured out how keeping Frontier employees at stations with less than 5 flights a day, to say nothing of the less-than-daily stations, was viable.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 56):
Maybe cleaning crews. I haven't experienced a time when a contract agent checking me in or working the gate is better or even equal to an airline employee, and I've flown on 40 airlines and have visited 79 airports.

Flown United recently? I know that in at least some stations where there are contract and mainline employees working side-by-side right now, the contract employees give a better level of customer service with fewer screw-ups overall. How is that known? Those contract companies are checking up on it because they want to keep their business, so they want to know if it's their fault or not when things are happening. But, hey, go ahead and cling to your fantasy that airline employees are always better than contractors.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 132):
At least then, it'll be the same service levels nationwide, with no chance of confusion.

Umm, actually, the service levels will vary station-to-station, whether or not DEN is outsourced, based on what company holds the contract, how effective the local management is, and other factors. That would be true even if F9 was not making this move. There will be level STANDARDS across the whole system, but, again, that would be true either way.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5125 posts, RR: 28
Reply 142, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3112 times:

I took a little time and googled: david siegel us airways....

If remaining F9 employees think they are in the clear... Think again. This guy loves outsourcing, and loves taking pay away. He hates pensions, and loves bankruptcy. He has a terrible history. His average time as a leader is two to tbree years. He will jump ship real quick, and loves his payout by bailing early. He is already showing his cycle he has, and will put Frontier back on its knees before running. He has a terrible history, and has hurt thousands upon thousands of people in his life. He is going to destroy Frontier........



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 143, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3090 times:
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Quoting F9animal (Reply 144):
His average time as a leader is two to tbree years. He will jump ship real quick, and loves his payout by bailing early.


What else is anyone expecting?

Dave Siegel's career is shepherded byTexas Pacific Group - TPG - and he goes where they assign him, to fix troubled companies that they own or in which they have an interest. Fairly obviously, he makes a lot of enemies in the process.

TPG put him on the board of Republic when it took a stake in the company and that's how he came to be at Frontier, with one directive - to turn Frontier into a viable, stand alone and consistently profitable airline.

Once that is done, and once Frontier is separated from Republic, I assume he may very well move on again.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 144, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2844 times:
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I don't know how many stations this affects but stations such as BMI, GRR and SBN and others where there is 1 flight or two a day for a few days a week it makes no sense to have company employees there even part time. At SBN for an example the DGS employees who work for Delta at SBN were cheering for F9 to come in so that they could get the contract and what did they have to do. Train on F9's computer system an procedures and bring in DGS equipment for A319's and A320's. The DGS employees work hard and give excellent customer service whether its to Frontier or Delta.

The under wing guys and gals are quite familiar with Airbus equipment having worked them for Delta Notre Dame charters.
Bringing in the heavy tugs, The large air-conditioning cart etc just prepares them for future Delta mainline operations at SBN. It's a win-win for them in the long run.

Silent Siegel has made Frontier into a viable company however he needs to start advertising more outside of the Denver market to boost traffic at the small stations they have opened up in the last year.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 145, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

Clearly many people on here have different views on the subject. I for one have said all I've needed to say. But just to reiterate because I have a few minutes to kill... I think it's a poor, desperate, reactionary move that might not be as cost beneficial to the airline in the long run as certain people think. I think this decision was forced by poor management decisions going in. It takes a special kind of person who can give walking papers to 700 employees. I'm glad I don't have that in me, nor am I envious of anyone, regardless of title or salary. Great, a small profit was made. And another will probably be made - but look at the cost. Obviously things like loyalty, passion, pride, dedication, knowledge, persistence, and a cohesive customer facing product mean little to people pulling the strings. So this was "part" of the trimming of the fat. Wow. I mean that's laughably bad if it got to this point, let alone more to do. Pathetic. I respect companies who can find a balance between being successful financially and treating their own well. And if times are tough financially, there's still something to be said for doing whatever is possible to lessen the impact on the people who make the whole thing work - not those who sit behind a desk pretending they are more important than they really in life because they have a three-letter title. How about corporate pay cuts to save cash? How about doing things like expediting the removal of Live TV or cutting the amount of catering? Perhaps increase fees to align themselves with NK more? When the statement "This was not a decision to be taken lightly" was made, how can anyone actually believe that? Perhaps people that are just flat out blinded by corporate loyalty? It's pretty much the worst thing that they can say...trying to show empathy and a bit of concern to hide their own ineptitude. With that said, I wish my F9 family the best, and I'm sorry it came to this. And for the folks in DEN...might as well start the job search process. I'm sure WN will be doing some hiring in the not too distant future.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 146, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2727 times:
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Quoting freakyrat (Reply 146):
Silent Siegel has made Frontier into a viable company however he needs to start advertising more outside of the Denver market to boost traffic at the small stations they have opened up in the last year.

It's still mid-winter - historically Frontier's worst season - but the January system load factor was 87%.

That's 7 points higher than the previous year and on a par with Allegiant's 86.5% - so I think they may be on to it.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 147, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2654 times:
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SBN officials are meeting with Frontier to do some heavier advertising in the local market to boost loads up during this slow time. I also saw that F9 put out a fare sale in the Midwest to boost traffic.

User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 148, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 147):
Clearly many people on here have different views on the subject. I for one have said all I've needed to say. But just to reiterate because I have a few minutes to kill... I think it's a poor, desperate, reactionary move that might not be as cost beneficial to the airline in the long run as certain people think. I think this decision was forced by poor management decisions going in. It takes a special kind of person who can give walking papers to 700 employees. I'm glad I don't have that in me, nor am I envious of anyone, regardless of title or salary. Great, a small profit was made. And another will probably be made - but look at the cost. Obviously things like loyalty, passion, pride, dedication, knowledge, persistence, and a cohesive customer facing product mean little to people pulling the strings. So this was "part" of the trimming of the fat. Wow. I mean that's laughably bad if it got to this point, let alone more to do. Pathetic. I respect companies who can find a balance between being successful financially and treating their own well. And if times are tough financially, there's still something to be said for doing whatever is possible to lessen the impact on the people who make the whole thing work - not those who sit behind a desk pretending they are more important than they really in life because they have a three-letter title. How about corporate pay cuts to save cash? How about doing things like expediting the removal of Live TV or cutting the amount of catering? Perhaps increase fees to align themselves with NK more? When the statement "This was not a decision to be taken lightly" was made, how can anyone actually believe that? Perhaps people that are just flat out blinded by corporate loyalty? It's pretty much the worst thing that they can say...trying to show empathy and a bit of concern to hide their own ineptitude. With that said, I wish my F9 family the best, and I'm sorry it came to this. And for the folks in DEN...might as well start the job search process. I'm sure WN will be doing some hiring in the not too distant future.

There was a great article on crankyflier today on F9. You should read it.

First off, if you are truly representing your feelings, then you are in a very very small minority that no airline caters to. F9 is transitioning into an ULCC. ULCC compete on price and price alone, not superior schedules, amenities, or service. To be a successful ULCC you have to have extremely low cost. They are no longer an LCC like WN or B6 (who have great customer service). G4 and NK are not known for their customer service, as they are competing for the most price sensitive customers. It's the people who will be back even if they have a bad experience simply because they are the cheapest.

DEN currently is a blood bath. So F9 simply can't raise their prices from DEN-LAX/PHX/SAN?LAS, etc. But what they can do is lower their costs. Again to be a successful ULCC this has to happen.

Also for the 3rd party contractors who will be taking over this service, if you read the crankyflier article, it sounds like each contractor will be getting a group of cities. In order for them to get a good price, they are going to have to contract out in the larger cities.

I am not a fan of Dave Seigel. He flat out lied to the pilots at US. He told them if they gave back another round of concessions, he wouldn't touch their pensions, so the pilots gave back more. Well it wasn't but a week later, that Dave went to the board to throw out their pensions. He knew exactly what he was doing. I think he could have gone about that in a much more honest way. But to counter that argument, without yanking the pensions, it's entirely possible that US never would've made it to the merger in 05.

F9 said in their memo that they are working with these new contractors to hopefully re-hire the F9 employees. In upper-level management, you have to think objectively. I don't think there are many people that enjoy having to lay someone off, but sometimes you have to. After all, F9 is a public company, and their job is to make the shareholders money. They could've left them high and dry and said your on your own. At least they're trying to work with them to get new jobs, and at the very least offer them severance packages.

F9 is finally making money. And while some employees are being let go, I think most F9 employees would rather work for a company that is profitable and therefore has a better future outlook than one that continuously loses money (F9 from 04-11).

Again, I know you feel for the employees, but just in this thread alone you've seen the differences in customer experience/satisfaction. And while for arguments sake, lets say you are completely right about outsourced employees not being as dedicated/caring. In the current model, in places like CAK, DAY, SJC, SMF, WN has run them out of town. Enough people switched to WN in DEN and left F9. So even with in-house employees there in DEN, and being the hometown airline, it wasn't enough. Maybe they would've retained you, but like I said earlier, you are in the minority, and there clearly are not enough people who care enough who handles there bag or checks them in. They've tried competing with WN in DEN for years now and haven't had a lot of success. So now maybe they've lost your business, but they're becoming an ULCC which means they will complete on price and price alone.

And lastly, industries adapt to what consumers want. In the 90s, airlines had tons of extra baggage, paid all employees exceptionally well, and just passed on the cost to consumers. In today's world that's not the case. NK and G4 (both ULCC) are making money for a reason. There is at least a segment of consumers who care only about price and nothing else. In Europe, Ryanair makes money doing the same thing.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 149, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2585 times:

Contracting out these positions is very expensive. F9 may ultimately realize it; be it one or two years down the road.

I have to wonder if keeping their own employees part time would have been a better idea. If I as a customer have a bad experience I'm going to choose another carrier. Contracted employees have no allegiance or loyalty to F9 company.

The Menzies fiasco in SEA which plagued AS for the close to two years. Aircraft damage and image damage on the front thresholds.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 150, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2524 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 151):
Contracted employees have no allegiance or loyalty to F9 company.

Can you somehow prove that this makes them perform worse?

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 150):
ULCC compete on price and price alone, not superior schedules, amenities, or service.

What precludes a ULCC from competing on service? Obviously, some aspects of service cost money and are incompatible with the ULCC model. Others do not. For instance, I do not believe that F9 needs to stop assigning seats to be an ULCC.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 151, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2496 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 151):
Contracting out these positions is very expensive. F9 may ultimately realize it; be it one or two years down the road.
I have to wonder if keeping their own employees part time would have been a better idea.

How do you figure ?

Having a cadre of part time employees does not do much for cost. You still end up having airport offices, deal with things like uniform cost, and host of other overhead headaches.
Also have you really tried to maintain a staff of part timers in any business? It a huge headache, as these are fickle folks that don't have much allegiance to you.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 151):
If I as a customer have a bad experience I'm going to choose another carrier. Contracted employees have no allegiance or loyalty to F9 company.

While contracting out is a relative new'ish concept in the US (only really started to take off massively in the 1990s), this has been the norm overseas for decades.

You realize some of the worlds most respected service quality airlines like Singapore, Emirates, Swiss, Cathay etc, have most stations contracted out to vendors, including sometime even their home base hubs run by vendors.

I don't see many folks complaining about the ground customer service provided for these airlines by vendors.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 152, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2243 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 150):
Can you somehow prove that this makes them perform worse?

I invite your attention to Dr. Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People? Are you familiar with the Baldridge criteria? which encompasses working smarter not harder, evaluating risk and considering value added.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 151):
Having a cadre of part time employees does not do much for cost

I disagree. And I've managed both directly and indirectly up to twenty two employees. There are many subsets; full time college students who can spare a few hours and want a little spending cash and the free travel bennies. A few months ago I ran into a thirty-something making Subway sandwiches in Augusta, Maine. He would have jumped on a part time job with an airline solely for the free flight benefits. Mid-geners in their forties or early fifties (A military retiree for example) on a second career who enjoys interaction with the public and who wants to keep the saw sharpened.

Part time employees may not have the benefits but they do give you loyalty more than a contracted employee ever would. Part timers have a sence of value as part of a team. Contracted to their own company but not to the airline in this case. Remember you lead people; you manage things. You also loose something in a contracted employee when you have to respond through a middleman COTR

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 151):
Also have you really tried to maintain a staff of part timers in any business?

Actually yes. From a leadership aspect part timers are treated no different than full time employees. At least they better not be. Anything less would be to set them up for failure.

[Edited 2013-02-08 15:24:31]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 153, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 152):
I disagree. And I've managed both directly and indirectly up to twenty two employees.

We are not talking about a Subway store that will be there and regardless have the same basic fixed overhead cost regardless of type of employee you chose to employ.

Instead we are talking about airline station operations.

It makes virtually no sense to maintain a station (office leases, utilities, equipment) with minimal flight activity with a few part timers even.
Your per passenger cost will be exorbitant by still having to retain the basic infrastructure for a much busier place.

Going with a handling agent, you for the most part can shed much of these cost as the vendor likely has their own facilities or at worst likely will only charge you prorate based on your actually activity.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 152):
Part time employees may not have the benefits but they do give you loyalty more than a contracted employee ever would.

Yet another statement that cannot be proven, and a wildly general accusation made to beat up on service partner staff without any actual proof of service level quality.


I'll say it yet again -- if going out and contracting out handling functions was such a disaster - it would not be done on the global basis by companies left and right including some of the most prolific well respected airline enterprises.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 943 posts, RR: 1
Reply 154, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2189 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 148):
He knew exactly what he was doing. I think he could have gone about that in a much more honest way. But to counter that argument, without yanking the pensions, it's entirely possible that US never would've made it to the merger in 05.

An excellent point about Siegel. And the similar point is this: For as poorly as F9 employees have been/thought they have been treated through the RAH saga, you can make the same counterpoint. Where on earth would Frontier be right now without Republic? It's a rhetorical question, certainly not one you can answer easily. But it's hard to see a scenario in which one could argue F9 was better off restructuring as a standalone carrier.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 155, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2170 times:
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Quoting N908AW (Reply 154):
Where on earth would Frontier be right now without Republic? It's a rhetorical question, certainly not one you can answer easily. But it's hard to see a scenario in which one could argue F9 was better off restructuring as a standalone carrier.

  

If it weren't for Republic there would not be a Frontier.

Despite Sean Menke's fairly heroic endeavours, there was no money anywhere for Frontier to emerge from the Chapter 11 as a stand-alone carrier.

There were only two bidders at the auction - despite the airline going for a relative song. Southwest, who withdrew, and Republic.

The alternative was liquidation - and liquidated airlines employ no one.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 156, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2071 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 153):
Yet another statement that cannot be proven, and a wildly general accusation made to beat up on service partner staff without any actual proof of service level quality.

I thought I stated it pretty clearly from an overall leadership perspective. I do sense some bias though. Because you fail to grasp the core content of my statement you'll have to trust me; If not that's fine too with twenty five years of leadership under my belt which has saved a life or two. Some of that as a COTR who has managed various type people contracts. Lead, follow or get out the way.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineantoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1607 posts, RR: 4
Reply 157, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1946 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 149):
I have to wonder if keeping their own employees part time would have been a better idea.

Their own employees are already part time in most of these places. When you have 2 flights a day, you're not paying people to sit there for the 8 hours between them.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 149):
Contracted employees have no allegiance or loyalty to F9 company.

Most don't. Some do. And depending on the contract company involved (and the management team involved), they may or may not have excessive loyalty to their employer... but, you can't make a blanket statement that none of the people working on a contract basis will be loyal to the carrier that they're doing the work for. You also can't make a blanket statement that all of F9's in-house employees are excessively loyal to the company. Far too many people in this world just simply have no loyalty to anyone but themselves.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 151):
Also have you really tried to maintain a staff of part timers in any business? It a huge headache, as these are fickle folks that don't have much allegiance to you.

I agree, sort of. In my own life I've worked jobs that I've hated and I had no loyalty to the company employing me for substandard wages for too-few hours. On the other hand, I've had jobs that I hated where I got paid pretty well, and I'm STILL loyal to those companies. The same applies for the jobs I've loved, no matter the wages, but that's another matter.


I think there will be a rise in customer service issues. It will not be the avalanche of issues that some here seem to expect, but it will be statistically notable. But it will not outweigh the cost savings for F9, or the fact that F9 has the fare they want to where they're going for the passenger.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 158, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1802 times:

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 157):
Most don't. Some do.

I agree 100%. Aviation is a exciting industry when compared to sitting in a 6' x 6' cubical for 8.5 hours a day. I embrace full up and down communications. I enjoy interacting with people and consider myself old school who opts for face time in lieu of gadgets. I'm a true loyalist to Herb Kelleher and the way he ran WN which for several years was the number one company to work for in the U.S.

I invite anyone to read the Lincoln on Leadership book by Donald Phillips. Mr Phillips flew to Alaska and spoke to us in a small group leadership forum.

A few years ago I did have a bad experience with an AA contracted CSA employee at MDT. He flatly told me was in a dead end job and had no loyalty to the company he worked for. Not the most desirable to have in a front line customer service position with no front line supervision. Those without loyalty generally tarnish a companies image. To this day I have to think long and hard to fly on AA Eagle. I learned along time ago customer service is not a desk; it's a mindset. I've turned down a few jobs because the HR person who interviewed me asked me how may people I've managed. My answer was none. I've lead a bunch though.

[Edited 2013-02-09 10:16:32]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
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