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Flybe/FR Suggest Flybe Ireland  
User currently offlineseansasLCY From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 888 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4728 times:

Flybe and Ryanair have suggested launching Flybe Ireland should Ryanair get approval to buy Aer Lingus.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...ate-new-airline-Flybe-Ireland.html

Interesting developments.

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVFRonTop From Ireland, joined Oct 2012, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4442 times:

I can't help but see this as a last gasp "Hail Mary" for FR, a "Praise the Lord" for BE and slightly insulting slap to the face for EI

User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 469 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4151 times:

Here's what EI's CEO Christoph Mueller has to say about that strange suggestion:

Quote:
"It seems to me so farfetched, this proposition, that we don't bother wasting our time on it," Aer Lingus Chief Executive Christoph Mueller told journalists in a conference call.
"We question very much that Flybe will be an independent competitor to Ryanair and we are working from the assumption that we will be around next year when we talk" at Aer Lingus's 2013 results announcement, he said.

(Source)

I concur with Mueller.



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 469 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

PS: Interesting how the proposition says Flybe Ireland would take over 9 A320 and almost half of EI's short-haul routes. So much for FR's claim they'd maintain EI as an entity after a takeover. I didn't believe that claim to begin with, but I am surprised they dropped their guard on it this early on, rather than 4 weeks after a potential takeover.

Quote:
The deal would see Ryanair transfer to Flybe Ireland 43 European routes, at least nine Airbus A320 aircraft and an undisclosed number of flight crew, engineers, management and facilities to operate the business.

You really have to wonder how that's going to work.
FR is basically saying that they're not just going to take over EI staff against their expressed will, they're also going to move some of them to a new company that is neither FR nor EI, but a completely different entity altogether.
Never mind how they think they're going to be able to achieve that technically, the mere suggestion is pretty bad form in terms of labour relations.

All of these points make a successful takeover all the more unlikely, in my view.



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlineJobsaGoodun From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3673 times:

Gerald Khoo, airline analyst at Espirito Santo, said: “Ryanair’s extensive efforts to overcome the concerns of the European Commission are increasingly placing the burden on the EC to justify why the deal should be blocked.”

In the end it doesn't come down to want the EC want to do, only what is legally right. As has been pointed out by analysts, MOL is making it pretty hard for them to find a reason not to justify the takeover.

The Irish Govt are in a tricky place having taken millions in EU bailout money, it's no surprise that the EC may now be demanding that they sell assets. One of these is a pretty healthy stake in Aer Lingus. The juxtaposition is that in part the EC will want to say yes to get their money back, and in part no, but in the end principle won't overrule the law and neither should it.


User currently offlineEI564 From Ireland, joined May 2007, 373 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

Quoting JobsaGoodun (Reply 4):
“Ryanair’s extensive efforts to overcome the concerns of the European Commission are increasingly placing the burden on the EC to justify why the deal should be blocked.”

Now in fairness, there are plenty reasons why it should be blocked. fFor example, replacing a decent competitor in EI with a struggling smaller airline in BE? Its hard to take that idea seriously.

If there wasn't plenty reasons why it should be blocked then FR wouldn't have to keep submitting new remedies in the hope that something will finally meet the EC's approval. I'd be worried about an analyst who thinks this is working.

And the Irish government has said it would be happy to sell its shareholding in EI. Just not to FR.


User currently offlineJambost From Ireland, joined Jun 2010, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3374 times:

FR 's imagination seem to be lining up their slaughter victims, take out EI, RE will fall not long after, then a year or two later wipe out EI's successor BE Eire. How can BE trust FR will not destroy them with their unbeatable fares, are they desperate or just daft?

I hope this conquest of FR 's will crash and burn for good as I am just sick of hearing it, FR have to accept they are not the only successful airline in Ireland.



1APR14 Ireland Direct, 3 A380-9LR,Equiped Irish Bar & Casino. All Y+ seating. Serving DUB-PER-SYD/MEL
User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 469 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3155 times:

Quoting JobsaGoodun (Reply 4):
Gerald Khoo, airline analyst at Espirito Santo, said: “Ryanair’s extensive efforts to overcome the concerns of the European Commission are increasingly placing the burden on the EC to justify why the deal should be blocked.”
Quoting EI564 (Reply 5):

I'd be worried about an analyst who thinks this is working.

  

Quoting JobsaGoodun (Reply 4):
In the end it doesn't come down to want the EC want to do, only what is legally right. As has been pointed out by analysts, MOL is making it pretty hard for them to find a reason not to justify the takeover.

That's one interpretation - the other is that FR are increasingly desperate. Just think about it: They are willing to inject €150 million, plus 9 A320s, plus the EI brand (having just bought the planes and the brand through the takeover), into a custom-built airline whose sole purpose is to create a carrier stupid enough to enter head-to-head competition with a combined FR/EI. Something, I'd like to remind you, no airline has been willing to do so far, even with the separate FR and EI of today.
With that massive injection of money, staff and equipment from FR, FlyBe pays €1 million (to FR, of course) to be part of the scheme.

Quoting EI564 (Reply 5):
Now in fairness, there are plenty reasons why it should be blocked. fFor example, replacing a decent competitor in EI with a struggling smaller airline in BE? Its hard to take that idea seriously.

If there wasn't plenty reasons why it should be blocked then FR wouldn't have to keep submitting new remedies in the hope that something will finally meet the EC's approval.

...and if not that, then at least set MOL up to start a media campaign complaining how he's been unfairly treated once the FR takeover bid has been formally rejected.

Quoting EI564 (Reply 5):
And the Irish government has said it would be happy to sell its shareholding in EI. Just not to FR.

Yup. Also keep in mind that it wouldn't be in the interest of the Irish government to sell their stake to a company that is likely to cut down staff, and move equipment and staff to a new airline that's on a money drip from FR. Now, if EI was deep in the red you could argue that this may be necessary. But in fact, EI are doing quite well on their own as it is.

The effect of FR's proposal is that Ireland would go from having two profitable Irish airlines (one large LCC and one decent-sized legacy carrier), to having two LCCs, one humongous (FR) and one tiny (FlyBe Ireland). The latter of these would be highly dependent on FR: It would be co-financed by FR (who in turn would own a significant share in it), get rights to the EI brand and planes from FR, and it would have neither the code-share/interline agreements nor sufficient infrastructure to profitably operate in competition against FR. As a side-effect, this move would likely cut off places like Cork almost completely from international airline networks. And as an apropos, the FlyBe deal would also make a tear-down of EI an essential part of the merger, contrary to what FR claimed before.
In summary, FR would actually be in a much, much stronger position than today, with much less competition. And that's before even starting to consider Aer Arann (the 3rd Irish airline...) in all of this, who'd almost certainly go bust once the "Aer Lingus Regional" name and associated agreements are removed - thus getting rid of some more competition for FR.
I don't see at all how this kind of proposal is supposed to alleviate competition concerns.

Plus: As I mentioned, the agreement between FR and FlyBe (Ireland) is only valid for three years, provided the new airline even survives that long. The EU competition authorities usually take a slightly longer-term view than that when evaluating proposed mergers.

Quoting Jambost (Reply 6):
FR 's imagination seem to be lining up their slaughter victims, take out EI, RE will fall not long after, then a year or two later wipe out EI's successor BE Eire. How can BE trust FR will not destroy them with their unbeatable fares, are they desperate or just daft?

I hope this conquest of FR 's will crash and burn for good as I am just sick of hearing it

  

[Edited 2013-02-07 03:44:47]


Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2752 times:

What would happen to EI's long-haul aircraft?

Would FR establish a new long-haul low-cost airline?


User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1876 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2585 times:
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Quoting JobsaGoodun (Reply 4):
Gerald Khoo, airline analyst at Espirito Santo, said: “Ryanair’s extensive efforts to overcome the concerns of the European Commission are increasingly placing the burden on the EC to justify why the deal should be blocked.”
Quoting anfromme (Reply 7):
The effect of FR's proposal is that Ireland would go from having two profitable Irish airlines (one large LCC and one decent-sized legacy carrier), to having two LCCs, one humongous (FR) and one tiny (FlyBe Ireland). The latter of these would be highly dependent on FR: It would be co-financed by FR ................and it would have neither the code-share/interline agreements nor sufficient infrastructure to profitably operate in competition against FR. ..........
In summary, FR would actually be in a much, much stronger position than today, with much less competition. And that's before even starting to consider Aer Arann (the 3rd Irish airline...) in all of this, who'd almost certainly go bust once the "Aer Lingus Regional" name and associated agreements are removed - thus getting rid of some more competition for FR.
I don't see at all how this kind of proposal is supposed to alleviate competition concerns.

Well said. The end result of the FR plan would be to stifle the current healthy competition between 2 successful carriers and kill off another regional carrier in Ireland (and in 3 years time probably the new FlyBe Ireland considering that their assets are NOT ringfenced from the UK operation)

Quoting finnishway (Reply 8):
What would happen to EI's long-haul aircraft?

Would FR establish a new long-haul low-cost airline?

Well FR are more than willing to sell of the EI shorthaul operation.....I assume FR would want to use the EI brand as their key to the longhaul market. Of course they could start up their own,but easier to use an established name, especially when it comes with the personal satisfaction of doing so over the corpse of your most annoying rival.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2530 times:

I get the feeling that BE's interest in this would be the almost certain annihilation of Aer Arann and an end to the threat of competition from EI at BHD. This would be a real shame as the longhaul/regional feeder model is really beginning to work for EI - there is room for more expansion too. I hope the plans are blocked.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2413 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 10):
I hope the plans are blocked.

I really hope not. EU just wants to protect national airlines. I think FR should be able to do what it can do best, transport people and make money. I know not everybody here is a fan of Ryanair or Mr. O'Leary, but I am and I would like to see them flying long-haul and maybe easiest way to start those flights is to buy another airline that already has capabilities for that kind of business.

There is no reason to block this deal. Aviation has to change with the world and politicians must accept that flying is not as glamorous as it used to be a few decades ago at least if you are not flying in the first class.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2373 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 11):
There is no reason to block this deal. Aviation has to change with the world and politicians must accept that flying is not as glamorous as it used to be a few decades ago at least if you are not flying in the first class.

I think you need to read up a little on the details - this is not about the EU protecting airlines. It's largely irrelevant what is or isn't bad for airline 'x' or 'y', this is essentially about what is best for Ireland. Aer Lingus have turned themselves around, they are competitive and profitable and an essential tool in energizing the Irish economy's recovery. The deal Ryanair are proposing appears risky in the mid to long term; it has the potential to compromise connectivity and will eliminate competition on many routes. That would be bad for the economy, at a time when the country is in no shape to face further issues.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1876 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2356 times:
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Finnishway.....as a resident of an island I want to have the choice of 2 mutually competing airlines. This deal will end up with FR controlling air travel from the island of Ireland.

This deal will end up with EI shorthaul gone in 5 years, (along with all its codeshares and interline agreements which help the customer) RE gone in under 3, FR in control of 80% routes from Ireland, FlyBe competing against the most aggressive LCC in the world, and BA using Ireland as a captive market for their LHR centric longhaul network.

Benefits for the customers: I can't see any.


As for the EU protecting national carriers.....well if EI was losing money I would agree with you. Indeed the EI CEO only yesterday stated that he believes weak airlines must be allowed to fail.
EI recently released their 2012 figures that show a 5% profit margin.....in Europe only FR and EZ can beat that.

So FR want to break up a competitor to give them dominance (in Ireland) and access to the USA market while at the same time setting up a weak 'competitor' that is planned to be financially supported by FR to the tune of E20M per year.

FlyBe say they will pay penalties if the do not show commitment to the Irish market......really? So they will hand back the 100M, the 9 aircraft and all the associated operations? I doubt that any penalties imposed will be equal to value of the offer they have accepted. And really, an airline that has to sign an agreement to operate in a fixed manner seems pretty unusual.

You then have BA greedily taking the LGW routes from EI and waiting like a vulture to take the LHR at a later stage......so FR, FlyBe and BA are effectively operating as a cartel in this deal to kill off EI and carve up the corpse amongst themselves.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25838 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 12):
The deal Ryanair are proposing appears risky in the mid to long term; it has the potential to compromise connectivity

What connectivity are you referring to? EI is almost exclusively an O&D carrier to/from Ireland. Ireland's location doesn't make it useful as a connecting hub within Europe, and as far as I know EI doesn't sell much connecting traffic between Europe and the U.S. via DUB.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2279 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
What connectivity are you referring to?

The loss of travel options; frequencies and routes from Irish airports. Sure it's not announced on the deal's packaging, but the bones are there in the ingredients.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
as far as I know EI doesn't sell much connecting traffic between Europe and the U.S. via DUB.

The availability of pre-clearance when transiting at DUB and EI Regional venturing into secondary UK cities was the most significant factor in driving long haul traffic up by 11% last year. There's a lot of growth to be exploited by feeding in from the UK regions.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2198 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 12):
I think you need to read up a little on the details - this is not about the EU protecting airlines. It's largely irrelevant what is or isn't bad for airline 'x' or 'y', this is essentially about what is best for Ireland. Aer Lingus have turned themselves around, they are competitive and profitable and an essential tool in energizing the Irish economy's recovery.

Are you saying that FR isn't profitable and it can't help Irish economy to recover?

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 12):
That would be bad for the economy, at a time when the country is in no shape to face further issues.

New jobs would be good for the economy.

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 13):
This deal will end up with FR controlling air travel from the island of Ireland.

I know that feeling. Isn't it still better that you have at least one airline flying there? If it is too expensive, there probably is ferry available. How can you know that FR would be the only airline to fly there? What if Flybe Ireland starts that route or some other airline?

I would like to fly from my hometown, but at the moment it is impossible due to high prices, because there is no competition. That doesn't mean it has always been expensive to fly from here. For example when Finncomm was flying, it was actually quite cheap and it was the only airline to fly that route. For me there is two options train or bus and there is nothing that I can do about it. So if you can get of the island relatively cheap, there is no reason to complain about it.

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 13):
Benefits for the customers: I can't see any.

Cheaper tickets and more routes.

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 13):
So FR want to break up a competitor to give them dominance (in Ireland) and access to the USA market

They wouldn't be dominating USA market. FR's access to long-haul market could mean total revolution in European air travel and that is what I support.

If there wasn't a reason to block IAG-BD deal there is no reason to block FR-EI deal.


User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1876 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2195 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Ireland's location doesn't make it useful as a connecting hub within Europe, and as far as I know EI doesn't sell much connecting traffic between Europe and the U.S. via DUB.

60% of EI traffic is sourced outside Ireland.......over the last 3 years they have developed a larger market share of Europe/UK to USA vis DUB.


User currently offlinefactsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2128 times:

Now let me get this straight, are we looking at one of the following scenario's:

- 1. EU Blocks Deal = Nothing happens = Everything stays the same, Ireland keeps FR & EI.

- 2. FR Buys EI, Flybe Ireland created = Ireland has FR, EI (FR owned) continues long-haul, Flybe Ireland to Europe

- 3. FR Takes All = FR & Flybe Ireland take over all EI operations short-haul & long haul - surely not?

- 4. FR Gets Part Deal = FR gains selected European routes & aircraft, Flybe Ireland the rest of Europe, EI on long-haul?

Please help me out, which scenario is FR/MOL proposing to Brussels?


User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2086 times:

Quoting factsonly (Reply 18):
Please help me out, which scenario is FR/MOL proposing to Brussels?

The one that includes hangar 6.


User currently offlinetonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1954 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2061 times:
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You take an airline that is not exactly on a sound financial footing and you pump a load of cash into setting up an ever weaker Irish subsidary. All the easier for FR to crush.


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User currently offlineasctty From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2053 times:

I am not sure what the board at FlyBe are signing up to here. They are having a bad time as it is, and the routes they picked up from bmibaby are adding to losses, mainly due to poor scheduling IMHO.

I also have yet to see any evidence from FR that they want to get involved in the Transatlantic business. Other than pure Irish air dominance then, what is the point?


User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 469 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 11):
I really hope not. EU just wants to protect national airlines.

EI isn't a national airline. FR own a larger share in it than the Irish government do, and the Irish government want to sell all of their stake anyway (and are kind of under pressure to do so as well, given the billions in bailout money they received from the other EU countries).
The takeover bid lies with the EU competition authorities. Their concern is not protecting any particular airline, their concern is competition (or lack thereof) and the benefit to customers.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 11):
I think FR should be able to do what it can do best, transport people and make money.

You can rest easy, then - FR are doing just that and nobody's keeping them from doing it.
For the record - FR is not the poor underdog here. They're one of the biggest and most profitable airlines in Europe. They don't need protection.
Or as EI's CEO Christoph Mueller put it in July 2012:

Quote:
"Ironically, the travelling public in Ireland has suffered from the Aer Lingus monopoly for decades. Also ironically, Ryanair liberated that situation a little bit more than ten years ago. It's furthermore very ironical [sic!] that this monopoly should return in another disguise, this time under the flag of Ryanair."

Couldn't agree more.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 11):
I know not everybody here is a fan of Ryanair or Mr. O'Leary, but I am and I would like to see them flying long-haul and maybe easiest way to start those flights is to buy another airline that already has capabilities for that kind of business.

FR surely make enough money and have enough expertise to be able to start that sort of business without buying their main competitor first. If Norwegian can do that (pending delivery of the 787s), I'm quite sure FR can do it. FR's actual and alleged long-haul ambitions are not the subject of the competition authorities' investigation.



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlineabrown532 From UK - Northern Ireland, joined Feb 2008, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

What's to stop a set of private investors buying the Irish Governments share in EI and simply selling to FR at a pre-agreed price just to make a quick euro?

User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 469 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1883 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 11):
There is no reason to block this deal. Aviation has to change with the world and politicians must accept that flying is not as glamorous as it used to be a few decades ago at least if you are not flying in the first class.

It's easy to say "flying isn't as glamorous any more", but it is also a consideration that while (e.g.) FR fly ORK-STD 3 times a day and EI fly ORK-LHR 3 times a day, customers do have much more choice in terms of where they can go, what flight connections they can get, what price and service they get. If those 3 plus 3 daily flights were consolidated into 5 or 6 FR flights ORK-STD that would be less choice for customers and less competition. If you're okay with being treated like cattle in return for paying less (or at least being led to believe that you paid less), that's fine, but healthy competition means that those people that take a different view also get a choice.
Both choices - EI and FR - are quite profitable and have healthy load factors, so I don't see any reason to eliminate either of them.
As PlymSpotter suggested, maybe you want to read up a little on the details. To learn more about EU competition guidelines, check out the commission's website:
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/index_en.html
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/mergers/overview_en.html
You can also read up on why FR's first takeover bid was rejected in 2007 (which as an addendum also included a rejection of EI's request to disallow FR from owning even a minority share in EI):
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/eloj...ase_details.cfm?proc_code=2_M_4439

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 12):
I think you need to read up a little on the details - this is not about the EU protecting airlines. It's largely irrelevant what is or isn't bad for airline 'x' or 'y', this is essentially about what is best for Ireland.

Well, what's best for customers and competition - as such, the EU competition authorities don't even care if the airlines involved here are Irish, German, Portuguese or whatever.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
New jobs would be good for the economy.

And an EI takeover by FR that would dismantle EI and - as collateral damage - bring down Aer Arann would achieve more jobs for the economy how exactly?
Never mind that many multinational companies (Google, Facebook, Apple, Ebay, Paypal, EMC and more) have their EMEA headquarters in Ireland and are consequently receiving many clients on the island. They surely prefer having a "regular" airline to be able to fly customers into Ireland, rather than making the association of Ryanair with their company. So in that sense, a Ryanair monopoly would potentially affect other business and thus jobs on the island as well.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
I know that feeling. Isn't it still better that you have at least one airline flying there?

Pardon? At the moment we have two profitable airlines. Both with different service levels, prices, transfer options, etc.
Why on earth would we want to reduce that to just a single airline?

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
If it is too expensive, there probably is ferry available.

Thanks for being so generous to allow people a choice between FR or the ferry.   
You're obviously neither familiar with ferry prices in general, nor with ferry connections to/from Ireland in particular. Otherwise you'd know that many of them - the Cork-Swansea ferry being one - had to be shut down or at least reduced in frequency. Partly because air travel got cheaper and does not limit you to seaport destinations.
Never mind that ORK-MUC or DUB-ZRH by ferry (to name just two connections currently offered by EI but not by FR) would be one hell of a trip.

Quoting abrown532 (Reply 23):
What's to stop a set of private investors buying the Irish Governments share in EI and simply selling to FR at a pre-agreed price just to make a quick euro?

Competition regulations?
The competition investigation doesn't really care how exactly FR acquires a majority/100% share in EI. It rules over whether FR should be allowed to acquire that share in the first place.

[Edited 2013-02-10 05:28:24]


Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 60
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1903 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
Are you saying that FR isn't profitable and it can't help Irish economy to recover?

Not at all. What I am saying is that Aer Lingus can stand on it's own two feet and is not one of the 'basket case' EU flag carriers propped up by Government funds.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
New jobs would be good for the economy.

The proposed situation would not create new jobs; I should think several hundred would be directly lost, if not more, and that is before you consider the implications of network alterations and the lack of competition affecting the tourist market. Ireland is beautiful, but a good half of all the people I know who have visited did so because it was cheap and easy to get there, creating a monopoly involving FR will change that.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
I know that feeling. Isn't it still better that you have at least one airline flying there? If it is too expensive, there probably is ferry available.

No it really isn't, not when the current status quo is a far better alternative.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
I would like to fly from my hometown, but at the moment it is impossible due to high prices, because there is no competition. That doesn't mean it has always been expensive to fly from here. For example when Finncomm was flying, it was actually quite cheap and it was the only airline to fly that route.

So presumably your local airline had its FinnComm flights taken over by FlyBe Nordic and the prices promptly rocketed. That really doesn't support the argument for FlyBe Eire's involvement in Aer Lingus being beneficial to the consumer.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
Cheaper tickets and more routes.

Mergers and takeovers reduce competition and lead to the exact opposite.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
They wouldn't be dominating USA market. FR's access to long-haul market could mean total revolution in European air travel and that is what I support.

I hate to break it to you, but if this deal was allowed to go through it's not going to result in revolutionary cheap flights from Europe to the US - if you support the deal because of that then you are misguided. Ryanair don't need to buy another airline if they planned such expansion, they could do it themselves (albeit as a separate company) with a much lower cost base. The fact that they haven't yet says it all.

Quoting abrown532 (Reply 23):
What's to stop a set of private investors buying the Irish Governments share in EI and simply selling to FR at a pre-agreed price just to make a quick euro?

There would be restrictive covenants I should imagine.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 469 posts, RR: 11
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1876 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 25):

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
"They wouldn't be dominating USA market. FR's access to long-haul market could mean total revolution in European air travel and that is what I support."

I hate to break it to you, but if this deal was allowed to go through it's not going to result in revolutionary cheap flights from Europe to the US - if you support the deal because of that then you are misguided. Ryanair don't need to buy another airline if they planned such expansion, they could do it themselves (albeit as a separate company) with a much lower cost base. The fact that they haven't yet says it all.

  

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
How can you know that FR would be the only airline to fly there? What if Flybe Ireland starts that route or some other airline?

What if that doesn't happen?
See my previous reply #7 for details on why I don't think it'll come to pass as you hope; case in point being FR's willingness to spend ~€150m, 9 A320 plus staff and infrastructure support to purpose-build (the illusion of) some competition.
By the way - at the moment, I wouldn't take shareholders' approval for granted, either. FR offered €1.30/share while EI stock is currently trading at anywhere between €1.28 and €1.37. If you are asked to sell off any future interest you have in EI's development to FR, you would, if anything, expect a significant premium on the current stock price.
Which brings me back to something I wrote in another thread back when FR submitted their formal bid in July 2012:

Quoting anfromme:
Indeed - what are you going to do with about 29% of an airline that you want to take over, but that you effectively know you won't be able to take over? How about this: Submit a takeover bid you know won't go through but will increase the share price and then sell off your stake, under much swearing and cussing.

If that was the plan all along it actually seems to be working fine for FR.   

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 25):

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
"Cheaper tickets and more routes."
Mergers and takeovers reduce competition and lead to the exact opposite.

  
And that's exactly why the proposed takeover has been nixed once before and is currently again being investigated by competition authorities.



Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1803 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 25):
I hate to break it to you, but if this deal was allowed to go through it's not going to result in revolutionary cheap flights from Europe to the US - if you support the deal because of that then you are misguided. Ryanair don't need to buy another airline if they planned such expansion, they could do it themselves (albeit as a separate company) with a much lower cost base. The fact that they haven't yet says it all.

I am not expecting 20€ tickets to USA, but FR could still offer cheaper tickets than their competitors.

You are right. FR doesn't need to buy another airline to start long-haul operations, but it is the easiest and the fastest way to start such a business. You can't start a new airline today and start flying tomorrow. Mr. O'Leary has talked about ordering 787, but order backlog is long and it means long waiting.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 25):
No it really isn't, not when the current status quo is a far better alternative.

Yes, but I wouldn't complain if there would be at least one airline flying. If it is too expensive then you need to think about other alternatives.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 24):
You're obviously neither familiar with ferry prices in general, nor with ferry connections to/from Ireland in particular. Otherwise you'd know that many of them - the Cork-Swansea ferry being one - had to be shut down or at least reduced in frequency. Partly because air travel got cheaper and does not limit you to seaport destinations.

I am not, but if air travel got cheaper because of the competition it may become expensive again when there is no competition. This would mean better times for ferry companies.


User currently offlineanfromme From Ireland, joined Feb 2012, 469 posts, RR: 11
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1727 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 27):
I am not expecting 20€ tickets to USA, but FR could still offer cheaper tickets than their competitors.

Again: This has nothing to do with the proposed EI takeover.
If FR want to start their own long-haul operations, they're free to do that.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 27):
You are right. FR doesn't need to buy another airline to start long-haul operations, but it is the easiest and the fastest way to start such a business.

At the risk of repeating myself and PlymSpotter:
a) The fastest and easiest way? You do realise how much time and money FR have spent on their multiple EI takeover efforts since 2006? Starting their own long-haul operations would have been a lot easier and quicker, with much less hassle from competition authorities.
b) Again: Long-haul is not not the reason FR are giving for their desire to take over EI.
c) Consequently, any alleged or real long-haul ambitions by FR are not the focus of the competition investigations.
d) Even if FR wanted to take over EI for the long-haul business they would have to comply with competition regulations. No way around that.
e) O'Leary has been talking about FR long-haul since at least 2005 (Source), way before FR even started the first EI takeover bid. That's almost 8 years ago. If FR had really started working on it they could have long taken delivery of long-haul planes and started operating them. But as PlymSpotter already said: " The fact that they haven't yet says it all."

Quoting finnishway (Reply 27):
I am not, but if air travel got cheaper because of the competition it may become expensive again when there is no competition. This would mean better times for ferry companies.

Where have your claims of "cheaper fares, more routes" gone?
What you said just there sums up pretty nicely one of the major objections that competition authorities have to the takeover.
You're basically saying that FR buying EI would indeed reduce competition and route options, and basically blast Ireland back into the days of a single airline monopoly where the only alternative if you want to leave the island is the ferry.
Why exactly should the EU competition authorities - to mention nothing of the Irish people and Irish government - come to the conclusion that this would be a great step forward for the travelling public?

[Edited 2013-02-10 08:31:17]


Flown on: A300B4, A310-200/-300, A319, A320-100/-200, A321-200, A330-200, A340-500/-600, A380-800, An-24, An-26, ATR42,
User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1600 times:

I am not going to argue this about anymore, but I still say a few things.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 28):
If FR had really started working on it they could have long taken delivery of long-haul planes and started operating them.

O'Leary has been spoken about B787. Deliveries started in 2011 and who says Ryanair would have been one of the first to receive Dreamliners?

Quoting anfromme (Reply 28):
Where have your claims of "cheaper fares, more routes" gone?

Nowhere. Ryanair could start 50 new destinations from Ireland if it wants and they would offer cheaper tickets than EI.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 28):
You're basically saying that FR buying EI would indeed reduce competition and route options

Yes and no. One airport may lose a route or two and other airport can get 10 more.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 28):
Ireland back into the days of a single airline monopoly where the only alternative if you want to leave the island is the ferry.

FR isn't the national airline of Ireland. It operates all around Europe and personally I don't care if there is only one route from an island in Ireland. If you need to get away from that island all the time, why do you live there? If you need to fly one time a month, you can use that one route.

Well, I support Ryanair and hope they will be able to buy EI. That is and will be my opinion.


User currently offlinetolmachevo From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1575 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 29):
If you need to get away from that island all the time, why do you live there?

I think this shows the maturity of Finnishway's argument. ATL must be terrible to live in, all those people needing to get away all the time...
  


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 60
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1463 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 27):
You are right. FR doesn't need to buy another airline to start long-haul operations, but it is the easiest and the fastest way to start such a business. You can't start a new airline today and start flying tomorrow. Mr. O'Leary has talked about ordering 787, but order backlog is long and it means long waiting.

When you buy another carrier you inherit it's cost base, and you can't change that tomorrow either. The concept of buying a legacy carrier with the intention of using it as a vehicle to develop a long haul LCC is doomed to fail.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 27):
Yes, but I wouldn't complain if there would be at least one airline flying. If it is too expensive then you need to think about other alternatives.

If thinking about other (non flying) alternatives is the only other answer, then there is something seriously wrong with the rational.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 29):
If you need to get away from that island all the time, why do you live there?

I'm not sure whether to    or to   

Quoting tolmachevo (Reply 30):
I think this shows the maturity of Finnishway's argument.

  

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but backing it with statements like that is not going to make anyone take it seriously.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinePenPusher From Ireland, joined Oct 2000, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1447 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 16):
Cheaper tickets and more routes.

Ryanair, the general perception is their fares are always cheaper, this is not the case, checking a random route DUB-MAN one way 20 FEB EI is €31.99 and FR € 37.99 with same departure times,,,,,,,,says a lot for current situation and how we do not need a takeover by FR


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25838 posts, RR: 22
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1423 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 17):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Ireland's location doesn't make it useful as a connecting hub within Europe, and as far as I know EI doesn't sell much connecting traffic between Europe and the U.S. via DUB.

60% of EI traffic is sourced outside Ireland.....

I wasn't disputing that. With Ireland accounting for less than 1% of Europe's population it's obvious there's going to be more traffic to Ireland than from Ireland, but how much of the 60% of EI traffic originating outside Ireland is O&D traffic to Ireland, as opposed to connecting traffic to the U.S. I have no idea but I would guess the connecting traffic percentage is in the low single digits.


User currently offlinefinnishway From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1296 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 31):

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but backing it with statements like that is not going to make anyone take it seriously.

You don't need to take me seriously. I guess time will show us how this situation develops.


User currently offlineJambost From Ireland, joined Jun 2010, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1282 times:

Quoting finnishway (Reply 29):
If you need to get away from that island all the time, why do you live there?

Just my opinion. Ireland is my home, through the toughest times I held on to my part time job which earned myself a years working holiday to Australia which I very much enjoyed with its paradise feel, but it was not home.
I returned to Ireland purposely paying 20 yo yo's more to fly with EI as no other airline would have felt any more welcoming.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 34):
. I guess time will show us how this situation develops.

Our opinions may conflict but this one I agree with.

To summarise my opinion,

I hope an airline with customer standards like EI will continue to serve the Island of Ireland. FR for me loses out with its lack of customer charm/warmth plus no reclining seats.



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