raffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1651 posts, RR: 4 Posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8987 times:
I've seen pictures of American airlines operating short haul services throughout Europe in the 70s and 80s
with 737s and 727s. Nowaday this sort of operation seems very odd. Why did the American airlines
operate regional hubs so far away from home? Did they not interline/codeshare with airlines over here?
And why did the regional hubs close?
Given that 'airlines' was written with a small 'a' I rather understood that the OP meant airlines from America in general - not any one specific airline.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
dstc47 From Ireland, joined Sep 1999, 1358 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8907 times:
One reason is that German carriers could not serve Berlin and Pan am had a German division which connected Berlin to cities in W Germany. PA and TW also had some add on services with smaller aircraft to connect smaller cities to transatlantic routes
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 5, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8835 times:
There are many previous threads on this subject. Codshares didn't exist in those days. It didn't make economic sense to fly widebodies on short 5th freedom sectors within Europe so they based a few narrowbody aircraft in Europe to operate those tag-on change-of-gauge 5th freedom sectors. They had to be continuations of a U.S.-Europe flight. They couldn't operate stand-alone flights, with the exception of the special rights used by Pan Am to operate their frequent shuttle services between then West Berlin and several cities in what was then West Germany during the years when LH wasn't permitted to serve Berlin. Only U.S., British and French carriers were permitted to serve West Berlin after WWII until Germany was reunited in 1989.
Aviaco From Germany, joined May 2012, 34 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8770 times:
In the late 80s, early 90s Pan Am also sold tickets for FRA-SVO-FRA to local german passengers.
I guess they did so for other destinations, too (Warsaw, Istanbul)
raffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1651 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8698 times:
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2): Given that 'airlines' was written with a small 'a' I rather understood that the OP meant airlines from America in general - not any one specific airline.
Yep, that's what I meant. Airlines from America rather than the actual airline AA
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5): There are many previous threads on this subject.
Sorry, I tried to search and couldn't find anything that completely answered the question.
But you answered my questions very well, thank you. Are there any examples of where European airlines have offered such add on flights within America with smaller aircraft?
Is this the same as the short haul Iberia fleet in South America or the BA 737 classics in South Africa?
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5): They couldn't operate stand-alone flights, with the exception of the special rights used by Pan Am to operate their frequent shuttle services between then West Berlin and several cities in what was then West Germany during the years when LH wasn't permitted to serve Berlin
Wikipedia says that Trans World based a fleet of 727s and operated flights on inter-European routes between Berlin, Frankfurt, London, Zurich, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Vienna, Amsterdam and Istanbul. Does this mean that the flights originated in Berlin
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 19255 posts, RR: 63 Reply 9, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8644 times:
The issue was two-fold, I believe.
1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that IATA had rules to govern codeshares until sometime in the 1980s.
2) Traffic volume wasn't what we have today. Even up to the late 1970s/early 1980s, airlines such as TWA and Pan Am were sending 707s into Europe on multi-stop journeys.
The first codeshare flight I remember booking was around 1987-88 on Continental to LGW, connecting to Transavia to AMS, which carried the CO flight number from DEN.
Quoting raffik (Reply 8): Wikipedia says that Trans World based a fleet of 727s and operated flights on inter-European routes between Berlin, Frankfurt, London, Zurich, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Vienna, Amsterdam and Istanbul. Does this mean that the flights originated in Berlin
Wikipedia wouldn't be reliable in this instance. TWA didn't begin serving AMS until the mid-80s, and those flights were nonstop from JFK.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 11, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8571 times:
Quoting raffik (Reply 8): Are there any examples of where European airlines have offered such add on flights within America with smaller aircraft?
European carriers couldn't carry passengers on domestic sectors within the U.S. as that is cabotage. Similarly, U.S. carriers couldn't (and still can't) carry domestic traffic entirely within one country in Europe. The exception was the previously-mentioned service between West Berlin and points in then-West Germany.
Some European carriers had 5th freedom rights on certain Canada-U.S. sectors and were able to sell those to local passengers. Sabena also once based a 737 in Montreal to operate tag-on services to certain U.S. points. The 737 connected with their widebody flights BRU-YUL/YMX. If memory correct they had no 5th freedom rights on those routes.
BA once operated 757-200s YYZ-JFK-BHX and were able to sell YYZ-JFK. There were a few others over the years.
Quoting raffik (Reply 8): Wikipedia says that Trans World based a fleet of 727s and operated flights on inter-European routes between Berlin, Frankfurt, London, Zurich, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Vienna, Amsterdam and Istanbul. Does this mean that the flights originated in Berlin
TWA didn't have much Berlin service compared to Pan Am. Here's another thread on TWA. TWA Service To Berlin (by USPIT10L Jun 4 2006 in Civil Aviation)
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2377 posts, RR: 7 Reply 12, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8505 times:
Quoting airdfw (Reply 10): Sorry being dumb but what is is 'OP' mean?
Original Poster. That would be the person who started the thread. They referred to him, the OP, when clarifying what they think he meant by "American airlines".
PA operated the 1960-70s intra-Germany services that were mentioned above. The others like TW and UA were for tag-on purposes back before code-sharing and partnerships existed like they do today. Instead of say, UA flying a 747 JFK-LHR-BRU they might have a 727 on the LHR-BRU segment.
Tag-ons in the US by foreign carriers always used the overseas equipment to my knowledge. Like BA didn't have 737s based in the US. They might just have a 747 do LHR-YVR-SEA or QF had a 747 SYD-SFO-YVR for example. CA had a 747SP do PEK-SFO-LAX and PEK-SFO-JFK on different days of the week.
(Some of my above are hypothetical examples, just to illustrate).
You don't see that anymore in the age of code-shares. Like MU wouldn't fly an A340 PVG-LAX-SFO, for example. They'd partner with AA to connect passenger for the LAX-SFO segment. Or BA wouldn't do a 777 LHR-SEA-PDX; they'd code-share with QX for the SEA-PDX connecting traffic.
sevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1127 posts, RR: 10 Reply 13, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8475 times:
TWA had B721s until the early 90s based in both FRA and CDG. There were at least 3 based in FRA that used to all arrive in FRA in time for TW741, the daily B747 to JFK. they were mainly intra German routes but they also operated to VIE, LHR and other destinations.
The CDG routes were to FCO, ATH, TLV, GVA, ZRH and others. They were timed to connect to TWA's transatlantic services to JFK, IAD, BOS, and sometimes LAX. They did change specific routes and destinations to fit with the transatlantic schedule, so this information is by no means exhaustive.
Although not narrowbodies, TWA did also operate the B747, L-1011 and B767 on intra European routes.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 15, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8387 times:
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12): Tag-ons in the US by foreign carriers always used the overseas equipment to my knowledge. Like BA didn't have 737s based in the US. They might just have a 747 do LHR-YVR-SEA or QF had a 747 SYD-SFO-YVR for example. CA had a 747SP do PEK-SFO-LAX and PEK-SFO-JFK on different days of the week.
El Al operated tag-on services between Montreal (then Mirabel airport YMX) and MIA for a while. They contracted that service out to Canadian regional carrier Nordair which used 737-200s on those tag-on flights. They didn't have 5th freedom rights. If memory correct the through passengers to/from MIA transfered between the LY 747 and the Nordair 732 on the ramp at YMX without any customs/immigration formalities.
This is getting off topic since Israel isn't Europe but as a sidenote LY also operated TLV-YYZ-LAX for a while using 767s, and were able to sell local 5th freedom traffic YYZ-LAX-YYZ.
There have been many Canada-U.S. transborder 5th freedom operations over the years involving a dozen or so carriers. The only one left is CX YVR-JFK. PR recently dropped their YVR-LAS tag-on service.
AirCalSNA From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 273 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8171 times:
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12): You don't see that anymore in the age of code-shares. Like MU wouldn't fly an A340 PVG-LAX-SFO, for example. They'd partner with AA to connect passenger for the LAX-SFO segment. Or BA wouldn't do a 777 LHR-SEA-PDX; they'd code-share with QX for the SEA-PDX connecting traffic.
I may be mistaken, but it seems like Asiana flies 747s between LAX and SFO to this day. Although perhaps those are repositioning flights?
hoMsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 827 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8055 times:
Quoting raffik (Reply 8): But you answered my questions very well, thank you. Are there any examples of where European airlines have offered such add on flights within America with smaller aircraft?
Didn't Qantas briefly operate their LAX-JFK service with an A330 (instead of a 747), or is my memory playing tricks on me?
planeguy727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1077 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7929 times:
Quoting hoMsar (Reply 17): Didn't Qantas briefly operate their LAX-JFK service with an A330 (instead of a 747), or is my memory playing tricks on me?
hoMsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 827 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 7824 times:
Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 18): Quoting hoMsar (Reply 17):
Didn't Qantas briefly operate their LAX-JFK service with an A330 (instead of a 747), or is my memory playing tricks on me?
Yes but that A330 was not US based.
True. But it did allow their passengers connecting off of other 747 (and maybe A380?) flights to continue on without having to fly the larger plane across country.
tharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1792 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 7715 times:
are we overstating the importance of codeshares here? the presence or absence of the codeshare doesn't really matter, so long as there was an interline agreement. and I assume the US airlines had interline agreements with the european airlines back then.
maybe it was always more cost-effective for the us airlines to just market connections to european airlines, instead of operating these tags - maybe they just didn't realize it, or didn't do it for prestige reasons. (?)
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 23, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 7656 times:
TG based an A310 in SEA for a while in the early 1990s to operate the SEA-YYZ-SEA sectors of their brief BKK-TPE-SEA-YYZ service. They had 5th freedom rights SEA-YYZ. It must have been very unprofitable, like all other TG efforts to serve North America. It was so brief there aren't any TG photos at SEA.
johnclipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 782 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7559 times:
Just like BA flying a 744 on IAH-DTW-LHR before Bermuda II revisions. I believe Royal Air Maroc used to fly CMN-YUL-JFK with a 747. KE used to fly DFW-LAX-SEL with a 744 before DFW went nonstop (anyone know that flight # as I took the DFW-LAX r/t back in 1999). Few others come to mind, SV Saudi Arabia-JFK-IAD, BA LHR-IAD-MIA with Concorde. LH used to do a FRA-ATL-IAH or MEX flight (think for a time it was to IAH).
25 mjoelnir: American carriers especially Pan Am had extensive European operations. They were operated as international flights between different European countrie
26 Viscount724: Yes they were legally tag-on flights from a transatlantic flight of the same carrier, bearing the same flight number. The only exception, as mentione
27 qf002: This was my first thought as well. UA and DL do pretty much the same thing today in Asia.
28 mjoelnir: You can call that tag on, I do not. When in those days you flew with Pan Am on international flights between European airports, there were not sittin
29 hoMsar: Question regarding these intra-European services: Could a US airline operate them today, or have all of those rights been eliminated/withdrawn since t
30 Polot: US carriers have 5th freedom rights with Europe, and vice versa, so yes they could still do it (In fact a few years ago UA was flying LHR-BRU? during
31 CARST: Then you are plain wrong mjoelnir. By laws governing the "Freedoms of the air", these intra-Europe operations were exactly that, tag-ons, as describe
32 ely747: BA still flies 737s between CPT - JNB although these aircraft have SA registrations.
33 nickofatlanta: Very different - that is a franchise operation. BA marketed and coded flights operated by Comair, a South African owned and operated airline.
34 Lofty: Before code share QF used to operate LHR - MAN - LHR out of T3 but was on a BA Regional B737. Also to protect slots QF did base a BAE146 at T4 which o
35 blueflyer: UA did it several times, both before and after 9/11. Before 9/11, UA had available slots and enough demand to connect several TATL flights to a singl
36 mjoelnir: It is difficuilt sometimes to remember. Could it be that quite a few of this flights had been "tag ons" to flights orginating in Berlin? As I say the
37 lychemsa: I think you mean TWA and PAN AM. PAN AM operated a 747 to Zurich with a 727 on from Zurich to Istanbul. TWA would operate a 747 to Paris with a 727 on
38 Navigator: PanAm had intra German flights to and from Berlin but apart from that both TWA and PanAm operated an extensive network of flights in Europe connectin
39 SouthernDC9: Wasn't Pan Am 103 a flight like this - it started in Frankfurt with 727 then those passengers switched over to 747 at LHR?
40 shuttle9juliet: Yes it was and it was to terminate in Detroit.
41 ckfred: Didn't at one time, BA used to send one of its LHR-ORD non-stops on to IAH, where it turned and flew back to ORD and LHR? Obviously, BA didn't carry p
42 Polot: Yes, this was because the Bermuda II bilateral prevented BA from flying LHR-IAH nonstop and BA wanted an IAH connection to LHR for oil traffic reason
43 jwhite9185: The BA ones in South Africa are actually a franchise of BA. They're operated by Comair which is a separate airline. Much like how the LCY operation i
44 BSRadar: Wasn't Pan Am 103 a flight like this - it started in Frankfurt with 727 then those passengers switched over to 747 at LHR? Indeed. Flight 103 origina
45 Viscount724: Comair is a very different operation from BA CityFlyer (their current name) The latter is a BA subsidiary, 100% owned by BA. Comair is an independent
46 Viscount724: With the current US-EU Open Skies agreement, US carriers have even more flexibility than they did when they operated these 5th freedom tag-on service
47 factsonly: It is not just US airlines that operated sectors within Europe. Here is a list of what I could find for ALL airlines that operated 5th Freedom on LHR-
48 factsonly: OK, how about this one for a Short Haul European regional flight by a US carrier. Operated today 8 February 2013 by Delta Airlines A330-300: - DL 8820
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Yep, that's what I meant. Airlines from America rather than the actual airline AA
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