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CX To Lauch 5th Daily LHR  
User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 12065 times:

On June 27, CX will be launching a fifth daily HKG LHR service:

CX239 HKG LHR 1025 1615
CX238 LHR HKG 2235 1715

This flight will operate with a 3-class B77W (without First Class service).

Where does the LHR slot to operate this service come from? Is it NZ's soon to be abandoned HKG LHR HKG slot or did CX find a different source. As fas as I know, no replacement for the NZ slot has so far been announced.

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 11778 times:

Yes. it is the NZ slot

User currently offlineDolphinAir747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11704 times:

I understand the need for VLAs now...

User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10699 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11618 times:

High time to get 748s or A380 for CX. Five flights per day to LHR, what a waste.

User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11509 times:

Why a waste? The number of HKG-LHR flights has actually reduced (used to be 11, plus one to LGW, it is now 9 I think)

User currently offlineDolphinAir747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11473 times:

Quoting Lutfi (Reply 4):
Why a waste? The number of HKG-LHR flights has actually reduced (used to be 11, plus one to LGW, it is now 9 I think)

LHR slots are very expensive, as iare the extra cists from fuel, pilots, etc.


User currently offlineDolphinAir747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11457 times:

Wait...without F service? If a HKG-LHR flight (because CX has F on other LHR flights, but still) cannot sustain F, I wonder if any route in the world can.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30901 posts, RR: 87
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11394 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 3):
High time to get 748s or A380 for CX. Five flights per day to LHR, what a waste.

Looking at the updated schedule, while this new flight is very close to an existing flight, the others are spread out a bit more through the day:

HKG -LHR

CX255 dep 0035 local arrive 0620 local B744
CX257 dep 1005 local arrive 1600 local B77W
CX239 dep 1025 local arrive 1615 local B77W - New Flight
CX253 dep 1400 local arrive 2030 local B77W
CX251 dep 2355 local arrive 0540 local (next day) B77W

LHR- HKG

CX252 dep 1230 local arrive 0705 local (next day) B744
CX250 dep 1820 local arrive 1305 local (next day) B77W
CX256 dep 2015 local arrive 1505 local (next day) B77W
CX254 dep 2220 local arrive 1705 local (next day) B77W
CX238 dep 2235 local arrive 1715 local (next day) B77W - New flight


Does CX expect to pick up most of the ex-NZ passengers? If NZ was using a 747-400, the total seats on the route are relatively close (379 for NZ vs. 340 for CX).


Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 6):
Wait...without F service?

I am guessing the other flight departing in the same block has First Class?

[Edited 2013-02-06 17:22:25]

User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6417 posts, RR: 38
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 11388 times:

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 6):

They know which flights F travellers go on.. Generally they wouldn't take day flights when you can fly overnight. It also increases Y capacity quite substantially. What's missed in the OP is the fact that the 4-class 77W operates on a Wednesday; more likely due to lack of 3-class 77Ws than anything I'd imagine.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11361 times:

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 5):

True, and as you can see, the total number of flights has dropped. (QF/BA/VS have all reduced flights) Actually, it is now 8 flights a day (down from 11) and this extra CX flight will mean capacity stays the same. Only difference is that CX now has 63% of the flights, whereas before they had 36% (4/11, now 5/8)


User currently offlineDolphinAir747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11360 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 8):
They know which flights F travellers go on.. Generally they wouldn't take day flights when you can fly overnight. It also increases Y capacity quite substantially. What's missed in the OP is the fact that the 4-class 77W operates on a Wednesday; more likely due to lack of 3-class 77Ws than anything I'd imagine.

Well, that's an extra reason to eliminate the extra day flights and consolidate them into fewer flights...


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6417 posts, RR: 38
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11281 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Does CX expect to pick up most of the ex-NZ passengers? If NZ was using a 747-400, the total seats on the route are relatively close (379 for NZ vs. 340 for CX).

NZ have operated the 772 on this route for a while - it was only a 744 right at the beginning and was changed not long after. Either way, NZ passengers can't codeshare on the LHR services yet (for some reason or another).. The only way to get to LHR on NZ remains via LAX. In other words, this easily covers the capacity of passengers heading to LHR; though there would be many NZ passengers terminating in HKG.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 10):
Well, that's an extra reason to eliminate the extra day flights and consolidate them into fewer flights...

What are you on about?



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineairdfw From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 11154 times:

Are these frequencies are the biggest in terms from Hub to hub connection (long haul)? Does anybody else like UA-LH has this kind of frequencies?

User currently offlineChazPilot From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 80 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10968 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Does CX expect to pick up most of the ex-NZ passengers? If NZ was using a 747-400, the total seats on the route are relatively close (379 for NZ vs. 340 for CX).

I think CX is more interested in the increasing # of Mainland visitors to the UK, which is taking active steps to be more China-tourist friendly and is even in the process of revamping the visa application process to be more streamlined with that of continental Europe (France currently still scores 5x number of high spending Chinese tourists than UK!) And given the choice, most Chinese intl. travelers much prefer to fly CX - even with the added connection - than fly direct on, say, MU or CA.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30901 posts, RR: 87
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10922 times:
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Quoting NZ107 (Reply 11):
NZ have operated the 772 on this route for a while - it was only a 744 right at the beginning and was changed not long after.

Thank you. Are the 1025 and 2235 slots similar to what NZ had? Or was CX allowed to adjust them?



Quoting ChazPilot (Reply 13):
I think CX is more interested in the increasing # of Mainland visitors to the UK...

And thank you, as well.

I'm guessing they have seen strong demand at those two times (~1000 ex-HKG and ~2200 ex-LHR)? If so, did CX consider moving CX257 and CX238 to a 747-400 for the additional Economy seating? Or is demand strongest in Business and Premium Economy (which the four-class 777-300ER offers more of in comparison to the four-class 747-400)?


User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10892 times:

I find it interesting that CX and for instance not one of the Middle Eastern carriers got its hands on the NZ slot. LHR slots are increasingly hard to come by and the last major transaction before this NZ to CX swap was the SA CPT slot which went to SQ.

Coming up are the QF LHR BKK and LHR HKG slots, which have been temporarily leased out to BA, but which are expected to go to EK once they are returned from lease. Apart from those, there are no immediate signs of any LHR slots being vacated, although if the situation at GF continues to go downhill that 2 pairs of LHR slots, including one prime morning arrival may become available.


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5635 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10894 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
the others are spread out a bit more through the day:

Not really:
HKG-LHR
CX251/255 are 40 min apart
CX257/230 are 20 min apart

LHR-HKG
All flights, except CX252 are within a 4:15 window and three of them are within a 2:20 window.

Surely CX251/255 could be combined IF an A388 was big enough. (I now think I understand why CX may want the A389!) and CX257/239 certainly could. Eastbound CX254/238 seem obvious, but same condition as CX251/255, surely CX 250/256 could be combined at about 1900.(Slot constraints aside)
BTW I assume NZ has leased the LHR slots to CX, anybody know for how long?

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10840 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
I find it interesting that CX and for instance not one of the Middle Eastern carriers got its hands on the NZ slot. LHR slots are increasingly hard to come by and the last major transaction before this NZ to CX swap was the SA CPT slot which went to SQ.

CX & NZ did a codesharing deal, and I guess CX buying/ leasing the slots from NZ was part of that deal (so there is now CX/NZ codesharing on the HKG-AKL flights, and will be on HKG-LHR)

I think CX has bought the slots, not leasing, but we won't know until the annual reports come out


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6417 posts, RR: 38
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10812 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Thank you. Are the 1025 and 2235 slots similar to what NZ had? Or was CX allowed to adjust them?

Seems like the slots are within half an hour of NZ's current timings - adjusted for daylight saving of course. Currently, NZ35 lands at 1445 (30 min off the daylight saving arrival of 1615) and departs as NZ38 at 2105 (30 min off the daylight saving departure of 2235).

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
I find it interesting that CX and for instance not one of the Middle Eastern carriers got its hands on the NZ slot.

Why? It wouldn't make sense for NZ to sell it - I'm sure they could operate another route to LHR sometime in the future; possibly from another point in North America. So it is highly likely it was leased to CX. NZ isn't that close with any Middle Eastern carriers either.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5635 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10780 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
Coming up are the QF LHR BKK and LHR HKG slots, which have been temporarily leased out to BA, but which are expected to go to EK once they are returned from lease

That's interesting! Is this just speculation or is there a more concrete basis for it?
Whatever, I can't see QF selling the LHR slots, they very well may lease them to EK once they are returned from BA but I just cannot see them being transferred permanently to anybody. I fully expect QF to return to four daily LHR flights, although not for a while, maybe not even until the 2020-2025 or even 2025-30 time frame.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1561 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10763 times:

Quoting na (Reply 3):
High time to get 748s or A380 for CX. Five flights per day to LHR, what a waste.

On one of the world's most lucrative and trafficked long-haul routes? Hardly a waste.



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlinePHLwok From United States of America, joined May 2007, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10732 times:

Quoting airdfw (Reply 12):
Are these frequencies are the biggest in terms from Hub to hub connection (long haul)? Does anybody else like UA-LH has this kind of frequencies?

I would think JFK-LHR is probably the winner in this regard. On Fri Mar 1, for example, I see 4 flights on VS, 3 on DL, 5 on AA and 7 on BA for a total of 19 versus 8 on HKG-LHR on BA/CX/NZ/VS.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3236 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10589 times:

Quoting na (Reply 3):
High time to get 748s or A380 for CX. Five flights per day to LHR, what a waste.

What a good schedule you mean. However much you might wish, they don't need the B747-8, it's not that much bigger than the B77W, indeed the CX257 / 256 is often an A343. Seems that all the worlds B77Ws end up in LHR one day, I hadn't even realises there were two configs til now! Good news indeed.

[Edited 2013-02-06 21:10:35]

User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1696 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9478 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
CX257 dep 1005 local arrive 1600 local B77W
CX239 dep 1025 local arrive 1615 local B77W - New Flight
Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
CX254 dep 2220 local arrive 1705 local (next day) B77W
CX238 dep 2235 local arrive 1715 local (next day) B77W - New flight

I´m not sure if CX will ever order the A380 but this two flights are perfectly suitable to be replace by one A380 only.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 22):
I hadn't even realises there were two configs til now! Good news indeed.

Actually according to seatguru the B777-300 has 5 different versions.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9395 times:

I think CX operated five daily LHR-HKG flights for a period of time before before the financial crisis, but unless I'm mistaken the fifth flight departed LHR much earlier in the day (at around 4-5pm).

If QF leases two slot pairs to EK, this will incense BA.


25 CX Flyboy : Actually we have 3 different configs for our 77Ws, one with 3 class including first. One 3 class with premium economy but no first class and a 4 clas
26 gemuser : I doubt it, its just business. And I not really sure EK would want 2 extra slot pairs seeing EK only has 4 banks (or 3.5 if you prefer) 7 slots seems
27 nickofatlanta : I think the two LHR slot pairs that QF are not using are leased to BA.
28 jfk777 : Cathay is a frequency airline even on their longest routes, why would that change ? Would you be saying "waste" if the flights were 5 A380's ?
29 justinlee : I think DXB-LHR is the No.2. For today, there are 5x388 by EK, 1x744 and 2x777 by BA, 1x333 by VA and 1x772 by BI: a total of 10 but 5x388, which mea
30 factsonly : DXB-LHR is definitely getting into to the high frequency & high capacity long-haul market, especially with 7x A380 daily this Summer 2013. - 01:00
31 babybus : I think CX look like a likely candidate for an A380 or two. Flying to Heathrow you don't need to have such frequency to connect well. LHR has plenty o
32 CXB77L : How so? HKG-LHR is one of the highest demand routes, and by increasing frequency they are both increasing capacity as well as choice for the customer
33 HKG212 : If you add LCY-JFK and LHR-EWR, with additional BA, VS, and UA flights, the number of available seats between NYC-LON is much, much higher than LHR-D
34 bthebest : I'm assuming its the timing of the slot that dictates where the new flight is? Otherwise it would make sense to move the 3 original LHR-HKG evening d
35 CX Flyboy : Your assumption is correct. CX, along with most operators at LHR simply do not have the luxury of picking what slot they want. Even getting a slot is
36 Post contains images lightsaber : But does CX have enough routes to maintain a sub-fleet of VLAs? IMHO, 17 is the minimum economic number for an airframe. Thank you. Did 238 catch one
37 flyinghippo : CX is desperately trying to get rid of 744 on long haul routes due to the high fuel prices. Even if they can pack a 744, they're still losing $$ on r
38 ecbomberman : Any proof of that? I think CX is an airline which give CHOICES to their customers. Plus I believe if they can fill up the front end (a la First and B
39 Post contains links flyinghippo : http://www.businesstraveller.asia/as...c-announces-readjusted-routes-to-s In an internal newsletter to CX employees (Which I cannot find right now), i
40 PW100 : We might be overlooking an important factor here. True, the number of flights might have reduced, but what about the NET capacity HKG-LHR? Important
41 YULWinterSkies : Indeed. Time has come. Because if you look at the schedule below, they are only flown over 3 time slots one way and four time slots the other way. CX
42 skipness1E : Not sure how you get two B77W loads onto an A380. So you sell the slots to the other guy then get slammed in a pincer movement on frequency? How many
43 Post contains images Stitch : An 80m A380-900 would offer about the same cabin floor space as two 777-300ERs (though you might not be able to actually fit the same number of seats
44 TC957 : When is the first CX 77F due ?
45 gemuser : Yes, but only for two years from when HKG/BKK-LHR ceased. The talk of the slots going to EK is *after* the two years is up. Gemuser
46 skipness1E : Didn't they swap them with CA for more B747-8Fs?
47 Stitch : There have been rumors to that effect, but Boeing still shows 2 747-8F and 8 777F still on order.
48 workhorse : Why not 22 (44-22)? Why not 44 ((44-11)+(44-11)-22)?[Edited 2013-02-07 23:54:22]
49 CXB77L : How so? There's no aircraft available at present that can carry the same load as 2 x 777-300ERs. If they had combined two flights into one they might
50 Post contains images Stitch : Yeah. What you said. Still, if CX is using 77Ws for the cargo volume as well as the passenger volume, then they're going to be giving up a fair bit o
51 wawaman : I tried to book with NZ for April to fly LHR->AKL via HKG and could not find any evidence that NZ have a code share on the LHR->HKG leg. I even
52 Post contains images workhorse : No problem You're right, the 77W's cargo advantage over other airplanes (with the exception of the A350-1000) is huge. The 388 has 38 LD3 positions w
53 skipness1E : Thats the key issue, image. Does Malaysian really need a small fleet of A388s? Are Thai going to fill the flying forehead? (I love that phrase!) For s
54 Stitch : At the time MH and TG placed their orders (2003 and 2004, respectively), the A380-800 was the only available 747-400 replacement is you operated a th
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