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New Frontier Part 41  
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4435 posts, RR: 6
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 19478 times:
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Due to length, please continue the discussion here.

Previous thread: New Frontier #40 (by iowaman Jan 1 2013 in Civil Aviation)

246 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 19396 times:
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TTN should be careful spending major money but they NEED to do something about the non-existent bathroom after security and the potential overcrowding when F9 launches non-FL (or LA). If one flight gets delayed and another group comes for their flight there is going to be no room. They need to bring a trailer in use that for baggage claim and use the baggage claim area for security (obviously putting up walls to make things secure then they can take the waiting area and turn it into one big area. Hopefully the engineer will have some plans.


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5127 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 19407 times:

Now that Siegel has kicked all of its remaining outstation workers to tbe curb... His next step is to slash throats in Denver. He is going for the pilots and flight attendants pay next. This mans history has repeated itself many times. He goes straight for the workers and drains them clean.

I wish the above and below wing employees had voted to be union. I know the anti union lovers will burn me for saying this..... But this is why it is so important for workers in the airlines to be union. Contracts help prevent Siegels of the world from just walking up and snatching your wallets out of your pocket.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 1607 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 19384 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 2):
Contracts help prevent Siegels of the world from just walking up and snatching your wallets out of your pocket.

What threshold of flights do you expect a ticket/baggage agent contract would have required to keep mainline employees? Even in the most pro-labor contract imaginable, I doubt most F9 stations would reach that level.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1329 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19341 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 2):
He is going for the pilots and flight attendants pay next.

If that was the plan, then why didn't Bryan Bedford do that in 2011 during the major restructure?


And...it would seem quite the revisionist history to blame him for everything that happened at US Airways. He told the employees exactly what needed to happen. Their costs, including labor, were absolutely out of control. They didn't like hearing that, and he left.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 19184 times:
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January traffic:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...eports-january-2013-172200875.html

"For the month, Frontier’s load factor increased by 7 points from January 2012 to a new January record of 87%.

Frontier’s traffic decreased 11%, to 0.8 billion revenue passenger miles (RPMs) on a 16% decrease in capacity to 0.9 billion available seat miles (ASMs). Frontier Airlines served 0.8 million passengers in January."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 19147 times:
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A good article on CVG:

http://communitypress.cincinnati.com...er-survive-where-others-dared-fly-

"Can Frontier survive where others dared fly?

When Frontier Airlines launches operations at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport this spring, it will be the latest low-cost carrier to give it a go here.

So will a low-cost carrier work here this time?"


Delta has responded, it has matched fares. It was planning to use an A320 on the route for the summer anyway, but has brought forward the start of that to early May and will be flying daily instead of 6 x weekly.

But - so far - that's it and I think Frontier can live with that sort of response and should have been expecting at least that.

Meanwhile:

"Frontier ticket bookings on the CVG-to-Denver flight are “very strong, somewhat ahead of expectations,” airline spokeswoman Kate O’Malley said."

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-07 10:19:08]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19065 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy in previous thread:

Quote:
For one thing TTN has twice the amount of people within a 35-40 minute drive.
Philadelphia and Newark are more crowded and delay prone than DEN.

[this regards my question about why TTN service should succeed while COS service did not]

I've seen that mentioned. I just found the FAA Regional Airspace Study, which delineates about 5 million in TTN's catchment of 9 counties. I can't find specifics, but I'm estimating the catchment for COS is something over 1 million. As far as catchments are concerned, an airport in less-dense Colorado should have a much larger catchment, with fewer airport choices. Trenton's designated catchment is generous, given some counties are closer to EWR or PHL. If I were similary generous about COS, I'd be able to include half of Denver's metro, so add another million, and another 200,000 for counties immediately south. Still, as you say, about half of TTNs.

True on the comparison to large, delay-prone airports. Another time factor is simple the big-airport time budget, needing more time to park and get through. Works for me, but not for passengers who would still elect to bypass the closer, more convenient airport.


Quoting FRNT787 from previous thread:

Quote:
The market overlap is a huge part of it in my opinion. TTN by default is an improvement because it doesn't have it.

Are you saying TTN won't have market overlap with PHL or EWR (or even ABE)? Unless I'm reading it wrong, I disagree.

-Rampart


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18972 times:

F9 press release for the New England and mid Atlantic snow event this weekend. http://media.flyfrontier.com/article....cfm?article_id=5431&view_id=1290&


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 888 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 18910 times:
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Frontier in CVG will probably get handled by DGS irregardless of Delta also flying to DEN on an A320.

User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1329 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 18788 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 7):
Are you saying TTN won't have market overlap with PHL or EWR (or even ABE)? Unless I'm reading it wrong, I disagree.

No. I am saying that it won't have the kind of overlap for F9 that COS did. Certainly the market there overlaps with PHL and EWR. F9 is able to serve those markets through TTN. COS, in my opinion, did not provide that oppurtunity. I do not deny market overlap, that's why ABE is going. I just see the impact of that overlap for F9 as different than COS



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinen917me From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 730 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 18496 times:

Ok..have to chime in... on the outsourcing conference call it was brought up that 60% of the stations are outsourced... but what wasnt brought up was the fact that of those 60% how many are seasonal or less than daily? Yes.. it makes sense to outsource the seasonal/less than daily, but not your daily year round cities. That 60% sounds good until you break it down.

User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18468 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 7):
Quote:
For one thing TTN has twice the amount of people within a 35-40 minute drive.
Philadelphia and Newark are more crowded and delay prone than DEN.

[this regards my question about why TTN service should succeed while COS service did not]

COS failed simply because airfares from DEN are so cheap, and significantly more destinations and frequencies are offered from there as well. The COS experiment was WestPac 2.0.

As for TTN, I think fares are already pretty low to Florida, especially from EWR. I think TTN will get more people from PHL than EWR. As for the non Florida cities, they chose destinations where there is no Low cost carrier service to/from PHL/EWR (save ATL) so the catchment area may be more balanced to both EWR and PHL.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18445 times:
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Quoting n917me (Reply 11):
Ok..have to chime in... on the outsourcing conference call it was brought up that 60% of the stations are outsourced... but what wasnt brought up was the fact that of those 60% how many are seasonal or less than daily? Yes.. it makes sense to outsource the seasonal/less than daily, but not your daily year round cities. That 60% sounds good until you break it down.

I don't know why it doesn't make sense.

"Old" Frontier consistently lost money and despite the present profitability, Frontier's costs are still too high relative to its peer group - Allegiant and Spirit.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 18284 times:
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Quoting rampart (Reply 7):

I just read a February 3rd editorial by Robert Prunetti, CEO of the Mid-Jersey Chamber of Commerce and he said there are 4 million people within a 40 minute drive of TTN. There is only 3 million people in the combined Denver Metro area and the Colorado Springs metro area.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinejetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2851 posts, RR: 33
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 18273 times:

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 9):
Frontier in CVG will probably get handled by DGS irregardless of Delta also flying to DEN on an A320.

Doesn't matter.

United had the Frontier-OKC contract for part of 2012. Despite both having flights departing minutes apart to Denver. Guess it's not a conflict of interest.



No info
User currently onlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18134 times:
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Has anyone else flown thru TTN? I am a bit anxious that once the new flights come in any delays could cause a bit of an issue with the overcrowding if people from more than one flight were to be in the airport before the gate area is expanded.


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 17866 times:

DEN-FAI may see some additional people volume this year in that 2013 is the Centennial of the first mountain climbers to reach the south peak on Mt. McKinley (Denali) a.k.a.or the Great One in 1913.

http://juneauempire.com/state/2013-0...ark-denali-centennial#.URj6_GdkWEw

The launch date for the trek up the mountain is scheduled for June 7. Historically tourism and mountain climbing enthusiast visit the park to monitor the climbers progress and cheer them on as the climbers trek the tallest mountain in North America.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinefloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2018 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 17848 times:

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 9):
Frontier in CVG will probably get handled by DGS irregardless of Delta also flying to DEN on an A320.

Frontier in CVG is handled by mainline DL, not DGS.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7720 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 17811 times:

Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 18):

Being handled by Delta is a very odd choice. Perhaps there was no other option. General rule is never to be handled by a nonstop competitor.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 17725 times:
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Connecting dots - DEN-GSO - 3 x weekly.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...op-seasonal-between-170000943.html

Frontier Announces Nonstop Seasonal Service Between Denver and Greensboro Beginning May 1"

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3847 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 17703 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
Connecting dots - DEN-GSO - 3 x weekly.

I like it, that makes sense. Two in a row. GSO is a big enough area to make that work, whether or not they market it properly is on them. RDU has N/S to DEN on WN I believe, so F9 setting up in GSO replicates what they've done in CLE and CVG.

If/when WN adds CLT-DEN, I'm interested to see what F9's response will be.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 17663 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
Connecting dots - DEN-GSO - 3 x weekly.

There used to be a Carolina thread here, but haven't seen this pop up for a while. I would think that the AA/US merger would have a lot going on in that.

And going further here, there were a few posters on this Carolina thread that have been predicting this DEN-GSO route for about the last 4-5 years.......... and it looks as though they are finally correct with this. So............. where's the gloating? (  )

Anyways..... I personally think that this is a good route, especially for the folks around GSO. And even though GSO is sorta between RDU and CLT, I also personally think that the folks around there will be happy with F9 here, and this is a route that will grow as well with time.

Good luck to F9 and GSO............ and now time to impress that old saying of "use it or lose it."


 

[Edited 2013-02-11 10:06:21]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 17638 times:
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Quoting floridaflyboy (Reply 18):
Frontier in CVG is handled by mainline DL, not DGS.
Quoting enilria (Reply 19):
Being handled by Delta is a very odd choice.

As I suggested in another thread - Frontier's relationship with Delta "may" have changed. Others disagreed, of course.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 21):
If/when WN adds CLT-DEN, I'm interested to see what F9's response will be.

I doubt that Frontier would respond to that, at least not directly. Silent Siegel's MO is to make whatever Southwest does - as far as is possible - irrelevant to what Frontier does.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1329 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 17618 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 23):
As I suggested in another thread - Frontier's relationship with Delta "may" have changed. Others disagreed, of course.

Well, at the very least Republic's relationship with Delta certainly seems to have strengthened.

At the end of 2009, RAH operated 40 aircraft for DL. 24 E145s and 16 E175.

The next change was 2011, when they added 14 E170s to the total contract.

By the end of 2012, There was an addition of 7 E145s.

This year: RAH has agreed to provide two additional E145s through April. In April, they will add 8 more aircraft to the DL Chautauqua contract, and extend the contract on the aircraft added last year through the first half of 2014.

At the end of this year, RAH will operate 30 E Jets and 41 E145s.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 17707 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 23):
Frontier's relationship with Delta "may" have changed.
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 24):
Republic's relationship with Delta certainly seems to have strengthened.

Maybe it will end up DL as being some party in this anticipated F9 divestiture?

 


User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 17699 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 12):

COS failed simply because airfares from DEN are so cheap, and significantly more destinations and frequencies are offered from there as well. The COS experiment was WestPac 2.0.

No, WestPac 1.0 was a longer experiment. And it caved due to competition from and lure of... Frontier. I still maintain it might have persisted if it hadn't have gone bonkers with expansion. WestPac, that is.

I've come to believe that COS is not one of those places that can get by with charging a premium from which to travel. TTN may be the same. Used to be that alternative or secondary airports (think BUR, ONT, SWF) were places to find bargain airfares compared to the busy major airports. Lure people away with cheaper service. Isn't that what happens with Luton and Stanstead, or is that no longer the case, either? It's all about maximizing the margins, I know, but if a competitor airline figured out how to bleed a metro area in the other direction with volumes of cheaper travel, there would be money to be made. I think. In F9's case, maybe that's competing with themselves, in both DEN and PHL. But if it's the same air fare to the same places, shouldn't it be a wash for the airline, rather than a negative? And if it is the same, wouldn't it further develop a friendly following at the local, secondary airport? i.e. build a bigger market? You know, the Southwest Effect??   Someone's gotta do it now that WN isn't.

-Rampart


User currently offlinekcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3847 posts, RR: 7
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 17792 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 23):
I doubt that Frontier would respond to that, at least not directly. Silent Siegel's MO is to make whatever Southwest does - as far as is possible - irrelevant to what Frontier does.

That why they're leaving DAY and CAK?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 17791 times:
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Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 27):
That why they're leaving DAY and CAK?

It isn't always what it seems. Both the moves consolidate Frontier operations - and connect the dots.

They have to have aircraft at both CLE and CVG for the CUN/PUJ flights - that aircraft also serves other CUN/PUJ routes such as PHL - and (the non-rev) flight DEN-CLE was expensive as well as a waste of aircraft time, especially given the constrained fleet.

Each is also a move to a primary airport. On a couple of flights in February, CLE-DEN has some of the highest one way fares in the system.

The bonus is that it removes them from direct competition with Southwest, helping to make whatever Southwest does - at CAK and DAY - irrelevant to Frontier.

Now - if Southwest ever starts DEN-CLE or DEN-CVG, it may be different, but that hasn't happened yet and they can make hay while the sun shines.

 

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-11 12:05:33]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineuncgso From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 17565 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
Connecting dots - DEN-GSO - 3 x weekly.

Good news! this has been a long time coming...now cmon Triad, support it!! also looks like PTAA want F9 to eventually open a focus city at GSO ... and still confused with the TTN-RDU route ... still think it shoulda been TTN-GSO fwiw
http://www.news-record.com/home/7307.../frontier-adding-direct-flights-to

Quoting point2point (Reply 22):
There used to be a Carolina thread here

yeah i miss those threads ...


User currently offlineplanesarecool From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 4124 posts, RR: 11
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 17542 times:

There are 3 Frontier A319s outside the Aeroturbine hangar in Goodyear, the most recent of which arrived today. Are these being parted out/scrapped?

User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 17512 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
Connecting dots - DEN-GSO - 3 x weekly.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...op-seasonal-between-170000943.html

Frontier Announces Nonstop Seasonal Service Between Denver and Greensboro Beginning May 1"

mariner

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see DEN-COU as well. That would round out the MCO routes with all of them being connected to DEN. I don't count SHD as I highly doubt they'll be back there next fall.

I'd certainly be happy with DEN-COU/JNU/MSO to round out the summer schedule


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 17506 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 31):
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see DEN-COU as well.

I wouldn't fall over in shock to see DEN-COU.

As to SHD, well - maybe. But the airport guy was right, the loads have been very good. I think there's a reasonable chance it may come back- hope so anyway.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 31):
I'd certainly be happy with DEN-COU/JNU/MSO to round out the summer schedule

I'm less keen on JNU - I think the traffic may be there, but I think Alaska would go NUCLEAR.

 

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1751 posts, RR: 12
Reply 33, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 17424 times:
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Quoting planesarecool (Reply 30):
There are 3 Frontier A319s outside the Aeroturbine hangar in Goodyear, the most recent of which arrived today. Are these being parted out/scrapped?

At least one of them is going back. I believe 2 319's are going back in these upcoming months.

A used 319 from China just arrived in GYR as a replacement. It's being leased from CIT and has a line number around 1400.

Speaking of F9's 319 fleet, I was just on 905 the other day and boy is the interior showing a lot of ragged wear and tear. The overhead bins in particular need to be resurfaced.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 17343 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 32):
I think Alaska would go NUCLEAR.

Of course they would but as a business are you going to run or hide from your potential foes. On the marketing side there are several ways to make JNU (Juneau) successful

F9 RNP certification you posted last week intrigues me. I know of four; possibly five airports in the U.S. capable of using the technology which to my understanding there is also a ground component (receivers I think) DCA, SFO, PSP, JNU and maybe RNO (why I don't know) F9 already flies to three of the 4/5 airports and has done so for awhile be it seasonal or daily.

If you are trying to reduce cost it seems to me you wouldn't certify crews without an intent on using it. Although its not as expensive as it was 12-15 years ago at some $800,000.00 per airframe.

Maybe DEN-MSO-RNO. If memory serves me F9 flew to RNO a few years ago which wasn't the greatest. JNU would be the perfect Alaska Trifecta if F9 plays their cards smartly.

[Edited 2013-02-12 07:43:36]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 17267 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 34):
I know of four; possibly five airports in the U.S. capable of using the technology which to my understanding there is also a ground component (receivers I think) DCA, SFO, PSP, JNU and maybe RNO

It appears a several more airports are RNP capable since the last time I looked. Courtesy Honeywell http://www.mygdc.com/attachment/cpsf...AR_Deep_Dive_HON_Ops_Conf_2012.pdf Page 13 of this document show 97 airports in the U.S. and several foreign. On Page 14 TTN is planned for RNP.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinekcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3847 posts, RR: 7
Reply 36, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 17245 times:

So by reacting to Southwest, they have positioned themselves to not have to react to Southwest anymore. Clever.

Quoting mariner (Reply 32):
As to SHD, well - maybe. But the airport guy was right, the loads have been very good.

What does good mean? Numbers please if you have them. I see that route on sale frequently.


Here's what I don't understand about SHD. They run MCO fall-spring. I always see people talking about MCO being a fall-spring destination......

So here's my question.. Is my market some sort of an enigma where the vast majority of people and families vacation in the summer?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 37, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 17239 times:
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Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 36):
So by reacting to Southwest, they have positioned themselves to not have to react to Southwest anymore. Clever.

If you count CAK to CLE and DAY to CVG as a reaction to Southwest then - yes. I guess.

I note that even with the presence of Airtran on DEN-CAK for half the year, Frontier still had very respectable numbers at CAK for 2012

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/akr...ssenger-record-in-2012-2013-01-29:

"Akron-Canton Airport sets all-time passenger record in 2012.....Frontier Airlines grew seven percent with 199,400 passengers;"

But it is (or was) a battle of the low fare airlines and it ceases to be a battle if one side removes itself from the fray. It's a process, it's been going on for some time and it will (hopefully) continue. Both CLE and CVG are a consolidation.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 36):
What does good mean? Numbers please if you have them. I see that route on sale frequently.

It means what the airport guy in SHD said:

http://www.newsleader.com/article/20...-halt-service-April?nclick_check=1

"“The community response has been strong,” said Campbell on Friday morning. “The flights have been doing very well. This morning’s flight was full. Most of the flights seem to be full or very full.”

From what I've seen he was right, but that doesn't address yield (too many low fares?) and that may be problem - the planes may be full only because of the low fares.

All it shows is that the airport can attract the pax - which was an unknown at the start of the season.

But I don't think it is an untoward move. Many of the snowbird routes - Florida and South of the Border - end in April, and so I am hopeful that SHD may come back next winter.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 38, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 17179 times:

http://www.farebuzz.com/blog/post/20...onal-airport-to-orlando-route.aspx

Kate O' Malley states that there was a huge lack of demand on the route.

Airport directors always say demand eas strong. To them, a 75% load factor would be strong. To F9, 75% is aweful.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 39, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 17198 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 38):
Kate O' Malley states that there was a huge lack of demand on the route.

She said a wee bit more than that:

"Kate O’Malley, spokeswomen for Frontier Airlines said that Frontier airline flight between Shenandoah Valley and Orlando will be discontinued during the summer season.

She further said that the airline has not yet decided if they will resume their services again during the winter season."


If there was such a lack of demand, why is there any question abut the return? Drop it - permanently - it now. Frontier isn't usually shy about that.

I don't know - I trust the airline to fly the planes where they can make the most money.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-12 11:06:35]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3847 posts, RR: 7
Reply 40, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 17141 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):
I note that even with the presence of Airtran on DEN-CAK for half the year, Frontier still had very respectable numbers at CAK for 2012

Agreed. Which is why I don't understand how a 2x daily station that was strong for years suddenly isn't as good as 4x weekly to CLE.

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):
It means what the airport guy in SHD said:

http://www.newsleader.com/article/20...-halt-service-April?nclick_check=1

"%u201CThe community response has been strong,%u201D said Campbell on Friday morning. %u201CThe flights have been doing very well. This morning%u2019s flight was full. Most of the flights seem to be full or very full.%u201D

From what I've seen he was right, but that doesn't address yield (too many low fares?) and that may be problem - the planes may be full only because of the low fares.

I'd have to call that lip service. SHD is a great little EAS airport, super facility. He may have thought the first flight was full, which I read had 100ish passengers.

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):
I don't know - I trust the airline to fly the planes where they can make the most money.

Can't say F9 doesn't try.

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):
If there was such a lack of demand, why is there any question abut the return? Drop it - permanently - it now. Frontier isn't usually shy about that.

More lip service. Not wise to tell them they're never coming back while they have a few more months of flights they'd prefer didn't tank.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 41, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 17135 times:
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Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 40):
Agreed. Which is why I don't understand how a 2x daily station that was strong for years suddenly isn't as good as 4x weekly to CLE.

It's a process, a quite complex and really quite sophisticated dance.

It began when Silent Siegel took over a year ago and an essential part of the restructure was fleet discipline - removing quite a large number of aircraft from the fleet and not replacing them until the airline had stabilised. This meant that frequencies had to reduced, which had the bonus of (in several cases) improving yield.

This meant they had to do as much as they could with less and in that process, that year, Siegel has turned the airline around financially.

This ain't "old" money losing Frontier, but there is still some way to go. The airline needs to be making about $50 million a year profit before it starts to generate cash - which is the key to attracting investors.

Now that the airline has stabilised, we are looking at aircraft coming in again, but even that is rigidly disciplined. Originally, the first aircraft coming in was to be an A320, but TTN - A319's - changed that. Last I heard, N954FR was coming in late April or May, but that may have changed, as reported here:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 33):
A used 319 from China just arrived in GYR as a replacement. It's being leased from CIT and has a line number around 1400.

So even my sources may not be up to date. Robert Ashcroft has said that the schedule extension has been delayed by these fleet decisions, but since it will be published this week-end, i guess they've all been resolved.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 40):
I'd have to call that lip service.
Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 40):
More lip service.

Okay, as you will. I like SHD, I love the area, I thought it was a good choice. I'd like to think (hope?) it could make the cut next winter, but if it doesn't, I'm a big boy.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-12 11:54:55]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 17053 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 38):

"said that Frontier airline flights between Shenandoah Valley and Orlando will be discontinued during the summer season".

If you are familiar with the Discover Channel television series Moonshiners. That region of Appalachia is brewing the recipe. There busy across the Summer. They got no time for MCO vacations



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 43, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16858 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 41):

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 40):
I'd have to call that lip service.
Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 40):
More lip service.

Okay, as you will. I like SHD, I love the area, I thought it was a good choice. I'd like to think (hope?) it could make the cut next winter, but if it doesn't, I'm a big boy.

It was telling that when the service started, they had already made the decision to only guarantee service until April while COU never had an end date. To me that means bookings were under-performing for the Winter.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 34):
Maybe DEN-MSO-RNO. If memory serves me F9 flew to RNO a few years ago which wasn't the greatest. JNU would be the perfect Alaska Trifecta if F9 plays their cards smartly.

I'm not sure why you seem fascinated with tag routes. Outside of EAS, it just doesn't make sense domestically like it may have 20 years ago. F9 will determine if MSO is feasible based on MSO alone. Tag routes add so little value, especially to a place like DEN. Someone can easily go RNO-DEN nonstop and for very cheap. MSO-RNO would lose boat loads of money.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16815 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 43):
I'm not sure why you seem fascinated with tag routes


In economics it is generally understood as two for the price of one. Several carriers still think quite highly of tag markets and they do seem to work. Maybe not in a ULCC model. I'm not convinced of that as of yet.

Where brand loyalty enters the equation; the here today gone tomorrow mentality doesn't resonate well with the public. Thus I think the DEN-MDW-TTN route is an attempt to try something different; which I applaud.

I threw RNO out there solely because it was a potential RNP airport and one of the four or five I knew about until I started digging into it a little more based on F9 recent RNP certification.

[Edited 2013-02-12 20:04:24]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 45, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 16761 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 44):
Several carriers still think quite highly of tag markets and they do seem to work.


Where domestically is this the case? In Alaska it might work simply because people don't have a choice.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 44):
Where brand loyalty enters the equation; the here today gone tomorrow mentality doesn't resonate well with the public. Thus I think the DEN-MDW-TTN route is an attempt to try something different; which I applaud.

They'd be stupid to not allow connections in MDW because it's the same airplane. This is the case for two reasons:

1. F9 wants to serve TTN-MDW
2. TTN-DEN physically isn't possible.

F9 learned the hard way with tags like they originally had in the mid 90s up in Montana/North Dakota.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 44):
In economics it is generally understood as two for the price of one.

That works internationally as in say SIN-NRT-EWR, where the cost to serve SIN-EWR nonstop is no longer feasible. However, domestically, everywhere is reachable to another domestic city without needing a tag. Also


User currently offlinekcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3847 posts, RR: 7
Reply 46, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16628 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 42):
If you are familiar with the Discover Channel television series Moonshiners. That region of Appalachia is brewing the recipe. There busy across the Summer. They got no time for MCO vacations

Those guys don't even know what an airplane is.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 44):
In economics it is generally understood as two for the price of one. Several carriers still think quite highly of tag markets and they do seem to work.

I understand your perspective, but when you're talking about flights, there is a cost to intentionally running a tag route. Ground handling has a cost. Adding a landing, ground turn, and takeoff is far less efficient than remaining airborne. I'm sure F9 would prefer to fill every leg of their flights on O&D if possible. WN will run thru flights out of DAL until they don't have to, but they have been cutting out many of the shorter routes that were originally added as stops along the "bus route" so to speak.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 44):
I threw RNO out there solely because it was a potential RNP airport and one of the four or five I knew about until I started digging into it a little more based on F9 recent RNP certification.

RNP isn't a reason to fly somewhere. No navigational aid will generate demand in a market.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16595 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 45):
Where domestically is this the case?

Tag has two meanings in my mind; one stop with no change of aircraft and or one or more flights meet at a micro hub (for lack of a better term) which allows for the transfer of passengers. Dare I say WN runs many tag flights all day every day the last time I checked. BNA-MDW-PVD; and BWI-MDW-OKC-LAS-BOI-PDX for two.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 45):
They'd be stupid to not allow connections in MDW because it's the same airplane

We agree; it's still a tag route. Without looking at F9 schedule and if memory serves me another F9 flight from another city also converges in MDW which allow those pax to connect to the MDW-TTN and or MDW-DEN segment.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 45):
TTN-DEN physically isn't possible.

Has that been determined? I've read several post about TTN 6000' runway and the required fuel (by weight) when combined with pax and weight in the cargo hold(s). Someone mentioned its not a runway vs. airframe weight issue as we think of it. He said he suspects it's more of a FAA restriction in that TTN sits directly below the busiest air corridor (NYC center traffic) almost at the point where north to south and east to west traffic is segregated. I tend to believe he may be onto something because DEN-TTN is doable (by weight) but TTN-DEN is not (supposedly) I think of all the open airspace around DEN (usually) Thus F9 opts for the MDW tag. Not that its a bad; it is economics though and I'll take two cities for the price of one all day every day. Chicago can and I hope will support it.

The arm chair rocket scientist in me doesn't put much weight in the runway length vs. weight issue. Although there are valid concerns I have personally witnessed a U-S-A-F C-5A Galaxy (2nd largest airframe in the world) land and take off out of JNU on several occasions. It used every inch of runway and four engines but she lifted out between mountain ranges at that.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 16531 times:

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 46):
Those guys don't even know what an airplane is.

I saw one episode where one of Appalachia's finest suspected a pilot-less plane or ATF drone flying above his his hooch! I originally thought he may have sampled the recipe one time to many.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5794 posts, RR: 28
Reply 49, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 16524 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 47):
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 45):They'd be stupid to not allow connections in MDW because it's the same airplane
We agree; it's still a tag route.

I think the difference, as you suggest, is that MDW might offer limited connections. It's also "midway" between TTN and DEN, which is another way to say "on the way". Finally, DEN-MDW and TTN-MDW are hub and spoke routes of sorts, like UA flying say ORD-OKC-IAH.

DEN-MSO-RNO would not seem to fit any of those criteria.

I do think JNU-BLI is an interesting, if unlikely, idea, and DEN-JNU is gutsy - what was Mariner calling routes a few years ago that had "pizzaz" or something? Ultimately, though, unless you can get someone in route planning to really sit down and focus on just those optons, I doubt they'd even make the initial cut - there are just so many more places that offer more opportunities, fewer costs, and less chance of AS going postal. IMHO.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinePacificF27 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 16514 times:
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JNO-BLI and beyond does sound interesting, however, I suspect SEA is the destination of choice (necessity?) for Juneau residents. The question is-- How many folks from the lower 48 want to fly to Juneau? Could be a fair number.


EVA is tops across the Pacific!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 51, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16478 times:
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Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 49):
what was Mariner calling routes a few years ago that had "pizzaz" or something?

Pizzaz? LOL.

There are a few. When they first announced DEN-CUN it had pizzaz, it got everyone's attention, and DEN-ANC and DEN-SJO.

DEN-PUJ has it, or the potential for it - pizzaz-iness, as Steven Colbert might say. It would have a lot more if they let a few moths out of the pocket and got an A319 with sharklets to fly it in winter. Or even as a same-plane one-stop through MCO.

I think TTN-MSY has pizzaz - it surely got everyone's attention and any route that attracts such negativity on a.net has to have something going for it.

Mostly, I'd like to see a bit of pizzaz at the airline overall. It's tough to argue with the turnaround to profitability and even tougher to argue with the RJET share price on Wall Street, but the executive is all a bit straight white male.

Nothing against straight white males, I promise, and I think they're doing a grand job - and Kate O'Malley is a start and Amit Agarwal in IT - but I'd love to see a bit of alternative in there, a prominent Hispanic or African-Amercan, or a big ol' gay guy with a Broadway background, just to give it a bit of added sparkle and perhaps to bring some other thinking.

A bit of pizzaz.  

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-13 11:12:08]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 52, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16529 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 49):
It's also "midway" between TTN and DEN, which is another way to say "on the way".

And potentially on the Fort Dodge, Iowa route. There seems to be a flight deck routing fetish for that routing which makes it a favorite east to west and west to east route request. Thank you UA channel 9

Quoting PacificF27 (Reply 50):
How many folks from the lower 48 want to fly to Juneau? Could be a fair number.

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/airport...%20International&carrier=FACTS According to what I'm seeing/understanding for the reporting period November 2011 through October 2012 133,000.00 departing pax between JNU-SEA and 74,000.00 between JNU-ANC with AS being the sole large jet carrier. Because this is airport specific data I might subtract the 9% for the puddle jumper service to some of the smaller communities seen in the graphic. Three is another 40k or to some of the communities including KTN (Ketchikan) and Sitka. Gustavus is Glacier Bay National Park.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 49):
DEN-MSO-RNO would not seem to fit any of those criteria.

It was merely a thought in my mind. I'm certainly not going to fall over if RNO doesn't happen. The F9 fan club is lead to believe the next round of 2013 new routes announcements will occur at airports out west. Both RNO and MSO fit the bill as does JNU. Add to that the RNP certification.

My bubble did deflate some yesterday when I saw 97 potential airports which are RNP ready. Ironically DEN did not appear on the list thus reading between the lines; F9 will be using it somewhere. With that said I do not how old the Honeywell document was.

[Edited 2013-02-13 11:03:04]

[Edited 2013-02-13 11:06:59]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 53, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 16311 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 49):
I do think JNU-BLI is an interesting, if unlikely, idea, and DEN-JNU is gutsy Ultimately, though, unless you can get someone in route planning to really sit down and focus on just those optons, I doubt they'd even make the initial cut - there are just so many more places that offer more opportunities, fewer costs, and less chance of AS going postal. IMHO.

If you're worried about an AS response, then BLI-JNU would elicit one much quicker than DEN-JNU. How did AS respond when F9 started DEN-ANC/FAI? To my knowledge, they didn't. BLI could be considered an alternative to SEA and AS most likely would respond to that. If AS dropped their prices it'd wipe out any chance for success for F9. Also given the current routing for DEN-BLI, tagging on JNU would be very time inefficient where as DEN-JNU would be a red-eye east bound at least.

As for demand, I'm not sure, but JNU-DEN would allow one-stop connections to many places. A JNU-BLI-DEN routing would be double connect for most people and at that point you're no worse off flying XXX-SEA-JNU on AS. I just think it'd be a safe route from both UA and definitely WN.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5794 posts, RR: 28
Reply 54, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16298 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 53):
How did AS respond when F9 started DEN-ANC/FAI? To my knowledge, they didn't.

I believe that when F9 announced DEN-ANC, AS then announced it as well. It's been around ever since from what I can tell.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 55, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16300 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 54):
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 53):
How did AS respond when F9 started DEN-ANC/FAI? To my knowledge, they didn't.

I believe that when F9 announced DEN-ANC, AS then announced it as well. It's been around ever since from what I can tell.

Sorry memory lapse there. ANC is also a hub for AS though. FAI isn't, and there was no reaction to DEN-FAI. You could be right in that they may react to DEN-JNU though.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 56, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16216 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 53):
If you're worried about an AS response, then BLI-JNU would elicit one much quicker than DEN-JNU.

I'm not so sure about that If it were PAE or BFI-JNU I might agree. In a ULCC model F9 in my mind could sell the JNU-BLI roudtrip fare for $400.00 round trip and sustain it easily. AS super-saver fares JNU-SEA are in the $600.00 - $700.00 range. They may go below $500 in a fare sale which happens infrequently from southeast Alaska. More often than not in the fare sale arena the Eskimo snubs his nose at southeast Alaska when compare to AS AS lower forty eight markets which are on sale often.

There is no doubt in my mind AS would match F9 prices. But does that really matter? Not if F9 determines the price point which will work for them and sustain it. I know I've wrote this a time or two; F9 has the critter tails to their advantage.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 54):
I believe that when F9 announced DEN-ANC, AS then announced it as well

Yes they did; within two days as I recall. AS had not flown to DEN prior to that. Although we were under the impression DEN was on AS radar. F9 announcement expedited their decision.

The reason I keep harping on JNU-BLI-DEN or JNU-BLI connecting to the DEN-BLI service is unless you want to go to DEN (how may do) Thereafter DEN is only viable to Alaskans as a hub connecting to the east, south and two a certain extent north. Alaska has quite a few oil people in North Dakota. I certainly would not fly to DEN to go west. LAX, SFO etc. when I could fly directly down the left coast (ala gold-coast). The BLI option keeps you within 95 miles of SEA and in the Pacific Northwest which is the majority of AS customer base. Seasonal less than daily BLI service on Thursday-Friday-Saturday would allow pax to take advantage in both directions of the Alaska Marine Highway main terminal. if they so chose too. I don't think it's that far fetched. F9 appear to be willing to test tag routes out and one size certainly does not fit all.

As strange as it may sound I also believe a market from the Pacific Northwest to North Dakota currently exist. DEN is on the warning track. QX to my knowledge does not offer service to North Dakota from anywhere. SEA and PDX to western Montana is about it.

[Edited 2013-02-14 08:11:23]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16197 times:

I've found what could be another niche market for F9; larger than SHD and closer to COU which according to what I'm reading offers considerably more FRH (French Lick, Indiana) http://frenchlickwestbaden.org/

Their URL reads it's 2.5 driving hours from CVG, 105 miles from Terre Haute; 68 miles from Louisville. This facility appears to combine some of the ambiance of Dollywood, Williamsburg, VA.; Hershey PA.and to a certain extent Branson, MO. One of my all time favorite bands 38 Special is playing the venue on March 15. It looks like Winter to Spring-Summer conversion happens in in early April.

It appears to be a year around facility offering a winter venue including a Polar Express train ride, cross country skiing indoor water park The seasonal adjustment offers golf, music venues, a zip-line,hot air balloon rides, horseback riding, floating cabins horseback riding. Fine and casual dining and wine lake cruises.

FRH has a 5,550 foot runway http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KFRH Their newly constructed terminal appears larger than TTN http://www.frenchlickairport.com/

The key question is from where? TTN perhaps.

Maybe our SBN and Notre Dame fan can chime in if he's familiar with this venue.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently onlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 15977 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 57):

Of course and they could call it "Princeton/French Lick, IN"  
(Princeton, IN is nearby)



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2101 posts, RR: 3
Reply 59, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 15956 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 26):
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 12):COS failed simply because airfares from DEN are so cheap, and significantly more destinations and frequencies are offered from there as well. The COS experiment was WestPac 2.0.No, WestPac 1.0 was a longer experiment. And it caved due to competition from and lure of... Frontier. I still maintain it might have persisted if it hadn't have gone bonkers with expansion. WestPac, that is.


To discuss catchment area, we should look a little closer. Very few people I know in DEN ever use Colorado Springs airport. People in this forum who don't know the area assume they're like "twin cities," one city next to the other one. They're not. There's a considerable distance between the two. And to make matters worse, the airport in Colorado Springs is on the opposite end of the city (southeast side), which makes it even more out of the way for people in Denver. So if you drive from DEN to COS airport, you have to pass all the way through the city of Colorado Springs to reach COS. So from my observation very few even from the southern suburbs of Denver really consider COS a viable alternative. There would have to be serious savings to make the drive to COS to catch a plane. I do have a friend who like driving from DEN to COS to take a flight, but he likes the drive so there are some exceptions, but generally NO. Actually both airports are kind of out in the sticks, but on opposite sides of their respective cities.

The airlines know people are not going to drive to COS to catch flights, unless the tickets are priced unprofiably low.

COS is a nice, quaint, user friendly airport, but it can't support a lot of service, because it's too far from most of the people.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 15798 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
Delta has responded, it has matched fares
Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
But - so far - that's it and I think Frontier can live with that sort of response and should have been expecting at least that.

I'm not sure how to read this. Possibly some additional retaliation by DL against F9 for CVG. DL is adding seasonal Saturday non-stop service from ATL-MSO using a 738. DL is also expanding seasonal ATL BZN to three flights weekly using 752 and 738 aircraft and is expanding ATL to FCA (Kalispell, Montana) to two flights weekly using 738.

Although this is not market to market retaliation we are to believe DEN-MSO is fairly high on F9 city list. DL already flies MSP-MSO and UA flies MSP-DEN-MSO



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 61, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 15798 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 60):
I'm not sure how to read this. Possibly some additional retaliation by DL against F9 for CVG.

i wouldn't read any more into it that what it is - Delta sorting out its summer schedule. MSO is only a Saturday flight, and retaliation is when Delta goes nuclear, as happened with Frontier's MCI-MSP when Delta launched five routes from MCI.

Frontier doesn't serve MSO - yet - and may not so I assume Delta thinks it is a route on which it can make money. Nor do I think BZN is retaliation, just Delta looking out for Delta and ATL is a completely different market.

IF Frontier starts start MSO - and it is still "if" - then I don't think it will be as retaliation against Delta. But supposedly the schedule extension happens this week-end and nothing has been announced except GSO.

So I guess there's always the possibility that GSO may be it.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-15 14:48:30]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 62, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15706 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 59):
To discuss catchment area, we should look a little closer. Very few people I know in DEN ever use Colorado Springs airport. People in this forum who don't know the area assume they're like "twin cities," one city next to the other one. They're not. There's a considerable distance between the two. And to make matters worse, the airport in Colorado Springs is on the opposite end of the city (southeast side), which makes it even more out of the way for people in Denver. So if you drive from DEN to COS airport, you have to pass all the way through the city of Colorado Springs to reach COS. So from my observation very few even from the southern suburbs of Denver really consider COS a viable alternative. There would have to be serious savings to make the drive to COS to catch a plane. I do have a friend who like driving from DEN to COS to take a flight, but he likes the drive so there are some exceptions, but generally NO. Actually both airports are kind of out in the sticks, but on opposite sides of their respective cities.

True, now. And they're not twin cities, but for airports, obviously DEN is just as good as COS for the Coloradospringers, so de facto twin for them. In the days of WP, people from south Denver and adjacent suburbs were using COS. At the time, there was no low fare carrier of substance in DEN, I don't think early F9 had the same reach. At any rate, I was not thinking Denver proper, more like Douglas County, the southern end of the Denver Metro. COS counts it as part of their catchment at any rate. COS is 51 miles from Castle Rock, 46 miles to DIA from Castle Rock, for example. Considering the parking time and negotiating the terminal, advantage goes to COS... if airfares were identical. But, as Mariner said in the other thread, my friends in Colorado Springs won't pay a dime extra to fly COS. They are kind of obstinate that way.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15530 times:

I suppose I'm reading between the lines. I'm curious what "Beyond Bellingham" might mean.

http://www.flyfrontier.com/Home/spec...cals/denver-bellingham-intro-fares

I realize the intent is to market the resumption of the DEN-BLI-DEN service. Unless F9 is referring to BLI as a rail, asphalt or sea gateway to Canada, Alaska or as a staycation in the Pacific Northwest. As an air carrier Beyond Bellingham is certainly a play on words and may be a stretch.

[Edited 2013-02-16 07:24:36]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 17
Reply 64, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15497 times:

Gent - I believe the Beyond is simple marketing since F9 markets BLI as Bellingham/Vancouver. It is so much cheaper to fly into BLI and drive across the border to Vancouver. UA and AS are averaging $650 or more from DEN to YVR. You can purchase a ticket on F9 for $268, half the price of flying directly into YVR.


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineuncgso From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15323 times:

hey all ... first off i will assume GSO-MCO has worked as well as planned or DEN would not have been announced ... considering this, and if GSO-DEN does well, what do you guys think the odds are of maybe more F9 service in GSO? maybe FLL, TPA, TTN? or some Mexico flying? just wondering ... and still scratching my head at TTN-RDU ... imho think F9 should have just concentrated on GSO ... think this airport (Greensboro/High Point/Winston-Salem) is one of the most overlooked/underserved in the country ... and I am pleased & proud that F9 is showing some interest ...

btw have booked GSO-DEN-PHX in June ... and am looking forward to it ...

regards


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 66, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15243 times:

I'd like to just say that I probably overreacted some last week when talking about the pending outsourcing. For the vast majority of my career, I've been an outstation employee. Spent some time in the hub, but generally, outstation only, so that's the perspective I have mostly. A few months ago I left F9 in ATL to move back to New Orleans. I wasn't planning on it, as I really was enjoying my time back with Frontier. In some ways, it felt like I never had left. But life had other plans for me, and when my marriage went kaput, so did my job with Frontier (had no choice in the matter based on the wage I was making). So now I'm back in New Orleans, quite happy and doing well with a major, non-aviation related transportation company, and yet you better believe I always keep an eye out on what F9 is doing, where they are going, etc. So when I saw the outsourcing announcement, it hit home with me, most likely just because I was thinking about some of my former colleagues in ATL who genuinely took pride in their jobs and their company. As a friend recently told me, it's simply not the same company compared to when we started. Change can be hard, and it is certainly the only constant in life. An old management professor told me once that "you can't take your heart into business decisions"...something to that affect. It's easy to buy into a statement like that when you're just sitting in class, and not out there in the real world. But of course he's right. And while I have never really liked Dave Siegel going back to his US days...and certainly I have more negative opinions on BB than I do positive...I hope they can keep the ship afloat, for the sake of all the good folks in Denver.

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 67, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 15161 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 66):

Very well said!

At the end of the day F9 is just another "Thing with Wings" I think many of us who have hung around here across the years generally favor the underdog. I think back to the late 90's when somebody on the Yahoo airlines boards wrote F9 was 'The Little Engine That Could" A lot has changed since then, some to the better and some to the worse.

I think the ULCC designation changed more than most of us expected or anticipated. It is said you can't be everything to everybody and F9 is trying to survive in a fierce world.

If you can spare a couple of dollars or have access to a public library I encourage you to read Donald T. Phillips book "Lincoln on Leadership" It would even be more appropriate this Presidents Day weekend. The book fills in some of the voids the movie omitted.

Bravo Zulu.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 68, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 14905 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 61):
So I guess there's always the possibility that GSO may be it.

Or not, as the case may be. New summer service to EUG and FAT - both 3 x weekly.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...nstop-denver-eugene-170000446.html

"Frontier Announces Nonstop Service From Denver to Eugene and Fresno"

EUG is announced as seasonal, but FAT seems to be year round. That'll be interesting.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-18 10:19:29]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 69, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 14838 times:

MCO-COU/GSO/OMA end in early May now. Not sure if those are seasonal cuts or permanently cut

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 70, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 14838 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 69):
MCO-COU/GSO/OMA end in early May now. Not sure if those are seasonal cuts or permanently cut

I don't think anyone is sure, except maybe at Frontier.

The most interesting change, to me, is the addition of a frequency DEN-CVG. It was announced as 6 x weekly, but is now 7 x weekly - but not daily. 2 x CVG-DEN on Sunday from about mid June.

MDT gains a frequency and PHF is restored to 4 x.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14779 times:

I wasn't to too far off with my RDM guess.

The DEN-EUG service will compete with Sky-west DEN-EUG service offered on a CR7. Surprisingly EUG receives quite a bit of service from SEA, PDX, LAX, DEN, SLC, SFO, OAK, and to/from AZA/IWA on G4. QX seems to be the dominant carrier.

FAT is a redo if memory serves me. F9 must see something there to return. FAT It is the closest airport serving Yosemite N.P if memory serves me.

[Edited 2013-02-18 11:53:37]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 72, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14713 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 71):

FAT is a redo if memory serves me.

FAT is indeed a redo, and interesting because of that.

It lasted for a couple of years or less and the problem was not summer, when it did fine but - winter. So I am intrigued that they're bringing it back as year round but hoping that the less than daily frequency (3 x weekly) helps solve the winter problem.

Part of the attraction, I guess, is that it is a DEN route but no Southwest, but I wonder if there are other redo's that could work - even with Southwest - with limited service. DEN-RNO a couple of times a week, maybe?

But of the western routes, mostly I'm hoping for DEN-STS - once they've sorted the runway out.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 14643 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 72):
I'm hoping for DEN-STS

STS seems like it would be a niche airport. I think back to the time I spent in Petaluma flying in an out of OAK and SFO. I suppose Napa Valley would welcome STS also. I'd love to fly the inaugural flight. But which vino would F9 serve?

Doesn't NAPA have its own airport?

With some bias I also like CKV. CKV/Outlaw-Field-Airport" target="_blank">http://skyvector.com/airport/CKV/Outlaw-Field-Airport Back in the day OO offered service there. I believe it involves Part 139 re-certification. They recently constructed a new terminal. CKV is adjacent to either the Army's third or fourth largest Army post and in the top ten DOD wide. I think CKV-MCO would work although the greater Dallas area appears to be the number one preferred route seen in a recent poll.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 74, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14552 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 73):
Back in the day OO offered service there

Correction Ozark offered service whose IATA code was OZ.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1751 posts, RR: 12
Reply 75, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14513 times:
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Seriously, at what point does the heat start focusing on Daniel Shurz and his planning group on Tower Road. These route selections are becoming a wild goose chase and his/their success rate doesn't seem to good on the surface. Maybe BB ought to invest in some bigger bucks and bring in some more experienced route planners.

User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 76, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14509 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 73):
With some bias I also like CKV. CKV/Outlaw-Field-Airport" target="_blank">http://skyvector.com/airport/CKV/Outlaw-Field-Airport Back in the day OO offered service there. I believe it involves Part 139 re-certification. They recently constructed a new terminal. CKV is adjacent to either the Army's third or fourth largest Army post and in the top ten DOD wide. I think CKV-MCO would work although the greater Dallas area appears to be the number one preferred route seen in a recent poll.

I wouldn't get your hopes up for any more point-to-point routes to MCO. Especially not from from small airports. SHD didn't pan out, and now this:

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/a/...lights-to-orlando-will-end-in-may/

Kate O'Malley said "Bookings did not meet expectations. Frontier has no future plans for flights from Columbia."

So by May, MCO will be down to just BMI, MDT, TTN, and DEN. ABE, OMA, MSN, SHD, COU, and TYS have all failed. It sounds like they tried to emulate G4 a little bit charging about the same ticket prices as they did. However without additional revenue from fees or packages in the MCO area, most of these routes struggled. Yet another waste of an airplane they should've just kept in DEN.

Quoting mariner (Reply 68):
Or not, as the case may be. New summer service to EUG and FAT - both 3 x weekly.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...nstop-denver-eugene-170000446.html

"Frontier Announces Nonstop Service From Denver to Eugene and Fresno"

EUG is announced as seasonal, but FAT seems to be year round. That'll be interesting.

I liked these adds. Recently they have been adding cities east of DEN while cutting places in the west. I wonder if this means that MSO didn't make the final cut.

DEN-FAT at 3 times a week may work. Last time around they tried it as twice daily, and UA crushed them.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 77, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14508 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 76):
So by May, MCO will be down to just BMI, MDT, TTN, and DEN.

For the summer, yes. But are OMA and MSN permanently dropped?

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 76):
DEN-FAT at 3 times a week may work. Last time around they tried it as twice daily, and UA crushed them.

Winter really crushed them. They did okay in summer.

Apart from the newly announced cities (FAT, GSO and EUG - so far?) there are the returns - ANC, BLI, FAI, JAC, TYS - and there are also some frequency adds:

PHF, FAR, MDT (4 x weekly) JAC (9 x weekly) SNA (4 x daily) PDX and SEA both at 5 x daily. And that very interesting additional CVG frequency.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 78, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 14320 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 76):
Especially not from from small airports.

I'm not sure I would call CKV small. The population is north of 133,000 using the 2010 census data. It isn't NYC but it isn't SHD or COU either.

CKV is located 55 miles NNW from BNA and the home of the Army's 101st Airborne Division with a troop level in the neighborhood of thirty two thousand composed of four Brigade Combat Teams an additional U-S-A-F contingent at HOP with additional 10-15K in family compliment. Additionally there is a military retirement community estimated to be another 35K.

Its a bit dated but here is a list of the ten largest DOD bases.http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_10_largest_military_bases_in_the_US As it relates to Butt-In-Seats you have to segregate troop strength by land area. White Sands in NM and Twenty Nine Palms in SoCal have large land areas but not the people strength.

F9 needs to find a way to market Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst near TTN. http://www.jointbasemdl.af.mil/newcomerswelcome.asp All five branches of the Armed Services are represented. Word of mouth spreads quickly.

Its going to fun to watch what federal GSA city pairs F9 goes after from TTN. MDW, and possibly CMH.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 79, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 14246 times:
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The issue which has been much discussed here - COS following a line of other focus cities - has made it to the general media:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...nd-a-route-map-that-works/1928881/

"Frontier struggles to find a route map that works"

It is a problem - and not perhaps just of perception - because the article finally focusses on Frontier being squeezed between the two giants at DEN - Southwest and United.

It doesn't matter how much rationality one applies to it - that Frontier is profitable in spite of being squeezed between the two giants - that perception remains.

It will apply to TTN, too. Inevitably, there are going to be seasonal changes there, they've already started, and again, it doesn't matter how much rationality one applies to it, the perception will rule.

Given the RJET stock price - it is up yet again today to $9.75 from (about) $5.60 at the beginning of the year - I don't think it matters to the money people.

And given the very high load factors I don't know how important it is to the travelling public, but it reinforces the idea of Frontier as "losing" in the minds of airline folk.

Announced profits might change it, but I don't know that for sure. The idea of Frontier being squeezed at DEN - especially by Southwest - has had such currency and for such a long time, I'm not sure if it will change, except by continued and consistent profitability for at least a couple of years.

A conundrum. How much does perception matter because on other levels, Frontier appears to be ticking the boxes.

In fleet news, for example, I'm told N954FR is "in country" (early - at GYR as was posted by somemone else) and dickie birds are chirping about another arrival, slightly later in the year.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7720 posts, RR: 15
Reply 80, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 14224 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 79):
It doesn't matter how much rationality one applies to it - that Frontier is profitable in spite of being squeezed between the two giants - that perception remains.

I guess if you can keep profitability while shrinking 25% per year and continuously laying off employees then that's some kind of accomplishment.

Quoting mariner (Reply 79):
A conundrum. How much does perception matter because on other levels, Frontier appears to be ticking the boxes.

Except being sustainable. Shrinking 25% per year is not sustainable. If they are so profitable why are they shrinking and firing all their outstation employees? Doesn't make much sense does it? Even if you ignore the regionals, even mainline is shrinking 16% YOY according to their own data.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 81, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14213 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 80):
I guess if you can keep profitability while shrinking 25% per year and continuously laying off employees then that's some kind of accomplishment.

Given where they were - I think so.

Quoting enilria (Reply 80):
Except being sustainable. Shrinking 25% per year is not sustainable.

Indeed, that's quite right. That's why I added the fleet news.

The restructure is an ongoing process, it isn't over yet. But they are now starting to look at growth again.

Quoting enilria (Reply 80):
If they are so profitable why are they shrinking and firing all their outstation employees?

Because it is not about the present profitability - they're moving on to the next step. It is about ROI - Return on Investment (return on invested capital - which is what any investor will be looking at. Some will be happy with 12% ROI, some will want 18%. Southwest Airlines is aiming for 15%).

The outsourcing is part of it. Southwest can - and does - outsource at any station with less than 12 daily departures. No Frontier outstation has even half that number of departures.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-19 12:01:04]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1751 posts, RR: 12
Reply 82, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14009 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 81):
Quoting enilria (Reply 80):
Except being sustainable. Shrinking 25% per year is not sustainable.

Indeed, that's quite right. That's why I added the fleet news.

History is pretty clear on companies that try to shrink to profitability. Heck look at Frontier's predecessor, it tried to shrink & retreat at Stapleton against UA and CO; that version of Frontier doesn't exist.

Quoting mariner (Reply 79):
http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...nd-a-route-map-that-works/1928881/

"Frontier struggles to find a route map that works"

While not much original reporting (mostly culled from the Denver Post), the article touches on what I mentioned earlier - these constant route adds and drops has me wondering when the powers-that-be start to look inward at the problem. Frontier's planning department, or whatever it's called, would be sent to the minor leagues if it were a major league pitcher.

After reading the Columbia Missourian article on the sudden drop of COU, it only affirms my stance. A month ago F9 adds a frequency to the route, only to drop the city altogether weeks later? Same thing in COS. Are they that desperate to find routes? Heck I'd like to see enilria come up with some better markets.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 83, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13984 times:
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Quoting n7371f (Reply 82):
History is pretty clear on companies that try to shrink to profitability. Heck look at Frontier's predecessor, it tried to shrink & retreat at Stapleton against UA and CO; that version of Frontier doesn't exist.

I can only point you to the published numbers.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-19 18:56:50]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13941 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 60):
Possibly some additional retaliation by DL against F9 for CVG. DL is adding seasonal Saturday non-stop service from ATL-MSO using a 738.

I see ATL-MSO as simply an extension of the ATL-BZN service DL has operated for a number of years. Presumably the BZN service has been successful, thus I suspect DL is simply giving MSO a try.


User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 888 posts, RR: 1
Reply 85, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13918 times:
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Frontier needs to spend money on advertising in its new markets. It's like they do not want to give markets time to develop. While I was in my original hometown I only noticed two F9 billboards left. It also took F9 about 3 months to put its famous talking animals on the local television stations. Heck I don't even have a marketing degree and I could do a better job selling the airline. I took several of their jet's animal tails and with a little imagination and the help of Paint Shop made sample local ads. I gave my hometown airport a copy of one of them using Sarge the bald eagle.

User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3156 posts, RR: 6
Reply 86, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13859 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 82):
History is pretty clear on companies that try to shrink to profitability. Heck look at Frontier's predecessor, it tried to shrink & retreat at Stapleton against UA and CO; that version of Frontier doesn't exist.

OK, but so did UA and CO retreat at DEN. CO completely pulled their hub. Went through a couple bankrupties, lived on to merge with UA. UA has shrunk recently at DEN, gone through a bankrupcy, and lives on. There are many of examples of shrinking then rebirth to profitability in the airline industry. And Denver is not unique in hosting those airlines.

-Rampart


User currently offlineIllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13859 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 79):

"Frontier struggles to find a route map that works"

Maybe TTN will be their saving grace, but with the track record of F9, highly unlikely. I foresee an inevitable merger with B6 or NK given that their business models and fleets are quite similar.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5794 posts, RR: 28
Reply 88, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13817 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 82):
History is pretty clear on companies that try to shrink to profitability.

History is pretty clear on companies that don't adapt. Do you prefer they go on a diet or go to their Alamo?

Years ago Conrail (railroad) was oversized and overstaffed. They had to do some serious shrinking. Their CEO at the time stated, though, that "Conrail cannot be abandoned into prosperity". Very true. However, judicious pruning and right-sizing of their network yielded great results, and they went on to being bought out for $10 Billion dollars. Not bad for a once-bankrupt managerie of railroads.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 82):
Frontier's planning department, or whatever it's called, would be sent to the minor leagues if it were a major league pitcher.

In your opinion. Two of the carriers with the best margins right now are Allegiant and Spirit. Ironically, they are also two of the carriers doing the ULCC thing and adding and pulling cities, routes, and frequencies at will. Would you send them to the minor leagues, too?

Let's see.

G4 - Adding/pulling routes/cities/frequencies. ULCC. Making good money.
NK - Adding/pulling routes/cities/frequencies. ULCC. Making good money.
F9 - Adding/pulling routes/cities/frequencies. ULCC. Making good money.

You can argue the track record of course, and you can argue the consistency of profits, but clearly your perception of what makes sense for every situation is flawed, imvho.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 85):
Heck I don't even have a marketing degree and I could do a better job selling the airline.

For free? Because if not, then you just found the problem.

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 87):
I foresee an inevitable merger with B6 or NK given that their business models and fleets are quite similar.

B6 and NK aren't even the same. How can you say that F9 is the same as both? They certainly are not the same as B6, unless flying A320's makes you somehow kindred spirits. As for NK, I don't see any reason that it "couldn't" happen, but the question I have is why? If F9 is going to fail, save yourself some money and let them. If they aren't, I don't see what NK needs from them that they can't grow organically.

I'd actually give more credence to a G4 acquisition, but it really is irrelevent so I'll just leave it at that.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 89, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13816 times:
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The published numbers:

In Q1 2012, the quarter that Siegel started, Frontier lost $21 million:

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/ne...by-frontier-airlines.html?page=all

"Better showing by Frontier Airlines helps Republic trim Q1 loss

For the quarter, Frontier posted a $21.6 million pre-tax loss, down from a $39 million pre-tax loss in the quarter last year."


For Q2 2012, we had this:

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/ne...ines-gives-a-lift-to.html?page=all

"Frontier Airlines gives a lift to owner Republic's profit

The airline posted pre-tax income of $14.1 million in second quarter 2012, compared to a $32.6 million pre-tax loss for the quarter in 2011."


Still, because of the Q1 loss Frontier was still $7 million in the hole. Then came Q3 2012:

http://www.farebuzz.com/frontier-air...-q3-2012-results.aspx#.USRfC6Uii-9

"Frontier Airlines reports strong Q3 2012 results

The airline in a statement said that it posted pre-tax revenue earnings of $29.8 million for Q3 2012, a significant increase from a pre-tax loss of $1.5 million for the same period in 2011."


Taking out the $7 million loss from Q1/Q2 makes for a profit of $23 million.

Q4 2012 isn't reported until next week, but on December 31 2012 Republic revised the Frontier guidance for Q4:

http://www.jagsreport.com/2013/01/re...g-reaffirmed-by-dahlman-rose-rjet/

"As a result of higher revenues and lower costs, Frontier generated a profit margin of 2% to 3% in the quarter. The Republic Airways subsidiary is expected to report a pretax profit of $20 MM to $25MM, up from prior 4Q12 guidance of $15 MM to $20MM."

Use the lowest end of the original guidance ($15 million profit) if you like, if you think they're telling fibs. It don't make no never mind.

Because if they are telling fibs, they'll pay one heck of a price for it on Wall Street.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-19 22:18:59]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineantoniemey From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 1607 posts, RR: 4
Reply 90, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 13737 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 82):
Heck look at Frontier's predecessor, it tried to shrink & retreat at Stapleton against UA and CO; that version of Frontier doesn't exist.

They were losing money battling it out for market share... They tried a different tactic, it didn't work, another airline bought them out... then that airline got bought out and merged into CO. It happens. The idea that shrinking can never return a company to profitability or sustainability is as flawed as the idea that expansion will always bring more profit. There are many factors involved and there are cases where reducing operations can help, especially if it's just the first step in a larger plan.


As a sidebar, I in no way wish for this to happen, but it would be somewhat ironic if Frontier 2.0 eventually ended up being bought out by UA.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1751 posts, RR: 12
Reply 91, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13732 times:
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Nice press for Frontier in the hometown paper this morning.

http://www.denverpost.com/business/c...tomers-orlando-flight-cancellation


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 13696 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 82):
History is pretty clear on companies that try to shrink to profitability.
Quoting n7371f (Reply 75):
Seriously, at what point does the heat start focusing on Daniel Shurz and his planning group on Tower Road. These route selections are becoming a wild goose chase and his/their success rate doesn't seem to good on the surface. Maybe BB ought to invest in some bigger bucks and bring in some more experienced route planners.

How ironic that as F9 started shrinking, and then having all of these route changes left and right...... they start reporting quarterly profits........

Duh......?


 


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13630 times:

Quoting mcg (Reply 84):
I suspect DL is simply giving MSO a try.
Quoting mcg (Reply 84):
I see ATL-MSO as simply an extension of the ATL-BZN service

Yes, and MSO must be working because DL already flies MSP-MSO.

Quoting mariner (Reply 79):
Frontier struggles to find a route map that works"

And yet we continue to see quarter over quarter and year over year profits at AS. ANC seems to be doing well for F9 but for some reason it has not gone full time. (a missed opportunity) I assume FAI is holding its own or it wouldn't have came back this year.

In the last few months B6 announced SEA-ANC; DL announced ATL-ANC and VX announced SFO-ANC. Albeit be is seasonal. F9 balance sheet tells them Alaska is doing well and worth its weight in gold (literally) Although less attentive AS sees some value in PDX-FAI. Yet F9 continues to ignore JNU which is a land locked under served money maker with 300,000 YoY enplanements with one other air large jet air carrier which would give it the perfect trifecta. ULCC as of lately seems to be all about small markets. I don't get it!

I suppose ignorance is bliss which reminds me of a question I was asked in Washington D.C. some fifteen years ago about the time F9 II came into existence Is there any grass in Alaska (yes both kinds) or is it all ice!

[Edited 2013-02-20 08:04:19]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 94, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13576 times:

F9 Winter weather travel advisory for several airports in the nations heartland http://media.flyfrontier.com/article....cfm?article_id=5436&view_id=1290&

[Edited 2013-02-20 09:42:34]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 95, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13573 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 92):
How ironic that as F9 started shrinking, and then having all of these route changes left and right...... they start reporting quarterly profits........

Duh......?

Siegel is correcting oen of the biggest mistakes Frontier made - back before Southwest ever came to DEN.

When oil first hit $30 a barrel (I kid you not) Frontier was one of the first airlines to warn of the nasty effects of fuel at that price.

Oil continued to go up and Frontier continued to take shiny new Airbus aircraft - and kept continuing to take 'em. They had to fly 'em somewhere so certain choices were made which they might not have made if they didn't have all these aircraft sitting around - which meant that when Southwest came along, Frontier was financially vulnerable.

It was growth before profit.

By imposing a rigid and quite ruthless fleet discipline, by paring Frontier back to the core, BB and Siegel have reversed that. Now they are looking at growth again, but it will be quite cautious growth.

Profit before growth.

They still have to deal with the eventual departure of the E190 - and the sooner they go, the better - and I know of two definite incoming aircraft. I believe they may be negotiating for others, but we may learn more on the CC.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-20 09:46:53]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13458 times:

DEN-BLI is returning on May 17th, and this season for now will have 4 weekly flights. Maybe at some point, BLI will be more than seasonal, and possibly daily.

http://bbjtoday.com/blog/frontier-ai...-for-bellingham-denver-route/21505

Also, just as a curious note here, but maybe more of a pain-in-the-*ss for F9 (as well as the other carriers), but good for air pax, DEN is now in the Top 10 (ranked at number 10) of NK's airports in terms of seat offerings per week. DEN now has 16,452 weekly seats available from NK.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...al-performance-remains-solid-98403

 

[Edited 2013-02-20 11:57:16]

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 97, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13400 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 96):

Here is F9 press release http://media.flyfrontier.com/article....cfm?article_id=5437&view_id=1290&

Additionally, Frontier will be resuming seasonal service from its Denver hub to:

Anchorage, AK (ANC) – daily service
Bellingham / Vancouver area, WA (BLI) – four flights weekly
Fairbanks, AK (FAI) – four flights weekly
Great Falls, MT (GTF) – four flights weekly
Jackson Hole, WY (JAC) – daily service with a second flight on Wednesdays and Saturdays
Knoxville, TN (TYS) – three flights weekly

Additionally, for the peak summer travel season, Frontier is adding frequency in popular leisure and business travel markets from Denver, including:

Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX (DFW) – additional roundtrip for up to five daily flights
Orange County/Santa Ana, CA (SNA) – additional roundtrip for up to four daily flights
Portland, OR (SNA) – additional roundtrip for up to five daily flights
San Francisco, CA (SFO) – additional roundtrip for up to five daily flights

The last time I checked Portland, OR IATA code was PDX not SNA. A typo carry over from the previous city sentence.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5127 posts, RR: 28
Reply 98, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13415 times:

The latest interesting news just came via a dickie bird. Frontier Customer Service and Ramp are showing interest in organizing a union. This does not shock me. Obviously a response to outsourcing.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 99, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 13346 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 96):
DEN-BLI is returning on May 17th, and this season for now will have 4 weekly flights. Maybe at some point, BLI will be more than seasonal, and possibly daily.

If I'm reading it correctly it looks like F9 is flying two daily flights on those four days for a total of eight weekly round trips

I'm happy to see the F9 route planners have planned the flight schedule around the Alaska Marine Highway ferry departure and arrivals to/from the Port of Bellingham on Friday's and Saturday's. Its spot on http://www.dot.state.ak.us/amhs/doc/schedules/Summer13/SEbw_S13.pdf



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9518 posts, RR: 26
Reply 100, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 13342 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 97):

You left out the best part of the press release.

"On a separate note, as part of the schedule extension Frontier will increase its fee for a third checked bag from $50 to $75 for all tickets sold Feb. 17, 2003 and after for travel July 11, 2013 and beyond."


On another note, 'The Consumerist' slammed Frontier today for the cancellation of Orlando to Columbia.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 13319 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 100):

Was the baggage increase in the F9 press release I honestly didn't see it. I was more tuned in on the flying side of things.

I'm also disappointed with the COU-MCO cancellation. COU looked like a quaint airport in the heartland.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 102, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 13406 times:
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Quoting F9animal (Reply 98):
The latest interesting news just came via a dickie bird. Frontier Customer Service and Ramp are showing interest in organizing a union. This does not shock me. Obviously a response to outsourcing.

As an old union man, I can only applaud the move. But it's a wee bitty late in the day, perhaps.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 100):
On another note, 'The Consumerist' slammed Frontier today for the cancellation of Orlando to Columbia.

It always intrigues me when people dump on the airline for leaving, as if there are no good reasons.

At the same time, there is an interesting lack of similar noise coming from the good folk at SHD.  

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-20 15:34:34]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 103, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13256 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 100):
Frontier will increase its fee for a third checked bag from $50 to $75 for all tickets sold Feb. 17, 2003 and after for travel July 11, 2013 and beyond."

Outside of somebody relocating to a new city or job or a business traveler carrying professional-books-papers-and-equipment; who in their right mind still flies with three checked pieces of luggage; or 100 + pounds. They are probably hoarders and deserve the $75 fee for being stupid. They would probably have a carry-on too.

The last time I traveled with three pieces of checked baggage I was literally carrying the kitchen sink I purchased at a Home Depot in the lower 48 and carried it back to Alaska. That was back in the day when 70 lbs per bag still flew. Another trip it was two heavy boxes of ceramic floor tile.

I could see it on a trip to Hawaii or in F9 case Costa Rica or the Caribbean.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently onlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13239 times:
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Quoting stlgph (Reply 100):

"On a separate note, as part of the schedule extension Frontier will increase its fee for a third checked bag from $50 to $75 for all tickets sold Feb. 17, 2003 and after for travel July 11, 2013 and beyond."

United charges $100
Delta and USAirways Charges $125
American charges $150
Jetblue charges $75.
Southwest (Home of the first 2 bags free) charges $75
Airtran charges $75
Spirit charges $75

Hell Allegiant is going to start charging $50 to $75 for the 1st bag soon
(edited to say that I misread this is for bags paid for at the airport)

[Edited 2013-02-20 19:03:07]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1751 posts, RR: 12
Reply 105, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13251 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 92):
How ironic that as F9 started shrinking, and then having all of these route changes left and right...... they start reporting quarterly profits........

Duh......?

Exactly. Frontier has totally found their niche. Adding and dropping markets left and right, often on a whim.


User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1751 posts, RR: 12
Reply 106, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 13243 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 79):
In fleet news, for example, I'm told N954FR is "in country" (early - at GYR as was posted by somemone else) and dickie birds are chirping about another arrival, slightly later in the year.

Yeah that was me. It's an ex-China Eastern A319 built in June 2002. Leased from CIT.

I hope the interior is refreshed well enough to look better than the (2) similar early model direct deliveries to F9 that have overhead bins that look like public buses.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 107, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 13233 times:
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Quoting n7371f (Reply 106):
Yeah that was me. It's an ex-China Eastern A319 built in June 2002. Leased from CIT.

Indeed. MSN 1786.

Some of us are having a debate about what will be on the tail. I - of course and as usual - am hoping for Enrique, the frog to come back - it was one of the top three in a public vote last year:

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee...chipmunk-tree-frog-and-parrot.html

"Frontier Airlines of Denver has announced that Chloe the Chipmunk, Enrique the Tree Frog and Polly the Parrot are the final three contenders in carrier’s search for a new “spokesanimal."

But Polly Parrot got the guernsey and rumors say I'm out of luck with this one. Curses. Maybe next time.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-20 19:26:25]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 108, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 13203 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 105):
Exactly. Frontier has totally found their niche. Adding and dropping markets left and right, often on a whim.

The drop part is what is important...... if there isn't any $$$$ showing up, do what you have to do.......

In the meantime, F9 has DEN, the cash cow of F9, always has and always been. Now, should something happen at DEN, well, F9 will be toast, I have to admit. But until then.....

 


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 109, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13058 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 99):
If I'm reading it correctly it looks like F9 is flying two daily flights on those four days for a total of eight weekly round trips
http://bbjtoday.com/blog/frontier-ai...-for-bellingham-denver-route/21505

Flight schedule

"Denver-to-Bellingham (beginning May 17), flights depart at 8:05 a.m. and 10 a.m. on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays.
Bellingham-to-Denver (beginning May 17), flights depart at 10:40 a.m. and 2:15 p.m. on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays".

"Denver-to-Bellingham (beginning July 1), flights depart at 8:04 a.m. and 9:55 a.m on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays.
Bellingham-to-Denver (beginning July 1), flights depart at 10:35 a.m. and 2:09 p.m. on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturday".

For clarification It looks like the Bellingham Business Journal article in the URL above is mis-interrpeting F9 flight schedule in both directions. I interpeted the "and" between the two times in each direction to mean two separate flights. I suppose "and" was meant to be arriving. F9 Press Release documents four weekly flight as does the early schedule.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineBuddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 535 posts, RR: 4
Reply 110, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12993 times:

I wonder if DEN-MDT is staying past fall? The F9 press release didn' t mention DEN- MDT in it's summer seasonal routes that was released on the 20th.

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 111, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12644 times:

A couple of new items out about F9. The first here is from CAPA, which usually rehashes a lot of the stuff we already know, albeit with somewhat more analytical detail

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...remains-on-the-selling-block-98693

What I found curious here is the last paragraph, last sentence

But its seemingly non-cohesive network strategy could either be a blight on a potential sale, which could disrupt plans by Republic to monetise Frontier by 2H2013.

Just from my own reading between the lines here, could this article here be referring to pax that F9 pi**es-off when they start a route, and then drop it shortly down the line? Do enough pi**ed-off pax equate lower value for a company? Especially with the wonderful hometown press F9 receives concerning this matter, as mentioned above....

Quoting n7371f (Reply 91):

http://www.denverpost.com/business/c...ation

Oh well.... along these lines F9 will suspend GSO-MCO for the season

http://www.journalnow.com/business/b...4-7d58-11e2-ad3c-001a4bcf6878.html

but will remain in its commitment with its new seasonal DEN-GSO.

And as for COS, they're doing the best they can now that F9 has left there

But Earle wasted no time. He was on the phone the same day with other airlines, letting them know the kind of capacity and routes now available. He is encouraged, he said. The airlines aren't giving him the cold shoulder.

http://csbj.com/2013/02/21/springs-airport-moving-on-without-frontier/

Some of the comments below the article, for what they're worth here, give the idea that most Colorado Springs air pax would rather drive to DEN to get selection and save about $100 on fares, and that COS is basically used by those from Pueblos and south of Colorado Springs.

In summary, I guess F9 has to do what it has to do when offering service to a new airport, and then dropping it quickly if there is no $$$$$ there. And since this is becoming a pattern, for better or worse, maybe they need to figure out some new customer service stuff in order to not get lynch mobs started, although I guess there will be some crankcases, and F9 probably already does as best it can. The important thing is not to pi**-off the folks in Denver..... this is the only place where there is milk for them from the cash cow....... and certainly the Denver Post publishing these ill-toned features on F9 as above goes contrary to this notion.

  


User currently offlinekcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3847 posts, RR: 7
Reply 112, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12618 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 102):
At the same time, there is an interesting lack of similar noise coming from the good folk at SHD.

Yeah... they seem to think (or are pretending) the service will return.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 88):
In your opinion. Two of the carriers with the best margins right now are Allegiant and Spirit. Ironically, they are also two of the carriers doing the ULCC thing and adding and pulling cities, routes, and frequencies at will. Would you send them to the minor leagues, too?

Let's see.

G4 - Adding/pulling routes/cities/frequencies. ULCC. Making good money.
NK - Adding/pulling routes/cities/frequencies. ULCC. Making good money.
F9 - Adding/pulling routes/cities/frequencies. ULCC. Making good money.

You can argue the track record of course, and you can argue the consistency of profits, but clearly your perception of what makes sense for every situation is flawed, imvho.

G4 and NK have been far less sporadic in what they've added and dropped. I don't think that's a fair comparison. What city has NK added 5+ destinations from and then completely left months later? G4 seems much more conservative in their planning than F9 has been as well. They take years to build up their larger spokes.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5794 posts, RR: 28
Reply 113, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12580 times:

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 112):
G4 and NK have been far less sporadic in what they've added and dropped. I don't think that's a fair comparison.

It's a much closer comparison than UA or DL, don't you think? And F9 is in a transition mode vs those two that have been doing what they're doing for a while now.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 112):
What city has NK added 5+ destinations from and then completely left months later? G4 seems much more conservative in their planning than F9 has been as well. They take years to build up their larger spokes.

I'm no NK historian but I don't think they've been the most consistent player either. They have dropped frequencies before even beginning new service IIRC and they certainly have added and dropped routes. With COS, F9 didn't exactly devote a lot of resources to it either. It wasn't like they had multiples of nonstops on routes - most were less than daily IIRC. Dropping COS - all of it - seems about on par with NK dropping frequencies out of, say, LAS.

But I understand people's desire to want to put F9 in a box and label it. It just doesn't seem to allow for them to actually make money doing it differently than people want it to.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 114, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12492 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 77):
For the summer, yes. But are OMA and MSN permanently dropped?

I believe seasonally as of now. SHD is seasonally cut as well. It's anyone's guess if they return. Because they already serve MSN/OMA I could see those coming back.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 112):
Quoting mariner (Reply 102):
At the same time, there is an interesting lack of similar noise coming from the good folk at SHD.

Yeah... they seem to think (or are pretending) the service will return.

At least at the moment, all of the MCO reductions are seasonal, with the exception of COU. I'm sure if the decision is made to cut SHD/GSO-MCO permanently, it will get more coverage


User currently offlinekcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3847 posts, RR: 7
Reply 115, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12457 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 114):
At least at the moment, all of the MCO reductions are seasonal, with the exception of COU. I'm sure if the decision is made to cut SHD/GSO-MCO permanently, it will get more coverage

Is Disney world not busiest June - September? I guess it makes sense to run MCO when they do if that's the only time they don't have better places to put the aircraft, but in my area summer is peak travel/vacation season...by far.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 116, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12453 times:
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Quoting n7371f (Reply 106):
I hope the interior is refreshed well enough to look better than the (2) similar early model direct deliveries to F9 that have overhead bins that look like public buses.

Well, well, whatever the bins are like on N954FR, summer's coming and I believe there might be a bit of aircraft porn at Frontier.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 114):
I believe seasonally as of now. SHD is seasonally cut as well.

SHD was always out of left field - as COU surely was - but it will be fun if it comes back.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 115):
Is Disney world not busiest June - September? I guess it makes sense to run MCO when they do if that's the only time they don't have better places to put the aircraft, but in my area summer is peak travel/vacation season...by far.

Even DEN-MCO drops from 3 x daily in March to 2 x daily in July.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 117, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12391 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 116):
aircraft porn

I've been reading this and other boards for awhile now but I don't believe I've ever seen the term "Aircraft Porn" used. What the F (pardon the pun) is aircraft porn? I guess it gives a new meaning to the term "getting some tail"



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 118, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 12359 times:
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Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 117):
I've been reading this and other boards for awhile now but I don't believe I've ever seen the term "Aircraft Porn" used. What the F (pardon the pun) is aircraft porn? I guess it gives a new meaning to the term "getting some tail

Sexy? A turn-on? For a lot of people in my business, Oscar night is star porn and a film festival is movie porn.

I guess it'll leak out soon enough but it's a Frontier's thing, when they're ready, I won't spoil the fun. There isn't enough fun around here these days.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-23 19:34:58]


aeternum nauta
User currently onlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 119, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12253 times:
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Sorry, as a Pharm Tech in a hospital we don't have any "porn". Nothing sexy about new drugs that come to market. The only thing sexy in this industry is the drug reps and they mostly hang around the doctors. But I get it some people might have considered JFK T5 when it opened terminal porn.


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 120, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 12117 times:

The Denver area is under siege with another one of its winter snowstorms. Up to a foot of snow is forecast - 5 inches already on the ground - and some 200 arrivals and departures already announced.

Hey, but this is DEN. The snowplows are humming, the deicers are deicing..... and if lucky, maybe your flight can only be delayed a couple of hours.

Anyways..... since DEN is the bread and butter for F9, I would like to think that the operations people there know how to deal with these meager storms. After all, its not going to be like the 40 some inches of snow that can really shut DEN down........


 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 121, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 12106 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 120):
Hey, but this is DEN.

Speaking of DEN - do you know how many of the airlines (at DEN) have introduced baggage self-tagging yet?

TIA

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 122, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 12086 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 121):
Speaking of DEN - do you know how many of the airlines (at DEN) have introduced baggage self-tagging yet?

I don't think that any carrier here is doing this yet. And isn't this something that's just really in its baby steps? I see that NZ has these on flights only from AKL to SYD, but isn't that really about it at this stage?

I think that this is a good idea...... for those pax who dislike lines and like having control over their air travel. And when NK introduces this.... I'm sure they'll find a way to get another fee out of this........  

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 123, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 12070 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 122):
I don't think that any carrier here is doing this yet. And isn't this something that's just really in its baby steps? I see that NZ has these on flights only from AKL to SYD, but isn't that really about it at this stage?

At AKL, Air NZ is moving to fully automation - I haven't used the counter for two years going to Australia - and I believe Hawaiian is going the same way at HNL.

http://www.futuretravelexperience.co...n-adopts-self-service-at-honolulu/

Alaska is on the bandwagon, and Westjet:

http://splash.alaskasworld.com/Newsr...s/ASstories/AS_20120522_053107.asp

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...g-tagging-to-the-us-180639791.html

And the new terminal at LAS has it:

http://www.terminalu.com/n-america/l...minal-3-at-mccarran-airport/27468/

"Las Vegas opens doors to its new ‘self-service’ Terminal 3 at McCarran airport"

I'm a Luddite, I have trouble with an on-off switch, and I rebelled when I first encountered it, but I was guided the process and now I;m completely comfortable with it.

I think it is the coming way.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 124, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 12012 times:

Oh boy more self serve. You almost have to wonder if self tagging is a first attempt by the airlines to reduce or even waive any or all liability for a lost or delayed piece of checked baggage because an airline employee did not touch the bag.

I hope it doesn't go there but in this day and age of airline accessorial fees I can see a potential means for the airlines to start charging a $75f fee for delivering a passenger his/her lost or delayed luggage. citing the passenger tagged it.

It mimics how coolers and alike are accepted. The airline is responsible for loss but not for spoilage of the contents; even if the spoilage was caused by a delayed flight(s). Will passengers who self tag have to sign a wavier the airline is not responsible for their checked pieces.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineJoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11986 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 114):
I believe seasonally as of now. SHD is seasonally cut as well. It's anyone's guess if they return. Because they already serve MSN/OMA I could see those coming back.

The OMA-MCO flight times was awful this year! My cousin takes his entire family of 5 to Disney every year via F9 and talking with him at Christmas, he said the flights times changes were terrible. They were going to connect on WN this year instead. A 5pm Saturday departure is not desired. If it returns next year, it needs to be an am departure and the flights will be full again!


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 126, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11962 times:

According to Airfleets.net, F9 took delivery of N718AT and N786AT on 2/8/13, and 2/15/13. Both leased from GECAS. I'm not sure when they'll actually start flying for F9 though. I assume these will be replacing the final 2 A318s?

User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11973 times:

Wind is what usually kills Denver.....it's so flat out by the airport it can create blizzard conditions with very little snow. The wind is what you need to watch. Any disruption kills frontier absolutely nowhere to reroute people thru Frontiers customer service agents should get double pay the next few days probably one of the worst jobs to have on these days. I had a five hour delayed flight at DIA once and took.a photo of frontiers customer service so long easily twice as long as United's and southwest and people more p!ssed and visibly upset as there's no way to easily reroute them when bad weather hits Denver

User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11908 times:

at least united and southwest can fly you to other cities to connect to Palm Spring lets just say if you are on frontier you are the mercy of when seats open on the exact route and frontier runs high occupancy. Allegiant tries to just never cancel flights even if heavy delays and doesnt take connections i think think froniter has some things to work on they were lucky there hasnt been an all out major blizzard this winter in either Denver or Trenton. Trenton is much easier you just do an allegiant fly the fligth two days later or something no connections so its just like alllegiant easy.

User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1751 posts, RR: 12
Reply 129, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11911 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 126):
F9 took delivery of N718AT and N786AT on 2/8/13

N786AT is a Boeing 727-214(F) former owned by ASTAR Air Cargo


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1322 posts, RR: 12
Reply 130, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11883 times:

Quoting n7371f (Reply 129):
F9 took delivery of N718AT and N786AT on 2/8/13

N786AT is a Boeing 727-214(F) former owned by ASTAR Air Cargo

The two are formerly B-2226 and B-2227 of China Eastern Airlines. It showed them as having temporary registrations of N718/786. I assume F9 will rename them N954/955. Also looks like they lost N940 to Rossiya in Feb as well. So it'll be a net gain of one 319. (Still a lose if you count the 2 318s leaving as well)


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11674 times:

Cancelled flights for Sunday, Feb. 24, 2013:

Flight 071: Cancun (CUN) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 100: Denver (DEN) to Minneapolis (MSP)
Flight 115: Minneapolis (MSP) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 138: Denver (DEN) to Dallas (DFW)
Flight 198: Denver (DEN) to Dayton (DAY)
Flight 230: Denver (DEN) to Nashville (BNA)
Flight 232: San Francisco (SFO) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 261: Denver (DEN) to Orange County/Santa Ana (SNA)
Flight 262: Orange County/Santa Ana (SNA) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 271: Denver (DEN) to Bozeman (BZN)
Flight 282: Salt Lake City (SLC) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 303: Denver (DEN) to Spokane (GEG)
Flight 391: Denver (DEN) to Palm Springs (PSP)
Flight 413: Bozeman (BZN) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 428: Denver (DEN) to Atlanta (ATL)
Flight 551: Denver (DEN) to San Diego (SAN)
Flight 552: San Diego (SAN) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 570: Salt Lake City (SLC) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 575: Denver (DEN) to Salt Lake City (SLC)
Flight 579: Denver (DEN) to Salt Lake City (SLC)
Flight 598: Denver (DEN) to Little Rock (LIT)
Flight 599: Little Rock (LIT) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 624: Palm Springs (PSP) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 648: Denver (DEN) to Bloomington-Normal (BMI)
Flight 649: Bloomington-Normal (BMI) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 659: Denver (DEN) to San Francisco (SFO)
Flight 667: Atlanta (ATL) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 793: Denver (DEN) to Portland (PDX)
Flight 798: Portland (PDX) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 816: Denver (DEN) to Kansas City (MCI)
Flight 819: Kansas City (MCI) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 841: Denver (DEN) to Seattle (SEA)
Flight 848: Seattle (SEA) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 851: Denver (DEN) to Phoenix (PHX)
Flight 854: Phoenix (PHX) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 861: Dallas (DFW) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 1060: Denver (DEN) to Colorado Springs (COS)
Flight 1338: Albuquerque (ABQ) to Denver (DEN)
Flight 1341: Denver (DEN) to Albuquerque (ABQ)


Cancelled flights for Monday, Feb. 25, 2013:


•Flight 847: Dayton (DAY) to Denver (DEN)

•Flight 304: Spokane (GEG) to Denver (DEN)

•Flight 239: Nashville (BNA) to Denver (DEN)

•Flight 1696: Colorado Springs (COS) to Denver (DEN)


The biggest problems will also be the yyy-zzz flight that is 2.5 late on arrival but connecting flights xyz took off just 2.5 hours late and now all seats are sold out for days


User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 143 posts, RR: 12
Reply 132, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11641 times:

Can anyone confirm WN or UA's cancellations in DEN yesterday? All things considered, I don't think F9's cancellations were that bad. A friend at WN said they only operated 31 flights in DEN yesterday. So, did WN cancel 3/4 of their DEN flights yesterday? I believe F9 is more likely to run a flight, albeit delayed, than WN or UA. F9's major hub is DEN, so they tend to try to run as full a schedule as posisble. It seems WN and UA are more likely to cancel DEN flights because of the downline impact to the rest of their networks. F9 does not have this issue so it seems F9 will try to make every attempt to operate their flights in DEN.

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 133, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11623 times:

Looks like F9 is parting ways with Expedia Travel http://media.flyfrontier.com/article....cfm?article_id=5439&view_id=1290&

For several years I've use the ITA software http://matrix.itasoftware.com/ You can't purchase from the URL but it is a very good research tool.

The one downside I've noticed is the software is slow to populate F9 markets after they are announced. I suppose some other software drives that which may include GDS, OAG or even Sabre or Apollo.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7720 posts, RR: 15
Reply 134, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11614 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 133):

Looks like F9 is parting ways with Expedia Travel http://media.flyfrontier.com/article....cfm?article_id=5439&view_id=1290&

For several years I've use the ITA software http://matrix.itasoftware.com/ You can't purchase from the URL but it is a very good research tool.

The one downside I've noticed is the software is slow to populate F9 markets after they are announced. I suppose some other software drives that which may include GDS, OAG or even Sabre or Apollo.

That's a big deal. I'll tell you why. In DEN F9 has tended to have good penetration for F9.com, but in spokes it has been very poor and they have come to depend heavily on the OTAs. I feel confident in saying that in the Chicago, Los Angeles, Phoenix, etc. point of sale they get over half their bookings from Ex/Tr/Or.

This is a great example of their old strategy bumping into the new one. In order to be a ULCC they need to dump the costs of being in the OTA systems. That probably works fairly well in these 4/week markets they are entering where there is no competition. That's what G4 does. I think it will finish sinking them in traditional markets like LAX/SFO/DFW to cut off the OTAs. If they only lose Expedia it isn't the end of the world, but it will hurt those markets. If they exit all three major OTAs I think they will be unsustainable in their traditional network. OTOH, I think it is already their strategy to ween themselves of their traditional Denver hub network, so I think this is a concerted plan more than a careless cost-saving move.

So, let's take a second and explain why this is harder to do for them than for G4/WN which use no OTAs. WN is a major player in every city they serve and spend a ton on advertising. G4 flies to destination cities. G4 probably sells jack in Los Angeles, but sells everything in these little Iowa, etc. towns where G4.com is nearly the only way to buy. This works fine for F9's MCO network, but it will cause F9 to exit more big markets from DEN.

I also think this is dumb for TTN. TTN has no visibility at all. Nobody knows where it is. The point-of-sale market in TTN is large in the region, but a lot of what they have added are not cities that draw passengers easily...like CMH. They need the OTAs to direct customers away from PHL and to TTN. I think this is a questionable tactic for TTN.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 135, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11582 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 133):
Looks like F9 is parting ways with Expedia Travel

This appears to be an extension of the move that was signalled back in September last year:

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/s...iers-who-book-elsewhere/57757844/1

"Frontier Airlines to penalize fliers who book elsewhere

Frontier Airlines is the latest carrier to jump into the fight, announcing Wednesday that it will penalize passengers who don't book directly with the airline. Those fliers won't be able to get seat assignments until check-in. And they'll pay more in fees while earning half as many frequent flier miles."


Based on what DS has said in staff letters, I assume they are sufficiently encouraged by the reaction to make this latest move.

I won't fall over in shock if they end the relationship with some of the other online travel sites.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3640 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11565 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 132):
Can anyone confirm WN or UA's cancellations in DEN yesterday? All things considered, I don't think F9's cancellations were that bad. A friend at WN said they only operated 31 flights in DEN yesterday

Yeah but WN and UA have tons of other hubs to re-route those people thru. Frontier has zero options to re route the passengers thru. Frontier has a domino effect the other airlines dont with these delays. Frontier will end up buying alot tickets on other airlines to move the passengers which costs $$$


User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 579 posts, RR: 1
Reply 137, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11552 times:

Frontier used supplemental lift from charter carriers to get their network back in order after the major storm last year. I don't think Frontier passengers have anything to worry about.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 138, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11541 times:
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Quoting JA (Reply 137):

Frontier used supplemental lift from charter carriers to get their network back in order after the major storm last year

Now that was a storm, and in summer, too. It was the hail that did the damage, as in the second photo here:

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/07/1...s-photos-of-hail-damage-to-planes/

One aircraft was out of action for weeks.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 17
Reply 139, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11531 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 136):
Yeah but WN and UA have tons of other hubs to re-route those people thru. Frontier has zero options to re route the passengers thru. Frontier has a domino effect the other airlines dont with these delays. Frontier will end up buying alot tickets on other airlines to move the passengers which costs $$$

Well, yea, that was the point of the post. WN and UA will cancel a DEN flight so it doesn't affect their other hubs. F9 will not do that unless they have to. They would rather operate the flight delayed because there are no other hubs. So, if you are trying to get to DEN, F9 will make every effort to try to get you there. WN and UA might sacrifice the DEN hub on a bad weather day to save their other hubs. That works for the other carriers if a BNA passenger is connecting in DEN to LAX. UA and WN can route that passenger around DEN to avoid the DEN weather. BUT, what about the people trying to just get to DEN? That's where F9 might do a better job when the weather gets bad in DEN.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7720 posts, RR: 15
Reply 140, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11449 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 134):
That's a big deal.
Quoting mariner (Reply 135):
This appears to be an extension of the move that was signalled back in September last year:

In summation of my earlier comments. If it isn't clear enough already, everybody should expect that F9 will pretty soon exclusively be operating in markets like MCO-HTS and DEN-SCK. The days of F9 flying between major markets is quickly coming to a close. What we are watching right now is the transition. I'm just not sure there are 50+ airplanes of flying in this new model. It takes a lot of 4/week routes to add up to 50+ Airbuses.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 141, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11420 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 134):
WN which use no OTAs

Actually WN uses one OTA which I'm aware of. It is only available to those affiliated with the military and solely for leisure travel meaning active duty and their families. It may roll over to one or two other affiliates. I suppose it could be the OTA which may be using WN. Which ever way there is at lease one place one sect of the populous (a potential 1.25 million customers) can purchase WN tickets from one other URL other than WN.com

I'm surprised F9 as a leisure carrier isn't catering more to the military community which is a significant customer base with disposable cash. Most of their in theater pay is tax free with extra allowances in play. The troops are coming home from Southwest Asia and traveling. In lieu of TYS-MCO I would have tried BNA-MCO which appears to really be doing well. WN flies it several times daily.

The military community has the Shades of the Green military only hotel in Orlando. http://www.shadesofgreen.org/ I might also try SAT-MCO and FAY-MCO. The hotel is available to all sects of the military community including retirees or the warriors of yesteryear.

Quoting mariner (Reply 135):
This appears to be an extension of the move that was signaled back in September last
year:

Yes, I'm surprised it took F9 the five or so months to do it.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinekcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3847 posts, RR: 7
Reply 142, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11401 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 140):
If it isn't clear enough already, everybody should expect that F9 will pretty soon exclusively be operating in markets like MCO-HTS and DEN-SCK.

Why would they fly HTS-MCO on top of G4 when CRW-MCO has no competition? Although I'm sure you were just making an example.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25707 posts, RR: 85
Reply 143, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11392 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 140):
What we are watching right now is the transition.

Welcome to the new Frontier.

I've been talking about this restructure for months - a year - and it isn't over yet. It's different. It isn't "old" Frontier anymore.

But I don't count CLE and CVG as "not major markets", nor, in the case of CVG, is it 4 x weekly.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 142):
Why would they fly HTS-MCO on top of G4 when CRW-MCO has no competition?

I'd love to see CRW-MCO  

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-25 15:05:24]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1751 posts, RR: 12
Reply 144, posted (1 year 10 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11192 times: