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Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W  
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12074 posts, RR: 34
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43381 times:

Air Canada will introduce a 458-seater Boeing 777-300ER aircraft on the Montreal - Paris CDG route from July 11. The firm also announces a new Executive First Class Seating as well as the introduction of Premium Economy Class. The cabin configuration will be C36 W24 Y398 and economy class will be a 3-4-3 layout.

AC870 YUL2055 – 0945+1CDG 77W D
AC871 CDG1330 – 1450YUL 77W D

http://airlineroute.net/2013/02/07/ac-77w-jul13/



More information on the cabin can be found at http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/77W.html

Always nice to see a high density 77W  

[Edited 2013-02-07 04:22:02]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
227 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43387 times:

What seats do that have in business class since they are not using the herringbone seat found in the rest of their 777 fleet?

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8420 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43355 times:
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what type of J class seat is AC using now ?

User currently onlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1627 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43311 times:

It looks like the window seats on row 59 get a bit more legroom, is this correct?


Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43203 times:

Another cattle car... That seems very tight. I guess they are taking a page from AF's book?

User currently onlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1607 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43203 times:

I once wrote on this with regard to the best economy flight I ever had was a brand new AC 773 to Toronto out of Heathrow.9 across seats (must have been 19-20 in seats) good legroom etc etc. I guess this move is simply a sign of the times.

User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3284 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43043 times:

Is the whole fleet being re-fitted or just specific aircraft?
Or am I just rambling utter tripe (again?) and this is one of the newbies?


User currently offlineQF15 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 43045 times:

Wow! That looks very crowded.
Anyone have seat numbers on the highest density 77W flying these days and what airline?? ..this would have to be close to it I'd imagine.


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 42987 times:

Quoting QF15 (Reply 7):
Anyone have seat numbers on the highest density 77W flying these days and what airline?? ..this would have to be close to it I'd imagine.

AF has 472 seats for flights to old colonies and territories, I think. EK has 427 on two class A/C.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 12074 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 42935 times:

Quoting QF15 (Reply 7):
nyone have seat numbers on the highest density 77W flying these days and what airline?? ..this would have to be close to it I'd imagine.

The KLM 77W's have 425 seats.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8561 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 42596 times:
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Quoting skipness1E (Reply 6):
Is the whole fleet being re-fitted or just specific aircraft?

- That is a good question.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 6):
this is one of the newbies?

- Yes, this is one of 5 new builds due this and next year.



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineHawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 42568 times:

I remember flying the 77W with AC on the CDG-YUL route, it was one of the most comfortable flights I've ever had with AC in economy class. The introduction of Premium Economy would be a very attractive option for me, especially for the additional legroom. I'm sort of thinking it's like United's Economy Plus, but with a few more benefits.

User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2640 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 42450 times:
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CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Always nice to see a high density 77W

In a way, yes it is. I've often argued that there is a case for the 777-9X precisely because there are airlines fitting more and more seats onto the 777-300ER. The larger size of the 777-9X will be extremely attractive to such airlines. The fact that more and more airlines are putting 400+ seats on a 777-300ER is an indication that a larger 777 is needed.

Quoting parapente (Reply 5):
I guess this move is simply a sign of the times.

Indeed it is, although it is unfortunate for the traveller. A lot of aircraft have started its service life with a lower density configuration than it ends with. The original 747s were 9 across in economy, but now 10 across is standard. Likewise the 777. Smaller widebodies such as the DC10 and the L-1011 have also been equipped with more seats per row later on in its service life to minimise the per seat costs as fuel prices gradually get higher and higher.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 2067 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 42430 times:

Meh. AC was starting to lose me. This seals the deal. I just know AC will roll this out fleet wide. Less privacy in J. Cramped 10 abreast in Y. What reason is there to take AC anymore? 24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

Heck, at least other airlines that offer such cramped cabins participate in the Amex platinum airline program. Not AC.

Here's hoping Westjet grows and officially becomes a Oneworld member.


User currently offlineAirCanada787 From Canada, joined Nov 2010, 285 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 42334 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 1):

What seats do that have in business class since they are not using the herringbone seat found in the rest of their 777 fleet?

They are launching a new Executive Class seat which is mentioned on the Air Canada website here:


The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
User currently onlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3033 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 42179 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
Heck, at least other airlines that offer such cramped cabins participate in the Amex platinum airline program. Not AC.

They do, actually.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4800 posts, RR: 44
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 41879 times:

this is how you can make good money on long haul VFR (ethnic) routes operated with B777-300ERs by having a ultra high density configuration perfectly suited to the market demographic hence reducing your operating cost per seat unit.

Routes ideally suited to such a configuration include YUL-CMN (3 weekly), DEL (4 weekly), YVR-MNL (4 weekly), HKG (daily) and Canada-China

New configuration is 36 business class (flat beds) + 24 premium economy and 398 economy class with economy seats losing one-inch of legroom from the existing fleet at 31-inches due to their “slimline” leather seats.

Am surprised (in a good way) that they managed to squeeze in more seats on a B77W than Emirates does in a 2 class configuration ! With this layout, Air Canada thus becomes the airline with the second highest seat count for a legacy carrier operating long haul flights using a B77W as # 1 is Air France (Caribbean/BKK flights layout) which has 478 seats on board its B77Ws.

To give you an idea on how big certain long haul markets are from Canada, the list is below for 2012:

YYZ-HKG 293,000 pax
YYZ-DEL 176,000 pax
YYZ-LHR 392,000 pax
YYZ-CDG 198,000 pax
YYZ-PEK 182,000 pax
YYZ-PVG 121,000 pax
YYZ-MNL 143,000 pax
YYZ-FCO 181,000 pax
YYZ-ICN 100,000 pax

YVR-PEK 135,000 pax
YVR-DEL 142,000 pax
YVR-MNL 88,000 pax
YVR-LHR 232,000 pax
YVR-HKG 283,000 pax
YVR-PVG 155,000 pax
YVR-ICN 130,000 pax
YVR-NRT 110,000 pax

YUL-CDG 503,000 pax
YUL-LHR 129,000 pax
YUL-CMN 94,000 pax

[Edited 2013-02-07 06:16:41]

User currently onlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 41862 times:

I don't think it really makes much difference to the average economy passenger how many passengers there are in the plane in total. If you are sitting in economy at the back of the plane, it doesn't matter to you whether the front has first, business class or more economy. And if you are sitting at the front in business or first class, it doesn't matter to you how many people are sitting behind the curtain behind you. You may not even see them or hear them, any you'll get off before them all anyway.

User currently offlineswallow From Uganda, joined Jul 2007, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 41678 times:

Hmmm... EK gets lots of stick for its 3-4-3 layout in Y, but more and more airlines are adopting it

AC joins the cramped club which includes AA, CZ, KL, EK, EY, AF, KQ, NZ, 9W........

Soon enough, 9-abreast in coach will be the exception rather than the rule



The grass is greener where you water it
User currently offlineairceo From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 41488 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
Here's hoping Westjet grows and officially becomes a Oneworld member.

All indications are that they're happy to stick to their knitting and stay within the continent only for the foreseeable future. That said I would love to see a second big international player sporting the maple leaf.

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):

24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

I'll hold of judging for now I fear you may be right.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 16):

this is how you can make good money on long haul VFR (ethnic) routes operated with B777-300ERs by having a ultra high density configuration perfectly suited to the market demographic hence reducing your operating cost per seat unit.

I'm not so sure... Just because it works for some carriers doesn't mean it will for all carriers. I realize this has worked very well for EK, but AC is not EK. Sitting 10 abreast from DXB to India is one thing, sitting 10 abreast from YYZ to India is quit another. I also worry that high yield premium pax will not like the more compact cabin and will look elsewhere.

@airceo



blogger at airceo | reach me: @airceo or fly@airceo.com
User currently offlinechrisa330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 634 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 41509 times:

The J class seat being introduced on these 5 new B77W are interim. AC will be launching a fully redesigned J class seat with the introduction of the 787s in 2014.

The J class seat on the high density 77W is the same as those found on SWISS and brussels airlines.


User currently offlinechrisa330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 634 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 41442 times:

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

Looks like they're charging almost twice the lowest Y fare available (Tango).

YUL-CDG has Tango as $530/direction, Y+ is $969. For comparison, the J fare is $1910.

Not at bad as I thought it would have been.


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4800 posts, RR: 44
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 41322 times:

Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
I'm not so sure... Just because it works for some carriers doesn't mean it will for all carriers. I realize this has worked very well for EK, but AC is not EK. Sitting 10 abreast from DXB to India is one thing, sitting 10 abreast from YYZ to India is quit another. I also worry that high yield premium pax will not like the more compact cabin and will look elsewhere.

many airlines worldwide now have 10 abreast in Y class on board their B77W fleet of which EK was the pioneer of. These include Etihad, Air France, KLM, Jet Airways, TAM Brazil and now Air Canada.

VFR pax who use these carriers have no problem sitting in this arrangement for long haul flights as you see 1000s everyday flying EK to USA/Australia/GRU etc via DXB + KLM via AMS !


User currently offlinejetboytwa From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 389 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 41206 times:

The seats appear to be the Thompson Vantage found on Swiss, Finnair, Delta, etc.

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13250 posts, RR: 100
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 41115 times:
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Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
C36 W24 Y398

It always amazes me how few Y+ seats will be in any cabin. It shows how few people are willing to pay for comfort. I understand J/C is often too pricey, but this shows that only 6% of Y passengers are willing to pay for comfort.  
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):
The fact that more and more airlines are putting 400+ seats on a 777-300ER is an indication that a larger 777 is needed.
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):
Indeed it is, although it is unfortunate for the traveller.

Why is it unfortunate they are being provided the product they wish to pay for. If someone wants more comfort, there is Y+/W. Or even the C seats. The reality is that AC must compete with bargain fairs to CDG and now they have a configuration to make money.

Everyone demands more comfort... then they go online and book the cheapest fair.

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

1.5X just breaks even on the floor real-estate. Since Y+ will have a lower load factor, 2X is very reasonable. Aircraft real estate is expensive. Since few (if any) will pay more for 9 across Y in a 777, the market is moving to 10 across Y and offering Y+/W for those who care enough to pay for space.

Considering how cheap flights are versus 30 years ago... I'm not complaining. Pick your seat and enjoy!   

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
25 Post contains images AirbusA6 : The answer to this is to search out A380 flights, and then enjoy the extra shoulder room from having an identical 10Y layout on a much wider plane
26 thenoflyzone : So YUL-CDG gets a 30% seat increase......! This new J class product looks good. Same 180% lie-flat recline, same seat length (longer in lie-flat mode)
27 longhauler : I understand that the re-design of the J product was in response to passenger suggestion. While the herringbone arrangement was state-of-the-art 10 y
28 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Witness NZ, which is a 4 star airline with longhaul routes. The 77Ws being delivered are 10 abreast Y. They're not even trying to get a premium on th
29 intermodal64 : It sort of does make a difference when you get to baggage claim, and it takes an hour to retrieve your luggage. This is one reason I prefer smaller a
30 Hawaiian763 : WestJet growing yes, joining Oneworld, wouldn't be too happy about that. I would be more happy if they stayed on the course that they are on right no
31 MaverickM11 : I don't think any carrier is getting a "premium" on a 9 across, so much as estimating that the cost to refit a frame into 10-across is higher than th
32 rbgso : Using one jetbridge I imagine this thing would take forever to unload! If you're in the last row you'd have time to watch a sitcom before you exit.
33 ytz : You're thinking of Aeroplan Platinum. Not American Express Platinum. https://www298.americanexpress.com/platinum/secure/ca/en/benefit.do?method=loadB
34 na : Surely a plane to avoided in Eco. The 777 seems perfectly suited to become a sardine can. A trend thats getting worse. Absolutely.
35 JAAlbert : Wow that's a lot of folks on one flight. How many cabin crew are required to handle 458 passengers?
36 ytz : One more concern. Number of washrooms. Imagine the lineups and the ummm comfort level....
37 chrisa330 : Can anyone comment on what impact to range a capacity increase like this would have? Wondering if this change still allows for these aircraft to fly A
38 ytz : Not just the 777. The 787 has hit sardine can status just after launch. I loved the idea of the 787. But in the future, I'll look for carriers operat
39 Post contains images PW100 : Holy crap, and hyere I was, thinking KLM's 425 was tight!! Question: will AC now consider this to be a VLA . . .
40 skipness1E : Having flown on a ten abreast Emirates model, I realised that unless you're, well shall we actually say fat, it's fine. For an economy product, for wh
41 Post contains images 777ER : When I fly long haul my first choice is Y+ which is why NZ currently gets all my business from AKL. If the AC Y+ cabin works out cheaper via SYD and
42 ytz : 109 more pax? Should reduce payload by 30 000 lbs. Range can stay the same at a reduced payload. Or they pack up the plane to the gills and only have
43 chrisa330 : I agree that they'll at some point retrofit Y class to 10 abreast as well as introduce Y+ across the whole 777 fleet. I wouldn't be surprised if they
44 Arrow : This is why I now look for long haul f;lights using A330,A340,767 as equipment. With the 2-3-2 or 2-4-2 seating I can get into those window/aisle seat
45 rampbro : I was under the impression that AC was going to get Rouge to do this kind of flying? Or are they are going after the CDG CNXs (M-E, Africa), for which
46 ElPistolero : The key point in that statement is "for what you pay". Any Canadian resident who's travelled on an itinerary not originating in Canada (that they the
47 WildcatYXU : Well, actually, the same TK gives you
48 ytz : Fine and comfortable are two different things. Value for money, as well, is an altogether different matter.
49 CPDC10-30 : I beg to differ. I'm not fat, but large (6'3" / 200 lbs). I have broad shoulders, which I can't do anything about, even if I lost 50 pounds. On the 9
50 sankaps : Has Jet already converted their 77Ws to 10 abreast? Their seat maps still show them as 9 abreast...
51 reffado : Just when I thought TAM was already squeezing people in on their 362 seater 77W's. On a side note, do the "regular" AC 77W aircraft have first class?
52 WildcatYXU : Only business and economy. Y+ is new for AC.
53 SpaceshipDC10 : I guess so. When we reflect on how it was with wide-bodies at their beginning, 8 or 9 abreast Ten years later, it was 9 or 10 for the same aircraft t
54 ytz : TK offers Y+ on short-haul? Since when? And when I checked for May, a rtn J ticket IST-BUD is around 2200 TYR or about CA$1240. If you meant to say Y
55 Roseflyer : 6 lavatories for 400 economy passengers is going to create a mess. Currently they have 8 lavatories for 300 economy passengers on the 77Ws.
56 airbazar : That would be true if the prices would be going down for the traveler but they aren't because air fares are not dictated by how many seats you can cr
57 WildcatYXU : Yes, my apologies. That's exactly what I meant. Now, I have to say that I could never find an Y+ fare under 2k. But I have to admit that I was always
58 ytz : It ain't great for the upper cabins either. I am assuming 3 washrooms for 60 pax in J and Y+. Certainly not the ratio that most AC J pax are used to.
59 krisyyz : I've flown on AC's B77W a few times and have always considered them to be very comfortable planes, so I'm pretty disappointed at this new config. If t
60 longhauler : Looking in the past, I can't think of any time where AC "misjudged" its Customers, and introduced a product that was a "bomb". The bottom line is just
61 ytz : If you ever have time, you should simply visit the TK office in TO and chat with them about it. I will admit that the one area where TK seriously lag
62 Roseflyer : They might fit two in front of 1L. Not sure about that. The number of lavatories on planes seems to be going down. LH only has 2 for their main deck
63 ytz : Agreed. However, this will only work if AC actually reduces its fares to try and steal more marketshare from TS. Why would any price sensitive custom
64 longhauler : I was only using Transat as an example. Substitute AF, or KL in there. No. Rouge will be 7 abreast in Y, and the new Premium Economy product at the f
65 WildcatYXU : According to AC's representative on FT, no. The first two Rouge planes should be the "pineapples", meaning ex HA planes. Domestic J-like seats in the
66 ytz : IMHO, NZ does it best because they actually target Y+ as a "premium" economy experience, as opposed to an economy plus experience, which most america
67 Post contains images seabosdca : And they do that even if the difference is only 5%. This is the free market at work, folks. The customers are getting exactly what their behavior sho
68 flyyul : Let me correct information from AC internal: -The 5 B777-300ER with 458 seats will not do ultra long haul flying - this will not be the end state conf
69 ytz : As per my understanding, the 350 would be closer to 18. In any event, something better than nothing. For me personally, I've got slightly broader sho
70 cmf : It amazes me how poorly most airlines sell Y+. Another problem is that the package varies significantly between airlines so what is a good deal on on
71 LXA340 : THe C Seats could be the Thomson seats found on airlines such as LX, SN or OS looking at the configuration
72 cschleic : But don't some 330 operators have 9 across, instead of the usual 8? Air Transat comes to mind. Seat width is 16.5 (per seatguru) vs. 18.0 for their "
73 Post contains images Qantas744ER : New J seat. They are naming this one "Executive First Seat" with the herringbone seat being the "Executive First Suite" The 12 77W's currently in the
74 jreuschl : How does this high-density seat width compare to say a regular 73x/A32x seat? Actually, it appears it would be the same, correct? So some passengers w
75 Post contains links LondonCity : Air AsiaX has 3-3-3 seating on both its A330s and A340s. Not sure if the A340s are in service right now (since Air AsiaX withdrew from Europe) but th
76 Post contains links thenoflyzone : COI config on AF is 468 seats. http://www.airfrance.fr/common/image...bine/fr/B777300_468pax_maxi_fr.gif Thenoflyzone
77 ytz : Compare Air Asia's fares for the same distance though. Air Canada is increasing passenger capacity on its 77W by 31%. I can't even picture AC droppin
78 flyyul : The intention is for Air Canada to match TS pricing. This is a clear message that Air Canada intends on being a serious competitor in the Montreal-Pa
79 Viscount724 : I much prefer the staggered J seats as on the new AC 77Ws to the herringbone layout. Many passenges prefefer to face forward, and the new seats (like
80 ytz : I don't buy that very easily. Interim till the 787? And they were willing to spend millions and yet another configuration? I could see this layout be
81 Viscount724 : Different routes often have vastly different characteristics. Other carriers cope with similar situations. For example KL 77Ws are 10-abreast and the
82 ytz : You should let the people who run your websites know. The numbers I quoted were for end march and end August. Now if AC is dropping Y fares by 25% th
83 ytz : Your frequent fliers most certainly will. And if they don't like the product, well.... If that's the case, what's the point of Rouge? AC can clearly
84 Viscount724 : Difference is that the high-density 77Ws are intended for routes that have strong price-sensitive Y class demand but also significant premium demand,
85 flyyul : AC doesn't want to invest more assets in terms of frequency but rather better use of existing frequency offering in heavily slot restricted airports.
86 krisyyz : No, on a 10 abreast 744. I even found KL's 3-3-3 772 a bit a bit tight. AKAIK, most airlines that switched their 777s to 10 abreast took most of the
87 SpaceshipDC10 : Indeed some airlines have a 9 across. Doing that, is a bit like cramming 10 across on a DC-10 or MD-11 comfort-wise, as some airlines have done, and
88 CF105Arrow : Flyyul, why does the Executive First seat pitch differ, isn't it possible to use a more uniform seat pitch rather than 3 inches difference between two
89 ytz : @flyyul Fair enough. The comment wasn't specifically directed at you personally. ======== Overall, I think I'm most disappointed by the size of the Y+
90 ElPistolero : AF/KL and TS are very different entities. One has a global network - the other caters to folk for whom time isn't an issue. For AC to match AF/KL on
91 Viscount724 : But who isn't within North America these days, leaving aside the odd niche operator like Porter? In my experience AC's service on domestic/transborde
92 9252fly : In very general terms,I find a.net postings tend to question decisions by airlines to make changes as if they haven't the slightest clue what they ar
93 WildcatYXU : Currently it's impossible to upgrade from Y to O using E-upgrades. As far as upgrading from O to J is concerned, the same rules apply as for the M fa
94 davidCA : Why? YUL-CDG could have sufficient point-to-point traffic to fill a high density aircraft. So might other markets.
95 brilondon : I agree. That is what I was told by a gentleman I was sitting beside on my last flight to LHR. We won't see the changes on the Asian routes as they w
96 ElPistolero : That post was a response to a post comparing AC to AF/KL. Most ex-Canada traffic on KL is not headed to AMS - it feeds other airports. Which markets
97 Viscount724 : However Canada-Germany is a very large O&D market and many passengers on FRA flights are connecting to other cities in Germany.
98 Mikey86 : No need for an A380 when you can pack people in a 77W to this amount - who cares about space and comfort AC says :P!
99 gegtim : Wonder what the max fuel load will be on these a/c?
100 Post contains images YVRLTN : Oh well, as a leisure traveller with not a lot of spare change, may as well continue to save $500-1000 each and stick with TS. Same difference. Maybe
101 behramjee : LOL...you are blindly stating a fact without knowing the actual truth. FYI in 2012, out of the YYZ-HKG total market size of 293,000 pax, the market s
102 Carfield : I really don't think it is fair to compared Air Asia X with Air Canada. Air Asia X is a LCC (despite one can argue it possible has friendlier staffs a
103 flyyul : It's disappointing to see service standards drop in the industry - but as air travel becomes more commoditized this will become the norm. The biggest
104 DavidCA : The only existing route slated to go to Rouge is ATH. Rouge 767s are otherwise to operate new routes to VCE and EDI. As for the 77H, we're only talki
105 StarAC17 : As said earlier in this thread there is probably not enough business traffic on a lot of these Euro routes and the South American ones to warrant a h
106 questions : However, EK gives pax 34" pitch with 3-4-3 seating. Others give 31"-32". Is there a source for this fact? Just curious.
107 XT6Wagon : depends. I'm wider than a 17.2" Y class seat regardless of how fat or skinny I am. Shoulder width doesn't care about that.... And EK's 777 requires a
108 questions : Narrower seats and more pax abreast also mean your knees can't spread naturally. If you have big balls, it's REALLY uncomfortable flying with your le
109 Skydrol : Dang, even the all-economy seat 'charter' 747-100s Air Canada once operated were only 416 seats! And the 747s had 13 lavatories instead of just 6 as s
110 questions : Six lavs for 458 passengers? On a long haul flight? Gross. And when one goes out?
111 YVRLTN : Sorry, I am not in the center of the universe, I am in YVR - should have been clearer thats what I was referring to when this seat plan becomes the i
112 ytz : Forget the heads. Competition for overhead bins is going to be a contact sport!
113 Skydrol : While the overhead space will create chaos during boarding, the lack of lavatories is ignorant, irresponsible and unsafe. For safety, Air Canada (and
114 Post contains images AirbusA6 : It's a strange world where you end up with more room and/or a wider aisle on an A320 on a 2 hour hop than on a wide body doing 8-12 hour flights Unles
115 Post contains links abrelosojos : Amazing isn't it. When you have poor service and bad employee morale, no matter what you do, it turns negative. I can't believe the difference in the
116 LondonCity : There are still some 9-abreast B777 certainties like BA, JAL, CX, SQ and UA. But for how much longer ?
117 ElPistolero : Fair enough, but if they're connecting onto other flights, AC's pricing flexibility is still limited by how much or how little a partner airline is w
118 Post contains images flyyul : I'm sorry Abrelosojos. Did you want us to launch Whitehorse - Paris service? I would love to hear your views on our uninspiring network
119 AirCanada787 : In Y AC already has power ports, usually two for every three seats or when there are just groupings of two seats at every seat. Every seat also has a
120 9252fly : Looking at the seat map,I'll guess that each lavatory position has more than one. Typically it's at least two,or possibly four depending on the locat
121 Kaiarahi : If you go that way, become an Aeroplan member as well - it's a 'real' FF program that's much better than NZ's, with rewards/upgrades that you can act
122 StarAC17 : People have decided with their wallets that being cramped for 8 hours is worth saving $50 also if you hop on EK you have the same layout on a 77W and
123 ElPistolero : The comparison with EK is a bit odd. Last I heard, they have 33"+ legroom in Y to compensate for seat width. AC has actually reduced its seat pitch.
124 gingersnap : Seems AC are going to need bigger aircraft. I doubt a VLA order is on the cards however.
125 ElPistolero : The comparison with EK is a bit odd. Last I heard, they have 33"+ legroom in Y to compensate for seat width. AC has actually reduced its seat pitch.
126 StarAC17 : Flight length has nothing to do with price its all about supply and demand at the end of the day and what the market can support. In terms of flights
127 Post contains links flyboy22 : Glad to see this change to AC's 77W's. The herringbone layout of the Executive First cabin was a nuisance, especially when trying to chat with another
128 ElPistolero : I don't think airport taxes explain it all away. It's not that airlines aren't taking it on Canada - it's more that they have to use their resources
129 ytz : AC's way of ensuring that elites will pay to play aerolotto on 77H routes. No more booking Flex fares to get an upgrade. PE fares will now be the min
130 ytz : This BS gets thrown out everytime to defend companies from Air Canada to the Robellus telecom oligopoly. It's nonsense. Canada may have a small popul
131 StarAC17 : If you look at their bottom lines, really well. Also the free market is the reason that the telecommunications industry in Canada is overpriced as th
132 yyz717 : As Mark (flyyul) said, the industry is being commoditized. There is really no such thing a full service carrier anymore, nor such a thing as an LCC.
133 Post contains links ytz : Have you actually flown EK? They had seatback IFE nearly a decade and a half before AC. Their food and drinks are top notch. I haven't flown them in
134 ytz : You're losing credibility. Canada has a free market for telecom? Why is it that the government won't allow 100% foreign owned telecom operators in he
135 rwy04lga : Is there a site or chart that we could see and compare?
136 Post contains images StarAC17 : Fair point but that also goes both ways, does the UK and the US allow our companies to operate there? Let them in on the condition that our companies
137 LanPeru : I LOVE the honesty here. It's so true. LOL. I am big but not so big that I spill into your seat or that I need an extension... I am about the same si
138 Viscount724 : You can't compare Australia with Canada due to the very different geography. To go anywhere from Australia you have to fly. There's nothing comparabl
139 pnwtraveler : Wow. A lot of discussion for 5 aircraft. Clearly seems that these are for high volume lower yield routes that are not long distance but are too valuab
140 DavidCA : Who cares? Maybe people who think that employers here Canada should be able to discriminate based on age, gender, attractiveness etc the way Emirates
141 anrec80 : It's because their 77L doesn't have 10-abreast yet. Let's see if this stands once they actually put 10-abreast into 77L on like 15 hr flight.
142 chrisa330 : The 10 abreast config is not making it's way into the rest of the fleet. It's meant for specific markets only.
143 Post contains links and images ElPistolero : A pleasant side effect for companies operating in oligopoly situations. It would take quite some doing for them not to be profitable. In any event, C
144 ElPistolero : If AC goes 3-3-3 on the 787 (and they have explicitly stated that they are considering it), then its only a matter of time before this config makes i
145 yyz717 : Sounds democratic and peaceful/friendly, but EK is based in a country with some of the world's worst human rights abuses: endemic discrimination agai
146 Skydrol : That may be the case, for now... but the concern is it will likely set a precedent. And while a few have commented 6 lavs for 400 passengers would be
147 na : I think the fact that the 777 is so easily possible to be turned into the tightest sardine can is a major factor for some airlines when deciding to bu
148 nrt1011 : Good news to hear the AC 77L's will stay 3-3-3, I travel the YYZ-SYD route often and I sure would not like to be 10 abreast on the YVR-SYD leg. I assu
149 ElPistolero : Compared to the alternatives on the route (particularly the ones who can't seem to get daily frequencies to one city four years in), the products in
150 Kaiarahi : You can keep repeating this all you like, but international relations and negotiations (like Cabinet meetings) are not going to be conducted in publi
151 Post contains links ElPistolero : It was in response to a demand to prove that TK and ET had asked for more frequencies, not a standalone post in itself. I simply pointed out that it
152 longhauler : It's funny you should say this, as I keep seeing the same people repeating the same thing over and over, as if a discussion on here is going to chang
153 chrisa330 : Exactly. The seatmap for the new config doesn't have the same detail as with other fleet types. With the exception of the lavs at the very back, each
154 ElPistolero : It isn't as tangential as you think. AC takes out a high density 777. This is done supposedly to compete with high density carriers like TS, who also
155 longhauler : That is what I find confusing with that "cartoon" posted. Behind the cockpit, the lav is blue, the galley is white, between rows 7 and 12, it is reve
156 chrisa330 : On the fleetmap pages, the 'legend' says that blue = lavs which is what I was basing my count on. But you're right - it's not completely clear. Wonder
157 longhauler : Actually, I think the biggest precursor to a 3-3-3 B787, is that it seems that it is how most are being delivered. Honestly, with the vast majority o
158 ElPistolero : My take on this, as I imagine that of many, is that once you put 3-3-3 on 787s, some of which will likely be used for ULH, its only a matter of time
159 Kaiarahi : Yeah, but we're almost 6 months out from introduction. The price on any given day closer to the flight will be whatever is right to fill the plane -
160 multimark : Agreed. I'll be seeking out other carriers and routes to avoid these steerage birds. AC's brand management is a disaster. You're absolutely right, is
161 pnwtraveler : I agree please not again!. Why does any thread about AC become this tiresome over and over and over again argument, with the same people fanning the
162 ytz : Such ridiculous OT trolling. But I'll indulge you because I find such ridiculous screed deserves to be countered. As a serving member of the CF I act
163 Viscount724 : LH has nothing comparable to a cramped 10-abreast EK/EY 777. And many people much prefer LH's consistent and reliable service to the often very incon
164 JoeCanuck : From a business standpoint, this totally makes sense. The effect on reputation to an airline's bottom line is often overblown. The worst thing that ha
165 ytz : LHR, GIG, GRU, SCL and maybe EZE, if I had to guess. FRA will depend on what LH decides the service standard will be. We all know that AC is LH's b**
166 ytz : Yeah. But you only get that for 2-3 hours DXB-BOM/DEL, etc. Not 8-10. From
167 yyz717 : That is just one of many active AC lobbying efforts going on at any one point in time. There are many others. Not EVERYTHING AC does or or lobbies ab
168 Viscount724 : I have no reason to fly those carriers but I know many people who have flown them extensively and have stopped based on their inconsistent service. I
169 Post contains images lightsaber : Exactly! That is an economic point I make that then is ignored. I fly far more often today than before. Partially as airfare is no longer $1,400 for
170 DavidCA : Again, who cares? If someone is stupid enough or shallow enough to choose an airline based on whether the age of their F/A is likely to be 22 or 47 t
171 Post contains images sunrisevalley : The standard per passenger with baggage is 210lb so the reduction in cargo capacity would be about 22900lb. But who is counting
172 aircanada014 : Did you forget AC A330 still gives you 31-33 in seat pitch with 18in width seat as well. how about 77L with 18in seat width with 32 in pitch..and sim
173 flyyul : Where do you come up with this stuff? We all know or you just know - because you somehow know better than us?
174 ytz : Again. If it's low-yielding and so irrelevant, why is AC lobbying so hard. You had the government going to bat for AC and giving up our only airhead
175 abrelosojos : = I would want you to actually be bold to try new things and drop old ones. Get new blood into the shop, poach from WS, shake things up. All the stuf
176 DavidCA : Never said that. Don't put words in my mouth. What I suggested is that if they believe that an employer should, under law, be able to discriminate ba
177 CXB77L : You wouldn't fly on a 777 even if it was 9-across anyway, so what's your point? The overall percentage of travellers who choose flights based on airc
178 ytz : Surely, since you are not a hypocrite, you have an issue when Moxies and Hooters discriminate based on age, gender and appearance right? Diito for al
179 aircanada014 : That depends on AC and the B787 at least they are still around for awhile so even if no upgrades the seat pitch and width won't change a bit unless t
180 Post contains images AustrianZRH : LH 346 seat width: 17.0 in LH 346 seat pitch: 31.0 in EK 77W seat width: 17.0 in EK 77W seat pitch: 34.0 in Which one is more cramped? Btw, I prefer
181 ElPistolero : I don't know how reliable seatguru is but here are the stats from there: LH A380 width:17.0 LH A380 pitch: 31.0 EK A380 width:18.0 EK A380 pitch: 32-
182 longhauler : I have always had my suspicions of seatguru, as often I have notified them of errors, (even sending pictures) only to be ignored ... so I just assume
183 ElPistolero : LH's website doesn't help with clarity: "On long-haul routes a seat cushion width of over 40 cm, as well as the individually adjustable headrests on e
184 behramjee : Since 5 B77Ws are being reconfigured and already one aircraft going to be dedicated for YUL-CDG, the other 4, I would suggest should be: YVR-HKG for w
185 UALWN : According to seatguru, SQ A380's seat width is 19.0". I find it hard to believe that LH''s A380 seats are two full inches narrower than those of SQ,
186 Viscount724 : I ignore SeatGuru data of that type. Seat width can be measured various ways (between armrests, including armrests, including/excluding the gap betwe
187 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Ahh.....but all of those go against received wisdom on this boards. For such a heavily configured 77H YYZ route to work, a stop in Japan or South Kor
188 Post contains links behramjee : no i wrote YVR-MNL not
189 Post contains images Mikey86 : All it comes down to these days is profitability - which is fair enough. If an airline can do this with keeping their PAX loads up there they will. J
190 DavidCA : I'm defending Canadian law which rightly prohibits discrimination on the basis of age, sex, race, religion, sexual orientation etc etc. Those values
191 Post contains images Devilfish : Yes, sorry...my brain is a bit slow on the uptake today. I was thinking that AC would get a lot of the MNL bound passengers between YYZ and YVR thus
192 flyyul : AC will have more than 6 LAVs on the 77H - for the record...
193 ElPistolero : Not really sure what the point of your post is, since it doesn't address anything. The subject of discussion is as follows J/Y+: 36/24, 3 lavs (1 lav
194 Post contains images Skydrol : I believe the concern from the original poster was only 6 lavs for 398 Y passengers. Whether there are one, two, or four additional lavs for J is irr
195 StarAC17 : Not happening non-stop with this config, it would put the plane very overweight with the amount of fuel needed to pull that off. These ones are toss
196 ytz : Perhaps you should start defending the law by standing up for its strictest applications at home. I've given you several examples on where to start.
197 DavidCA : No thanks. No point to trying to discuss it with someone who'd make a claim such as: Qantas, El Al, British Airways, Avianca, Aerolineas Argentinas,
198 ytz : Doesn't this come down to a cargo load decision really? I mean when the routes get into very long haul/ultra long haul territory? I think this config
199 longhauler : Of those routes, other than YUL-CDG which has been announced, the only other route I could imagine is YYZ-CDG, as they are competing with TS and AF.
200 ytz : Why not? It's triangular competition, in my books. It's as much about BA, as it is about TS. My speculation, of course. But I don't see why not. Is t
201 9252fly : Thin low-yield seasonal markets.
202 behramjee : I doubt it as as Etihad operates a 412 seater B77W on AUH-ORD without any payload problems and that is a 14 hour 45 minute flight (I've flown on it)
203 longhauler : A lot of it has to do with the employee contracts. Presently, Rouge can only fly B767s and A319s. And, Rouge is starting with only 2 B767s, when as w
204 manny : The 10 abreast seating is only a problem for people on aviation forums. The general public does not notice these things. They might not even know what
205 ytz : Not to regurgitate the entire above discussion. But while Joe Q. Public may not know the immediate difference between 9 and 10 seats in his row, he m
206 yyz717 : Perhaps, but on a low yield route, AC is not out to impress necessarily. Even if the "average" (read occasional) longhaul AC flier switched immediate
207 sankaps : Didn't BA configure some 777s for the Caribbean markets as 10-abreast at one time, only to revert to 9-abreast after significant negative customer fe
208 ytz : Right. But your slightly above average corporate traveler who flies often enough in Y, but less than enough to get him status, most certainly wil. An
209 Viscount724 : Disagree. The 7-abreast Rouge 763s will be much better than the 10-abreast 77Ws. And the cabin experience has other differences. Alcoholic drinks are
210 ytz : What he really means to say is that Canadians won't notice. And he may well be right about that. Canadians don't complain about paying higher airfare
211 behramjee : another example i.e. Air France uses their 468 seater B77Ws on BKK-CDG which is a 12 hour 20 minute flight in itself
212 longhauler : And yet Air Transat owes its very existence to the fact that people either don't notice, don't care or don't remember. We have all heard Air Transat
213 Viscount724 : Many carriers use 31 inch pitch in Y for flights much longer than 8 hours. The new lightweight, thin-back seats on the AC high-density 77Ws wil llike
214 Post contains links skipness1E : Sorry is this right? http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Canada/ B77W / B77L Pitch 32.0 / Width 18.5 B763 Standard Pitch 31-32 Width 17.83 B763 Leisu
215 Viscount724 : AC A330-300s Y class pitch varies from 31" to 33" as follows (per AC website seat map): All outboard rows 32" except 31" rows 26-30 and 42-51. Center
216 ElPistolero : And just today, I saw a full page spread of AC being N. America's only four star international airline ( thought that was pretty funny - I haven't se
217 Viscount724 : Not always. LX replaced all their narrowbody (A319/320/321 and Avro RJ100) seats with new Recaro lightweight, thin-back seats a few years ago, reduci
218 ElPistolero : Well, I suppose the question then is: would you fancy sitting in those seats for a 6hr + flight? Because that seems to be the way these 31" longhaul
219 Skydrol : And what makes the thin-back seats even worse, is if they also contain IFE electronics and TV for the passenger behind. They might not be too bad if
220 Post contains links ytz : This. Oh well. AC seems determined to rush headlong to that destiny too. I just booked my tix to my cousin's wedding in India. TK Comfort Class http:
221 ytz : For some reason, a.net is being funny with the AC link. Anyway, airlinemeals.net (what's not on the internet these days?) is quite interesting too for
222 Viscount724 : If they can sell YUL-CDG for $1,000, why should they not do so? Shouldn't they be trying to maximize their revenue and profits? Doing anything else i
223 ElPistolero : I paid $1385 for VS Y+ LHR-DEL in December peak. In other words, that $1300 fare represents incredibly poor value-for-money. As such, I agree that if
224 ytz : I was referring to Y+. Sad that you think $2000 for YUL-CDG is both feasible and acceptable for such a trip. Only shows how poorly Canadians are serv
225 anrec80 : Sorry for being a bit cynical here. If we look at our Southern neighbors, we'll see the likes of EK and EY roam pretty much anywhere they feel like a
226 StarAC17 : There are no restrictions in terms of capacity on YUL-CDG and it has 4 carriers operating it IIRC. There is an Openskies agreement with the EU, you m
227 SA7700 : This thread has run its course, filled with constant off-topic posts. It will now be locked for further contributions. Any posts added after the threa
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