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JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved  
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 15123 times:

The Port Authority yesterday approved phase II of the Terminal 4 expansion. Phase II will add 11 regional jet gates to the end of concourse B, the concourse DL is currently expanding. There were renderings previously released back when the project was first announced showing the Phase II expansion. It also officially eliminates the walkway from T-4 to T-2, the justification being that with the Regional operation moving to T-4 they would no longer be the need for the walkway. T-3 is going to be torn down, no change, and T-2 will carry on with a new shuttle bus connecting T-2 to T-4 airside.

http://www.panynj.gov/corporate-info...n/pdf/board_minutes_feb_6_2013.pdf


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3627 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 15076 times:

Shocked.

Obviously Delta had some obligations to meet that were in limbo when they scrapped the connector...so they just went ahead with phase 2 of 3 of moving all its operations to T4, thus relieving them of the connector obligaton.

Phase 3...the extension of Concourse A to accomodate DLs non RJ domestic operation is still a few years away.

But as we saw in the original drawing, there is a plan...and Delta, JFKIAT, and the PANYNJ seem to be seeing it out.


Same Docket: On another note, several years ago they discussed a ramp from the Palisades to the Lower Level of the George Washington Bridge. Quite a shame they are rebuilding a flawed ramp design.


User currently offlinecokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1190 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 15070 times:



User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3309 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 14814 times:
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That'll be quite a walk if you're connecting from T2 to a regional flight in T4...

Is the connector between the terminals airside or landside?

TIS



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User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 14772 times:

The connector you see in the rendering is the one that was cancelled. Shuttle buses will be used for T4-T2 connections (airside).

[Edited 2013-02-07 06:10:18]

User currently onlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4069 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14539 times:

Is there going to be a bus from T4 check-in to the new regional gates? It is a 0.75 mile walk.


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User currently onlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14493 times:

Will T2 be used for certain flights, eg, transcon, ATL?

Is the eventual plan for DL to take over all of T4 and move T4 Concourse A airlines into an expanded T1 (ie, eventual demolition of T2 also)?


User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3627 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14457 times:

To answer both your questions...yes and yes.

I guess from this..T2 will revert to all mainline domestic.

With the RJs moving to T4 DL will actually gain 3 mainline gates at T2.


User currently offlinewilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14429 times:

I see DL moving out of T2 and it being demolished to make room for an expanded T1. Hate to see T3 go, but looking at the pic I see why.

User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14342 times:

Quoting questions (Reply 6):
Is the eventual plan for DL to take over all of T4 and move T4 Concourse A airlines into an expanded T1 (ie, eventual demolition of T2 also)?

IMO the true ultimate plan is for DL to buy B6 and connect Terminals 4 & 5.


User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3008 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 14330 times:

Quoting questions (Reply 6):
Will T2 be used for certain flights, eg, transcon, ATL?

Probably mainline domestic, but I would guess not transcon, now that they are starting to use international aircraft (767s and 757s with Business Elite) to LAX and SFO. I'd expect those flights to be at T4, but who knows.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 14127 times:

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 10):
but I would guess not transcon

You are correct, all of DL's JFK - LAX, SFO, SEA transcon flights will be departing from T4.

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1757

This is great news, glad to see the port authority and DL moving onto phase II so quickly. Its going to cost DL $175mil for 11 RJ gates and a bus station, not a bad amount of money for preferential use of the gates and the ease of connections to the rest of international operation DL will be running out of T4.

Does anybody know the timeline for the completion of phase II?

[Edited 2013-02-07 08:26:45]

[Edited 2013-02-07 08:28:55]

User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4973 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 14098 times:
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Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 11):
for 9 RJ gates

Believe it will be 11 gates.


User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14056 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 12):

Thank you for the correction, for some reason I had 9 stuck in my head.

Are 11 gates going to be enough for the entire RJ operation? I counted 17 RJ stands at the end of T2 currently available for use.


User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3008 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14022 times:

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 11):
You are correct, all of DL's JFK - LAX, SFO, SEA transcon flights will be departing from T4.

Thanks for the confirmation--didn't realize that had been announced officially.

Quoting william (Reply 8):
I see DL moving out of T2 and it being demolished to make room for an expanded T1. Hate to see T3 go, but looking at the pic I see why.

I agree, that would make sense in the long term. The expanded T1 could then accommodate some of the international airlines displaced from T4.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14023 times:

Rather than keep T2, why doesn't DL add another "finger" off of T4 concourse B (in the direction of where T2/3 are now)? Seems that having everything in one, state of the art terminal is preferable to two terminals connected by a bus. Would simplify connections and give everyone an equally good experience.

User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3008 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13986 times:

Quoting rwsea (Reply 15):
Seems that having everything in one, state of the art terminal is preferable to two terminals connected by a bus. Would simplify connections and give everyone an equally good experience.

Absolutely, and I think DL consolidating in T4 is definitely where things are headed--it just can't happen overnight. Phase II, moving the RJ gates to T4, is another good step in the right direction. Phase III, with the expansion of Concourse A, will allow DL to leave T2.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 1116 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13957 times:

How long does this make Concourse B? Will it be as long as Concourse D in Miami?

User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4973 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13903 times:
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Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 13):
Thank you for the correction, for some reason I had 9 stuck in my head

You were probably thinking of the 9 gates that have been added to Concourse B as part of the Phase 1 expansion (opening in May)!


User currently offlinecokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1190 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 13332 times:

Theoretically could all of SkyTeam fit in a phase 3 Terminal 4 and anyone one left be regulated to
Terminal 1 and 2 ? If so, what are the chances Delta/Sky Team just utilize Term 4?


User currently offlinebizjet From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 13315 times:

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 13):
Are 11 gates going to be enough for the entire RJ operation? I counted 17 RJ stands at the end of T2 currently available for use.

I was wondering that too. I believe Gate 23/25 at T2 has 17 RJ stands as you say, plus Gate 18 in the T3 saucer is used for RJs.

However, I bet 11 gates at the new T4 extension is sufficient because:

1) RJ operations are down substantially at JFK following the LGA ramp-up. I don't have the exact numbers, but DL pulled down JFK RJ flying as it ramped up the LGA schedule. So they don't need as many JFK RJ gates as they did at their peak. I don't think they're using all the RJ stands now even at peak times.

2) I've always noticed RJs sitting on the T2 stands for a long time, whether as spares or to allow better scheduling to optimize connectivity. Worse case scenario, spares and planes with an extended sit could move off the gate to a nearby hardstand.


User currently offlinebizjet From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 13241 times:

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 17):
How long does this make Concourse B? Will it be as long as Concourse D in Miami?

Headhouse to the end of the RJ extension will be right around 0.5 mi.

I think Concourse D in MIA is closer to a mile.


User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2127 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 13247 times:

Looking at all those Sky Team Airlines at T1 such as Korean Air, Aero Mexico, Aeroflot, Alitalia and Air France these should eventually move to T4 and SWISS and Singapore Airlines should move to T1. As on other airports also at JFK the Terminals should start ot be organized on Alliance level.

User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 13061 times:

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 22):

AF and KE are part of the T1 group that owns T1, don't expect them to move any time soon (LH and JL are the other two airlines that are part of the group).


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5373 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 11813 times:

I'm surprised by this news. I thought that the original estimates didn't have go-ahead on phase II until near the end of this decade.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 5):
Is there going to be a bus from T4 check-in to the new regional gates? It is a 0.75 mile walk.

I don't think that they ever mentioned a bus service to the regional gates, just the bus connecting T2 and T4. I'd wager that unless the elites in New York pitch a fit, they won't and will just make everyone walk/use the moving walkways.

Quoting rwsea (Reply 15):
Rather than keep T2, why doesn't DL add another "finger" off of T4 concourse B (in the direction of where T2/3 are now)? Seems that having everything in one, state of the art terminal is preferable to two terminals connected by a bus. Would simplify connections and give everyone an equally good experience.

I don't know if you remember, but that was the original intent way back when DL first discussed a new JFK terminal pre-9/11. T3 and T2 were going to be torn down to make way for an additional concourse off of T4. I suppose it's always possible for them to revisit that idea, but I doubt that would happen in the near future.



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25 Deltal1011man : will also depend on how big T4A is and if they could get all the other T4 carriers out. I think that is a bit longer. Also pretty sure the Delta term
26 Post contains images questions : I don't remember this. Do you have a photo or link to the plan? This is the one I have from the Leo Mullin days.
27 FoxBravo : I agree. Those regional flights carry more connecting traffic than O&D. Most NY pax (especially elites) going to any of those regional destinatio
28 ZBA2CGX : Does anyone have pictures or layouts of how the extension off of T4 into the former T2 space was suppose to look like? thanks, probably would have ha
29 jfklganyc : Actually, that one you have there was a better, more expensive job. Notice the headhouse was actually extended to accomodate thousands of new passenge
30 bizjet : I think the headhouse structure itself is plenty big. They did make several critical, expensive improvements: - Building an expanded, centralized sec
31 apodino : Are the RJ gates going to be capable of segregating passengers so arrival could be routed into the FIS? I ask this because DL is launching YQB in May,
32 LXA340 : What I don't understand from where will the extra space be taken for imigration counters and baggage belts?
33 phatfarmlines : Gate 19 in T2, the main gate to catch the airside buses to T3/T4, also doubles as a bus gate for hardstand RJ flights during the evening rush.
34 bizjet : Where are the RJ hardstands located?
35 questions : Will phase one T4 changes open at one time in May or will it open in phases? For example will updates to the lobby, check-in, security be completed pr
36 PIEAvantiP180 : Look at the picture in reply 2, in the upper left corner you can see T1 and T2. At the end of T2 you can see the RJ stands.
37 bizjet : Sorry for being unclear. Yes, those are the RJ hardstands accessible by walkways from Gates 23 / 25. The above poster was talking about using a bus i
38 PIEAvantiP180 : I believe he is taking about the RJ hard stands on the corner of T3 and taxiway LL.
39 kaitak744 : Hey!!!!! Where did you get that? I made that plan on photoshop about 3 years ago. That is my concept. Long before anything by Delta was put out.
40 questions : I thought that was the plan from Delta's October 2000 announcement. Apologies to all for the bad info. Does anyone have the photo that shows the plan
41 STT757 : I used to have the New York Times Article cut out that had a rendering. If you look it must be online somewhere.
42 Post contains links panamair : Official press release about the new T4 extension Phase II: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-...ines-port-authority-160000145.html
43 william : It mentions the addition of dual taxiways, I thought JFK had dual taxiways already.
44 OA412 : I believe that's one that someone on this site designed as a possibility. The Leo Mullin plan had T2 being expanded a bit to a sort of modified L-sha
45 mayor : Ok.....from this rendering, which includes the addition of phase II, I assume that the longer concourse on T-4 is Concourse "A"? Except for the fligh
46 FoxBravo : No, the concourses are other way around. The newly expanded one (on the left in the rendering posted by cokepopper in reply #2), which will have the
47 mayor : Ok....thanks for the clarification. I guess I'm used to a more logical designation of the concourses, i.e. first one you come to would be "A", next "
48 MaverickM11 : Billions dropped on JFK and a zillion shuttle busses. Ooook. I understand they're making lemonade out of lemons but that was the best solution?
49 FoxBravo : That's pretty much how it is for passengers using T4--after checking in, the A concourse is to your left and the B concourse is to your right. Like r
50 PIEAvantiP180 : For all those complaining that concourse B was narrow, the extension will be 20 feet wider then the original part of the concourse. This I'm sure will
51 bizjet : My questions, unanswered by the press release: 1) When will the new RJ addition of Concourse B open? 2) Will it be ground-level or at the same height
52 Post contains images mayor : Well, sure......for people that are used to using T-4 at JFK or those that originate there.......then there are those of us that aren't familiar with
53 Post contains links and images mayor : Ok......here's the rendering after Phase II without any improvements done to Concourse "A"........So, in what phase is the extension done on A? Ok....
54 airliner371 : That is phase 1 minus the walkway.[Edited 2013-02-11 17:01:20]
55 jetlanta : The money saved on not building the bridge was used to help pay for Phase 2. Like others have said, there won't be a ton of connecting folks between
56 Post contains images questions : Here it is.
57 bizjet : Very interesting! Only took 15 years to get it done... (Also interesting that the T5 and T8 projects have come and gone since then.)
58 mayor : As has Leo and his gang.
59 panamair : Scheduled for Summer 2015.
60 STT757 : Going back in time there's also another rendering I had cut out of the New York Times that was of the original T-5 plan, it's the same one that was bu
61 jfklganyc : I would love to see that if you have it. That second concourse will finally be built out with B6s T5i. Amazing how far the facility will go into the
62 FoxBravo : It's a fair question--didn't mean to sound snarky! That rendering is only Phase I. Except for the long, narrow walkway to T2, which as noted above wi
63 panamair : Do you know which three will not be Delta-exclusive gates? Also, do you know the carriers that will be using these three? Today's Concourse B non-Sky
64 Post contains links FoxBravo : Sorry, I don't, but I would assume some or all of the ones currently there, as you mentioned. KL also uses the B gates for their 2 daily flights, but
65 Post contains links FoxBravo : Just to help everyone visualize what Phase II will really look like (as currently envisioned, without the connector to T2), Delta has posted a new ren
66 WesternA318 : God damn...this is good news, one step closer to destroying the god-awful WorldPort eyesore brick by pigeon poop soaked brick...I cant wait till I act
67 Post contains images FoxBravo : LOL. I've always thought there's something poetic about an airport terminal infested by birds. Unhygienic perhaps, but still poetic.
68 PIEAvantiP180 : I wonder why its going to take them two years to build 75,000 square feet when it took them about the same amount of time to build 500,000 square fee
69 jfklganyc : Money. They're phasing it out slowly. They can build as fast or slow as they want
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