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How (Un)Profitable Really Is Economy Class?  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7701 posts, RR: 21
Posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 16220 times:
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Over the years I have read quite a lot of comments along the lines of how first and business is where the real money is made by many carriers, and yet of course most of the plane tends to be devoted to economy. Is it really the case that economy makes so little money? Of course some airlines take it to the other extreme such as a Ryanair, making large profits from a super-economy type service.

Are there any large carriers who literally make almost no profit from economy? Which airlines make the most from this class?

Grateful for any view and info.


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61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 16119 times:

I think WN and FR would strongly disagree with this notion  

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25135 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 16087 times:

If you look at the average economy fare numbers, one can see that such passengers are indeed on the face value carried at a loss, while things like the premium passenger and cargo are needed to help close the gap and reach profitability.

For example I just had someone return to LA from DC with a round trip fare of $278. That is significantly below the airlines cost of providing that seat. The revenue on that ticket is barely 6 cents/mile, while US airlines seat mile cost are closer to 11-12 cents/mile range, and higher when fuel rises.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 16048 times:

I often go with Norwegian, 186 seats all economy, for a 4 hour flight people do shop inboard, food, drinks, snacks and later some other items. This sale must bring a good part of the profit?

User currently offlinejonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 673 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 16027 times:

There has to be a balance.

Contrary to what many people on this forum believe, economy class can be very profitable with the right cost structure or the right fare paid. WN, FR, U2 (and others) make money from economy due to their cost structure. They have less things to pay for on the flight. Now another example would be AA for example charging $600 for an economy ticket on MIA-SFO. That seat definitely generates profit for the airline and if enough seats are sold for a higher price that covers its cost it can be profitable. Obviously of course selling one seat for $600 and the rest for $300 isn't the same but if the route has a high average fare in economy, it probably generates a profit.

The problem is that full service airlines charge below what is needed to make economy profitable when they compete with each other. So in this case economy becomes less profitable. Business class and first class don't see this because they usually don't get to a level where their fare becomes unprofitable.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25135 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15889 times:

Quoting jonathanxxxx (Reply 4):
economy class can be very profitable with the right cost structure

Its the simple yet elusive RASM versus CASM mix.

With the right cost, in theory any fare can be profitable.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7701 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15774 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
RASM

What is that?



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User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15772 times:

Clealy airlines fly all coach layouts and are some of the most consistantly profitable so i wouldnt say coach is unprofitable as a statement. It is just unprofitable on certain routes and for certain airlines i think aka like JFK-LHR for a few airlines or JFK-LAX for a few airlines like United P.S.maybe where the coach seats just fill space and allow more frequenecy etc etc but in theory coach should be profitable on most routes and most airlines

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25135 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15725 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 6):
What is that?

RASM = Revenue per Available Seat Mile

CASM = Cost per Available Seat Mile

American Airlines has a summary of basic industry measurements on their website which might be usefull.

http://www.aa.com/i18n/amrcorp/corpo...Information/facts/measurements.jsp

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1874 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15708 times:

This is an excellent topic. KLM used to operate a MD-11 between AMS-HYD. Economy class was always full. Cancelled flight because not much business class load. LH used to operate a A332 between FRA-HYD. Same scenario economy full, not much business class. Flight gets cancelled.

Is it impossible for a legacy carrier to a route with predominently economy seats. They can have reasonable ticket price rather than cutting the route.

Never understood the logic behind dependency on premium traffic.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15612 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
If you look at the average economy fare numbers, one can see that such passengers are indeed on the face value carried at a loss, while things like the premium passenger and cargo are needed to help close the gap and reach profitability.

Yet, premium travel does not mean C/J as these fares are heavily discounted as well (and sometimes the Y-class fares are higher than C/J-class fares). My opinion is that premium traveler shouldn't be equal to F, C or J class pax but also to the full fare paying Y class and exclude those heavily discounted C/J class pax.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7701 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15569 times:
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Quoting phxa340 (Reply 1):
I think WN and FR would strongly disagree with this notion

I mentioned FR and the like, and really my focus here is on the legacies and more traditional airlines, who have traditionally been the subject of the comments I referred to.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):

RASM = Revenue per Available Seat Mile

CASM = Cost per Available Seat Mile

Thanks. CASM I knew, but RASM I suppose I should have guessed if I'd thought about it a bit longer.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 9):
Never understood the logic behind dependency on premium traffic.

Exactly, me neither.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13005 posts, RR: 100
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 15418 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
If you look at the average economy fare numbers, one can see that such passengers are indeed on the face value carried at a loss, while things like the premium passenger and cargo are needed to help close the gap and reach profitability.

Naturally the 'teaser fares' are loss leaders. But as others have noted, full fare Y is at a profit!

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 9):
This is an excellent topic. KLM used to operate a MD-11 between AMS-HYD. Economy class was always full. Cancelled flight because not much business class load.

But the cost of accommodating the passengers... That would be a tough call as HYD is notoriously low premium as are many other Indian cities.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 9):
Never understood the logic behind dependency on premium traffic.

Its simple. A well rested employee is far more productive. Often the cost of business class is nothing versus a day (or so) of lost productivity. So companies pay. The big seats have a lower load factor (fraction of seats sold) usually so the price per square meter of floor space must be higher as well as a premium for profit. The difference in sleep quality is night and day.

This is why shorter routes often have fewer premium seats and longer more. If one won't pay... connect. But those people are quite willing to do odd itineraries. (A friend did LAX-JFK-CDG-DXB-HYD and back as that routing saved him significant cash in February 2007.)

Lightsaber



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User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 15339 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
If you look at the average economy fare numbers, one can see that such passengers are indeed on the face value carried at a loss, while things like the premium passenger and cargo are needed to help close the gap and reach profitability.

If this is true, why do we not see airlines dropping economy? Why do we see so few business only flights. We certainly shouldn't see airlines ordering larger and larger planes.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25135 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 15247 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
Naturally the 'teaser fares' are loss leaders. But as others have noted, full fare Y is at a profit!

Sure but from things like DOT/IATA/BSP statistics you can derive out the average fares and see they are still often way below cost.

Legacy carriers with higher cost bases often no matter what will simply not earn a profit on the economy cabin, and are heavily reliant on the front end.
A good clue to this is the desire by US carries to increase their overseas exposures where premium fares sell. AA, DL and UA have made mention of desire for 50/50 splits in international versus domestic ASM exposure when network adjustments are all said and done. Along with this they are all spending like crazy improving their offerings to chase after that top segment passenger.

Quoting cmf (Reply 13):
If this is true, why do we not see airlines dropping economy? Why do we see so few business only flights. We certainly shouldn't see airlines ordering larger and larger planes.

Very simple, its the math.

For legacy airlines carrying around the economy passenger is a necessary evil. Yes its unlikely they provide any profit, but they are needed to provide the underlying revenue and traffic contribution to justify the existence of the flight to begin with.
Ultimately they essentially help defray (dilute on ASM basis) the cost. We know an all premium product does not work either as there are so few routes that can sustain the volume of premium demand to support such standalone flights.

This math concept is the same by LCCs - they use high density cabins to beat their ASM cost basis down hopefully enough that the low revenue earned per passenger is enough to breakeven.

[Edited 2013-02-07 12:25:54]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1874 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14882 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
Its simple. A well rested employee is far more productive. Often the cost of business class is nothing versus a day (or so) of lost productivity. So companies pay. The big seats have a lower load factor (fraction of seats sold) usually so the price per square meter of floor space must be higher as well as a premium for profit. The difference in sleep quality is night and day.

This is why shorter routes often have fewer premium seats and longer more. If one won't pay... connect. But those people are quite willing to do odd itineraries. (A friend did LAX-JFK-CDG-DXB-HYD and back as that routing saved him significant cash in February 2007.)

There is no question about quality of First/Business class. Question is can a airline have a profitable route without depending on a large First/Business passengers.

Here are couple examples of A330-300
Lufthansa 3 class config

8 first class x $5,000 = 40,000
48 business class x $3,000 = 144,000
165 economy class x $1,000 = 165,000
-----------
$349,000

Compare to a 2 class config from QR

30 business class x $3,000 = 90,000
275 economy class x 1$,000 = 275,000
-----------
$365,000

From this actally QR config has more revenue. Cancelling routes quoting low premium traffic sounds like a lame excuse of legacy carriers who choose wrong seat layouts for their equipment.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25154 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14812 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 1):
I think WN and FR would strongly disagree with this notion

And WestJet has been very successful with only Y class, although they're introducing a Y+ product with a few rows at increased pitch.


User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14803 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
For example I just had someone return to LA from DC with a round trip fare of $278

I can't get from PHX-SLC RT for that price! Either DL or WN usually run around $0.25-$0.30/mile for that run, and that is a WGA, or LUT fare! So Y for that route is probably very profitable but on the other hand I just booked a SLC-AMS trip at less than $0.08/mile (excluding taxes/fees) so that's a money loser right there. But there will likely be people on that same flight paying 3 times my ticket price as they book later. All that proves is that individual route/flights are useless indicators of profitability in Y.....however, airlines need economy, there are just not enough people who can/will pay for premium cabins for an airline to survive. It's probably a reasonable bet that for a carrier with differing cabins that while economy might be break-even or tiny profit at best and the premium cabin has a large profit it is only the combination that makes it work. Obviously it is possible to survive on Y only (FR, EY, WN, B6 etc. etc.) but then they have none of the 'extras' associated with premium cabins to consider either.


User currently offlineglbltrvlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14803 times:

Arguing about revenue per seat and cost per seat is an interesting academic exercise, but the important number is the revenue per flight. What combination of seats and fares gives you the maximum revenue against the minimum cost? On some routes and in some aircraft, that could be all economy. On others it could involve business and first.

User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1714 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 14757 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
For legacy airlines carrying around the economy passenger is a necessary evil. Yes its unlikely they provide any profit, but they are needed to provide the underlying revenue and traffic contribution to justify the existence of the flight to begin with.

And some of us avoid flying on airlines which consider Y passengers as a necessary evil. Even a few posters on this forum have spoken thusly.



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User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5506 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 14576 times:

Wow... the level of disdain displayed by some here is just incredible....

Plain and simple, the economy passenger is the core of almost every airlines business and is the key to their survival and profitability.

First, to state it bluntly: Cargo is always one of the most profitable elements for an airline. And economy passengers are the equivalent of human cargo (as close as you can get at least). So apparently some here consider cargo to be a "necessary evil".

Second, economy passengers are tomorrows FF, Business, and F Class passengers and are the future market for any airline that offers higher classes of service. Without the economy passenger flying today, the airline would wither in the future as they have no loyal customers to grow and must rely on poaching other airlines customers and that just lead to downward spiraling wars. Only a few airlines are able to do this.

Third, some seem to think that all economy passengers travel at the lowest fares and that C/J/F class passengers always travel at full fare, when the truth is airlines have in place very good algorithms that limit the number of cheap fares and push economy passengers into higher fares and many higher class passengers are traveling at discounted rates and upgrades (which there is a good value to the airlines to get those passengers to expense those FF miles). Additionally, higher class passenger are a higher cost to the airline to service. From floor space in the aircraft, to the staffing per passenger, to the meals and other amenities required to satisfy these passengers versus the very low levels required for economy passengers.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 9):
This is an excellent topic. KLM used to operate a MD-11 between AMS-HYD. Economy class was always full. Cancelled flight because not much business class load. LH used to operate a A332 between FRA-HYD. Same scenario economy full, not much business class. Flight gets cancelled.

And though probably opposite of what you were trying to demonstrate, this shows the absolute value of the economy passenger. Like freight, the airlines can cancel the flight and the passenger just goes to the next available flight, they have very little recourse (especially if they have a bargain fare).

Economy passenger are among the most important passengers to an airline that serves them, at the very least they are equal in value to the higher service class passengers. Especially when you factor in their future value

Tugg

[Edited 2013-02-07 15:18:05]

[Edited 2013-02-07 15:18:30]


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User currently offlineirelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13578 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):

For legacy airlines carrying around the economy passenger is a necessary evil. Yes its unlikely they provide any profit, but they are needed to provide the underlying revenue and traffic contribution to justify the existence of the flight to begin with.
Ultimately they essentially help defray (dilute on ASM basis) the cost. We know an all premium product does not work either as there are so few routes that can sustain the volume of premium demand to support such standalone flights.

This math concept is the same by LCCs - they use high density cabins to beat their ASM cost basis down hopefully enough that the low revenue earned per passenger is enough to breakeven.

Then why gear your entire operation to carrying around (making up the percentages here) 80% of passengers at a loss and 20% of passengers for profit. Why not just get smaller planes with the same range and just fly that 20% around? In fact your profit is being cut into by the losses you are taking on the economy pax. With a smaller plane you have lower fixed cost, lower landing fees, less exposure to fuel prices (b/c you are buying less fuel) etc etc.

Let me put it another way. I know what the reasoning is, but it never makes any sense to me. If economy is only there to defray the cost of the people up front, then why do airlines not ask for small planes with long ranges and why do aircraft manufacturers build large planes that are designed to carry around a majority of their capacities at a loss?

-IR


User currently offlinedavidho1985 From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2012, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13224 times:
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I heard that for legacy carrier, Y is used to cover the cost of the flught,
while cargo, J & F are where the profits come from.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1874 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12937 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 20):
And though probably opposite of what you were trying to demonstrate, this shows the absolute value of the economy passenger. Like freight, the airlines can cancel the flight and the passenger just goes to the next available flight, they have very little recourse (especially if they have a bargain fare).

I meant to say the route was cancelled not flight.


User currently offlineJHwk From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12740 times:

Quoting irelayer (Reply 21):

It is a profit optimization game-- parametric equations get reduced to average cost per flight and average revenue per flight. If you just wanted to fly the "profitable" passengers on a 777 then you would be able to fit them in a Dash-8... and have much lower costs too! I doubt the revenue side of the equation would be the same though.


25 koruman : Sorry, but that is a lousy comparison. Try this one for size: Air New Zealand can fly one of two aircraft from Auckland to Los Angeles or hypothetica
26 Post contains images AeroWesty : The last ticket my employer bought for me was over 20¢ per mile, a midcon round-trip from PDX purchased two days ahead of travel, with no Saturday n
27 FURUREFA : Again, it really depends on the yield mix. I just went on a day-trip (BOS-LGA) for a recruiting event, and the poor company paid over $800 for my 368
28 Post contains images MD-90 : Clearly economy is unprofitable. That's why we see so many airlines flying BBJs of only premium passengers with the occasional 757/767 thrown in there
29 LHCVG : It's also in their operations and equipment. For WN at least, even though they have started going to the big airports like BOS and LGA over the outly
30 Post contains images CARST : I think these topics regarding profitability of Y class miss one important point every time they come up here on a.net. All LCCs with their Y-only cos
31 UALWN : It is a fact that while there are many examples of successful all-economy airlines, there isn't a single one of a successful all-business airline...
32 DTW2HYD : You are 100% correct. Rather than saying we don't have equipment to run a profitable route, legacy carriers keep saying route doesn't have enough pre
33 web500sjc : All buisness or first flights on the other hand are successfully...I wonder why. (Concorde, BA1, SQ21/22? Privatair?)
34 EL-AL : Well, why is the configuration in each and every airline is that the economy class is substantially bigger - has more seats - then all other classes,
35 yellowtail : It is truly about finding the right mix of revenue vs aircraft size for the route, and that is a real tough job.....is some cases the Y yields are ver
36 bond007 : Well, except history shows that the WN business model was/is 'better'. Of course, but it still comes down to simple RASM vs CASM. In theory anyway, l
37 DTW2HYD : Are you sure Privatair is All Business, They have 62Y-82Y seats on their BBJ2s. Here is an example of allowing Y to keep the route alive. In 2008, FR
38 UALWN : I don't think Concorde ever made any money for BA or AF. SQ21/22 will cease operations later this year, not a great example. Some Privatair flights h
39 UAL747DEN : It really all depends. I've worked in revenue management for some time and at my current airline we will look at the premium cabins and cargo before e
40 Fabo : Because people need to go to places that are smaller premium markets then whole aircraft. For example lets take PAR-LON, if it were a bit further, it
41 LHCVG : That was my point though - depending on your POV as a business, maybe/maybe not. I'm not just trying to argue here, but what I am saying is that econ
42 frmrCapCadet : WN, my airline of choice, does cherry pick which routes are sufficiently profitable. And are not shy about dropping routes which aren't. It does not g
43 Aesma : The average revenue per flight, aka the revenue per route. On some routes I'm sure many flights aren't profitable (every time you see a plane with le
44 JAGflyer : I have to question how J and F can bring in such significant revenue. It is very hard to believe the majority of people in premium classes will pay th
45 glbltrvlr : Agreed. Agreed in theory, but not in practice. At least lately I think there is very little tolerance for routes that don't stand alone. I don't ever
46 Post contains images LHCVG : Very true - the number of people who pay retail list prices for J and F is very small, especially those who do so out of their own pocket at their ow
47 AA94 : None of these are really good examples, for reasons noted above. Services like BA1 are niche markets, places where there is enough demand on both end
48 Post contains links Viscount724 : There are no remaining Privatair all-business operations. The last 2 were for LX ZRH-EWR and for KL AMS-IAH and those ended last year. All services c
49 bond007 : Not really. A business exists to make a profit. If they have high-costs, poor pricing structures, poor aircraft fleet choice, terrible customer servi
50 cloudboy : Part of the problem is that we try to arrive at the cost of a seat by dividing the overall cost of that flight by the shear number of seats on the pla
51 rwessel : Supply and demand is a pesky thing. And given how price sensitive consumers are, it's hard to charge even a tiny bit more than your competitors witho
52 Post contains images cmf : Sorry, but that does not foot. Premium demand does not exist because of economy. If only premium generate return then only offer premium. Simple as t
53 bond007 : OK, then let me rephrase it .... Set a price that at least covers cost and a margin. ...as long as market price covers your cost and provides a suita
54 rwessel : Again, what happens when your "minimum" price ends up $10 more than one of your competitors, and you are suddenly flying empty airplanes around? The
55 FlyingAY : However there other concerns than just route profitability of a single city pair. Take AY as an example: they lose money on most of the European rout
56 LJ : 100% correct. Apart from the corporate contracts the offers you get for F or J are sometimes realy good. EK is running a promotion in The Netherlands
57 cmf : Not a reason for cost plus pricing. I have said before that I think airlines, in general because there are exemptions, do a very poor job in maintain
58 frmrCapCadet : A Seattle paper decades ago had a story on airline pricing. The lead paragraph IIRC regarded the original United/Boeing mail flights , Seattle to Los
59 Post contains images bond007 : Well if you do not provide a better service, and your minimum price ends up $10 more than your competitor, then your business model is wrong - your c
60 cmf : Glad we agree that price is not set based on cost. Of course you need to understand your costs so you do not sell at loss. That said, there are reaso
61 rwessel : The problem is that under the best of circumstances airlines cannot react quickly to changes in demand. They’re largely stuck with the equipment th
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