Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (Part 1)  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 509 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 27532 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Dear All,

in order to consolidate the AA/US merger threads (and after input from users, which we highly appreciate) the moderators decided to start separate threads each discussing one aspect of the AA/US merger and its impact to both the industry and the two airlines involved.

Please continue discussing this hot news in their individual official threads:

AA/US Merger Impact: Fleet
AA/US Merger Impact: Hubs (THIS THREAD ONLY)
AA/US Merger Impact: Employees
AA/US Merger Impact: HQ
AA/US Merger Impact: Livery
AA/US Merger Impact: Unions
AA/US Merger Impact: Routes
AA/US Merger Impact: Inflight Service

Enjoy & have a nice weekend!

The Airliners.net Moderator crew


Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
274 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineapjung From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 27577 times:

Well, since PHX is a US hub that is about to be absorbed into AA, I hope AA would have the foresight to add the PHX-MSY route that HP abruptly canceled just before Hurricane Katrina made landfall and never resumed when they merged with US.


Andy P. Jung
User currently offlinesouthwest737500 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 27253 times:

I'm pretty sure BA will come back to CLT. That will be nice to see.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16818 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 27233 times:

The Wall Street Journal has an article discussing AA/US's post merger hub network. They surmise that, unlike DL and UA who used their mergers to trim capacity, AA/US would keep their network intact. And that the purpose of the merger is to make AA bigger, again, and not to remove capacity. I tend to agree with their analysis.

To read the article type in "AMR stands to gain vast network" to Google news.

In the other merger discussion threads everyone keeps speculating the three US hubs, CLT, PHL and especially PHX would be slashed. I disagree, I think CLT will perhaps be reduced a little with the removal of some of the smaller regional flights but overall will continue to grow to the Caribbean and Latin America. PHL I took see getting a trim to some smaller communities but overall growing by adding routes like AUS, SAT and perhaps NRT long term on AA or JAL via a 787. And PHX keeps getting compared to CVG, STL, PIT, MEM etc.. It's not, PHX is a booming sunbelt city. It doesn't have the biggest business community, but it has tons of O&D. PHX might get realigned, but it's not going the way of PIT, CVG or STL. The local market is just too big, and unlike the rust belt hubs PHX is growing.

As for AA hubs, I don't see anything changing in ORD. I see MIA continue to grow and as for JFK/LGA, there's not going to be any to really spark any renewed growth. US doesn't have that large of a slot portfolio anymore, what I see is US A330s replacing AA 763s on routes from JFK.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20381 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 27149 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
And PHX keeps getting compared to CVG, STL, PIT, MEM etc.. It's not, PHX is a booming sunbelt city.

What your link says:

Quote:
There also are questions over whether the combined carrier could support eight hubs and, if not, which U.S. city might be on the chopping block. In most recent airline mergers, at least one hub has suffered deep cuts to its service, such as Cincinnati following the 2008 merger of Delta and Northwest Airlines.

In the expected American tie-up, analysts point to Phoenix as the likely target, partly because it is sandwiched between American hubs Los Angeles and Dallas.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11413 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 27008 times:

Since we're treating this as if it's already happened, my predictions on the hubs ...

I suspect the higher costs (relative to either independent, post-bankruptcy AA or US) will lead to inevitable optimization and capacity rationalization in the domestic network. For the markets below specifically the (#, #) represents my approximate prediction for the overall net % change in departures followed by overall net % change in seats over a period of 2-3 years following the merger (all estimates pro forma to each carrier’s independent operations today):

CLT (-5, -10): reduction in both departures and capacity simply driven by higher costs of combined entity; CLT remains the prime north-south connecting hub for the eastern U.S., and the key gateway into the southeastern U.S.; loses some longhaul flying to MIA but otherwise retains key international linkages

DFW (+2, +3): relatively minor overall growth driven primarily by picking up some connections previously handled by PHX, and some current PHX-exclusive US (and former AA) destinations such as LGB and OAK; offset by somewhat reduced capacity to the southeastern U.S. where connections are shifted over CLT and DFW sees markets like SAV, CHS, CAE, GSO, etc. lose some frequency in favor of larger, 2-class RJs

LAX (unchanged, +1): little change as a result of the merger, with a potential for some targeted domestic additions (e.g., PIT) to take advantage of combined strength, increased capacity on hub routes (e.g. 767 on 1 LAX-PHL rotation), and rationalization on overlapping routes (e.g., ending current Eagle schedule LAX-PHX)

MIA (+2, +2): continual growth, with MIA picking up some international connections from CLT (Caribbean, South America, CLT-FCO shifting to MIA-MXP); MIA continues to add new domestic and international markets (e.g., AUS, MCI, SAN, MKE)

NYC (JFK/LGA) (unchanged, +2): with domestic and some international connections shifted to PHL, NYC (both JFK and LGA) operations freed to focus on utilizing slots more effectively for local O&D, taking advantage of stronger combined AA presence to expand AA NYC links to major domestic (MCI, IND, IAH, MSY, CVG, DEN 1-3x daily each) and international (FRA, TLV 1x daily each) O&D markets

ORD (+7, -5): increase in departures but decrease in seats driven by shifting more mainline flying to large regional jets; in addition, ORD gains back connectivity to markets in northeastern U.S. where it had either shrunk or lost AA connections entirely in the last decade (BDL, PVD, ROC, BUF, ALB, etc.) and in select western markets (PDX, possibly SMF) where it is a more convenient connecting point than PHX for some city-pairs/itineraries

PHL (-5, -3): relatively small reduction in capacity and seats, but nothing major as PHL becomes the singular AA hub for handling connections to/from the northeastern U.S., as well as AA’s primary gateway to continental Europe

PHX (-40, -50): gradual but substantial reduction, with PHX shifted to focus on the large PHX outbound/inbound O&D market; PHX retains connections to 40-50 major U.S. markets (including HNL and probably OGG) plus YYC and YVR in Canada and the major Mexican beach markets, but with a substantial amount of the intra-west flying either eliminated or shifted to smaller (likely non-mainline) aircraft; of the 50% of capacity eliminated, approximately 35% is simply exited altogether, with 10% shifted over DFW and 5% over ORD and/or other hubs

WAS (DCA) (-2, -1): slight reduction in both departures and seats driven largely by forced slot divestitures at DCA (focused primarily on overlapping RDU/BNA routes), but offset by expanded presence in key hub markets (near-hourly shuttle to ORD, increased capacity to DFW, etc.)

Other Markets/Point-to-Point: combined strength of AA supports (re)introduction of nonstop flying in select O&D markets (e.g., BOS-RDU, BOB-SFO, etc.)


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 26890 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):

PHL (-5, -3): relatively small reduction in capacity and seats, but nothing major as PHL becomes the singular AA hub for handling connections to/from the northeastern U.S., as well as AA’s primary gateway to continental Europe

Do you really think AA is going to give up JFK in favor of PHL, as the primary gateway to Europe? I don't think so. PHL's problems are well known and documented and I'm certain that PHL will be the biggest loser in this deal. JFK will grow as a TATL hub, CLT will grow as a North-South hub, MIA will grow as a Caribbean/Americas hub and PHL will slowly shrink into a "focus city", over time.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16818 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 26833 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 6):
JFK will grow as a TATL hub

With what slots?



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11413 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 26764 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 6):
Do you really think AA is going to give up JFK in favor of PHL, as the primary gateway to Europe?

It's not a matter of "giving up" one in favor of the other. It's the sheer reality of slots and competition. PHL has no slots, and virtually no competition. JFK has onerous slot constraints, and tons of competition. In that environment, and given that US already has a bigger transatlantic operation out of PHL than AA does out of JFK, why would they cut one in favor of the other? Both serve a viable purpose, and can nicely compliment each other.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 6):
PHL's problems are well known and documented

True, although the "problems" one could ascribe to PHL could essentially be said of virtually every hub in the northeast.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 6):
I'm certain that PHL will be the biggest loser in this deal.

I'm near certain you're wrong. If this merger happens, the biggest loser - from a hub standpoint - is almost certain to be PHX. Nearly everyone seems to be in agreement on that.

I still don't understand why people think PHL is due for massive cuts. It's a huge hub, serving a huge market, with little meaningful competition, and in a relatively good location. JFK would also be a great asset for a combined airline - great terminal, huge local market, (relatively) large holding of slots, etc. But JFK cannot ever be a hub for AA the way PHL is for US and may soon be for AA. It's simply not possible.


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 26750 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 6):
PHL becomes the singular AA hub for handling connections to/from the northeastern U.S., as well as AA’s primary gateway to continental Europe



JFK relies on O&D, whereas PHL would serve as the primary "connecting" hub to Europe.

I wouldn't expect AA to diminish the NYC market more than it already has.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7496 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 26678 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 6):

If AA could have all the slots and gates they wanted at JFK, I might agree. But they can't really grow at JFK at all.

Shutting down PHL is a the equivalent of telling DL and UA, "Hey guys, we're not interested in making any money in the Northeast outside of NYC". Simply put, JFK cannot serve the same purpose PHL can. JFK cannot be the Northeast connector that PHL is. Not to mention, PHL itself is a very large market. Why give that up?

PHL probably will lose secondary destinations in Europe like ATH, GLA, and LIS. But I see PHL-NRT becoming a reality since that market can support it with connections on both ends.

Also disagree about CLT. It will be a key hub for the combined airline for sure, but it isn't going to grow.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8204 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 26468 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
It's not a matter of "giving up" one in favor of the other. It's the sheer reality of slots and competition. PHL has no slots, and virtually no competition.

PHL has no competition because no one wants to go to PHL  Sorry that's the reality. If you think people in NYC are going to chose AA and fly NYC-PHL-Europe you are out of your mind. The reality is that NYC is the single biggest market to/from Europe and to leave NYC in favor of PHL is ludicrous. JFK's slot restrictions are artificial. No one has ever been denied access to JFK. A truely slot restricted airport wouldn't be able to close a runway for 4 months for repaving. B6 hasn't had any problems growing at JFK. They're even expanding their terminal. And So is DL. So the idea that AA can't grow at JFK doesn't pass the sniff test.

Quoting seatback (Reply 9):
JFK relies on O&D, whereas PHL would serve as the primary "connecting" hub to Europe.

Fair enough but why not do that thru CLT which is already US's biggest hub and it's a better airport than PHL in every category? To/From Europe, the northeast can connect via JFK while the southeast can connect via CLT. PHL is the third wheel in my opinion   For domestic connections, I can see PHL's usefulness because CLT is too far south but there's also DCA. So I really don't see PHL growing at all.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4036 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 26368 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
Sorry that's the reality. If you think people in NYC are going to chose AA and fly NYC-PHL-Europe you are out of your mind. The reality is that NYC is the single biggest market to/from Europe and to leave NYC in favor of PHL is ludicrous.

Nobody is suggesting that.

AA will retain NYC-Europe service. It will also retain PHL-Europe service for the majority of the country who will not be connecting at JFK.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11413 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26311 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
Sorry that's the reality.

Reality according to who?

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
If you think people in NYC are going to chose AA and fly NYC-PHL-Europe you are out of your mind. The reality is that NYC is the single biggest market to/from Europe and to leave NYC in favor of PHL is ludicrous.

Nobody said that. I'm not suggesting AA just leave NYC and route everything through PHL. I'm suggesting AA keep their already-robust JFK-Europe schedule - and actually expand it somewhat - alongside the already-robust PHL-Europe schedule. I continue to be fascinated that many - apparently including you - seem to think the two cannot coexist.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
JFK's slot restrictions are artificial. No one has ever been denied access to JFK.

  

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
So the idea that AA can't grow at JFK doesn't pass the sniff test.

Well I don't know what it is you're "sniffing."

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 12):
Nobody is suggesting that.

AA will retain NYC-Europe service. It will also retain PHL-Europe service for the majority of the country who will not be connecting at JFK.

  

Thank you.


User currently offlinecorinthians From United States of America, joined May 2008, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26300 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
PHL has no competition because no one wants to go to PHL  Sorry that's the reality. If you think people in NYC are going to chose AA and fly NYC-PHL-Europe you are out of your mind. The reality is that NYC is the single biggest market to/from Europe and to leave NYC in favor of PHL is ludicrous. JFK's slot restrictions are artificial. No one has ever been denied access to JFK. A truely slot restricted airport wouldn't be able to close a runway for 4 months for repaving. B6 hasn't had any problems growing at JFK. They're even expanding their terminal. And So is DL. So the idea that AA can't grow at JFK doesn't pass the sniff test.

And even though PHL has no slots (although it probably should since it's always had delay issues), it's still a very, very congested airport with little room to grow. Can that airport handle more traffic with it's horrible runway configuration? Not really. And didn't US say they'd de-hub PHL if that new runway proposal goes through? Surprised nobody has mentioned that.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11413 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26245 times:

Quoting corinthians (Reply 14):
And even though PHL has no slots (although it probably should since it's always had delay issues), it's still a very, very congested airport with little room to grow.

Welcome to doing business as an airline in the northeast U.S. Just about every northeast airport is congested, crowded, overtaxed, run down, etc. PHL is hardly unique.

Quoting corinthians (Reply 14):
Can that airport handle more traffic with it's horrible runway configuration? Not really.

I don't think "more traffic" is really realistic. I think the PHL hub will shrink somewhat, both in terms of flights and capacity.

Quoting corinthians (Reply 14):
And didn't US say they'd de-hub PHL if that new runway proposal goes through?

There's plenty of money involved. I suspect they'll work something out.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12885 posts, RR: 100
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26206 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
PHX (-40, -50): gradual but substantial reduction,

You realize you are implying that AA will drop their west coast market share significantly? While DFW and ORD could be up some of that traffic, cutting PHX that much means a retreat Eastward that would cost AA revenue. It might be what has to happen... But I would not suspect that level of cuts. Not unless DFW cuts their costs more than I anticipate.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3386 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26211 times:

Quoting corinthians (Reply 14):
And even though PHL has no slots (although it probably should since it's always had delay issues), it's still a very, very congested airport with little room to grow. Can that airport handle more traffic with it's horrible runway configuration? Not really. And didn't US say they'd de-hub PHL if that new runway proposal goes through? Surprised nobody has mentioned that.

It's a combination of a few things
-Poor terminal design with tight alley ways between terminals
-Average to Poor airport design that impedes aircraft movement
-Tight airspace stuck in between NYC and WAS

US is just throwing around some weight to negotiate the deal and I imagine the combined carrier will do the same. It is in the best interest of both US (AA) and PHL to improve (expand) the airport. That is why US and PHL just came to a short term agreement for improvements.

[Edited 2013-02-08 06:37:32]

User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1607 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26203 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):

Pretty good overall. Not sure that NYC loses anything though.

Will AA retain props? Props are very important to CLT and to a lesser degree PHL.

This tie up benefits ORD the most. Larger RJs, 319s and E90s for ORD are needed badly. Helps AA in the east as well.


User currently offlineDolphinAir747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26126 times:

How big is AA at DCA? That will certainly affect how many slots AA/US has to give up at DCA.

BOB-SFO-you mean BOS-SFO, right? A flight to Bora Bora woukd be awesome... 


User currently offlinecorinthians From United States of America, joined May 2008, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26080 times:

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 17):
It's a combination of a few things
-Poor terminal design with tight alley ways between terminals
-Average to Poor airport design that impedes aircraft movement

The main parallel runways are just too close together and they can’t be used independently. Even the proposed new runway will be too close to allow for simultaneous independent operations. Won’t increase capacity all that much, as US Air said. Not even with NextGen. Very big cost considering limited to no operational improvement.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 17):
-Tight airspace stuck in between NYC and WAS

Even with the tight airspace, PHL always had more operations than any of the NYC or DC airports. Just too many scheduled flights there.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4118 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26066 times:

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 2):

I'm pretty sure BA will come back to CLT. That will be nice to see.

No, they will be less likely to come back to CLT because of the relationship that AA has with BA outside of their alliance tie up. Now, in the future I think that may be say in 10 years if AA survives that long, you may see AA flying directly to LHR, but I doubt that.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3386 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 25958 times:

Quoting corinthians (Reply 20):
Even with the tight airspace, PHL always had more operations than any of the NYC or DC airports. Just too many scheduled flights there.

I don't have specific numbers so anyone feel free to provide them but I suspect EWR has more movements than PHL and I suspect NYC (EWR/JFK/LGA/TEB) has almost triple the number of movements as PHL.

I suspect PHL does have more than the WAS airports individually but once again BWI/DCA/IAD probably have over double the number of movements than PHL. Don't forget about Dover AFB, Andrews AFB, Mcquire AFB, ACY, IST, etc.


User currently offlinejfidler From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 25967 times:

Didn't CLT recently announce plans for a large expansion of the airport? I wonder if this will affect their plans.

User currently onlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 843 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 26228 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 6):
Do you really think AA is going to give up JFK in favor of PHL, as the primary gateway to Europe? I don't think so. PHL's problems are well known and documented and I'm certain that PHL will be the biggest loser in this deal. JFK will grow as a TATL hub, CLT will grow as a North-South hub, MIA will grow as a Caribbean/Americas hub and PHL will slowly shrink into a "focus city", over time.

I totally agree. I think PHL will be one of the most affected hubs. It is extremely close to NYC and Philadelphia is not an economic powerhouse or booming city in the States today... with little to absolutely no appeal for Europeans (which are most if not all of its long-haul routes). Also, for congestion and weather, PHL is not even a good airport to be as alternative to JFK, and even its layout can be annoying (for instance the connection for the international side to I think it is T5). If AA+US wants to keep an alternative airport to the West Coast, Midwest, they could keep CLT, which has no congestion or weather issues, and can probably compete more with the likes of ATL in terms of geography (of course I am not saying CLT is or is going to be ATL, but they can target some same secondary markets). For me PHL was an oddity that US Airways used to have access to the Northeast, and conveniently located between New York and Washington, keeping also a monopoly in Philadelphia.

I have even flown myself a couple of times Europe-PHL-LGA (since it was much cheaper than direct Europe-NYC) and every other person in the PHL-LGA seemed to be connecting from Europe (including half of my flight). Of course it doesn't mean PHL can retain some major hubs like LHR (like BA flies to BWI in addition to IAD).

Just look at who flies in addition to US to Europe: BA to LHR and LH to FRA... that is all.



[Edited 2013-02-08 07:08:43]

25 corinthians : Individually, PHL has more movements than any airport in the Northeast. This has been the case for many years. Even before EWR got slotted, PHL still
26 LAXdude1023 : What do you realistically propose the combined airline do in the Northeast? Keep in mind, as most of us learned from 2nd grade geography, North Carol
27 bizjet : I think the Philadelphia naysayers are forgetting that the metro area is the 6th largest in the country. Plenty of traffic that wants to move. I think
28 commavia : Not sure how "significantly" net-net, but yes. The west is generally the lowest-yielding part of the U.S. AA - at a post-merged cost level - will not
29 flyinghippo : So... let me see if I understand you... The combined AA/US will have two TATL hubs within 150 miles of each other, and they will STILL operate as TAT
30 Post contains images airbazar : According to the Europe-PHL O&D numbers and the fact that US has the cheapest TATL fares around. The market is relatively small and low yield. JF
31 SCQ83 : I know some Philly yaysayer would come with that. PHL is the 7th in terms of GDP in 2010 according to the US Department of Commerce (I wouldn't be su
32 ckfred : Apparently, there has been talk from US directed towards the employees at the ORD hub. Parker feels that management has downsized ORD too much, consi
33 rwy04lga : What will happen at LGA? Who will go where? Who will trade gates with who?
34 usairways85 : First the JFK AA domestic network is a shell of the PHL US domestic network and I think the consensus is AA/US do not have the slots to build JFK int
35 commavia : No. You don't understand me. The two transatlantic operations - at JFK and PHL - already coexist now, just for two different airlines. In a merger, I
36 SCQ83 : You cannot compare New York and Washington DC (which btw are already much further apart) with New York and Philadelphia in terms of traffic and I bet
37 airliner371 : 50 daily departures. I am thinking 20-30 daily departures. I think it is a solid guess that AA/US will consolidate at Terminal B concourses C&D b
38 flyinghippo : EWR gets a lot of international traffic from local passengers. Same goes for IAD, so funneling passengers to those hubs makes sense and is cost effec
39 HPRamper : Many if not most delay issues at PHL are caused by airspace congestion, not ground congestion. PHL has undergone major improvements and according to
40 Post contains links corinthians : This was probably UAL's intention, but it hasn't turned out that way. EWR is roughly split in half between O&D and connecting traffic. According
41 flyinghippo : I wish I have a map that I can draw here... If there are already well established hubs in JFK, MIA and CLT on the east cost, ORD, DFW in the middle,
42 commavia : But that's the key - JFK isn't a "well established hub" now. It's a limited hub because of slot constraints and because it splits its local market wi
43 usairways85 : I think they would rather fly a 75% full 777 JFK-LHR made up predominantly of O&D and have the space for any last minute paxs that they will char
44 flyinghippo : I partially agree. My argument all along is that PHL will continue to be a hub, but not for international flights. Most of the international flights
45 jfklganyc : But AA connects people everyday. And the flights do fine with O and D...no need for huge numbers of connectors. I think that there will be a teething
46 SCQ83 : Comparing WAS VS PHL Foreign carriers serving Washington DC: Aeroflot, Aeromexico, Air Canada, Air France, ANA, Austrian, Avianca, BA, Brussels, Cayma
47 MasseyBrown : No way - more like two to three hours, depending on time of day, EZ-Pass, and good weather. If it's raining/snowing, IAD is more than an hour from Wa
48 usairways85 : You are proposing a ton of "backtracking" connections there. AA/US will have to drop fares otherwise many of those paxs will all go to DL/UA through
49 LAXdude1023 : PHL isnt NYC or BOS or DC. Im not going to pretend that it is. That doesnt mean there isnt a market and a sizable one at that. Below are the largest
50 flyinghippo : AA (and many other airlines) do this today for some cities.... why wouldn't it work after the merger? If cities such as Syracuse has enough demand fo
51 flyinghippo : How many of those passengers are connecting from other US flights? Or are they all O&D? Even if they're all O&D, I can only see LHR justifyin
52 Post contains images commavia : I would add several more to your list. Given the oneworld connections, I definitely see BCN staying from PHL - at least seasonally - along with DUB.
53 LAXdude1023 : Those are the numbers without connecting passengers. Those numbers are what the local PHL market generates in O&D. The numbers are per direction,
54 iFlyLOTs : While I have heard that it does do very well, wouldn't the combined company assume all debts of both the previous ones? Which would keep AA (the new
55 STT757 : It doesn't matter how well the route does for US, AA cannot operate flights to Israel unless they: A.) Pay a huge fine which they have refused for th
56 jfklganyc : Here's a thought outside the box... Can BA or IB operate JFK/PHL-TLV for AA? Just code it as an AA flight?
57 AeroWesty : Anyone want to take a stab at how long it would take AA to earn $30 mil in profits on flights to TLV in order to recoup this debt if it was paid?
58 LAXdude1023 : I should have clarified that assuming they are allowed to fly it, it will stick. Yes, I assume the combined airline will be forced to settle up or le
59 corinthians : How do you get these stats? I was actually going top start a thread asking where I could find them. Is it public knowledge or you can only get them f
60 SCQ83 : BCN is not a OW hub... VY is not in OW. Even DL cannot make ATL year round anymore. Two perfect candidates to be dropped (specially BRU). Little O&am
61 LAXdude1023 : Its MIDT data. The international portion is restricted, but occasionally public website post pieces of it.
62 apodino : All this talk of "easily" routing current PHL connections to other hubs has me giggling. As the point has been made, it is not so easy to route connec
63 LAXdude1023 : That I agree with. I dont see BRU or AMS maintining PHL service because the markets are so small. PHL will have LHR, CDG, FCO, FRA, MAD, and MAN for
64 Post contains links AeroWesty : I've never understood why AA has neglected the fourth-largest economic area within Europe, the The Randstad. AA's new ORD-DUS flight has been retimed
65 crAAzy : Are US's slots even theirs to keep in the event of a merger or are they leasing them from another Star carrier?
66 seatback : But CLT's O/D is a fraction of what PHL's is.
67 seatback : With more than 60 percent of market share at DCA, would it be a good idea for AA to try some Europe out IAD (LHR) and maybe S. America? I'm sure AA cu
68 Alias1024 : I don't think PHL will lose in a merger. It's a large city that would be absolutely dominated by the combined carrier, and as others have said, JFK is
69 crAAzy : BA already serves LHR out of IAD. But it will be interesting to see how OW as a whole decides to play the DC/N. Virginia market. Maybe an IB return ?
70 LDVAviation : How many did Delta give up in the slot transaction with US? I would say that is the benchmark. Could be even lower if a smaller number of slots are i
71 usairways85 : I'm pretty sure US has several contracts above and below the wing on PHL-MAN which is why it sees such a large aircraft daily year round. Many airlin
72 bobloblaw : Youre correct. The idea of sending people from SYR-ORD-LHR is absurd. What people are missing here is PHL yields to Europe are probably better than J
73 STT757 : Well it's been what 12-13 years since they dropped the route. So obviously AA feels it was not worth the cost, 13 years later. Obviously it applies t
74 United777ORD : American Airlines Hub Airports Daily Departure Projections Pre Merger / Post Merger DFW: 764 / 790 CLT: 610 / 510 ORD: 501 / 525 PHL: 440 / 420 MIA: 2
75 AeroWesty : Yes, understood. I'm just trying to get a feel for how long it might take AA to recoup the expense from TLV flight profits if it decided to pay the o
76 doug : MIA is at 348 now has been since November you are using old stats
77 Post contains links STT757 : Here's a previous discussion regarding AA and TLV, it includes discussion about the judgement against AA which was originally around $20 Million upon
78 southwest737500 : Really 100 flight reduction from CLT?!? That's crazy where do you pull that number
79 AeroWesty : Yes, I'm aware of the reasons behind the debt. That wasn't what I was asking about. Since my question has obviously been misunderstood, it's okay, we
80 Av8tor : That's where B6 will come into play. Codeshare at first. Purchase will come later. Buy lots of B6 stock over the next year, it will pay big dividends
81 LAXdude1023 : I think thats too generous.
82 Post contains images point2point : Not really wanting to be cynical or the likes here, but if CLT remains with 510 daily flights here...... I think that would be fantastic. My thinking
83 doug : Also if all (AA and US) current hubs stay the same as is Miami will be the number 2 hub for number of daily mainline flights.
84 Post contains images airbazar : Proof enough that JFK's slot restrictions are artificial. But when they're the same airline it's called redundancy Then we both share the same basic
85 LAXdude1023 : They are NOT both equally poor. Not even close. CLT-Europe is much, much smaller than PHL-Europe.
86 bobloblaw : If you think CLT will drop by 1/3, please start listing the cuts. Markets and frequencies. Really??? More than CLT? What is CLT mainline?
87 corinthians : What are CLT's numbers to Europe?
88 crAAzy : Nice ... I'll throw in my projections. DFW: 764 / 1080 CLT: 610 / 425 ORD: 501 / 625 PHL: 440 / 520 MIA: 294 / 450 PHX: 260 / 120 DCA: 220 / 240 LAX:
89 commavia : I expect far more than that. US today - without the benefit of a huge partner hub on the Europe end - manages to fly PHL-MAD year-round with a daily
90 BOStonsox : Specifically where do you get that? Can you provide a link? I'd pay if it was a reasonable price for it. It's also worth noting that AA has a new ter
91 LAXdude1023 : Since we have people throwing around claims with nothing to back it up, Im going to break down CLT like I did PHL. Below is the passengers per day per
92 commavia : I just do not understand this logic. How do people think AA is going to serve the northeast without a hub in PHL? There is no alternative - JFK is no
93 futureorthopod : I lived in Philly for four years and regularly made the decision to fly out of BWI, IAD, EWR, and JFK b/c they were readily accessible by public trans
94 BOStonsox : That's where DCA comes in. Anyone in the northeast going to Europe can go to JFK. PHL will retain a few European flights. Back in the mid-2000s, BOS
95 crAAzy : Agreed ! Logistically and location wise, I think PHL is probably the second best hub for the Northeast US (behind EWR). BA would probably have to giv
96 commavia : Frankly, I think that's highly unrealistic. A mix of JFK and DCA is not going to cut it - those two together will not be able to replicate the streng
97 SCQ83 : I think this argument about how important is the Philadelphia market is tiring. If PHL would be such an important market with no overlap with New York
98 jayunited : This thread looks really familiar to what was posted on this site when CO and UA merged. Many of you though IAD would be reduced in favor of EWR but U
99 MCOflyer : I agree. I see CLT growing and PHL scaling down. However, I see JFK growing with flights coming from PHL being redeployed to JFK or CLT. Also, I see
100 tommy767 : It's been proven for US that CLT, DCA, and PHL make lots of cash. I'd say (for connection hub patterns) CLT might take a slight hit, but keep in mind
101 LAXdude1023 : Then you dont agree with me. I dont feel like going through my position again, but its on this thread in more than one place. Ive already presented d
102 GSPflyer : DFW - Little/No Change. AA runs that place, and will continue to. CLT - Little/No Change. Maybe some minor capacity shifts to places like MIA or DFW,
103 strfyr51 : United is currently supporting 10 Hubs, I'm SURE American can find use for the 8 hubs it currently has and in my opinion they should be looking at a
104 futureorthopod : How will this impact slots/terminal space available at other airports, particularly LAX? Will Southwest have a little more breathing room in terminal
105 AeroWesty : I understand where you're coming from, but I don't see UA supporting a hub that is as far out of the way in relation to the major population centers
106 BOStonsox : The problem with PHL is that it's not just against JFK, but DCA and to lesser extents CLT and ORD as well. Philadelphia is a large market in its own
107 commavia : Well, again, I guess where we fundamentally disagree is the realistic appraisal of these three "hubs." I think your appraisal is just unrealistic. AA
108 EricR : United is currently supporting 10 Hubs, I'm SURE American can find use for the 8 hubs it currently has and in my opinion they should be looking at a P
109 jayunited : Where are the aircraft coming from to operate these international flights on your wish list seeing that US Airways does not operate any international
110 corinthians : OK, can you qualify this statement? Do you even live in the Tri-state? I work in Midtown and I fly out of all three airports a lot. How is EWR better
111 commavia : I suspect there would definitely be substantial slack in the combined carrier's widebody fleet, particularly considering that both carriers are in th
112 commavia : EWR is closer to downtown, and roughly equidistant to much of midtown. Although in my experience, if driving, the LIE to the Van Wyck to JFK is rarel
113 capitalflyer : In addition, I would expect some of the regional flying/connections that happen at DCA to shift to PHL/CLT. DCA sucks if you have to connect. Focus s
114 corinthians : Maybe you had some pretty bad luck because as a local who goes to all three airports very frequently on many modes of transportation, I can't see how
115 crAAzy : United is still posting losses. They are hardly the poster child for airline mergers at this point in time.
116 Post contains images SWALUV : Just a random question but does this mean we could hope to see some more AA/US 757's going out of DCA
117 jayunited : US Airways last A330-200 will be delivered sometime this year and they are not scheduled to take delivery of their A350's till 2016 and most of US Ai
118 commavia : Well then I've been having pretty bad luck consistently for pretty much my entire life. Coming from pretty much anywhere in the city, I've generally
119 jfk777 : With AA finally finishing their Miami hub, its time to expand eyond Latin America and do something in the South Atlantic. With AA now having extra 77
120 cjpmaestro : There is so much speculation on here about cuts and reductions, particularly to US hubs, and while I do see cuts at PHX I think it's proven the operat
121 STT757 : With this merger AA will be in possession of much of the former Eastern air lines assets, except ATL: Latin America routes Northeast shuttle (via Trum
122 AVLAirlineFreq : While it doesn't necessarily diminish its importance as a destination, I think Charlotte lost this ranking to San Francisco after the financial indus
123 Post contains links SCQ83 : I made some of those "histerical" comments. Never said Philadelphia was Duluth or Juneau... I just pointed that PHL is not such a major market as som
124 Ryefly : I suppose anything is possible with this industry, but its doubtful there will be many if any cuts to CLT. I think its more likely CLT will continue t
125 corinthians : Well, like I said, I have lived in NYC for the last 13 years and you obviously don't live here. I most definitely use all three airports a lot more t
126 AA787 : I think there might be a difference between how people get to the airport. From a mass transit perspective, EWR is far more convenient than JFK, part
127 corinthians : Working in Midtown West, I am curious how is it easier to get to EWR from there with the 1,2,3 and A,C,E. I take the E Train to and from Penn Station
128 STT757 : The fastest option is Amtrak from NY Penn station to EWR, 21 minutes cost $33. That's pretty darn good. Also the most comfortable.[Edited 2013-02-09 0
129 MasseyBrown : Lufthansa, directly or through subsidiaries, operates BRU, FRA, MUC, ZHR, and VIE. AirFrance has AMS, ORY, and CDG (and may be in danger of adding MX
130 commavia : Agreed. JNB is a good start - it's a market I think AA could absolutely make work. I think AA might be able to make LOS work, but probably with just
131 jayunited : This has to be one of the worst reasons I have ever heard for a airline to add a flight on its own metal, AA would not make any money. Switching a fl
132 commavia : First suggestion: take a deep breath. Second suggestion: re-read my comments. I never suggested AA start a flight simply to give free upgrades to peo
133 bagoldex : Not even close. Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Miami, DC, Houston, Los Angeles, Atlanta ...
134 Post contains links and images point2point : At first I though - oy vey, really - but then, I thought that if I could get a timetable that I could easily copy and paste onto my spreadsheet, I th
135 Post contains images point2point : Where's Denver? The last four quarters of the T-100 show the pax numbers at 375, 353, 405 and 439.
136 CIDFlyer : where's Des Moines? Pensacola? 340 is too low....I still see CLT somewhere between 400-500 flights a day minimum, similar to what DL has at MSP and D
137 AVLAirlineFreq : Seriously? Where's all that connecting traffic going to go? I applaud your effort, by the way, but what's the rationale behind taking a giant meat cl
138 LAXdude1023 : I missed it. My apologies. I prefer to use EWR as opposed to LGA or JFK if Im going to Lower Manhattan. The train to Penn station is perfect.
139 Post contains images point2point : My apologies..... DSM I'll give and will say it'll stay with it's one daily. PSN and IAD somehow got next to the Canadian destinations of Ottawa and
140 BHMNONREV : As others here have stated, once the combined operations come into play the increased costs of doing business will erode those advantages to/from CLT
141 crAAzy : These routes definitely aren't going to stick around in CLT after a merger where MIA and DFW are in play for many of the same CLT feed. Very nice wor
142 kngkyle : Only if by 'finance' you mean exclusively banking. And that is only because the largest US bank (Bank of America) is headquartered there. Lose that,
143 Post contains images AVLAirlineFreq : It would be interesting to do the same thing for the other hubs in the combined carrier, including both cuts and additions (including any adds to CLT
144 CIDFlyer : that may be true...but back to PNS as an example... PNS-CLT is pretty much all CR9's...not to mention what is the O&D between PNS and ATL for exa
145 brilondon : I don't think that CLT would survive with RDU being only 130 miles from CLT. CLT would be treated just like AA treated STL and RDU.
146 Post contains images point2point : That's cool my friend...... easy to miss something when dealing with tons of numbers and I probably wouldn't have noticed had I not been looking at s
147 AVLAirlineFreq : What does the proximity of CLT to RDU have to do with CLT's future?
148 9w748capt : Dude just .... no. Just curious did you read any of this thread? It's incredible the info that's being discussed.
149 CIDFlyer : Amen!!! I dont think brilondon has any sort of clue to CLT or how it will play an important role in AA's network. The thought of CLT ending up like R
150 BOStonsox : Okay, I should have looked outside of the USA more than I did. But we don't have any airlines with a hub at two of the airports serving a city like A
151 commavia : ??? United - today - operates huge hubs in EWR and IAD, and those are less than 250 miles apart and in precisely the same geographic region. And both
152 SCQ83 : I don't think it is a good comparison anyway. In the US, airlines want to have as much as geographical scope as possible, so a corporate client can f
153 a/c dxer : Will be interesting to see what the Justice Department will require. AA/USA might be required to give one hub up to get the merger approved. On the CL
154 DLPMMM : Why would the cut frequencies to HHH and SAV from CLT? There are no other airports in the AA/US system that are reasonable for connecting from these a
155 AVLAirlineFreq : So let me ask a question...why, then, does it work for DL at ATL? Sure, ATL has larger O&D for almost all of the same markets served with such hi
156 CIDFlyer : Bingo!! I dont understand the logic of these people saying CLT will be cut drastically to the doomsday scenerios of it ending up like STL or RDU. MEM
157 mah4546 : 1) DL's ATL hub operation is something like double the size of CLT. 2) DL doesn't have hubs in Dallas and Miami. Despite what people at trying to cla
158 CIDFlyer : a somewhat valid point...but how many interior mid sized/smaller cities in the northeast have service to MIA. Places like BUF/ROC/SYR/ALB/BTV/PVD/Har
159 mah4546 : Right now, no, but AA is planning to connect some of these markets to MIA in the short term, merger or no merger. PNS/TLH, yes. The rest, it's not re
160 PHX787 : Ok I can now see your argument about PHX and DFW having some issues in terms of interlining.... but, I do want to offer this rebuttle for both CLT an
161 Vctony : I am going to go along with everyone here and I say that PHX is going to be severely cut. I live in the PHX area and the local media here are doing ev
162 flyguy89 : Well sure, that is the point. Of course there are many markets that would remain more effectively served from CLT, thus it will continue to serve tho
163 commavia : CLT, yes - a great, centrally-located hub that perfectly handles connections up and down the east coast. PHX, not so much. PHX's location is hardly u
164 DarkSnowyNight : On AA you mean? Yea-oh yeah, they are. I lived there for about six years and the only times I flew w/ AA were either company business (and then only
165 Vctony : Essentially PHL is to US now what PIT was in the late 1990s. It just so happens that PHL has the European flights thrown in.
166 PHX787 : Here's something I just thought of after crunching some numbers: LAX is hardly a hub for AA. I see LAX being the one that gets pulled down to focus-ci
167 Vctony : DP slashed as much as he could but couldn't do much more cutting with the way the US network is structured. HP's PHX hub was larger than US's current
168 commavia : Not at all. There are two critical differences: first, PHL is a substantially larger local market than PIT, and with a substantially larger local cor
169 DarkSnowyNight : Not so sure about that one... AA doesn't have a lot of Asian presence Ex-LAX because AA doesn't have a lot of Asian presence period. That really hasn
170 MasseyBrown : Isn't that almost exactly what Southwest did in California? But we're drifting a bit from AA/US hubs. My point is that because of huge amount of O&am
171 mah4546 : AA is the largest mainline airline at LAX and has the largest revenue share at LAX. It is overall the second largest carrier at LAX, but is on track
172 commavia : Precisely. The operations all serve entirely different purposes. The PHL operation is a hub - and a huge megahub at that. It does today, and in the f
173 PHX787 : OK I have come to the conclusion that NONE of us (including me) have any idea what's going to happen here. We all are speculating too much, and here's
174 Lindberghflyer : Hi, this is my first post, so go easy on me. I figure I will add my two cents , as a southern cal frequent flyer, onto this whole "how much will they
175 commavia : Well, I don't know who "we" is who are saying any of that. I, and many others, have been very consistent - and in my entirely baised opinion, very ra
176 Post contains links AeroWesty : I don't believe this is correct—a JV wouldn't be logical for QF to enter into if AA had no flights on their side to reciprocally share revenue and
177 BOStonsox : Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I meant THREE hubs within 250 miles of each other is unprecedented in the USA. IAD and EWR are obviously big enough t
178 flyguy89 : Well, let's be fair here, yeah there have been a few posters randomly dropping one-liner posts that CLT is the next MEM or STL with no argument to ba
179 Post contains images PHX787 : Oh my god you're giving me a headache here PHX is NOT a rust belt city with a declining population. We aren't a desolate wasteland of desert and dust
180 adamh8297 : As a primarily leisure traveller, I've connected from BOS to AKL, KOA and PVR (got an extra 1000 UA miles for that one) I can connect to SBA, FAT, MR
181 Post contains images commavia : It would be unprecedented, but that's not what's happening here. Calling AA's JFK or US' DCA operation "hubs" is more marketing than reality. Both ar
182 LAXdude1023 : SLC is not a weak hub. Im sorry you think so because thats the hub PHX is going to most closely resemble post merger.
183 klkla : At the end of the day there isn't likely to be a significant change at JFK, PHL, DCA, CLT, LAX or MIA because they're all unique in some way and all t
184 PHX787 : Alright, that's good, and go tell your buddies over at UA and DL that their flights to all points eastward, along with NH, SQ, Asiana, Korean Air, th
185 commavia : I never insinuated any such thing. You're the one who stated - didn't insinuate, but simply stated - that "LAX is not a connecting city." I was simpl
186 adamh8297 : I think you misunderstood the poster. He didn't say LAX is a fortress hub for AA. LAX is one of the biggest O&D Markets in the world but connecti
187 Post contains images 9w748capt : Let me use myself as a textbook case of this - next week I'm flying OKC-LAX and connecting to CX. Yup that's right, connecting. At LAX. Let me also t
188 mah4546 : What are you talking about? AA is around 160 daily flights at LAX and growing. Combined with US, it will be around 180 and the larger airline at LAX.
189 USAirALB : It looks like your trying to make MIA a prime connecting spot for NE-FL traffic flows. It does not take 2 hours to fly CLTNYC, more like an hour and
190 sonomaflyer : LAX won't be pulled down on the number of flights. It's too important a jump-off point for Asia/Australia with a massive O/D market. It may not become
191 Post contains images CIDFlyer : exactly. Bottom line is MIA is an awesome hub for Caribbean, South and Latin America, but a poor domestic hub due to its location. CLT will fit the b
192 PDX88 : US would kill for what AA has in LAX right now. PHX will never see QF, CX, MH, KE, NZ, SQ, CA, CZ, CI, FJ (etc. etc.). AA depends quite a bit on conx
193 N782NC : 100% agree. All things being equal, PHX is slightly (and I stress slightly) better positioned for domestic connections to East Coast from the Pac NW.
194 IcelandairMSP : Is there enough room for combined AA/US ops in terminal 4 at LAX? It seems tight as it is.
195 AAplat4life : Off hand, I would think that this is a pretty big challenge since US's flights currently go into T-1 and AA is not going to want to move from T-4 sin
196 DarkSnowyNight : Have you ever been here or at least bothered to look at the numbers? Like I said before, MQ wouldn't be here, let a lone in the numbers they are if A
197 apodino : Just wondering how much US may regret pulling down LAS. It has the same type of market that PHX does, but it is a much bigger convention site which te
198 mah4546 : AA is getting four gates in TBIT in 2014 (late 2014, I think). That will allow it to move all international ops to TBIT; focus T4 on domestic. And it
199 Post contains images airbazar : Forget 3 in 250. What about 2 in 90 miles? No airline in the world has ever tried 2 hubs 90 miles from eachother unless you consider ORY an AF hub, b
200 Post contains images apodino : I mentioned this in another thread. Terminal A in PHL I believe has 26 gates capable of international arrivals that can be fed into the FIS in A West
201 Post contains images commavia : I suspect the answer is: "not at all." Talk about low-yield. Sure, LAS is high-volume. But it's also low-yield. It only ever worked as pseudo-legacy
202 PSU.DTW.SCE : I'm in general agreement with what commavia posted way back in reply #5. I'm going to add a few more thoughts for color commentary and discussion: Agr
203 travelin man : US is already planning on moving to T3 from T1. If a combined AA/US needed more "breathing room" at LAX, they could use Terminal 3, similar to the se
204 phxa340 : Your letting your emotional attachment to PHX blind the realistic and rational assessment that PHX will be negatively impacted. By making statements
205 commavia : I don't expect they will have to divest many, if any, LGA slots. DCA, though? That will obviously require some divestiture. With one critical differe
206 LAXdude1023 : Yet, you completely ignored the facts that have been presented before you. You have been provided local market information and the reasons why PHL wo
207 PSU.DTW.SCE : Let's not kid ourselves, DL likes to think that LGA is a connecting hub and even states that is it, but isn't. DL would be happy if they got even clo
208 mah4546 : Priority use of four TBIT gates if the TBIT gate count is over 17 gates. TBIT will be at 18, so AA gets the priority gate use. I might have those num
209 bizjet : I totally agree with everyone who is arguing that PHL and JFK can very effectively co-exist with each other. Clearly, all the major markets will be se
210 mah4546 : JFK makes the most sense to add niche markets. And I fully expect GLA, MUC, LIS, ATH, BRU and AMS will move to JFK (assuming AA/US keep them).
211 Post contains images commavia : Again - it's not "either or," it's "both." I think it depends. There are pros and cons to each. JFK will obviously always win out on the local market
212 usairways85 : I'm not sure about AMS. I vaguely remember that PHL-AMS on US has been a mediocre preformer at best. Also not sure about SNN. US canned it a few year
213 EricR : Amsterdam: People seem to be bearish on this simply due to the obvious dominance of SkyTeam, but I contend that this market is so large and important
214 mah4546 : Keep the capacity; move it to Miami, like what I believe should be done with Charlotte-Rome. Not only is Miami-Zurich a huge local market (100,000+ l
215 BigGSFO : Well there is the AB relationship and they are starting ORD-DUS, so perhaps they just need to find the right routes. Perhaps (presumably) Parker and
216 Post contains images jlbmedia : While a major snow storm may effect both PHL & JFK, It is not necessarily guaranteed. Predicting snow in the Northeast is not as simple as you ha
217 mah4546 : The problem is this market is insanely Germany-centric originating and weak yielding (especially outside of FRA). Let airBerlin handle this traffic.
218 commavia : I think CLT-FCO should move to MIA-MXP. Is the market large and high-yielding enough to support an AA flight in addition to the LX flight? Perhaps.
219 SkedGuy : Perhaps, but cities like the DFW Metroplex are already booming again TODAY post-Recession -- even in the current environment and without the influenc
220 BigGSFO : Well here's hoping Parker will take some more risks than the outgoing team did using Miami as a transatlantic gateway: MXP, JNB, CPT, etc.
221 mah4546 : At ~110,000 annual passengers and $1,100ish average one-way fare, absolutey, I think so. It's about 50% bigger than MIABCN; a little larger than MIAM
222 ckfred : Parker as said to employees in Chicago that he feels that AA has let the Chicago market get away from AA, with UA and WN gaining more traffic. If the
223 9w748capt : Basically, yes to all. From what commavia and others have said - that's exactly correct - the scope clause has hamstrung AA in ORD, and they should f
224 PSU.DTW.SCE : AA has had challenges to get the capacity/frequency mix right on many markets out of ORD. The larger RJs help this moreso than the A319. The A319 isn
225 BigGSFO : Maybe not in capacity, but definitely in lower costs.
226 mah4546 : I definitley see a lot of shifting of European routes between not only JFK and PHL; but ORD and MIA will get in the mix as well. When you look at how
227 LAXdude1023 : Which markets, in your opinion does PHL keep over the Atlantic?
228 mah4546 : Long-term, FRA/CDG/LHR/MAD/FCO; maybe TLV/MAN.
229 EricR : Looking solely at total PDEWs is misleading without also factoring in the additional N/S competition at MIA & ORD that will eat away at the PDEW
230 usairways85 : Well as for the PDEW list I think there are already a number of destinations many of us believe could be cut from PHL. ATH, MUC, GLA, AMS, BRU, SNN co
231 adamh8297 : You are forgetting that some European destinations are hubs. If you look at MIA-ZRH, there are people flying LX to connect in ZRH to get to destinati
232 LAXdude1023 : For the most part, I agree though I would put MAN into the first one tha PHL keeps for sure. Even if its downgraded from a 330, it's not a bad sized
233 slcdeltarumd11 : The place where PHL shines IMHO is the smaller markets mostly connections to the 757 cities or high connection price sensative markets like ATH or TL
234 ckfred : The scope clause had been an issue, along with the decision to first cancel TW's order for 717s and return the aircraft Boeing had already delivered,
235 ckfred : I just came across a Reuters report about the possible routes affected by the merger. DOJ would probably want some limits on flights between the forme
236 commavia : That article is typical "journalism" with regard to the airline industry - which is to say, idiotic. They interviewed a bunch of alleged antitrust "e
237 ckfred : You're right that both DFW and CLT lack any sort of slot restrictions. But, that doesn't mean that DOJ might require some limits on the number of fli
238 AeroWesty : I believe that would be unprecedented, not to mention rather useless. The only thing I can fathom the DOJ requiring the combined airline sell or give
239 commavia : As already stated - that would likely be without precedent in airline merger history, and would be absolutely ridiculous considering the markets in q
240 HPRamper : But at the detriment of those markets that already landed the services. I think some slots will have to be divested at DCA but I believe it will be l
241 LAXdude1023 : And you can file that article under the heading "Clueless Journalism". Are you joking? DFW has no restrictions. DAL doesnt apply. Even then, the mark
242 SANFan : I don't think US/AA can sell any of the beyond-perimeter slots. One would have to go back and look at the various Bills that authorized the routes bu
243 SANFan : I checked the text of the Bill authorizing last years Beyond-Perimeter hearing and award of 16 exemptions. Here is an important clarification: Can the
244 AeroWesty : I asked that question in another thread, regarding the different tranches of authorizations which came about, such as DEN being a grandfathered route
245 Post contains images Caryjack : Are you saying that the largest carrier at a hub, the DC, has some control over that airports costs which can be passed on to other carriers thereby
246 gigneil : So, I'll just say this. US carries more passengers to Europe from Philly now than AA does from JFK, and offers service to - what, twice? - as many dom
247 flyguy89 : What's your point?
248 doug : CLT 130 to 135 nonstop cities served MIA 115 cities where did you get 50 from?Also AA'S Miami hub offers more mainline flights than CLT with U.S only
249 Post contains images point2point : I would think that DEN is a godfathered route with LGA, but not with DCA. This is the case with LGA. In 1984, to further combat overcrowding at LGA,
250 AeroWesty : Good catch, when I was typing that post I used a bad example, and confused LGA/DCA for a moment.[Edited 2013-02-14 13:36:16]
251 Post contains images Maverick623 : Point of note: the correct term is grandfather. As was said, typical crappy journalism by people who know nothing about aviation asking people who th
252 Post contains images Darksnowynight : No, they do not, although in some cases they can negotiate better gate lease rates, but that really wouldn't be significant. What I meant is that som
253 Post contains images point2point : LOL...... typing out the whole response I only thought of the technical issues of the airports involved..... and not the term itself....... And you a
254 Philly65 : I am amazed at the amount of PHL bashing and pontificating as though everyone has some inside knowledge of what changes will occur once the two airlin
255 AAplat4life : I'm not sure why that is such an advantage for AA. Other than international flights, that is also true for most of its other hubs. However, I think P
256 Philly65 : I was referring to connections across carriers (alliance or non-alliance related). And yes,exactly regarding int'l to domestic flights...that is done
257 Cubsrule : For single carrier connections, what's the difference between PHL and EWR/JFK? In PHL, you take the bus from A to F. In EWR, you take the train from
258 Philly65 : You can take the bus from A to F but they also have moving sidewalks. Aren't the trains at EWR pre-security? It has been a while since I have connect
259 Cubsrule : Sure, but it's a long walk; it's probably longer than C to L at ORD, and no one is arguing that's an easy connection. The bus is within security, the
260 Philly65 : Didn't realize EWR had bus service between terminals A & C but the point I am making is that although the trains are convenient you do have to ex
261 Cubsrule : The only reason to take the train is if you are arriving on an international flight and outside security anywhere. My point isn't that PHL is a bad p
262 Philly65 : I didn't say it was superior and not giving that impression, but as you note is not a bad place to connect and it is a better facility than IAD and o
263 Post contains images AAIL86 : DFW presents no issues that haven't already been hammered out in prior mergers. It was a fortress hub before the merger and will will continue to be
264 Post contains images LAXdude1023 : Unless youre flying from DFW to CID.
265 chexp77w : So is CLT gong to be bigger then ORD? As a Hub. Right now its DFW and ORD in second place. with the merger will it be DFW, CLT & then ORD?
266 jonathanxxxx : It depends on your view. I personally believe that CLT will be reduced (Not dehubbed as some say on here) and right-sized to be able to compliment MI
267 MAH4546 : [ Yes, but MIA is AA's second largest hub, not ORD.
268 deltaflyertoo : Agree w/ everything except I argue AA never gave up on NYC. I've seen all the numbers for US hubs and how they pace, but I'd love to see what AA REAL
269 MAH4546 : AA has the highest average fares of any airline at JFK and second highest proportion of O&D after B6. Those "ego" contracts are exactly what DL h
270 chexp77w : Really I didn't know that I was told ORD was at 500+ flights a day and MIA was around 300+ so my apologies if I was incorrect In this maybe someone m
271 MAH4546 : But MIA is mostly mainline jets and ORD largely regional jets, so MIA is a larger operation, with less daily flights.
272 SANFan : And how do the hub operations compare as far as number of domestic routes from each? (And intl as well if that data is handy.) I know I've seen the n
273 BDL757 : I don't think CLT is going to be as drastically cut as some people say. I think it will get a haircut thought. I see it being like DL's MSP hub: lots
274 Post contains links moderators : As this thread has become quite long and in some cases difficult to follow, it will now be locked for further contributions. Any posts added after the
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AA/US Merger Impact Master Thread posted Thu Feb 7 2013 19:08:10 by jetblueguy22
Impact On BA If AA/US Merger posted Tue Sep 4 2012 16:11:45 by yaariseattle
US/AA Potential Merger: Potential Hubs/Networks? posted Sat Apr 21 2012 04:52:58 by LAXdude1023
WFAA: AA-US Merger Announced Next Week (sources) posted Wed Feb 6 2013 15:39:34 by blueflyer
Fate Of Domestic IFE In An AA/US Merger posted Wed Jan 2 2013 08:43:39 by 1337Delta764
AA/Us Merger - Two Airlines, One Parent? posted Fri Dec 28 2012 20:37:16 by cloudboy
More AA/US Merger News posted Fri Aug 24 2012 11:47:14 by mattya9
AA/US Merger Effects On DCA? posted Tue Jul 3 2012 14:18:14 by SWALUV
AA/US Merger=Fare Hikes + US Future? posted Mon Apr 23 2012 11:47:36 by SWALUV
Shocked By AA Union Support For AA/US Merger posted Sat Apr 21 2012 18:15:43 by kakk80