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AF Looking To Sell CityJet  
User currently offlinesxb From France, joined Sep 2008, 112 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8818 times:

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...e-puts-cityjet-up-for-sale-382066/

"Air France has put its regional subsidiary CityJet up for sale and has shortlisted six potential investors."

Any idea what kind of investors would get onboard? Potential airlines?


SXB
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3905 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8673 times:

I cannot open your link, but it must be an old article.

This has been known for months (if not longer) and AF is already down to a shortlist of 6 or so potential buyers and will whittle it down to two preferred bidders over the coming weeks, one with an airline background and one with an investment background.


User currently offlinesxb From France, joined Sep 2008, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8587 times:

Ok, then the only new element seems to be the calendar with a May or June target for the sale.

"The Ireland-headquartered carrier says that this number will be whittled down to two by the end of March, with both prospective buyers then being asked to submit final bids with a view to a new owner being announced by May or June."

Which airline could be interested in CityJet? FlyBe?



SXB
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19097 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8486 times:

AF has been keen to sell WX for sometime now. This isn’t surprising given WX generated a collective net loss of EUR€226m/USD$312m between 2007 and 2011.


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11572 posts, RR: 61
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8463 times:

Quoting sxb (Reply 2):
Which airline could be interested in CityJet? FlyBe?

FlyBe would be fools not to look - I mean who would turn down the chance to go over a competitor's books, but they would be fools to buy as well.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26508 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8459 times:

This was the latest article :

The Irish Times - Wednesday, February 6, 2013
CityJet bidders whittled down

Air France-KLM Group wants to narrow the number of bidders for its CityJet unit to two by the end of next month after whittling down the group of possible suitors to six from 10, according to a person with knowledge of the talks.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...nance/2013/0206/1224329707317.html



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineBA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8290 times:

IAG/BA own 15% of BE, compeating with BA at LCY would be a bit of a conflict of interest.

User currently offlineseansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 805 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8202 times:

Quoting BA174 (Reply 6):
IAG/BA own 15% of BE, compeating with BA at LCY would be a bit of a conflict of interest.

There is very little overlap other than Edinburgh, Amsterdam and Zurich.


User currently offlineBA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8117 times:

The things is that BA would probably want the slots for themselves not BE. I doubt the BE business model will be appealing at LCY anyways.

User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3905 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7864 times:

If BA took over WX, they would have a de facto monopoly at LCY with only five other established carriers - Swiss, Lufthansa, Luxair, Alitalia, Blue Islands - offering flights (to seven destinations)*. LCY then can only pray that BA will never loose interest in its BACF operation...

* I am discounting Sky Work and FlyNonstop that, sooner or later, will almost certainly disappear - and I am not sure if Blue Islands which I have included is a sure bet.


User currently offlineseansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 805 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7792 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 9):
I am discounting Sky Work and FlyNonstop that, sooner or later, will almost certainly disappear - and I am not sure if Blue Islands which I have included is a sure bet.

I thought Skywork were doing quite well? They increased frequencies to 3 daily now.

It could be possible that once they sell WX maybe KL or AF would return to operate the route themselves. Could AerArran also operate to dublin for Aer Lingus? EI did previously fly to LCY.


User currently offlineThomas_Jaeger From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 2358 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7721 times:

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 10):

I thought Skywork were doing quite well? They increased frequencies to 3 daily now.

They have increased to three times daily but are operating with Do328s instead of Dash 8-400s, so in practice have actually decreased capacity.



Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
User currently offlineseansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 805 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7675 times:

Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 11):
They have increased to three times daily but are operating with Do328s instead of Dash 8-400s, so in practice have actually decreased capacity.

I think it varies I'm sure I've seen the Dash 8 in there a few times in the past couple of weeks.


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2462 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7662 times:

What about BMI regional. I think their Business case would be better instead of operating BHX to LYS and BRS to HAM.


Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlinesxb From France, joined Sep 2008, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7615 times:

Is BA even profitable from LCY?
According to WX CEO (I attended one of her presentation last month), they aren't.



SXB
User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4601 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7590 times:

Quoting sxb (Reply 2):
Which airline could be interested in CityJet? FlyBe?

Aer Lingus by any chance?

That'd be an interesting one.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineseansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 805 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7568 times:

Quoting sxb (Reply 14):
Is BA even profitable from LCY?
According to WX CEO (I attended one of her presentation last month), they aren't.

I think BA are. BA are known for dropping any unprofitable flights so I doubt they would bother if not making money. I don't think WX CEO knows.


User currently offlinesxb From France, joined Sep 2008, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7547 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 15):
Aer Lingus by any chance?

Don't know, Aer Lingus just managed to turn back to profit and they already have quite a few challenges on their plate... don't think if it would be wise for them to buy an unprofitable airline.
In addition, WX fleet needs to be replaced... Aer Lingus doesn't really have the right aircrafts for that... On the other hand, FlyBe...



SXB
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3075 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7462 times:

Quoting sxb (Reply 14):
Is BA even profitable from LCY?
According to WX CEO (I attended one of her presentation last month), they aren't.

Well he would say that wouldn't he? I am not sure if it's publically know whether CFE makes money or not, the point is they parked their tanks on WX lawn and won. The only route where CFE have blinked first is Dublin and the product is now much better than WX. The final part of the strategy of getting CFE into profit may be the removal of WX as a competitor.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7442 times:

BA/IAG apply a very cold hard logic when it comes to approving capital expenditure and I don't think they would have approved a new fleet for BA CityFlyer unless they thought it could make a profit.

BA CityFlyer may or may not be profitable but its yields are certainly better than LHR short-haul. It is also a rare example of BA winning against the competition in the short-haul market in Europe. IAG has also said it's not interested in buying CityJet.

[Edited 2013-02-08 08:42:57]

User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3905 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7421 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 13):
What about BMI regional. I think their Business case would be better instead of operating BHX to LYS and BRS to HAM.

They would need a new fleet for that unless they would use the three E135 for LCY.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 15):
Aer Lingus by any chance? That'd be an interesting one.

I think they will be happy to not be taken over by Ryanair...

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 10):
I thought Skywork were doing quite well? They increased frequencies to 3 daily now.

Well, they have just announced a cost-cutting program, axed jobs, begun chargin fuel surcharges, are under criticism to increasingly cancel flights at short notice. Most importantly, the guy who has funded the airline in the past, Rolex-heir Daniel Borer, has stepped down from his executive positions, saying that he has fulfiled his promise to fund the airline with up to 50m.

All we know is that a) Skywork is not profitable and b) it has apparently maxed out the amoutn of money the founder is willing to cough up. Make of that what you want.


User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4601 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7390 times:

Quoting sxb (Reply 17):
Don't know, Aer Lingus just managed to turn back to profit and they already have quite a few challenges on their plate... don't think if it would be wise for them to buy an unprofitable airline.

True, though I'm sure Air France could offload it debt free... I could probably afford to buy it myself  

It will be interesting to see what happens, that's for sure!



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11572 posts, RR: 61
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7232 times:

Quoting sxb (Reply 17):
WX fleet needs to be replaced... Aer Lingus doesn't really have the right aircrafts for that... On the other hand, FlyBe...

FlyBe doesn't have suitable jet aircraft - the ERJ 175 and 195 are not certified for LCY ops, leaving just the Q400. Aer Lingus on the other hand has the ATR 72 through its regional partner, which is suitable.

Personally I don't see CityJet being a good fit for Aer Lingus, and FlyBe's situation right now would make a purchase highly risky - quite aside of the IAG interest. Even if they are given away for £0, debt free, plus funds transferred from advance ticket sales, the cost of taking on and restructuring the business is going to be significant.

One thing I am wondering is if this sale will include the possibility to continue flying services under contract on behalf of AFKLM into AMS/PAR and other destinations from LCY. Presumably if this is not an option then AFKLM will retain some of the slots in order to operate their own feeder services with Hop! and CityHopper.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19097 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7187 times:

Quoting sxb (Reply 17):
WX fleet needs to be replaced

Of course, ownership costs will likely be zero now for the handful of aircraft that WX itself owns. And for those leased, which comprise most its total fleet, lease rates will clearly be very low. Given the nature of a lot of WX's operations, which revolves around business people and therefore has low utilisation (per 24 hours), it trades zero/low ownership costs with greater maintenance and fuel consumption (per hour flown) vis-a-vis a fleet of new or newer aircraft that would have to be depreciated (if not leased) and utilised more intensively to reduce the fixed costs of them per ASK. And this increased use may, depending upon the routes operated, achieve poor yields and seat factors, although if they at least covered the fixed costs... Perhaps WX's increasing move into leisure-type and thinner routes from LCY may help. Or for roughly the same utilisation as now, it would have to charge more or cut costs somewhere or charge the same as now but have lower margins. Difficult decisions with clearly numerous trade-offs.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24080 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6720 times:

I can't see anyone willing to pay much for a fleet of fuel-hungry Avro RJs that most operators can't wait to replace, and aging Fokker 50s that most operators have already replaced.

User currently offlinegreenjet From Ireland, joined Aug 2001, 939 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6432 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 18):
Well he would say that wouldn't he?

He is a she  


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6955 posts, RR: 57
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6395 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 22):
One thing I am wondering is if this sale will include the possibility to continue flying services under contract on behalf of AFKLM into AMS/PAR and other destinations from LCY. Presumably if this is not an option then AFKLM will retain some of the slots in order to operate their own feeder services with Hop! and CityHopper.

Or, this could go the other way to sweeten the WX sale pie- increased flying on behalf of AF / KL - WX operate one route on behalf of KL, so there is the potential for one more. We could also see more AF flying from the UK regions to CDG to feed the AF hub, with risks shared.

The most obvious suitor is probably Flybe, but with the ryanflybegus concept floating, I'd say that flybe are totally distracted. I wonder if Turkish are interested?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineairbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5621 times:

So how is KL going to fly it's AMS-LCY pax? Modify the E190? Order some E170s? Codeshare with FlyBe?


FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
User currently offlinejamesontheroad From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 537 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5048 times:

FlyBe have already gone through the experience of absorbing a loss-making regional airline with a (mostly) jet fleet - BA Connect. In the words of BE employee I overheard (head office, not crew) when BMI Regional was being prepared for sale, the experience of integrating one regional jet airline "almost killed" BE and they had no desire to go through it again.

I'd guess that BE couldn't do it on their own, especially given their recent financial performance. Besides, BE withdrew from LCY because the niche wasn't right for them or their semi-lo-co business model. But perhaps BE could partner with one of these rumoured investors to develop something here. BE have the expertise and are open to collaborations (see FlyBe Nordic or the regional flying contract for Olympic for two different examples). Given the need for specifically rated a/c and given the focus on business rather than a more mixed business-and-leisure market at LCY, it could be operated as a distinct brand...?


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11572 posts, RR: 61
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5018 times:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 26):
The most obvious suitor is probably Flybe, but with the ryanflybegus concept floating, I'd say that flybe are totally distracted.

At first glance perhaps, but the question is, can FlyBe afford the costs involved? My view is that the risk would be too great.

Quoting airbuster (Reply 27):
So how is KL going to fly it's AMS-LCY pax? Modify the E190? Order some E170s? Codeshare with FlyBe?

CityHoppers ERJ 190s can use LCY, alternately they could use the F70s.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineairbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4642 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 29):

Though Fokker has done steep approach test with the 70/100, it's not certified.



FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3905 posts, RR: 5
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 4536 times:

Quoting airbuster (Reply 30):

Though Fokker has done steep approach test with the 70/100, it's not certified

The Fokker 70 is, it only requires a software update. It has served LCY in the past for AF - actually the Fokker 70 was replaced on theLCY-PAR runs by Cityjet RJ85s.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3075 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4403 times:

Quoting airbuster (Reply 30):
Though Fokker has done steep approach test with the 70/100, it's not certified.

More recently, Austrian Arrows was on LCY-VIE with the F70.


User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4286 times:
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Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 15):
Aer Lingus by any chance?
That'd be an interesting one.
Quoting sxb (Reply 17):
Don't know, Aer Lingus just managed to turn back to profit and they already have quite a few challenges on their plate... don't think if it would be wise for them to buy an unprofitable airline.

I agree, EI don't need to take on the task of refleeting and streamlining WX

Quoting sxb (Reply 2):
Which airline could be interested in CityJet? FlyBe?

Well apparently FR are going to bankroll FlyBe Ireland in the name of competion, why not ask them to bankroll a WX takeover too!!!!!!


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6109 posts, RR: 9
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4244 times:

I've taken CityJet several times, but never to fly to or from LCY. Instead I flew CDG-FLR. So what will happen with this route ?


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3696 times:

FlyBe has ruled itself out of the bidding for CityJet:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ed-in-air-france-s-cityjet-1-.html

Quote:
Flybe Group Plc, Europe’s biggest regional airline, said it’s not in the running to buy Air France-KLM Group’s CityJet unit.

“We looked at it,” Jim French, Exeter, England-based Flybe’s chief executive officer, said in an interview in Dublin. “It didn’t appeal to us at all so we’re not interested.”

CityJet has “tired” equipment and would require too much capital spending, French said. The unit’s operations at London City airport, which it serves from more than 20 destinations across Europe, are also being squeezed by British Airways, and it’s not clear how long feeder flights into Air France’s Paris Charle de Gaulle hub would last after a sale, he said.


User currently offlineairbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

Thanks guys, I had my info wrong. I couldn't find any pics though.


FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11572 posts, RR: 61
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3298 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 35):
it’s not clear how long feeder flights into Air France’s Paris Charle de Gaulle hub would last after a sale, he said.

Very interesting. That will significantly affect their value.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineNonRev From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 59 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2715 times:

How many a/c do WX have based at LCY & how many overnight?

User currently offlineThomas_Jaeger From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 2358 posts, RR: 28
Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2664 times:

Taking next Monday as a random example, that would be the breakdown:
AMS: 3 AR8s
ANR: 2 F50s
CDG: 3 AR8s
DND: 1 D38
DUB: 3 AR8s
EDI: 3 AR8s
EIN: 1 F50
FLR: 1 AR8
LCY: 1 AR8, 1 D38
LUX: 1 F50
NCL: 1 AR8
NTE: 1 F50
NUE: 1 AR8
ORY: 2 F50s
RTM: 2 F50s
TRN: 1 AR8



Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
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