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Sunwing Passengers Stuck On Plane For 13 Hrs  
User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1081 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 21605 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013...ac_at_pearson_airport_all_day.html

Aparently a WG aircraft got caught by Mr Murphy and the crew and pax were stuck for close to 13 hours on the plane in YYZ due to some mechanical issues and deice issues all cause by the snow in YYZ yesterday.

Must have sucked...


DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
153 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 21461 times:

Does Canada have a Pax bill of rights? This is absolutely heinous to allow this to happen.


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 21439 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):

Hold on, the airline did what it could

"At about 10:30 a.m., the cabin crew had handed out water and granola bars — the only refreshments available."

"“No food, no water, except for two packages each, at four-hour intervals, of corn chips, and one half glass of water,” passenger Sherry Tamilia told the Star."

Whats wrong with that? They are not a supermarket, the article says the plane couldnt return to gate because none were available. The aircraft had ice build ups on the cowlings. What should they do? Disembark on the tarmac?

Lets be realistic here.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21320 times:

Quoting zkokq (Reply 2):
Hold on, the airline did what it could

They could've just brought them back to the terminal until the queues died down a bit.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21246 times:

Quoting zkokq (Reply 2):

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):

Hold on, the airline did what it could

"At about 10:30 a.m., the cabin crew had handed out water and granola bars — the only refreshments available."

"“No food, no water, except for two packages each, at four-hour intervals, of corn chips, and one half glass of water,” passenger Sherry Tamilia told the Star."

Whats wrong with that? They are not a supermarket, the article says the plane couldnt return to gate because none were available. The aircraft had ice build ups on the cowlings. What should they do? Disembark on the tarmac?

Lets be realistic here.

They should have been brought back to the terminal using all those old buses they have parked that use to transport people to the midfield terminal. Water and granola bars, well that just doesn't cut it. I thought that WG would have more sense then that.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21167 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
They could've just brought them back to the terminal until the queues died down a bit.
Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):

They should have been brought back to the terminal using all those old buses they have parked that use to transport people to the midfield terminal. Water and granola bars, well that just doesn't cut it. I thought that WG would have more sense then that.

Oh yeah of course! During a snow storm, when ops are limited.

Why didnt I think of that......?

And if you're going to blame WG, surely the airfield should take responsibility too. After all, they run ops.

[Edited 2013-02-09 21:10:32]

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10393 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21099 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
They could've just brought them back to the terminal until the queues died down a bit.

How did you miss this, in the post above yours??

Quoting zkokq (Reply 2):
the article says the plane couldnt return to gate because none were available.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinebakersdozen From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21084 times:

After 12 hours on the ground there'd probably be a good case for being held against your will... And a good excuse to pull the emergency chute and settle it in court. Can add the safety issue of crews timing out into the argument as well... As im sure they knew they couldnt fly after what the 8th hour? Someone should have got a staircase there to deplane at minimum.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 20828 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 6):
How did you miss this, in the post above yours??

Quoting zkokq (Reply 2):
the article says the plane couldnt return to gate because none were available.

There is no excuse for not being able to de-plane pax in case of a delay. Honestly, they could've deplaned on airstairs and bussed back to the terminal.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 20796 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 8):

And how does one propose that happens when there are things going on like de-icing, planes moving AND a SNOW STORM?


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 20766 times:

Quoting zkokq (Reply 9):
And how does one propose that happens when there are things going on like de-icing, planes moving AND a SNOW STORM?

the plane was on the ground for THIRTEEN hours. Plenty of time for the plane to get into an area for de-planing.

The longest flight I've been on was 12 hours. On a 747.

A 738 sitting on the ground for 13 hours during a snowstorm.... that's worse. Especially since the galleys can't get fired up. Holy crap guys there's seriously no excuse.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 20604 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

I understand no gates were available but for 13 hours? That means no gates were ever free the entire time to move an aircraft to deboard. I'm sure there were plenty of planes just sitting there that could have been moved. Even getting airstairs and busses could have done the trick. Things get busy and I know there was a snowstorm but there is no excuse for this. I understand 2 or 3 hours, but 13? That is beyond excessive. Especially at a time when ops were very limited.
Pat



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 20434 times:

Quoting zkokq (Reply 2):
the article says the plane couldnt return to gate because none were available.

Actually, they did go back to a gate to clear ice off the engine cowlings. At that point, it should have been obvious that it was going to be a while before they could get off the ground, and that the airline didn't have appropriate provisions on the plane to wait out the time on the ground (they're an LCC, so that's understandable, but then you have to adjust how you deal with delays). And even if they couldn't get the passengers directly into the terminal because of customs issues, it should have been easy to get some stairs to get them off the plane and some buses to get them to a terminal where they actually could get off. That was the time to get the passengers off, since it was clear the airport didn't have the resources to deal with the snowfall and the airplane didn't have the supplies to properly take care of the people during the inevitable extended ground sit.

I'm not a fan of the three hour rule, and if this were five or six hours I'd grudgingly accept it. But thirteen hours? That's too much.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 563 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 20093 times:

There is absolutely no way that there were no gates for 13 hours. Someone is going to pay dearly for this one.

User currently offlineDogbreath From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 19975 times:

This is so entertaining reading posts from those not involved with aviation and their outrage at some airline's misfortune with a major weather event. Like this is some conspiracy by the crew and airline against their passengers. Come on people. I imagine some of you must have an image of the flightcrew doing high fives in the flightdeck, that they're stuck in an ever worsening scenario that is preventing them doing their jobs of 'safely' getting their passengers to destination. That they are getting some perverse pleasure in entombing their pax for hours and hours. I'd be surprised if they weren't working overtime to solve the many issues thrown up yesterday.

Of course 13 hours is an incredible ground delay, but did some of you even read the article? This flight was beset by a number of delays all caused by a major weather, and safety must always come first. Would some of you be happy for the aircraft to depart with ice and snow on the wings, engine cowlings, brakes. Surely not!

I've been in similar situations a number of times in my career and it's not an easy time. These situations are extremely dynamic and frustrating for all concerned (not just the passengers). I certainly don't enjoy sitting on my arse for 2 or 3 hours waiting for a CTOT on a remote stand, which happens from time to time here in Europe.

Also it's not that easy to negotiate to return to the gate. This flight was an international flight with passengers cleared by customs. The airport authorities who incidentally make that decision (not the airline or pilots), are very reluctant to have cleared pax returned to the terminal. It's bad enough if the flight is domestic let alone international.
I recently sat in Greece for 6 hours waiting for a start-up clearance (due to a snap Greek ATC strike). I asked for the pax to be returned to the terminal, but the local authorities refused as it was full of other pax on other delayed flights that hadn't even arrived yet.

Blaming the crew and airline is just pure ignorance.



Truth, Honour, Loyalty
User currently offlinenazgul From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2012, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 19947 times:

Oh sob sob - you only got a granola bar! I feel sorry for the cabin/flight crew though :-P

User currently offlineasctty From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 19944 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):

Hold on, the airline did what it could

"At about 10:30 a.m., the cabin crew had handed out water and granola bars — the only refreshments available."

"“No food, no water, except for two packages each, at four-hour intervals, of corn chips, and one half glass of water,” passenger Sherry Tamilia told the Star."

Whats wrong with that? They are not a supermarket, the article says the plane couldnt return to gate because none were available. The aircraft had ice build ups on the cowlings. What should they do? Disembark on the tarmac?

Lets be realistic here.

Yeah. let's be realistic. No way should PAX be kept on a plane for so long. Both the airline and the airport are at fault here. Even if the plane was allowed to depart, the crew would have been out on hours surely? And no, the plane is not a supermarket, but it is supposed to be a pleasant place to travel.


User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 19901 times:

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 14):

That is all fine and dandy, but we are talking thirteen hours. If you cannot arrange for the pax to be offloaded in that amount of time, it is not weather, it is not conspiracy, it is not external problems, it is plain old total incompetence bordering with criminal negligence.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 19903 times:

Quoting asctty (Reply 16):
Yeah. let's be realistic. No way should PAX be kept on a plane for so long. Both the airline and the airport are at fault here. Even if the plane was allowed to depart, the crew would have been out on hours surely? And no, the plane is not a supermarket, but it is supposed to be a pleasant place to travel.

I dont think there would have been any airport that would have allowed them back, because they had cleared customs. Otherwise I am sure it would have been done.

I bet the crew was as uncomfortable as the pax, so why would they want to be there any longer than they had too.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 19687 times:

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 14):
I certainly don't enjoy sitting on my arse for 2 or 3 hours waiting for a CTOT on a remote stand, which happens from time to time here in Europe.

There's 2 or 3 hours, and then there's 13. There's a huge difference between the two.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 18):
I dont think there would have been any airport that would have allowed them back, because they had cleared customs. Otherwise I am sure it would have been done.

Not buying it. Let's say the weather wasn't an issue, but the plane had encountered a mechanical problem on its way to the runway and couldn't depart. Are you suggesting that the passengers would be kept on the plane for as long as it took to fix the problem, even for a day or two if the plane had to be taken out of service? And if not, then there's no reason that accommodations couldn't have also been made for this situation.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineasctty From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 19684 times:

Quoting zkokq (Reply 18):
Quoting asctty (Reply 16):
Yeah. let's be realistic. No way should PAX be kept on a plane for so long. Both the airline and the airport are at fault here. Even if the plane was allowed to depart, the crew would have been out on hours surely? And no, the plane is not a supermarket, but it is supposed to be a pleasant place to travel.

I don't think there would have been any airport that would have allowed them back, because they had cleared customs. Otherwise I am sure it would have been done.

I bet the crew was as uncomfortable as the pax, so why would they want to be there any longer than they had too.

They wouldn't have had to go through customs as that is before the gate. All they had to do was get the PAX inside the building and give them access to some decent amenities. It's called customer service.

BTW, does anyone know how long the intended flight was supposed to be?


User currently offlineDogbreath From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 19660 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 17):
That is all fine and dandy, but we are talking thirteen hours.
Quoting Fabo (Reply 17):
criminal negligence.

OK then. So for my understanding of the law, can you please inform us of what is the cutoff before we start talking criminal negligence? Is it 4 hours, 6 hours, or what is it?

Quoting asctty (Reply 16):
Even if the plane was allowed to depart, the crew would have been out on hours surely?

If it was a standard crew you are right, they'd have been out of hours. But we don't have enough facts here. Was the crew augmented? Did the aircraft indeed get back to a gate or have transport to allow a fresh crew onboard? Maybe the pax were asked at that time if any wanted to get off the flight and cancel their holiday? Maybe most decided to remain onboard and get the hell of winter and onto the sun baked beaches for their holidays?

Quoting zkokq (Reply 18):
I bet the crew was as uncomfortable as the pax, so why would they want to be there any longer than they had too.

Absolutely 100% correct.



Truth, Honour, Loyalty
User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 19615 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
Not buying it. Let's say the weather wasn't an issue, but the plane had encountered a mechanical problem on its way to the runway and couldn't depart. Are you suggesting that the passengers would be kept on the plane for as long as it took to fix the problem, even for a day or two if the plane had to be taken out of service? And if not, then there's no reason that accommodations couldn't have also been made for this situation.

If there wasn't a blizzard, then there is no issue IMO


User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1081 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 19601 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

To be fair as well YYZ was totally gridlocked. From the advisories that day...

CTL ELEMENT: CYYZ
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1811Z
GROUND STOP PERIOD: 08/1700Z - 08/1930Z
DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED: (2ndTier) CZM CZU ZAU ZMP ZID CZY ZBW ZOB
ZDC ZNY
PREVIOUS TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 400 / 70 / 22
NEW TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 1368 / 130 / 76
PROBABILITY OF EXTENSION: MEDIUM
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / SNOW-ICE
COMMENTS: SNOW CONTINUES AND CYYZ IS APPROACHING GRIDLOCK.
081811-082030



And later

CTL ELEMENT: CYYZ
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 2025Z
GROUND STOP PERIOD: 08/1800Z - 08/2230Z
DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED: ALL
PREVIOUS TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 0 / 0 / 0
NEW TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 1068 / 129 / 76
PROBABILITY OF EXTENSION: MEDIUM
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / SNOW-ICE
COMMENTS: AIRPORT IS GRIDLOCKED - NO PARKING SPOTS AVAILABLE
082028-082330


Finally

CTL ELEMENT: CYYZ
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 2332Z
GROUND STOP PERIOD: 08/1800Z - 09/0100Z
DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED: (2ndTier) CZM CZU ZAU ZMP ZID CZY ZBW ZOB
ZDC ZNY
PREVIOUS TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 0 / 0 / 0
NEW TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 0 / 0 / 0
PROBABILITY OF EXTENSION: MEDIUM
IMPACTING CONDITION: WEATHER / SNOW-ICE
COMMENTS: SCOPE REDUCED TO TIER 2
082339-090200


Flights were taking 4+ hours to deice. They could only deice 8 aircraft per hour. Thus they could only land 8 flights per hour when gridlocked. A sharp reduction from the normal 56 arrival rate.



DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 19499 times:

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 21):
If it was a standard crew you are right, they'd have been out of hours. But we don't have enough facts here. Was the crew augmented? Did the aircraft indeed get back to a gate or have transport to allow a fresh crew onboard?

All those questions are answered in the article.

No the crew was not augmented. Yes the aircraft did eventually make it back to a gate to get a new crew and the passengers were let off at that point. That still does not excuse sitting on the ground for 13 hours before even getting back to a gate (the flight eventually departed 17 hours behind schedule - this would be a non-issue if the passengers had been waiting in the terminal for the vast majority of the day instead of on the plane, and they would likely have gotten to their vacations at exactly the same time).

Quoting zkokq (Reply 22):
If there wasn't a blizzard, then there is no issue IMO

Why should a blizzard make any difference at all as to whether you can let international departing passengers off a plane after they have cleared customs?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
25 YYZatcboy : Because the gate was a US pre clear gate. You can't have pax mingle so you can't let them off.[Edited 2013-02-10 03:26:27]
26 zkokq : If the airport is at a stand still, then you want to let people out onto the tarmac that could potentially be hurt? Safer on board.
27 Mir : Again, if the plane had had a mechanical, would they have kept the passengers on the plane until it was fixed no matter how long it took (perhaps ove
28 zkokq : The airport was at a stand still. You cant force 2 planes into one gate. And they wanted toi guarantee the safety of their passengers crew and ground
29 Dogbreath : There's a big difference between a maintenance delay and a weather delay. As you quite correctly point out a maintenance delay could mean an aircraft
30 jcwr56 : I'd really love to know if anyone even talked with the U.S CPD chief on duty to see if an exception could be made. In this regards common sense over
31 zkokq : So you think it was just a normal snow sprinkling? There was meters of snow in some places the news said. That's a challenge I think, considering it
32 Mir : They didn't have to. They had a gate available on which to park the plane (and park they did). If they can't let the passengers into that part of the
33 MEA-707 : But I am sure they can guard the passengers towards the departure area again so they don't enter Canada or leave the US cleared space, then they don'
34 ltbewr : I bet some politicians in Canada, as done here in the USA after some major winter storm delay holds, will put in new laws or require improvements in c
35 Dogbreath : The advisories, such as Airport approaching gridlock, airport is gridlocked no parking spaces available, says it all. But I suppose for some us on he
36 Mir : Which isn't necessarily better than taking huge delays. Let's say that the plane had come back to the stand at 1030 as it did, and then had to wait a
37 transaeroyyz : What about cracking out the champagne and wine, they need something to wash down those canola bars! Then nap time..
38 Crj 900 : Ok and so at my previous job, I once worked a flight from YVR-AMS and our aircraft had a mechanical issue and returned to the gate and the flight was
39 jcwr56 : We're not talking about Brisbane, Perth, London, LA, Miami here...we're talking about a major Candanian city that sees snow and usually prepares for
40 brilondon : The flight was boarded at 0630 for a 0700 departure. Why was the aircraft allowed to leave the gate if it had mechanical issues? The above occurred ro
41 ABQopsHP : Thank you, thank you, thank you, so much! People need to realize, that those of us directly involved in airport/aircraft operations do not like this
42 jcwr56 : The difference is, they are being paid to be out there doing a job, being told not to work (and by the way getting paid) yet those folks in the a/c h
43 Post contains images mcoatc : And if an aircraft had slid off a snowy runway and the passengers needed to be bussed back to the terminal, who would have driven those buses? I guar
44 F9animal : The captain should have raised absolute hell, and demanded a resolution to get passengers off the plane. I cant believe anyone would knowingly allow t
45 hoons90 : Canadian airports don't have border exit controls on international departures, so you do not go through customs at YYZ when you depart for an interna
46 aerorobnz : In most major airports non-essential ramp movements are restricted in snowstorms and other visibility reduced conditions so 'Just bussing them off the
47 HiFlyerAS : I've worked for a major for 30 years...there's no way a 13 hour hostage situation in this day and age should occur with the focus on this sort of thin
48 hoons90 : That's right. Swissport handles both above and below-wing ground operations for Sunwing.
49 thenoflyzone : "While the 17-hour delay was agonizing, McWilliams said Sunwing has a policy of not cancelling flights, even during long delays." wrong policy, pure a
50 Gr8Circle : There was a monster snowstorm raging acrtoss Toronto that day......conditions were very, very bad......
51 cmf : This is another example of how the aviation industry is failing to apply common sense. I have no issue with passengers having to stay on board for man
52 tribird1011 : I fail to see the relevance here, or are you implying that if they did their own ground handling the flight would have departed on time? One other th
53 heathrow : Have been having lots of issues in all stations. Had a 14 hour delay on a WG flight in to YOW over the past 2 days (I want to say Friday night/ Saturd
54 Post contains images mayor : This, from a person that has obviously never worked on the ramp, let alone during a major snowstorm I think that WG should have cut their losses and
55 longhauler : I don't think people realize how bad the weather was. And, looking at the chain of events, I can see how this can happen. There were many issues in pl
56 Gr8Circle : Someone please post some pics of the storm on Friday, so that our armchair ciritcs get an idea of what things were like that day......on the open airp
57 Post contains images heathrow : We experienced the same weather front, slightly less severe at YOW and it was quite the storm. All UA flights were cancelled throughout Friday night/
58 YYCSpotter : Did the aircraft ever depart?
59 HiFlyerAS : No, of course they wouldn't have left on time if things were as bad as they sounded. But if an airline has it's OWN ops people, ground crews to handl
60 sankaps : Many of those who you dismiss as "armchair critics" are actually aviation professionals, including several who actually work the ramp and have experi
61 mayor : Uh, you do know that gates are also used to LOAD the pax, correct? So you, in your scenario, you unload the plane and pull it off the gate and NOW wh
62 mayor : And some of them aren't. I believe his criticism is aimed mainly at those that are not.
63 longhauler : No. And what I think a lot of people don't understand is that the aircraft was not "waiting 13 hours" for a gate. The aircraft departed on time, with
64 AeroWesty : Right at the top of the linked story ... (My bolding.) Helps to read the links provided!
65 Kaiarahi : Careful - that's a respected member. As a pilot, he likely read the question as did they (that crew with that plane and those pax depart). And the an
66 hOmsar : I find it interesting that a lot of people are making excuses about customs and border control being the reason, yet nowhere in the article does it me
67 pliersinsight : Of the 71 above replies, I think these two hit the mark. The PIC has the authority and the responsibility associated with the flight from second one.
68 AeroWesty : The question being answered by the post in question was:
69 cmf : Since we apparently should do this in a disrespectful way. You do know what happens if you load 30 planes per hour but only 8 can be deiced, correct?
70 Post contains images mcoatc : Longhauler, your background and knowledge on this site are well respected and documented, and I'm certainly not questioning either of them. It doesn'
71 longhauler : When people start arguing semantics, I just shrug and move on, as it adds nothing to the thread. However, with regard to that question, I read it dif
72 mayor : And then, you've made the problem worse by clogging up the ramp area with empty a/c and there's your terminal full of pax, looking out the windows an
73 Maverick623 : Going on 7 years working the ramp... and you're not gonna like what I have to say about this. Conspiracy? Nope... just pure and simple incompetence.
74 PA727 : Don't have a dog in this fight, and I certainly wasn't there, so I can't speak to the realities of the situation. My thoughts are more general in natu
75 copter808 : This is also one more example of "Not my fault" on the passenger's side. Shouldn't they have some responsibility? After all, this storm just suddenly
76 XT6Wagon : You do know that people have gotten decades in prison for less than 12hrs of holding someone against their will. Just because its an airline doesn't
77 longhauler : And that is what caused the problem ... snow. From the time the decision to return to the gate was made, until they arrived at the gate appears to be
78 bond007 : That is really all that needs to be said! It really does not require ANY knowledge of the aviation industry to see that is a totally unacceptable sit
79 longhauler : Respectfully ... did you read the previous 85 posts? I'll run the time-line by you, as best as I can piece together from the press, the report filed,
80 mayor : But someone that DOES (or should have, in your case) would realize how quickly and easily things can go south on the ramp. If I didn't know better, I
81 bond007 : Yes. At almost all of those times you specify, they could have chosen not to continue the flight. At 0700 they already know the pax will be on the gr
82 Polot : Except that is the airline's fault. They are the ones who didn't cancel the flight. They are the ones who decided to board the flight. They are the o
83 A346Dude : I appreciate your contribution to the thread but according to Environment Canada, YYZ got less than 25cm that day and the max gust was only 50km/hr.
84 hOmsar : Responsibility for what? Knowing that they'd be stuck on the plane for hours once they boarded, or risk forfeiting their tickets if they decide not t
85 longhauler : I get what you are saying ... not so sure about the shorts thing ... but I was only going by what ended up in my driveway, and the pictures of YYZ de
86 CuriousFlyer : Absolutely not acceptable. No way this airline should not pay more than the $150 vouchers they gave. If I was a passenger I would sue for the incompet
87 longhauler : Looks like the edit function is not working, I'll try this again. (I always chuckle about what appears when one tries to edit) It really was just a no
88 longhauler : No they didn't know that until they were already in the de-icing line. At the start of push-back and taxi, they assumed things were normal, which is
89 cmf : Is it? How?
90 YVRLTN : According to the radio ads here in YVR, one is promised full service complete with champagne and hot towels on WG. Hardly LCC. Exactly, no other pax
91 Mir : But they did get a gate initially. A US pre-clearance gate, but it was a gate, and even if you can't let people off into the terminal directly, you c
92 JoeCanuck : 13 hours is inexcusable...full stop. It only takes a half an hour to deplane all the passengers...at the very most. Unload a plane, clear a gate and p
93 mayor : And it was only ONE flight, from what I gather. That particular flight, had just the right type of problems and circumstances surrounding it for this
94 longhauler : I see what you mean, but ... at that point in time, they still had a workable operation, even with another 3 hour delay for de-icing. Not ideal, but
95 yowviewer : Tolerable to a point maybe. There were other horror stories that day I'm sure - we just haven't heard about them.Take the inbound Emirates flight fro
96 JAGflyer : It never amazes me how many passengers decide they have to wear shorts and t-shirts either into or out of Canada when going on vacation. They then rem
97 mayor : I have an experience similar to that........back before '85, when DL just had a small op at SLC, we had a 767 divert into SLC because DEN (Stapleton)
98 longhauler : Taxiing on one engine when the taxiways are slippery would be very difficult. It is recommended to run both engines. Because of possible duty free pu
99 slowroll : This basically seemed to be the way they were doing it the other morning at SLC. However, I believe they had at least 4 lines going (each with two de
100 YVRLTN : Only... which is inexcusable after almost 10 hours already and is the issue here, I am very sure someone somewhere could and should have pulled some
101 ouboy79 : Held on board an aircraft, on the ground, for 13 hours is just ridiculous and no excuses can cover it up. If it exposes flaws in the system, then they
102 Polot : Its not just about how long they were on the plane. It is about how long they were on the plane versus expected to be on the plane. DXB-YYZ is a 14 h
103 mjoelnir : Perhaps I do not enough about ground operations, but I do blame the Airport. I already read that it was not 13 hours but only 12.20 what a difference.
104 madviking : Pearson has what is know as the "Infield Terminal" that has 11 gates capable of parking a variety of wide body and narrow body aircraft. It was used e
105 Mir : If there really were only 8 planes per hour being deiced and the line was as long as the article says it was (or even somewhat shorter), it wasn't go
106 mayor : Well, during the time I mentioned, we only had one line set up......this was the first winter after the DL/WA merger........maintenance did the de-ic
107 StarAC17 : WG operates out of T1 so couldn't they make sure that the passengers at a US gate which is no different from an international gate in terms of arriva
108 jjsilver : I have not read it discussed that there were 5 police officers involved at some point when the airline read a statement. I am assuming this is to the
109 JA : Dogbreath and Longhauler, let me point out something to you as an armchair QB. I run a ground transportation business that transports people. Every ti
110 longhauler : That's the problem ... the line never "dies down" you either get in it, or go home. (I have spent many hours in the de-icing line). I think this thre
111 ouboy79 : Yeah, until you tell them they will be sealed in a metal tube on the ground for 13 hours. Try to sell that to them and you'll get a deserved punch in
112 JA : That is the thing with hauling people. Simply put, they don't usually care about the effort. They expect you to perform as advertised and if you can'
113 mayor : Unfortunately, in a weather event such as this, there are often NO alternate arrangements available and the pax often don't understand that. I'm remi
114 JAAlbert : Good grief, it's not like critics are demanding the airline fly the passengers to the moon or something equally impossible. The passengers needed off
115 Mir : Except that in this case, it did die down - if the article is to be believed, when they departed that evening the de-ice line wasn't that long. -Mir
116 mayor : I doubt if that was predictable, though.
117 DocLightning : Yes. They should have been disembarked on the tarmac and bussed back to the terminal.
118 Mir : Logic would say that if you wait long enough, any line will eventually dissipate. That's especially true as the day goes on, as many flights cancel,
119 zkokq : In the snow storm? You're crazy.
120 Post contains images Kaiarahi : It was considered too dangerous (snow + wind + ice - windchill was around -30C) to cater the aircraft. Having pax use MX airstairs would have been an
121 mjoelnir : I do not understand the guys finding more and more excuses for keeping Passengers for more than 12 hours on an air-plane on a airport. The reason for
122 ouboy79 : When you don't have a solution and refuse to take responsibility for someone, you make up an excuse. Human nature.
123 xero9 : Is this the satellite terminal that's on the east most side of the field by the 427?
124 Mir : That there would be no way to get people from buses to the sterile side of the terminal would seem to be quite a design flaw. But if that's really th
125 bueb0g : Given the wind, snow, and ice, this was not possible. It would have been too dangerous to move airstairs up to the a/c. Sure, if you can get them off
126 sankaps : Exactly! And it appears this was the only flight that held its pax captive for such an extended period. Which, together with the VP's statement that
127 mayor : Apparently, WG didn't have the infrastructure at the airport to take care of problems like this.
128 Mir : And as I've mentioned several times, they were at a gate after they returned from the de-ice line the first time. -Mir
129 sankaps : Exactly! Therefore it was an operational contingency planning and decision making failure at *one* airline. And for that they are responsible and hea
130 mayor : And all my posts (as well as posts of others) ,though they may seemed to be "excuses" , were just pointing out how quickly things can go south in sit
131 brilondon : You are an apologist for a failed system that was not up to snuff when it was needed. Generally, the system works well, but obviously like the city i
132 Viscount724 : Tried to edit reply 131 to correct a minor typo and it became seriously corrupted with much of the text disappearing. That happens frequently and is v
133 Post contains links and images Stratofish : I have read most repelies though not all of them... so please bear if this has been posted already: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...3/02/09/to
134 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Yep, the airline needs to make sure that snow + wind = blizzard doesn't happen. Will they? We'll see. YYZ doesn't have remote stands for embarking/de
135 sankaps : Yes we will. And the airline will likely face civil penalties / fines. And that is the key difference. Of course delays happen in adverse weather sit
136 Kaiarahi : And the result of that is vastly increased flight cancellations, so that the airlines don't risk getting close to a penalty situation. Under what sta
137 sankaps : Yup. I think most passengers would prefer that to being held against their will on an aircraft on the ground for 13 hours with insufficient food and
138 Viscount724 : It's Sunwing (not Sunwind). I think you're wrong. Reports I've seen indicate that most passengers are happy with their service. They've been giving A
139 Mir : Or just only let 8 aircraft per hour taxi out. Those airlines that don't want to keep people waiting around all day or just can't logistically do it
140 JAGflyer : Back when the IFT was in use, passengers were bussed to the terminal. There are doors which passengers could enter/exit through one floor below the de
141 Fly2yyz : They will be around because of their enormous financial backing from Sunwings part European owners TUI.
142 sankaps : It is interesting that apparently it was too dangerous for buses or stairs to be used because of the weather, yet mechanics and ground workers were a
143 longhauler : Given that just about everything that could happen, did happen, it is very unlikely the same set of circumstances would occur again in the same seque
144 Mir : So it would seem that stairs could be pulled up to the plane in the shelter of the terminal as well. -Mir
145 sankaps : Exactly. If that is what the airline's ops people wanted to have done, or if the flight crew demanded it be done, it could have been done. Just poor
146 mayor : It's all 20/20 hindsight on here, especially from those that have never worked the ramp or operations, especially in adverse conditions. It's not exc
147 sankaps : I fully agree Mayor. I don't think most people think it is the fault of the ramp or ground staff at all. I think we are all saying it was a policy an
148 longhauler : I imagine that just about everyone in Sunwing is under scrutiny right now, and every decision right from the very beginning .... starting with, how m
149 Kaiarahi : Lessons learned are more productive. If you fire everyone who makes a mistake or error in judgement, no lessons are ever learned. Interestingly, ther
150 XT6Wagon : in a hurry? 13 hours says no hurry was found. most troubling is the time it took from when the flight was cancled till the time passengers were offlo
151 mayor : This statement would seem to dispute what was mentioned about this storm, earlier, that this was just a run of the mill, midwinter snowstorm.
152 longhauler : One thing I have noticed with winter operations, is that when the airport is working smoothly, and it usually is, the issue is not air-side, but land
153 sankaps : There are mistakes, and there is gross incompetence bordering on serious negligence. I think this situation falls into the latter category. Though I
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